The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TheGmGoken]

Freeza. While Vegeta is a better brawler and certainly no amateur in ki control, Freeza has far better techniques and a more durable body

Not to mention Vegeta hasn't mastered ki sense at this point and Freeza don't need sense.

[dbzfan7]

So I'm late to this one, but Goku says if he and Vegeta fused they'd still lose to Beerus in the directors cut. Does this count Vegetto, or does he mean just Gogeta, or in general they'd lose. Another thing is how can Goku tell that when he can't sense Beerus' ki. I always thought Beerus was above Vegetto (with some previews), but would this movie statement confirm it.

[TheGmGoken]

So I'm late to this one, but Goku says if he and Vegeta fused they'd still lose to Beerus in the directors cut. Does this count Vegetto, or does he mean just Gogeta, or in general they'd lose. Another thing is how can Goku tell that when he can't sense Beerus' ki. I always thought Beerus was above Vegetto (with some previews), but would this movie statement confirm it.

Both Gogeta and Vegetto. He can tell by how badly Beerus whooped everyone.

[RandomGuy96]

Another thing is how can Goku tell that when he can't sense Beerus' ki.

Huh... good point.

Well, add this to the pile of BOG plot holes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Another thing is how can Goku tell that when he can't sense Beerus' ki.

From their fight? How could Ginyu guess Goku's BP?

[RandomGuy96]

Except he can't Beerus' ki. All he knows is that Beerus can easily knock him out with two playful and soft hits... which characters way, way weaker than Super Vegetto, let alone Super Vegetto 3, can do.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except he can't Beerus' ki. All he knows is that Beerus can easily knock him out with two playful and soft hits... which characters way, way weaker than Super Vegetto, let alone Super Vegetto 3, can do.

From their fight? How could Ginyu guess Goku's BP?

[RandomGuy96]

Ginyu just made a guess based on the notion Goku couldn't be suppressing himself THAT much. What you're saying is that Ginyu would be able to guess that 100% Freeza has a battle power of over 100 million, without a scouter, just by getting one-shotted by a flick from 3% Freeza.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku's estimation was that Beerus was probably stronger than SS3 Vegetto. He most likely knew that Beerus was heavily suppressed (it's obvious to us, let alone to an experienced fighter like Goku), and we know that for someone to beat someone so easily has to be extremely stronger than the other. Add Kaio's comments about Beerus being the strongest in the universe, and that they wouldn't stand a chance against him no matter what in the pile of evidence. So, depending on how much power Beerus was using according to Goku's guess, and he can have an idea of Beerus power. His conclusion was that maybe they can manage something if they merge with Vegeta, but it was more likely that they would still get their asses kicked.

And are you sure that the writers had Goku sensing Beerus' power & saying what he said in their mind? BoG wasn't that inconsistent.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku's estimation was that Beerus was probably stronger than SS3 Vegetto. He most likely knew that Beerus was heavily suppressed (it's obvious to us, let alone to an experienced fighter like Goku), and we know that for someone to beat someone so easily has to be extremely stronger than the other. Add Kaio's comments about Beerus being the strongest in the universe, and that they wouldn't stand a chance against him no matter what in the pile of evidence. So, depending on how much power Beerus was using according to Goku's guess, and he can have an idea of Beerus power. His conclusion was that maybe they can manage something if they merge with Vegeta, but it was more likely that they would still get their asses kicked.

And are you sure that the writers had Goku sensing Beerus' power & saying this in their mind? BoG wasn't that inconsistent.

Kami took out Goku with one flick. Was he thousands of times stronger than Goku? Same thing here. Goku has no way of knowing how much stronger Beerus is than him, other than "a lot", which is nowhere near specific enough for him to make the estimate that he's superior to a form of a character that never existed.

I don't see why he wouldn't. Again, how the heck would Goku know how strong Beerus is (beyond "stronger than me") without sensing his ki?

