When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And nothing expresses it being essential to the form. If that is the interpretation you took from it then you are just seeing what you want to be there. When appearances such as Gohan stopping the bank robbers or him training with Goten for the first time lack the aura completely, it makes your argument come off as pointless and self-serving.

... What? The aura can both be a trait & be turned on & off depending the case. What you are saying makes no sense. It's like saying that producing light isn't a trait of the lights in the Christmas trees because the turn on & off all the time. Same for the sparks.

[Kaboom]

I didn't think a "when a form's aura is present" qualifier needed to be added, either.

One of a tree's key visual traits you can use to identify it is the color and shape of its leaves, but those unique leaves don't stop being a normal trait of the tree during the winter when they fall off. They just don't happen to be there at the moment, so you have to use other methods to identify the tree.

Same way with the Super Saiyan auras. They're an obvious and easy way to identify which form a Saiyan is in (and sometimes the ONLY way in the case of characters whose hair doesn't change much or at all), but the aura's unique appearances don't STOP being a visual trait of each form just because the characters aren't always displaying an aura.

[TheGmGoken]

Oh I noticed more stuff! This is in response to people who think Toriyama changed his art style for whatever reason. Apparently Gohan vs Dabura happaned in Vol. 38. Ch. 10. Pg. 1. SSJ2 Goku appears in Vol. 38. Ch. 13. Pg. 8. The likelihood that Toriyama changed his art style and switched back within the same volume is very unlikely.

This also supports Gohan being ssj not SSJ2

[ZombieVito]

Well I have concluded that:

a) Gohan did receive a rage boost at the CG.
b) He did not get weaker after CG
c) He was a SSJ2 at the tournament.
d) He was not a SSJ2 against Dabura.

Goku never questioned Vegeta's claimed that he could kill Dabura, Goku also didn't know he had SSJ2. So SSJ Vegeta > Dabura is implied.

[mAcChaos]

That's a good point. Never thought of that.

[Super Vegetto]

Well I have concluded that:

a) Gohan did receive a rage boost at the CG.
b) He did not get weaker after CG
c) He was a SSJ2 at the tournament.
d) He was not a SSJ2 against Dabura.

Goku never questioned Vegeta's claimed that he could kill Dabura, Goku also didn't know he had SSJ2. So SSJ Vegeta > Dabura is implied.

I mentioned this awhile ago...Vegeta is the one that didn't know Goku had SSJ2. There is a quote that supports it..That also means how in Vegeta's mind it's:

SSJ Goku > Dabura...and ofc Vegeta also looks at himself as superior to Goku which also should put him above Dabura in just SSJ form...

[RandomGuy96]

Well I have concluded that:

a) Gohan did receive a rage boost at the CG.
b) He did not get weaker after CG
c) He was a SSJ2 at the tournament.
d) He was not a SSJ2 against Dabura.

Goku never questioned Vegeta's claimed that he could kill Dabura, Goku also didn't know he had SSJ2. So SSJ Vegeta > Dabura is implied.

Him not knowing about Vegeta having SS2 ain't too likely. He never questioned Vegeta's claims that he was stronger than SS2 Gohan.

[Saiga]

After re-reading the Boo arc, it definitely seems more likely than not that he didn't know Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2. He's shocked when Vegeta transforms into Super Saiyan 2, and says it will take longer than he expected.

[RandomGuy96]

After re-reading the Boo arc, it definitely seems more likely than not that he didn't know Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2. He's shocked when Vegeta transforms into Super Saiyan 2, and says it will take longer than he expected.

That's if you think the shock came from the transformation itself, though. I don't think so, as Vegeta had already referred to himself as stronger than Gohan twice, and Goku never contradicted him.

[Saiga]

After re-reading the Boo arc, it definitely seems more likely than not that he didn't know Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2. He's shocked when Vegeta transforms into Super Saiyan 2, and says it will take longer than he expected.

That's if you think the shock came from the transformation itself, though. I don't think so, as Vegeta had already referred to himself as stronger than Gohan twice, and Goku never contradicted him.

Well, given the timing I'd definitely say his surprise is at the transformation. If he knew Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2, and could feel that Vegeta was as strong as he was (same form) then he shouldn't be surprised by Vegeta at all. It seems to me that he turns Super Saiyan 2 deliberately so he can defeat Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta quickly.

And also, this is Vegeta we're talking about. Goku might just be thinking he's full of shit (Vegeta is at times) but doesn't want to say anything because Vegeta will get even more aggressive and argumentative.

[RandomGuy96]

After re-reading the Boo arc, it definitely seems more likely than not that he didn't know Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2. He's shocked when Vegeta transforms into Super Saiyan 2, and says it will take longer than he expected.

