When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[Kaboom]

And that tiny little bang in that one panel is still drawn differently than it was for SSJ1 Gohan in the pre-tournament part of the story.

And I STILL don't understand why anyone would consider a tiny hair detail a better sign of a form than something glaringly in-your-face and obvious like the clear and consistent aura differences. It's like ignoring a mountain to study an ant hill.

[KentalSSJ6]

And that tiny little bang in that one panel is still drawn differently than it was for SSJ1 Gohan in the pre-tournament part of the story.

And I STILL don't understand why anyone would consider a tiny hair detail a better sign of a form than something glaringly in-your-face and obvious like the clear and consistent aura differences. It's like ignoring a mountain to study an ant hill.

What if...it was a real big ant hill? Complete with a theme park and water slide?

[kuartus4]

And that tiny little bang in that one panel is still drawn differently than it was for SSJ1 Gohan in the pre-tournament part of the story.

And I STILL don't understand why anyone would consider a tiny hair detail a better sign of a form than something glaringly in-your-face and obvious like the clear and consistent aura differences. It's like ignoring a mountain to study an ant hill.

The width of the hair bands varied even on Goku, but in each particular form he always had the same number of bangs. You never see ssj Goku with 3 bangs or ssj2 Goku with four bangs or two.

So I guess I have to ask, why is the aura more innately important than the hair? If AT drew Goku with three bangs but with a ssj aura, would you think he was ssj1 or ssj2?

[Super Vegetto]

The thing is that between that training period and the next time we saw Gohan transform (to either SSJ1 or SSJ2), there was about a month of in-universe time and likely several times as much out-of-universe time, after which Gohan looks the same regardless of what form he's in. Evidently Gohan's hair simply grew out and changed in that time, or Toriyama decided to stop drawing that extra little bang while Gohan was transformed.

And when we've got one instance where Gohan was explicitly said to be a Super Saiyan 2 and showed specific traits (aura sparks) and a handful of other instances where he's NOT said to be at Super Saiyan 2 and does NOT show those traits, then...

Wouldn't Gohan's hair growing out make the second bang during ssj even more prominent? It wouldn't make much sense for Gohan's hair becoming longer to be the reason for the disappearance of the 2nd bang when he's ssj1. And AT still drew SSJ1 Gohan with a 2nd bang in the tournament, so I don't think AT changed SSJ1 Gohan's hairstyle. Right panel, upper right corner:

Unless if you want to say that Gohan transformed in SSJ2 during Videl's match because he has only 1 bang...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

^ Actually, I am willing to say this. Gohan looks exactly the same when he transform because of Videl, against Kibito, Dabra, and Majin Boo, and in his Z-Sword training (save for the aura), and M10 SS2 Gohan is also based on that design, while M10 SS Gohan is based on High School arc SS Gohan.

While I do believe that the wild aura with sparks is a trait of Super Saiyan 2, and while I don't believe that Gohan got weaker during the time-skip in terms of battle power (but he did get weaker in terms of skill), I believe that Gohan's aura reflects how untrained he is, which is why he didn't have a wild aura with sparks for most of the times.

And while I could go to the route of "Gohan's SS hair changed after a month" (which is possible, since his base hair is different in the first place), I'll go with the "Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 all the time from the 25th TB arc and onwards", because, IMO, it doesn't make sense for Gohan to hold back his power when at the same time he was trying to get a rage boost to get stronger than normally & prevent Boo's revival.

[Gogeta8001]

^ Actually, I am willing to say this. Gohan looks exactly the same when he transform because of Videl, against Kibito, Dabra, and Majin Boo, and in his Z-Sword training (save for the aura), and M10 SS2 Gohan is also based on that design, while M10 SS Gohan is based on High School arc SS Gohan.

While I do believe that the wild aura with sparks is a trait of Super Saiyan 2, and while I don't believe that Gohan got weaker during the time-skip in terms of battle power (but he did get weaker in terms of skill), I believe that Gohan's aura reflects how untrained he is, which is why he didn't have a wild aura with sparks for most of the times.

And while I could go to the route of "Gohan's SS hair changed after a month" (which is possible, since his base hair is different in the first place), I'll go with the "Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 all the time from the 25th TB arc and onwards", because, IMO, it doesn't make sense for Gohan to hold back his power when at the same time he was trying to get a rage boost to get stronger than normally & prevent Boo's revival.

What good is it to use up more ki when your full power is not enough to beat the villain? And as for Dabra, Gohan already had a good lead on him so SSJ2 would just be wasting more energy.

