Why didn't Mr. Popo take down Daimao?

[Gokuden]

I was talking from the crowd's perspective, nobody figured out that Shen was actually a vessel for Kami. I thought he succeeded in fooling the public, and that was probably his goal, along with containing Ma. The chosen ones, who later came to train with him weren't the ones he aimed to hide himself from.

I would assume uttering some foreign litany, and carrying a seal would probably come off as occultist to the Japanese audience. Which is why I say that Ma appeared to be a demon at that point in time.

I'm not arguing your points, I'm just saying that Kami fooled the simple souls in the audience, minus Roshi.

Yes, but again, DBZGTKOSDH's theory (which is what I'm refuting) was that he was hiding from his heavenly superiors (including the guy who keeps a record of all the good and bad things you've done during your life), not the crowd. So in that case, revealing yourself to *anyone*, "chosen ones" or not, would be tactical suicide and why I think his theory is unsound.

I'm not arguing this. His superiors, we don't know who they are at that point, we thought he was the be all, end all. I doubt Yenma, or Kaio were even thought of, but I know Kami wasn't the brightest of individuals, and would kneel at the very voice of Yenma in DBZ. But, in DB, he was the head honcho. I was just adding to your point in saying that the crowd is clueless, and that the disguise worked for them.

My theory was that he was concealing his identity from the general populace, and it worked.

I don't like disproving theories, but DBZGTKOSDH, at that moment in time, we thought Kami was the be all, end all.

[GS7X7]

"So you want the world to be ruled by a totalitarian dictator with infinite power? Where should the line be drawn between good and evil? Should evil thoughts be punished? If the dictator is also omniscient, should he punish evil before it even happens, like in Minority Report?

That kind of world sounds rather frightening, I'd rather the human race be allowed to grow and mature on its own, and work its problems out itself."


I didn't mean that I want God to be a dictator punishing people just for thought crimes.

But I would like it if God could come down, prove it's him 100%, then write one definitive book of religion telling us how to behave (instead of several, some with hundreds of competing translations) before returning.

[UpFromTheSkies]

"So you want the world to be ruled by a totalitarian dictator with infinite power? Where should the line be drawn between good and evil? Should evil thoughts be punished? If the dictator is also omniscient, should he punish evil before it even happens, like in Minority Report?

That kind of world sounds rather frightening, I'd rather the human race be allowed to grow and mature on its own, and work its problems out itself."


I didn't mean that I want God to be a dictator punishing people just for thought crimes.

But I would like it if God could come down, prove it's him 100%, then write one definitive book of religion telling us how to behave (instead of several, some with hundreds of competing translations) before returning.

And how could a God prove it's a God 100%? How would you distinguish a God from a technologically superior alien, or an interdimensional being? And if he writes a book, how do you know it's good? Does might equal right?

[GS7X7]

"So you want the world to be ruled by a totalitarian dictator with infinite power? Where should the line be drawn between good and evil? Should evil thoughts be punished? If the dictator is also omniscient, should he punish evil before it even happens, like in Minority Report?

That kind of world sounds rather frightening, I'd rather the human race be allowed to grow and mature on its own, and work its problems out itself."


I didn't mean that I want God to be a dictator punishing people just for thought crimes.

But I would like it if God could come down, prove it's him 100%, then write one definitive book of religion telling us how to behave (instead of several, some with hundreds of competing translations) before returning.

And how could a God prove it's a God 100%? How would you distinguish a God from a technologically superior alien, or an interdimensional being? And if he writes a book, how do you know it's good? Does might equal right?

You know, those are some good points! How difficult would it be for a group of humans in the future to visit a backwards alien world with people still in huts and convince them that they're gods? Hopefully technologically advanced societies will have advanced moral values as well.

I guess a God would have to judged by his actions and words.

Anyway, I have no idea how one Supreme God could prove it's God and not just an alien using "fancy tricks" as Mr. Satan would put it.

[Saiga]

If said God had humanity's best interests in mind (which is assumed by most people about hypothetical Gods) I think I'd be okay with a benevolent dictator in exchange for losing human cruelty.

[ABED]

And in doing so he creates a big plot hole that he plugs with "it's not his place." I'm referring to both Popo and Goku.