That's if you think the shock came from the transformation itself, though. I don't think so, as Vegeta had already referred to himself as stronger than Gohan twice, and Goku never contradicted him.

Well, given the timing I'd definitely say his surprise is at the transformation. If he knew Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2, and could feel that Vegeta was as strong as he was (same form) then he shouldn't be surprised by Vegeta at all. It seems to me that he turns Super Saiyan 2 deliberately so he can defeat Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta quickly.

And also, this is Vegeta we're talking about. Goku might just be thinking he's full of shit (Vegeta is at times) but doesn't want to say anything because Vegeta will get even more aggressive and argumentative.

I don't think he can guess so specifically. He knows SS2 will be a big boost, but since things aren't measured in numbers anymore and Vegeta isn't even fully exerting himself at the moment, he can't guess exactly how strong Vegeta will end up.

I don't think that's likely. He had no problem telling Vegeta point blank that he was wrong about being so strong in the Cell Saga, and he kinda agrees with Vegeta when Vegeta says both he and Goku are stronger than Gohan. Goku would also have to be assuming Vegeta is a total retard, as both of them had sensed SS2 Gohan's power when Vegeta made that statement.

[Saiga]

I don't think he can guess so specifically. He knows SS2 will be a big boost, but since things aren't measured in numbers anymore and Vegeta isn't even fully exerting himself at the moment, he can't guess exactly how strong Vegeta will end up.

I really don't think that fits the scene at all. With Vegeta's various power ups, I think Goku should have been able to feel his full strength at some point and know he's as strong as him. Then it doesn't really matter that things aren't measured in numbers because it's the same form.

I don't think that's likely. He had no problem telling Vegeta point blank that he was wrong about being so strong in the Cell Saga, and he kinda agrees with Vegeta when Vegeta says both he and Goku are stronger than Gohan. Goku would also have to be assuming Vegeta is a total retard, as both of them had sensed SS2 Gohan's power when Vegeta made that statement.

Where does he agree with Vegeta? Anyway, Gohan at the tournament was pretty heavily implied to not be using his full power (Kaioshin tells Kibito he didn't see Gohan's full power) so the level he was showing there doesn't have to be above SS1 Vegeta.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

In the anime its more clear he's a Mssj.

Mastered Super Saiyan is not a form.

Mastering a transformation does not bring you to a different state in power, it means you've fully controlled the form and it feels more normal. It is still 50x the base power.

When Goku and Gohan faced Cell in the Cell games, they were merely suppressing their Super Saiyan form, and then going full power.

The only reason Goku and Gohan had such a larger gap between them and Vegeta/Trunks was that they drastically increased their base power level by staying SSJ for so long and getting used to it, plus of course their training regimen overall.

Mssj is a different state of the same form like Assj and Ussj. Mssj is stated to remove stress, aggression and maximize ki output as well as simply mastering the form gives a power increase.

I recall Goku stating in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that he and Gohan should "stay as regular Super Saiyans" - this implies MSSJ or FPSSJ are not actually forms, they are just simply fan terms or names for it. (may have sprung up from youtube I guess?)

Also what would the multipliers be if that was more powerful than SSJ1? If let's say Goku's power shot up by 2-3x, his state would be 100-150x base level, then SSJ2 would be 200-300x base... and so on. That is too much power to control. I recall SSJ2 and Ascended SSJ being the only states that push the user over 50x.

[Super Vegetto]

MSSJ form is fan made term. FPSSJ is official name for Goku when goes Full power in SSJ form.

I say FPSSJ is grade 3 without drawbacks. The reason they neaded to master SSJ form, and achive FPSSJ without anything holding them back (speed/energy drain/big muscles)...

[Son_Gohan]

... What? The aura can both be a trait & be turned on & off depending the case. What you are saying makes no sense. It's like saying that producing light isn't a trait of the lights in the Christmas trees because the turn on & off all the time. Same for the sparks.

The issue is not whether it’s a trait or not, but if it is required to be there to constitute the form. The manga demonstrates it does not. Therefore, adopting it as the primary indicator of SSJ is giving it more purpose than the author himself is shown to impart. You don’t know what reasons he had for the aura’s application; you don’t know whether your perception on auras are right or wrong. Your position is not based off concrete fact, it’s about time to stop pretending it is.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The issue is not whether it’s a trait or not, but if it is required to be there to constitute the form. The manga demonstrates it does not.

I never said that the aura is always there. The aura isn't always there for Super Saiyans, but as far as Saiyans are concerned, it's only there for them when they are Super Saiyans (talking about the standing aura, not the flying/power-up aura, which everyone has).

