Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[Hades]

I remember in Dennis the Menace a pressure group was saying "we want something to protest about", and "equal representation in media!" does strike me as something in that vein. and shoehorning character archetypes just to fill quotas isn't a good idea.

[Rocketman]

Yeah, it's only a slight majority so I think it's a bit disingenuous to go around repeating it like it's the most relevant point to be made.

It's a pretty good point when women go from 51% of the real world to ~30% of movie characters (and those characters don't talk to each other).

[ABED]

Do you sit there counting?

And why does it matter if two women characters don't talk with each other? If anything, you'd think it's a better sign that a female and male character interact without it being in any way sexual or romantic.

No, The Hobbit didn't need Turiel. The book itself isn't very dense, and stretching it out to 3 films is overkill, so adding a female character (even a badass one) added very little.

[Rocketman]

Do you sit there counting?

Yeah, sometimes.

And why does it matter if two women characters don't talk with each other?

If you don't think it matters that half of the human race is silenced, there's nothing I can say that will convince you.

[qjz123]

And why does it matter if two women characters don't talk with each other?

If you don't think it matters that half of the human race is silenced, there's nothing I can say that will convince you.

They aren't being silenced certain content creators would just rather write more men characters than women characters and if that's what they want to do than it's their prerogative, it's their work of art, no one can make them do what they don't want to do. Even if you think it's unfair it doesn't matter a content creator has the freedom to do what ever he/she want to do with their own creation.

[Rocketman]

They aren't being silenced certain content creators would just rather write more men characters than women characters

Why?

People do not exist in a vaccuum. "Just rather" is not all alone, but the result of societal conditioning.

[qjz123]

They aren't being silenced certain content creators would just rather write more men characters than women characters

Why?

People do not exist in a vaccuum. "Just rather" is not all alone, but the result of societal conditioning.

So your saying an author who likes writing male characters more than female characters is the result of societal conditioning rather than them just wanting to write more male characters? Well good luck with that… I don't understand where your going with this, a story doesn't have to equally represent anyone all a story has to do is what the author wants it to do. If a content creator decides that their work is gonna consist of 80% men and 20% women or vice versa than that is their propagative if people support it than obviously they're doing something write. You can't tell a content creator what to do with their own story that would be taking away their freedom as an artist.

[Rocketman]

Well good luck with that… I don't understand where your going with this, a story doesn't have to equally represent anyone all a story has to do is what the author wants it to do. If a content creator decides that their work is gonna consist of 80% men and 20% women or vice versa than that is their propagative if people support it than obviously they're doing something write. You can't tell a content creator what to do with their own story that would be taking away their freedom as an artist.

Why does everybody on this god damn board have such a problem with distinguishing individual vs collective.

For the xth time, each individual story is well within its rights to do whatever it wants. The problem is that ALL OF THEM have mysteriously "just so happened" to not have female characters talking.

[ABED]

If you don't think it matters that half of the human race is silenced, there's nothing I can say that will convince you.

No one said anything about being silenced, simply that I don't understand how it's an issue that two females don't interact. The women can and should be integral to the story and can interact with plenty of characters. I'm just not sure why not interacting with another woman is a negative.

And if you are sitting there counting women and minorities, isn't the issue that the story isn't keeping your interest?

[Saiga]

But the only way to change a collective is to change the individual stories within. So if you're saying the collective can't be that way, it's not much different from saying individual stories can't either.

[Zephyr]

The problem is that ALL OF THEM have mysteriously "just so happened" to not have female characters talking.

Allow me to ask, why exactly is that a problem? It's entertainment. I think the point being made earlier about this being a "first world problem" is entirely relevant in that it questions the very importance of the concern. Societies will condition themselves other one way or another. Whether they develop a collective preference for the increased or decreased representation of fictional characters that are based on different specific groups of people is certainly measurable, but are the results important, in any meaningful capacity beyond entertainment?

To which I would be replied "the entertainment industry does not exist in a vacuum". Which is true. Our entertainment we are provided with, the living conditions we have, world conflicts, etc all bounce off of each other to create the social-political reality we inhabit. Sometimes they mesh in a certain combination that skews reality away from the ideal philosophical scenario in which we are all on equal standing. The implication here is that to allow or cause other individuals of the moral community harm that you yourself would not wish to have befall you is bad or immoral.