Actually, yeah, it is. The whole idea of godly ki itself and the notion that it's super-special-awesome itself makes no sense, as well as the notion that it can't be sensed, as Piccolo was plainly capable of sensing Kaioshin, but can't sense Beerus, and Piccolo also says that it won't matter how much battle power Goku gets if he doesn't have godly ki.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kami took out Goku with one flick.

Forgot that one.

I don't see why he wouldn't. Again, how the heck would Goku know how strong Beerus is (beyond "stronger than me") without sensing his ki?

He saw that he was far, far stronger than him in a heavily suppressed state (obvious by Beerus' relaxed & non-serious attitude). So, if that was for example 1% of Beerus power by Goku's guess, it means that Beerus can get x100 stronger than that. And there is also Kaio's comments about Beerus being the strongest in the universe, and that they would never stand a chance against him. So, Goku's reaction was "I guess Kaio was right from the beginning, Beerus was so much stronger than me, and he was just playing around. Even if I was to merge with Vegeta, we would probably lose again."

Actually, yeah, it is. The whole idea of godly ki itself and the notion that it's super-special-awesome itself makes no sense, as well as the notion that it can't be sensed, as Piccolo was plainly capable of sensing Kaioshin, but can't sense Beerus, and Piccolo also says that it won't matter how much battle power Goku gets if he doesn't have godly ki.

The only special about godly ki is that it signifies that someone is a god (duh), and that it can't be measured. Piccolo said that no matter how strong he would get, it would never make him a god. Which is true, since battle power has nothing to do with being a god. Look at Dende.

[RandomGuy96]

And why would he estimate such a small percentage? He wouldn't even have to be twice as strong as Goku to do what he did.

Why even assume he was suppressed? Controlling battle power is supposed to be a rare ability. Aside from his own group, he's only seen a few people that can do it. Not using effort =/= suppressing.

Piccolo was saying that in the context of beating Beerus. It was a power statement.

Piccolo could sense Kaioshin's power, but not Beerus'. Inconsistency.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And why would he estimate such a small percentage?

It was a random example.

Why even assume he was suppressed? Controlling battle power is supposed to be a rare ability. Aside from his own group, he's only seen a few people that can do it. Not using effort =/= suppressing.

He is a top-tier god, why wouldn't he have that ability?

Piccolo was saying that in the context of beating Beerus. It was a power statement.

No, Piccolo said that in the context of transforming into a Super Saiyan God. It wasn't a power statement.

Piccolo could sense Kaioshin's power, but not Beerus'. Inconsistency.

Piccolo, who had merged with a god, could sense Kaioshin's power, while no one else could. I don't see the inconsistency.

[RandomGuy96]

Which in no way makes sense of how Goku was abke to read Beers power. Inconsistency.

Why would he? He hasn't seen other gods do it. Even Fat Buu couldn't, and he had the highest god absorbed.

If you intrepret it like that, the scene makes no sense. He says that after saying that what they're doing to Goku now won't strengthen him enough.

He couldn't sense Beers. Inconsistency.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Which in no way makes sense of how Goku was abke to read Beers power. Inconsistency.

It was never suggested that Goku sensed Beerus' power.

Why would he? He hasn't seen other gods do it. Even Fat Buu couldn't, and he had the highest god absorbed.

Eh? Fat Boo could actually change his battle power. And since he & the rest of the Z-Senshi first displayed the ability to change their battle powers after their training with Kami, it's logical to assume that it was taught by him.

If you intrepret it like that, the scene makes no sense. He says that after saying that what they're doing to Goku now won't strengthen him enough.

Because Super Saiyan God will make Goku stronger. Goku wouldn't just become a god, he would become a Super Saiyan God. Piccolo pointed out that Goku would never be able to become a god or reach Beerus' power by getting everyone, which is evidently true.

He couldn't sense Beers. Inconsistency.

Was that stated?

[xmysticgohanx]

Another thing is how can Goku tell that when he can't sense Beerus' ki.