[Kaboom]

I'd like to bring up my tree analogy again.

You can easily pick out certain types of trees by the shape and color or whatever of their leaves, making those leaves a key visual trait of the tree. But even when the tree sheds its leaves in the winter, it doesn't just stop being that type of tree. The leaves merely aren't there to show it at the moment.

When that happens, you can still look at other more minor traits (the bark, roots, wood, etc) to figure out what type of tree is it. But when two trees have similar secondary traits, but very obviously different leaves... well, that means they're two different species of tree, plain and simple.

In the same way, the different Super Saiyan forms can be easily identified by their distinct auras (and, putting aside the argued case with Gohan, the manga is undeniably EXTRAORDINARILY consistent with this), and that doesn't stop being the case just because the auras are sometimes "turned off" when the Saiyan is transformed but powered down. That's why, "you can't say the aura is a trait of the form if it's not always there" is a weak argument.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

His aura was sharply flowing both during the Tournament and Dabura fights. This looks a lot different than SSJ1, notice how loosely the ki flows around Goku or Vegeta in the Android Saga. It also isn't logical to say that Gohan would suddenly not use SSJ2 when he was SSJ2 just previously.

Plus, doesn't Gohan "zap" right into regular SSJ? Look back when he sparred with Goten, he didn't "struggle" or really even take the time to power up into SSJ1.

I don't pay too much attention to hair bangs or anything ridiculous like that. I seriously doubt Akira Toriyama intended on Gohan's hair to look a specific way when he faced Dabura.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

MSSJ form is fan made term. FPSSJ is official name for Goku when goes Full power in SSJ form.

I say FPSSJ is grade 3 without drawbacks. The reason they neaded to master SSJ form, and achive FPSSJ without anything holding them back (speed/energy drain/big muscles)...

I'm curious why we think this is actually a transformation?

How do you know Goku just simply wasn't suppressing his SSJ power when he and Cell were warming up and then going to full 50x base when he was surious?

[gojirason]

On top of what's already been said...

Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan didn't get any weaker.
Vegeta says Gohan was stronger as a brat.
The only time he was actually stronger as a kid was due to rage boosts.
The only time he had a rage boost was as a SSJ2.

Ergo Gohan was a SSJ2? Honestly, this discussion doesn't seem as relevant as the question of whether or not Dabura could handle SSJ2 Gohan, which, given he's as strong as Cell (and as strong as doesn't mean as strong as a fraction of someone's strength, that's patently ridiculous; that's literally like saying a farmer is as strong as Trunks in legitimate comparison with no further explanation because Trunks was suppressed to BP 5.) definitely seems true. Especially since Super Perfect Cell was unquestionably SSJ2 level, and Dabura is almost definitely just a tool to compare to previous villain at their strongest, much like how the first thing Raditz did was gimp a stronger Piccolo, the Saibamen represented Raditz, Cui represented Vegeta exactly, and Mecha Freeza obviously represented Freeza. It's an extremely common narrative tool that Toriyama uses going even further back than Raditz, and it would be foolish to suddenly break the trend here. Dabura is a stand in for Cell at his strongest, especially since that's what "as strong as Cell" and "Battle Power equal to Cell's" should actually mean, unless you think all the times they repeatedly refer to "Gohan's strength at the Cell Games" they really mean "when he was suppressed and watching Goku fight". If you think he's a SSJ1, fine, but don't muddy the issue with ridiculous things to say like that.

On top of other things, Dabura flat out states in the anime that he has a higher kiri rating than Goku (not even 4000 kiri could defeat me) and his sentiment is similar in the manga; he's stronger than SSJ Goku against Yakon, so unless SSJ Gohan is stronger than SSJ Goku (lmao no), then he'd have to be SSJ2 to match Dabura.

For what it's worth, literally every video game also seems to think that Gohan was a SSJ2 when he blasted Buu's ball.

I don't know what was going through Toriyama's head when he drew a SSJ aura on Gohan and I won't pretend to, though I won't dismiss out of hand the potentiality that he was going for some kind of message beyond just form. What I know is that at least one or more official sources consistently state he was a SSJ2 and common sense, powerscaling, general conversation around it, and Toriyama's much longer standing narrative style supports it. I don't know how they came to that conclusion, but I know that Toriyama supervised it; they may have even gone directly to him out of confusion and that may have been what he said, and if not he definitely agreed to publish it as canon.

That's all I really need. In the face of more definitive information than interpretation, interpretation loses.

Of course one could always argue for "Death of the Author", which is fine too, but I try to avoid that beyond my personal headcanon, which I generally try to keep to myself because I am painfully aware that they aren't relevant to virtually any conversation.