"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[dodge2461]

Full Dragon Ball Minus chapter.

(Links to complete chapter removed by moderator.)

Goku looks kind of off to me in the water chamber. He looks... Too skinny.

[ZombieVito]

Those comments by AT about Bardock not reaching Elite status make sense now. I'm sad to see EoB and the movie out of the canon but it was nice to see Gine and child Raditz for a change.

[penguintruth]

I definitely preferred to think of Bardock as he's portrayed in the TV Special, not really giving a single f*** about Kakkarot, who was a weakling. I would assume that Goku's mother was just some broodmare the Saiyans used to breed.

I don't want Goku's separation from his parents to be poignant. The whole point of Goku is that he's different from everyone else. I know that, narratively, making the Saiyans a more complex bunch makes for better universe building, but they're not intended to be complex.

This is why delving into the pasts of the characters is a bad idea. Revealing too much removes a lot of the mystique and wonder of the DB universe.

Next we'll learn that Freeza was a really great guy until his puppy, Snowcone, was hit by a space bus driven by Recoome. After getting beaten badly by Freeza in retaliation, Recoome became mentally handicap, and Freeza was then evil.

Oooh, how about this? Pilaf was once the prince of a monster kingdom that was destroyed in the aftermath of Piccolo Daimao's original reign of terror. You see, monsters were discriminated against and the world military was first formed to wipe out several monster kingdoms for fear that they might produce another Piccolo Daimao, not knowing where he really came from. Pilaf was the only survivor, claiming to be the Emperor, but with no kingdom to command, and thus his obsession with conquering the world.

What about this? The dinosaurs we see wandering around in DB Earth are the result of experiments Dr. Brief conducted ages ago involving a prototype time machine, and the disaster that resulted had him shelf the plans. Bulma, however, in the alternate future, came upon them in Capsule Corp basement and constructed a better version of it, sending Trunks back in time in it.

Do those all sound hackneyed and trite origin stories composed simply to make minor characters more interesting when they were never intended to be? There's a reason for that. BECAUSE THEY ARE. Just like DB Minus.

[Kid Buu]

Honestly, I'm kind of sick of seeing Bardock.

I'd rather see an origin of Puar & Oolong.

[RandomGuy96]

Those comments by AT about Bardock not reaching Elite status make sense now.

What...? What do we learn here about Bardock's battle power and class that we didn't already know?

Next we'll learn that Freeza was a really great guy until his puppy, Snowcone, was hit by a space bus driven by Recoome. After getting beaten badly by Freeza in retaliation, Recoome became mentally handicapped, and Freeza was then evil.

This is part of my head canon now.

Oh, and he just had to throw in a dumb reference to that dumb movie and its dumb form. Of course.

Honestly, I'm kind of sick of seeing Bardock.

I'd rather see an origin of Puar & Oolong.

Same. This had some interesting in-universe information, but Bardock and the saiyans in general have been getting way too much attention. Bardock's like the new Broly now.

I also notice that Freeza's been getting a lot of focus in recent material: the 2008 special focuses on the fall of his empire and two of his former minions, EOB features his ancestor Chilled and the beginnings of his organization, BOG features a flashback of his fight with Goku and Beerus repeatedly mentioning him, Toriyama recently elaborated a bit more on his family's history in a recent interview, and now here he is in DB Minus. Yet ironically we still know next to nothing about his family and backstory, while we keep getting all of this material on the saiyans.

[Codarik]

The best part was seeing a young Raditz.

[Chuquita]

Re: skinny Kakarrotto

The only in-universe reason I can come up with is since Earth is less straining gravity-wise, and as Gokû's eating habits were unregulated, he wasn't able to burn all those calories like he could on Planet Vegeta, and ended up putting on weight. Some of it's also muscle from training.

Out of universe though, Toriyama just doesn't draw musclely adults or slightly overweight children much anymore.

[RandomGuy96]

That reminds me: okay, why the hell does Raditz look and sound the way he does? Where'd he get his hair? Why is he 6'6 with a deep baritone voice? He's nothing like his father, brother, or nephews, and certainly didn't get those traits from his mother. Unless Gine cuts her hair.

Also, what's the explanation given for why a typical grunt is on a mission with, and talking directly to, the prince?

[penguintruth]

By the way... where's Nappa?

Dairy Queen, perhaps?

[Codarik]

Hmm... in the TV Special, Nappa was with Vegeta on another planet when Planet Vegeta got destroyed with no mention of Raditz, yet here we got Raditz with Vegeta on another planet with no mention of Nappa. Now to decide which is in my canon. This is hard decision.

[Lord Exor]

I definitely preferred to think of Bardock as he's portrayed in the TV Special, not really giving a single f*** about Kakkarot, who was a weakling. I would assume that Goku's mother was just some broodmare the Saiyans used to breed.