Huh... good point.

Well, add this to the pile of BOG plot holes.

I said it first

[Birusu16]

So I'm late to this one, but Goku says if he and Vegeta fused they'd still lose to Beerus in the directors cut. Does this count Vegetto, or does he mean just Gogeta, or in general they'd lose. Another thing is how can Goku tell that when he can't sense Beerus' ki. I always thought Beerus was above Vegetto (with some previews), but would this movie statement confirm it.

He's likely basing it off of how badly Beerus stomped him when he was in his ssj3 form. Also are you guys really debating about whether or not Beerus can suppress his power? If he wasn't capable of doing that then Whis wouldn't of stated that Beerus only used 70% of his power in his fight with Goku. He can clearly alter his power when the circumstance calls for it. If he couldn't then he'd of always been at 100%, which would contradict Whis' statement about him only using 70% of his power against Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Which in no way makes sense of how Goku was abke to read Beers power. Inconsistency.

It was never suggested that Goku sensed Beerus' power.

Why would he? He hasn't seen other gods do it. Even Fat Buu couldn't, and he had the highest god absorbed.

Eh? Fat Boo could actually change his battle power. And since he & the rest of the Z-Senshi first displayed the ability to change their battle powers after their training with Kami, it's logical to assume that it was taught by him.

If you intrepret it like that, the scene makes no sense. He says that after saying that what they're doing to Goku now won't strengthen him enough.

Because Super Saiyan God will make Goku stronger. Goku wouldn't just become a god, he would become a Super Saiyan God. Piccolo pointed out that Goku would never be able to become a god or reach Beerus' power by getting everyone, which is evidently true.

He couldn't sense Beers. Inconsistency.

Was that stated?

Then how did he know Beerus > SS3 Vegetto? There's no way he could get that just from performance.

No, he couldn't. Fat Buu could get rage boosts, but that's not the same thing as being able to control your battle power. And he had two high gods absorbed. It wasn't until he upgraded into Super Buu that he was able to sense ki and control his battle power at will, and it seems to be implied that was Pure Buu's ability, not a Kaioshin one.

That's debatable. The mere fact that Vegeta knew they could do so suggests that he saw it happen during the Raditz battle (also, if Ten's full power is only 250, it doesn't match his performance at the Budokai, where he seemed stronger than 260 King Piccolo and fought evenly with 335 weighted Goku).

Yes, it would make him stronger. Strong enough to fight Beerus. He specifically said that it wouldn't matter no matter how high his battle power got, it wouldn't be enough.

2nd hand information tells me such, but I obviously can't confirm it. Just going by what I've heard.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Then how did he know Beerus > SS3 Vegetto? There's no way he could get that just from performance.

There are also Kaio's comments, which he disregarded originally. His performance against Goku proved that Kaio was right, and that nothing would probably work on him, assuming that Kaio was right about everything. It's the same reason Vegeta lost hope from the beginning: He knew that the Hakaishin was supposed to be a super-strong guy, but when he heard that he defeated SS3 Goku so effortlessly, and Kaio told him that they would never stand a chance, he took Kaio's words as a fact, and tried to save the Earth in ways other than fighting.

No, he couldn't. Fat Buu could get rage boosts, but that's not the same thing as being able to control your battle power. And he had two high gods absorbed. It wasn't until he upgraded into Super Buu that he was able to sense ki and control his battle power at will, and it seems to be implied that was Pure Buu's ability, not a Kaioshin one.

I would argue that Fat Boo was raising his battle power when he gets angry, because honestly, that was the impression it always gave me.
And if it was an ability from Pure Boo, it doesn't mean that it can't be a Kaioshin one.

That's debatable. The mere fact that Vegeta knew they could do so suggests that he saw it happen during the Raditz battle (also, if Ten's full power is only 250, it doesn't match his performance at the Budokai, where he seemed stronger than 260 King Piccolo and fought evenly with 335 weighted Goku).