I would then bring up the idea of "moral relativism", and the subjective nature of morality. If morality is subjective, then all moral ideologies are (within reason) equally valid and permissible. And yet, the very idea of "everyone is fine to do their own thing" feels largely inspired by the aforementioned idea of "never do something to another that you wouldn't want done to you". The reason we accept other moral communities' ethical codes as valid is because we would not want another moral community to treat ours as invalid.

That's the overview of the overall argument here I'm seeing. The golden rule holds a great amount of weight and precedence here, simply because the idea of "people should be allowed to do what they want, and have an equal footing in society" is the logical consequence of it. I could next starting rationalizing the difference between the freedom to do what one wants vs the freedom to have equal footing in society, and how Hades' camp seems to be more interested in the preservation of the former, while Rocketman's camp seems moreso in that of the latter. Both are strong in their own right, but what makes one more strong than the other? I hope that didn't sound like I was suggesting making Battle Power lists for different arguments.

[Rocketman]

No one said anything about being silenced, simply that I don't understand how it's an issue that two females don't interact. The women can and should be integral to the story and can interact with plenty of characters. I'm just not sure why not interacting with another woman is a negative.

Because it doesn't happen consistently across damn near all media. Because very often there is only one Token Female and a hojillion dudes. Because male characters get to have conversations that don't involve women at all.

The reverse of the Bechdel Test is not "hurr men not talking about sports/beer/etc/etc", it's:

1. Two male characters
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something other than a woman.

If you can find a movie that doesn't pass that test, I'd be impressed (ignoring, for the sake of warding off pendantry, movies with only 1 character). Why is there such an incredible imbalance here?

[ABED]

No one said anything about being silenced, simply that I don't understand how it's an issue that two females don't interact. The women can and should be integral to the story and can interact with plenty of characters. I'm just not sure why not interacting with another woman is a negative.

Because it doesn't happen consistently across damn near all media. Because very often there is only one Token Female and a hojillion dudes. Because male characters get to have conversations that don't involve women at all.

The reverse of the Bechdel Test is not "hurr men not talking about sports/beer/etc/etc", it's:

1. Two male characters
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something other than a woman.

If you can find a movie that doesn't pass that test, I'd be impressed (ignoring, for the sake of warding off pendantry, movies with only 1 character). Why is there such an incredible imbalance here?

I still don't get your point other than female characters must do every single thing in equal degree as male characters or it's sexism! Why do Bulma and Chichi need to talk to each other?

The problem isn't there isn't only one female, it's that they are a TOKEN character, meaning they are typically bland. If they are great female characters, it shouldn't matter who they are talking to.

Dude, just enjoy stuff and get off the pulpit.

Bridesmaids was great, not because it was a primarily female cast, but because it was FUNNY. That's what matters, not whether the actors have two X chromosomes. The quality of the story and characters is all that should matter.

[Insertclevername]

I still don't get your point other than female characters must do every single thing in equal degree as male characters or it's sexism! Why do Bulma and Chichi need to talk to each other?

The problem isn't there isn't only one female, it's that they are a TOKEN character, meaning they are typically bland. If they are great female characters, it shouldn't matter who they are talking to.

Dude, just enjoy stuff and get off the pulpit.

Bridesmaids was great, not because it was a primarily female cast, but because it was FUNNY. That's what matters, not whether the actors have two X chromosomes. The quality of the story and characters is all that should matter.

I think your intentions are good and you make a fine argument; I just can't help but agree with Rocketman. I think his point has a lot of merit since it's an undeniable trend that females tend to not be properly represented in media. While I think that adding females into a story for the sake of diversity is essentially doing a bad thing for a good reason, I still feel our society is too male driven as far how we envision our lead roles. This may be in part of how we tend to be ambiguous as far as male roles go; while women are usually stereotyped in a few specific roles.