I don't want Goku's separation from his parents to be poignant. The whole point of Goku is that he's different from everyone else. I know that, narratively, making the Saiyans a more complex bunch makes for better universe building, but they're not intended to be complex.

This is why delving into the pasts of the characters is a bad idea. Revealing too much removes a lot of the mystique and wonder of the DB universe.

Next we'll learn that Freeza was a really great guy until his puppy, Snowcone, was hit by a space bus driven by Recoome. After getting beaten badly by Freeza in retaliation, Recoome became mentally handicap, and Freeza was then evil.

Oooh, how about this? Pilaf was once the prince of a monster kingdom that was destroyed in the aftermath of Piccolo Daimao's original reign of terror. You see, monsters were discriminated against and the world military was first formed to wipe out several monster kingdoms for fear that they might produce another Piccolo Daimao, not knowing where he really came from. Pilaf was the only survivor, claiming to be the Emperor, but with no kingdom to command, and thus his obsession with conquering the world.

What about this? The dinosaurs we see wandering around in DB Earth are the result of experiments Dr. Brief conducted ages ago involving a prototype time machine, and the disaster that resulted had him shelf the plans. Bulma, however, in the alternate future, came upon them in Capsule Corp basement and constructed a better version of it, sending Trunks back in time in it.

Do those all sound hackneyed and trite origin stories composed simply to make minor characters more interesting when they were never intended to be? There's a reason for that. BECAUSE THEY ARE. Just like DB Minus.

I rarely post outside of the music sub-forum, but this I feel warranted a response. You should know that correlation does not equal causation. Explicating a character's origin isn't necessarily tantamount to character derailment or, in the case of villains, villain decay.

Darth Plagueis expounded upon the origins of Palpatine, the principal villain of the Star Wars series, without dashing the character's role as evil incarnate. Introducing the man as a congenital psychopath reinforced his mythical stature--a person fated for nothing less than a blood-soaked imprint on history. We already know that Frieza was reared in a toxic household, so his resultant malevolence shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. How would the details of this time period tarnish his role in the mythology?

[Kid Buu]

I'm not against backstorys. I mean every big bad from Daimao to Buu (except Freeza) had an origin story and that worked out fine.

Its just that I'd rather see someone else besides Bardock; he has become over-saturated. Why not Chaozu? He seems interesting.

[penguintruth]

My point was, we don't need to know anything about Goku's parents to know about him. He bumped his head and the Goku we have is mostly the result of that. Whatever specific events transpired the reader needs to know were already revealed in the manga, ie, that the Saiyans were a brutal warrior race, Freeza employed them in his mad land sharking, the Saiyans were destroyed, but a handful survived. Goku through sheer dumb luck (if falling and hitting your head is luck) managed to eek out a kindhearted, if still a bit fight obsessed, personality, and there's no more to it necessary for the understanding of the rest of the story after the revelation of Goku's alien nature.

What were his parents like? The answer Toriyama should have given: It's not important.

To expound upon Bardock and Gine's story in the way Minus does is just a cheap stunt to milk some poignancy out of a story that needs none. The entire point I was trying to make with my little Freeza joke story is that frankly, it's just as silly as finding some reasoning for Freeza's evil and Recoome's weirdness. And granted, Goku bumping his head and becoming like he is was already a retcon, but it made sense within the narrative. Trying to be maudlin about the destruction of a race of murderous super warriors is pretty pointless. It doesn't serve the narrative of DB and it just tries to pull the heartstrings in a contrived manner decades after the manga ended in a forced attempt to reveal more about the characters.

[KentalSSJ6]

By the way... where's Nappa?

Dairy Queen, perhaps?

Its nearly 5 in the morning, and now I want Dairy Queen.

I hope your happy.

[Lord Exor]

How is having an aberrant pedigree to explain a personality any worse than something as vapid and slapstick as a head injury? So everyone on Planet Vegeta just so happened to share homogeneous dispositions? Absolutely everyone? Despite how biologically impossible that is? No, having an atypical lineage isn't contrary to the nature of the series.

[Tzigi]

Do those all sound hackneyed and trite origin stories composed simply to make minor characters more interesting when they were never intended to be? There's a reason for that. BECAUSE THEY ARE. Just like DB Minus.

No. They may be for you - but there are others (like me, for example) who just love the fact that they're getting more narrative material from the DB universe. If Toriyama decided to draw the diary of a 5 year old Pilaf I'd happily read it all. The same with a more developed back-story for Piccolo Daimao or any other character.

And I love DB-. The only problem I have with it is the horrendous style Toriyama is using now - I have seen heaps of dojinshi that are better drawn then this thing...

[penguintruth]

and slapstick as a head injury?

Goku's personality resulting from a head injury is absolutely absurd slapstick. It's told in a single panel by Kamesennin who for some reason never brought it up before. It's the very definition of shallow and cartoonish.