It's not a plot hole, if Kami & Goku were not responsible for Daimao's & Boo's creation & revival respectively, I would be 100% with them on their decisions, and I would have done the same as well. Gods & dead people aren't the ones that should solve the problems of the mortals, like parents shouldn't solve all of their kids' problems. Some times, the kids have to stand in their own feet, and overcome their problems, so that they will be able to overcome greater problems in the future. If a young adult doesn't want to get a job because he has his dad to pay everything for him, he will never become independent. If a kid has his mom doing all of his homework for him, he will never finish school. If Goku had killed Boo, the kids wouldn't be strong enough to defeat an enemy stronger than Boo, and there won't be Goku there to save them next time because he is dead.

The in universe explanation doesn't make sense, when does Goku lie like that?

Since 7 years after the Cell Games? Say hello to character development.[/quote]
1. It's a cop out.
2. This isn't a parent doing their kid's homework for him, it's a parent stopping a child from putting a knife in a electrical socket.
3. If you create a problem, it's only right that you clean it up.
4. That's not character development. If it is, it's crappy, and all happens off screen. I don't see how what happened at the Cell Games changes Goku into a person that would lie to evade responsibility.
5. Why is the blame falling all on Goku's shoulders for Buu? What about Vegeta?

There's no good explanation for why Popo or Kami don't do anything. We have no clue what the hell Kami does. Are Popo's groundskeeping responsibilities so important that he should put a few nice flowers above the fate of millions?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

2. This isn't a parent doing their kid's homework for him, it's a parent stopping a child from putting a knife in a electrical socket.

No, it isn't. Goten & Trunks got much stronger when they were preparing to beat Boo. Yes they failed, but they surpassed Goku form that, and if Goku had remained dead, the Earth would be safe in their hands when they had grown more mature.

3. If you create a problem, it's only right that you clean it up.

Which is why I said this:

if Kami & Goku were not responsible for Daimao's & Boo's creation & revival respectively, I would be 100% with them on their decisions

4. That's not character development. If it is, it's crappy, and all happens off screen. I don't see how what happened at the Cell Games changes Goku into a person that would lie to evade responsibility.

Character development doesn't have to be good. And of course it happened off screen, we had 7 freaking years happening off screen!

5. Why is the blame falling all on Goku's shoulders for Buu? What about Vegeta?

He isn't relevant to our discussion. But at least Vegeta took responsibility to kill Boo and gave his life to do it, he didn't hide his tricks like Goku did.

[ABED]

No, it isn't. Goten & Trunks got much stronger when they were preparing to beat Boo. Yes they failed, but they surpassed Goku form that, and if Goku had remained dead, the Earth would be safe in their hands when they had grown more mature.

Of course it is. They weren't ready to fight Buu. Power isn't everything, they weren't mature enough. I don't see how Goku not letting his kid fight Buu is akin to not letting him grow up.

Character development doesn't have to be good. And of course it happened off screen, we had 7 freaking years happening off screen!

That's not character development, and if you are gonna have a character progress, you make a point of it, you don't have it all happen off screen and not tell the reader. What exactly was his development? It sounds like you are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. This isn't character development, it's inconsistent characterization.

He isn't relevant to our discussion. But at least Vegeta took responsibility to kill Boo and gave his life to do it, he didn't hide his tricks like Goku did.

That's only if you think that Toriyama planned it all out, otherwise it's completely out of character for him to not clean up his own mess.

[Kid Buu]

Well I do agree Vegeta should be blamed too. Goku's action may have indirectly got people killed, but Vegeta directly got people killed in the Cell and Buu arcs!

[dbzfan7]

Really if Toriyama had Goku say something like "I could have beat the fat one had SSJ3 not burn so much of my time on earth" then even if releasing Boo was partly his fault, he would have had a logical reason for not killing Fat Boo right away and have the boys do it.

[RandomGuy96]

No, because it still wouldn't make sense for him to hold back on Vegeta.

So, what does Kami do again? If he didn't stop Daimao, despite being able to do so with a sentence, what is his actual job?

[dbzfan7]

No, because it still wouldn't make sense for him to hold back on Vegeta.

Oh yeah I forgot, guess Goku is an asshole no matter what.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Of course it is. They weren't ready to fight Buu. Power isn't everything, they weren't mature enough. I don't see how Goku not letting his kid fight Buu is akin to not letting him grow up.