While I wish I could wholeheartedly agree with your statement of how "the quality of the story and characters is all that should matter", it just simply isn't. Stories have proved to have a huge impact on society, so it's treatment of specific genders, races, sexualities, etc, matter just as much as the merits of it's craftsmanship. This is especially true with children's shows as children are far more impressionable.

[garnetjester]

I still don't get your point other than female characters must do every single thing in equal degree as male characters or it's sexism! Why do Bulma and Chichi need to talk to each other?

The problem isn't there isn't only one female, it's that they are a TOKEN character, meaning they are typically bland. If they are great female characters, it shouldn't matter who they are talking to.

Dude, just enjoy stuff and get off the pulpit.

Bridesmaids was great, not because it was a primarily female cast, but because it was FUNNY. That's what matters, not whether the actors have two X chromosomes. The quality of the story and characters is all that should matter.

Like Rocketman said, it doesn't matter to an individual story if every character is male, white and straight. However, when you put all of the stories together and they add up to that it's problematic, because tons of people don't fit that description.

The point about women not talking to each other in film simply highlights the fact that writers don't even bother fleshing out a female character, because all she has to do to be useful is just stand behind her man or pine for her preferred guy, or if there are 2 women, have a catfight because they crave a guy's attention. It's problematic not because women should always be talking to each other, but because the fact that they can't even do something as basic as having any kind of conversation between them that is NOT about a man is an indicator that writers don't care at all other than to fit the "mother or love interest" default role for a woman.

I don't think that unless the main character is female everything is sexist, but I do think that the general trend is telling because of comments like "Wonder woman won't get a movie because nobody would watch it" or Marvel's making a movie about some obscure raccoon superhero before daring to have one with a female protagonist. Also, consider all those comments about how "Groundbreaking" it was to have Pixar work on Disney's "Brave" because it was a female main character, or how "The Hunger Games" became such a hot topic for managing to top the box office DESPITE having a female lead. The fact that all of these things are still happening it's an indicator of how women are viewed in the media. (Also, Bridesmaids was considered groundbreaking in a way too because it featured tons of women but wasn't a romantic comedy, if it was the norm to have women in diverse roles in films nobody would've batted an eyelash about it)

[ABED]

The point about women not talking to each other in film simply highlights the fact that writers don't even bother fleshing out a female character, because all she has to do to be useful is just stand behind her man or pine for her preferred guy, or if there are 2 women, have a catfight because they crave a guy's attention. It's problematic not because women should always be talking to each other, but because the fact that they can't even do something as basic as having any kind of conversation between them that is NOT about a man is an indicator that writers don't care at all other than to fit the "mother or love interest" default role for a woman.

No it doesn't. Just because a female character doesn't talk to another female character, that doesn't necessitate her only talking about a relationship. Sarah Connor barely has interactions with women and she doesn't discuss her love life; neither does Ripley. You failed to answer the question. Why are women required to talk to each other in film/TV. Bulma doesn't become a mother until deep into the story, and even then she's given stuff to do. Unfortunately the controller gets broken.

I understand that not every reader is a straight, white, male, but you don't have to be to understand what the characters are going through.

I'm sure a Wonder Woman movie can be successful but it won't be nearly as successful as male superheroes, even if it's great. I like Wonder Woman, and the DTV from DCAU was one of their best, but it didn't sell as well as many of their other titles. If there's a bias, it's not just from the writers or studios.

Stories have proved to have a huge impact on society, so it's treatment of specific genders, races, sexualities, etc, matter just as much as the merits of it's craftsmanship.

I don't know how true that statement is. Stories tend more to be reflections.

[Insertclevername]

But you couldn't you also argue that that bias only exists because of the trends set by writers?

[ABED]

But you couldn't you also argue that that bias only exists because of the trends set by writers?

Or are writers reflecting trends?

[qjz123]

But you couldn't you also argue that that bias only exists because of the trends set by writers?

Not really your not giving people enough credit, writers try to give people what they want because typically that's what sells. If male leads do better than female leads than that's what they're going to give you.

[ABED]

I love Supernatural, but the character of Bella was added as a studio mandate to get more women on the show, and unfortunately she wasn't well integrated.