That's what makes it perfect. It's a silly, throwaway explanation for something that only needs a silly, throwaway explanation in the narrative. "Why is Goku not a bastard like Raditz? Head injury." That's all we needed. And when you think about it, it's even better, because Kamesennin never really had a reason to bring it up before. Goku was Goku, whether the elder Gohan found him in a space capsule or not.

This decades-after-the-fact maudlin melodrama of Bardock and Gine sneaking Goku in a pod and launching him off planet in some warm, touching gesture of love is completely at odds with what we know about Saiyans, and with what Raditz said was Kakkarot's purpose on Earth. It's just some weak over explaining to make DB's trials and tribulations meaningful as it cheaply tries to pull at your heart strings.

Well, at least it's better than Bardock being sent back in time to become the legendary Super Saiyan. But not much better.

[Luso Saiyan]

Those comments by AT about Bardock not reaching Elite status make sense now. I'm sad to see EoB and the movie out of the canon but it was nice to see Gine and child Raditz for a change.

When did Bardock "not reaching Elite status" not make sense? He was always portrayed and identified as a low-class Saiyan. And before claiming anything as "non-canon", it's ironic that the Bardock TV special is more consistent with the main manga than DB-.

Bardock's like the new Broly now.

Fortunately that's not true.

I rarely post outside of the music sub-forum, but this I feel warranted a response. You should know that correlation does not equal causation. Explicating a character's origin isn't necessarily tantamount to character derailment or, in the case of villains, villain decay.

I would agree, except for your Plagueis example, in that it's subjective to say that it didn't affect the character.

[Blade]

You know - normally I'm pretty disparaging towards over-protective fans that take issue against creators going back and revising, or changing elements of their creation. My usual thought is: 'like it or not - the guy who wrote the story, who created the characters, has total discretion over the universe they have fashioned. It's their ball game, it's their rules - deal with it', but when it comes to Toriyama dipping back into Dragonball? I'm starting to have grave misgivings.

George Lucas' more recent forays into the Star Wars Universe are often brought up as a comparable situation, but frankly, I think it's totally different. Lucas' changes are just unpopular - but his love, passion and knowledge of the universe he created is hard to doubt. Toriyama on the other hand? Not even remotely similar. He's long since passed the point where he has any passion towards his work. What he hasn't forgotten about the Dragonball Universe and its characters, he simply doesn't care enough about to look back into thoroughly enough to not risk uprooting it. He's not remotely bothered about how his revisions and additions effect and contradict previously established elements - and I think that's unfair on the fans of the work, who have made him incredibly rich and given him a wonderful quality of life, and frankly deserve a little more respect.

If he's going to occasionally give in to these flights of fancy that lead to things such as Jaco, he should at least approach the work with due regard and consideration. We all know he's a pretty light headed, easy going guy - and we know that such an approach to his work gave Dragonball its unmistakeable tone - but sometimes you have to have the self respect to reflect on your past work and think: "do I really have the care and passion to do my life's work justice by dipping back into it at this point?".

Let it be.

[Luso Saiyan]

You know - normally I'm pretty disparaging towards over-protective fans that take issue against creators going back and revising, or changing elements of their creation. My usual thought is: 'like it or not - the guy who wrote the story, who created the characters, has total discretion over the universe they have fashioned. It's their ball game, it's their rules - deal with it', but when it comes to Toriyama dipping back into Dragonball? I'm starting to have grave misgivings.

George Lucas' more recent forays into the Star Wars Universe are often brought up as a comparable situation, but frankly, I think it's totally different. Lucas' changes are just unpopular - but his love, passion and knowledge of the universe he created is hard to doubt. Toriyama on the other hand? Not even remotely similar. He's long since passed the point where he has any passion towards his work. What he hasn't forgotten about the Dragonball Universe and its characters, he simply doesn't care enough about to look back into thoroughly enough to not risk uprooting it. He's not remotely bothered about how his revisions and additions effect and contradict previously established elements - and I think that's unfair on the fans of the work, who have made him incredibly rich and given him a wonderful quality of life, and frankly deserve a little more respect.

If he's going to occasionally give in to these flights of fancy that lead to things such as Jaco, he should at least approach the work with due regard and consideration. We all know he's a pretty light headed, easy going guy - and we know that such an approach to his work gave Dragonball its unmistakeable tone - but sometimes you have to have the self respect to reflect on your past work and think: "do I really have the care and passion to do my life's work justice by dipping back into it at this point?".

Let it be.

I agree with most of your post. I'm one of those less-vocal fans who actually supports Lucas' revisions to his work because if anyone has the right to change it, it's the creator of said work. And just like Tolkien (whose changes I also support), the revisions he did were mostly for the sake of consistency, both visually and story-wise.

In this case, while I appreciate whenever the original author gives more glimpses of how he views his own universe, a bit of consistency should be expected in order to show some "respect" for the fictional universe. It's well known that Toriyama forgets X and Y, but in the original manga, even the smallest details were mostly consistent which means care and attention were applied to it.