What makes Tenshinhan stronger than Piccolo Daimao?

Yes, it would make him stronger. Strong enough to fight Beerus. He specifically said that it wouldn't matter no matter how high his battle power got, it wouldn't be enough.

He was going to transform into a Super Saiyan God, a form beyond Super Saiyan 3, so of course he will also become stronger, he wasn't supposed to become merely a god. Piccolo doesn't say that if Goku can't become a god, he will never reach Beerus' level (though that's most likely true, it's only because of Beerus' incredibly huge power), he says that by just getting everyone's ki, he will never become a god, and he can't reach Beerus' level like that.

2nd hand information tells me such, but I obviously can't confirm it. Just going by what I've heard.

I don't recall anything in the movie about Piccolo being able or not being able to sense Beerus' power.

[RandomGuy96]

Then how did he know Beerus > SS3 Vegetto? There's no way he could get that just from performance.

There are also Kaio's comments, which he disregarded originally. His performance against Goku proved that Kaio was right, and that nothing would probably work on him, assuming that Kaio was right about everything. It's the same reason Vegeta lost hope from the beginning: He knew that the Hakaishin was supposed to be a super-strong guy, but when he heard that he defeated SS3 Goku so effortlessly, and Kaio told him that they would never stand a chance, he took Kaio's words as a fact, and tried to save the Earth in ways other than fighting.

No, he couldn't. Fat Buu could get rage boosts, but that's not the same thing as being able to control your battle power. And he had two high gods absorbed. It wasn't until he upgraded into Super Buu that he was able to sense ki and control his battle power at will, and it seems to be implied that was Pure Buu's ability, not a Kaioshin one.

I would argue that Fat Boo was raising his battle power when he gets angry, because honestly, that was the impression it always gave me.
And if it was an ability from Pure Boo, it doesn't mean that it can't be a Kaioshin one.

That's debatable. The mere fact that Vegeta knew they could do so suggests that he saw it happen during the Raditz battle (also, if Ten's full power is only 250, it doesn't match his performance at the Budokai, where he seemed stronger than 260 King Piccolo and fought evenly with 335 weighted Goku).

What makes Tenshinhan stronger than Piccolo Daimao?

Yes, it would make him stronger. Strong enough to fight Beerus. He specifically said that it wouldn't matter no matter how high his battle power got, it wouldn't be enough.

He was going to transform into a Super Saiyan God, a form beyond Super Saiyan 3, so of course he will also become stronger, he wasn't supposed to become merely a god. Piccolo doesn't say that if Goku can't become a god, he will never reach Beerus' level (though that's most likely true, it's only because of Beerus' incredibly huge power), he says that by just getting everyone's ki, he will never become a god, and he can't reach Beerus' level like that.

2nd hand information tells me such, but I obviously can't confirm it. Just going by what I've heard.

I don't recall anything in the movie about Piccolo being able or not being able to sense Beerus' power.

How would he possibly deduce that he's stronger than SS3 Vegetto just from that? Yes, he easily beat SS3 Goku, but that doesn't mean much, and there's still Gohan and Gotenks to prove Kaio wrong, assuming he is.

That doesn't seem to be what happens. He doesn't get angry and decide to power up. He gets angry, and that lets him power up. Otherwise, I think we probably would have received an indication of him doing it without a rage boost.

It can't, because then why couldn't the Kaioshin-influenced Fat Buu use it, while the more Pure Buu-dominated Super Buu could?

Tenshinhan sensed Daimao's ki. He said that weighted Goku had far surpassed Daimao (well, specifically he said that he far surpassed his own power when he fought King Piccolo, but same thing really). He proceeds to fight evenly with him.

And you don't think those two statements are supposed to tie together at all? "You can't become a god, just raise your battle power, and you'll never get to Beerus' level like that."

Is it ever stated that he CAN? Because a big deal is made of the fact that they can't, so it'd be weird if Piccolo could the whole time and just stayed quiet about it.