[Son_Gohan]

Every Super Saiyan must be able to display it, it evidently, it's not necessarily always there.

If the form is demonstrated to not need it, then arguing the need for the trait to be there is basically for your own convenience. That’s just the conclusion you’ve chosen. It’s subjective.

[Reading Rainbow]

The thing is that between that training period and the next time we saw Gohan transform (to either SSJ1 or SSJ2), there was about a month of in-universe time and likely several times as much out-of-universe time, after which Gohan looks the same regardless of what form he's in. Evidently Gohan's hair simply grew out and changed in that time, or Toriyama decided to stop drawing that extra little bang while Gohan was transformed.

And when we've got one instance where Gohan was explicitly said to be a Super Saiyan 2 and showed specific traits (aura sparks) and a handful of other instances where he's NOT said to be at Super Saiyan 2 and does NOT show those traits, then...

Wouldn't Gohan's hair growing out make the second bang during ssj even more prominent? It wouldn't make much sense for Gohan's hair becoming longer to be the reason for the disappearance of the 2nd bang when he's ssj1. And AT still drew SSJ1 Gohan with a 2nd bang in the tournament, so I don't think AT changed SSJ1 Gohan's hairstyle. Right panel, upper right corner:

Unless if you want to say that Gohan transformed in SSJ2 during Videl's match because he has only 1 bang...

It took Gohan, Krillin, and Bulma 37 days to get to Namek and Gohan's hair looked the exact same as when he was on Earth. If his hair grew at all from when he trained Goten to the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament then it's negligible. There is a distinct physical difference between Gohan in SSJ 1 and SSJ 2.

The sparks vs non-sparks doesn't make sense because sparks are not always present during SSJ 2 and therefore one cannot go off that alone.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What good is it to use up more ki when your full power is not enough to beat the villain? And as for Dabra, Gohan already had a good lead on him so SSJ2 would just be wasting more energy.

I never mentioned that it doesn't make sense for not using it against Dabra, since as you said, he could be weaker than SS Gohan. But when Majin Boo was about to be revived, we see Gohan powering up as much as he could, trying to get angry so that he could get a rage boost, and firing a Kamehameha with all his might while trying to destroy Majin Boo's Egg to prevent his revival. So, if he is powering up, and is also trying to power up even more, why would he hold back at the same time?

[Super Vegetto]

[/quote]It took Gohan, Krillin, and Bulma 37 days to get to Namek and Gohan's hair looked the exact same as when he was on Earth. If his hair grew at all from when he trained Goten to the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament then it's negligible. There is a distinct physical difference between Gohan in SSJ 1 and SSJ 2.

The sparks vs non-sparks doesn't make sense because sparks are not always present during SSJ 2 and therefore one cannot go off that alone.[/quote]


It took them 34 days to reach Namek. You still didn't explained yourself. You belive that Gohan transformed in SSJ2 during Videl's match ?

[Reading Rainbow]

It took Gohan, Krillin, and Bulma 37 days to get to Namek and Gohan's hair looked the exact same as when he was on Earth. If his hair grew at all from when he trained Goten to the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament then it's negligible. There is a distinct physical difference between Gohan in SSJ 1 and SSJ 2.

The sparks vs non-sparks doesn't make sense because sparks are not always present during SSJ 2 and therefore one cannot go off that alone.[/quote]


It took them 34 days to reach Namek. You still didn't explained yourself. You belive that Gohan transformed in SSJ2 during Videl's match ?[/quote]

I got 37 days to reach Namek from this:

Spoiler:

How'd you get 34 days?

In short, this is what I think about Gohan and his transformation states:

SSJ 1 while training with Goten
SSJ 2 during Videl's match
SSJ 2 in front of Kibito
SSJ 2 during fight with Majin Dabura
SSJ 2 while Majin Buu is hatching going based off this:

Spoiler:

[Super Vegetto]

Date from Daizenshuu 7. Chapter 246 says Bulma and co. reach Namek 34 days after departing Earth, so this is that many days after Nov 14th.

The translation is not correct...

Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P4.1-5
Context: before Gohan fires the Kamehameha at Boo’s ball
Gohan: “An-anyhow, he's reached full power, so…at the very least…Uaaaah! I’ll offer this much resistance!”

If Gohan had achived full power (SSJ2) this debate wouldn't exist...btw i don't think that we can agree on Gohan transforming in SSJ2 during Videl's match. The plot went different way and Gohan transformed first time in SSJ2 against Kibito...nothing else supports his SSJ2 transformation pre fight...

[miguelnuva1]

Gohan hints after Buu first hatches that if he could go ssj2 he could handle Buu.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think Gohan's talking about bringing out all of his power (like Goku mentioned) moreso than referring to the Super Saiyan 2 form alone.

Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

But still, Gohan appeared to struggle to go beyond Super Saiyan before fighting Dabra again. He was angry, but couldn't use it to access any of his power. At that point, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's chances against Majin Boo looked a lot better than his Super Saiyan power. With that, I can see why he'd be confident in beating Boo if he was able to access all of his power.

Also, Gohan isn't a Super Saiyan 2 when he transforms during the Videl beatdown. There'd be no point in drawing him as a Super Saiyan 2 for Kibito. If it was all to show how much weaker or rusty he had grown with the lack of training, he shouldn't have had the specific sparks the aura at all.

[Son_Gohan]

Also, Gohan isn't a Super Saiyan 2 when he transforms during the Videl beatdown. There'd be no point in drawing him as a Super Saiyan 2 for Kibito. If it was all to show how much weaker or rusty he had grown with the lack of training, he shouldn't have had the specific sparks the aura at all.

Gohan fulfills the requirement that some people have concluded translates into the Super Saiyan 2 form itself later on. Yet when it actually occurs in the story, the interpretation suddenly gets ignored when it becomes inconvenient. If extreme anger is no longer the key to Super Saiyan 2 than what point does it have later on? You’ve created a paradox is what you’ve done. The story is being thrown out the window over something that doesn’t even need to be there.

When the transformation is involuntary and incapable of being restrained, the form that comes to mind shouldn’t be the one he had complete mastery over. If the sparks have been demonstrated to serve a more decorative presence in the form as opposed to essential, than it doesn’t seem by coincidence that every Saiyan’s first appearance with sparks in the arc was preceded by a form that lacked them, yet had hair traits that would resemble their SSJ2 forms.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If the form is demonstrated to not need it, then arguing the need for the trait to be there is basically for your own convenience. That’s just the conclusion you’ve chosen. It’s subjective.

Not really, the aura is also stated to be part of the form in at least one guidebook.

[Son_Gohan]

Not really, the aura is also stated to be part of the form in at least one guidebook.

Is the said guidebook applicable to the manga and Majin Buu arc? Post the entry if you want.

[Drayenko]

People saying that Gohan went SSJ2 when Videl was fighting have to be freaking joking.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Is the said guidebook applicable to the manga and Majin Buu arc? Post the entry if you want.

Yep & yep.

Super Saiyan
[suupaa saiya-jin]
First Appears
Chapter 317

Category
Ability

User(s)
Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli

Characteristics
The ultimate Saiyan warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyan. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiyans, but in reality any Saiyan that possesses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiyan race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. The outward signs of the transformation include an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils. In addition, a battle power 50 times that of normal is proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

Anime
In the anime, the Super Saiyan's distinctive golden aura was represented with special effects known as brush processing and permeation light (Daiezenshuu 5, p.104). The legendary Super Saiyan Broli debuted in "Burn Up!! A Close - Intense - Super-Fierce Battle" and appeared in three movies. Perhaps this instinct-driven form is the true Super Saiyan, which the legend says will "Love destruction and slaughter".
(Daizenshuu 6, p.106)

[Son_Gohan]

Yep & yep.

Super Saiyan
[suupaa saiya-jin]
First Appears
Chapter 317

Category
Ability

User(s)
Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli

Characteristics
The ultimate Saiyan warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyan. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiyans, but in reality any Saiyan that possesses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiyan race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. The outward signs of the transformation include an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils. In addition, a battle power 50 times that of normal is proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

Anime
In the anime, the Super Saiyan's distinctive golden aura was represented with special effects known as brush processing and permeation light (Daiezenshuu 5, p.104). The legendary Super Saiyan Broli debuted in "Burn Up!! A Close - Intense - Super-Fierce Battle" and appeared in three movies. Perhaps this instinct-driven form is the true Super Saiyan, which the legend says will "Love destruction and slaughter".
(Daizenshuu 6, p.106)

And nothing expresses it being essential to the form. If that is the interpretation you took from it then you are just seeing what you want to be there. When appearances such as Gohan stopping the bank robbers or him training with Goten for the first time lack the aura completely, it makes your argument come off as pointless and self-serving.