Goku shouldn't be able to know that. The only kids he knew up until that point were himself, Kuririn, and Gohan, and all of them were mature enough to protect the Earth.

What exactly was his development?

Now that I think about it a little, forget what I said. I disagree with you that Goku was out of character. The whole situation was new for Goku, Goku was always alive before, so there wasn't any excuse for him to not fight because it wasn't his responsibility.

That's only if you think that Toriyama planned it all out, otherwise it's completely out of character for him to not clean up his own mess.

The whole "It's not my responsibility to do it" was an excuse to give the kids a chance to do it so that they can grow stronger from that.

[Mr.Judge]

Don't know why members here who defend inconsistencies are making a big deal out of other inconsistencies or major plot-hole from earlier part of DB.

Akira Toriyama has written the plot for DB by the seat of his pants.

1. Red Ribbon Arc and the 8 months.

2. Mafuba technique not affecting the Namekians?

3. Mercenary Tao apparently dying(Red Ribbon Arc) or getting KO'd(retcon in 23rd Budokai) from a hand grenade.

4. Mr. Popo magic carpet could have saved Piccolo from dying at the hands of Nappa.

5. The Kaio ken multipliers changing its multiplier value across various chapters.
if Kaio ken 1 doubles the power then Kaio ken 20 should have a multiplier of 21 instead of 20.

6. Earth surviving attacks on it surface from beings stronger than Frieza.

7. The multiplier of SSJ3 Gotenks who should be 8x SSJ1 Gotenks makes less sense in front of Super Buu. A SSJ3 Gotenks going by the 8x multiplier should have easily disposed of super Buu as soon as their fight started instead of prolonging the fight.
Son-Goku betting on them was the right choice.

Considering the Discussion is about SSJ3 Son-Goku/Majin Buu and Piccolo/Kami.
Son-Goku is bound by his saiya-jin battle instincts. Any sense of reasoning Son-Goku has, are thrown out of the window if Son-Goku even gets the gist/whiff that there might be a strong opponent.

Even if Majin Buu was resurrected because of the bout between Goku-Vegeta. Goku as SSJ3 was strong enough to finish him and also him betting on Fusion Technique/Gotenks was spot on.

Instead it was Akira Toriyama who kept on switching the roles of Main Protagonist from Gotenks to Gohan to Son-Goku. The Entire Buu saga was not well thought out and apparently seems rushed.

While on the other hand,
Piccolo Daimao was stated as creation of evil on Earth ,so it was the responsibility of Earth and its Inhabitants while this Kami even provided Dragon Balls to reverse the damage.
Considering Kami doesn't interfere in the earthly matter but since training Son-Goku ,that old attitude/outlook of his towards Earth changes and then on they actively participate in saving Earth.

It is very similar to Super Buu, as he too was born out of the actions of 2 guys on Earth.
Also Mr. Satan apparently tames Majin Buu and sort-of gains a victory over Fat Buu.

Also Majin Buu is released during the presence of the most Strongest Warriors in the universe and at the same time stronger than Supreme Kai and due to which Majin Buu is also curbed and curtailed.

[Kamiccolo9]

While on the other hand,
Piccolo Daimao was stated as creation of evil on Earth ,so it was the responsibility of Earth and its Inhabitants while this Kami even provided Dragon Balls to reverse the damage.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this? I do seem to recall the evil in Kami having been said to be a result of how he perceived Earthlings, but I can't remember what exactly was said, or if it was in the manga or not. If so, then that's a decent point.

[Mr.Judge]

While on the other hand,
Piccolo Daimao was stated as creation of evil on Earth ,so it was the responsibility of Earth and its Inhabitants while this Kami even provided Dragon Balls to reverse the damage.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this? I do seem to recall the evil in Kami having been said to be a result of how he perceived Earthlings, but I can't remember what exactly was said, or if it was in the manga or not. If so, then that's a decent point.

I could be wrong due to mixing anime and manga.
For Namekian Kami to become the next Kami of Earth, he has to get rid of the evil of earth that has crept into him.
Also the reason people killed by Piccolo Daimao are stuck in between realms of earth and cant pass unto otherworld, this part is unique to Earth only.

[ABED]

Goku shouldn't be able to know that. The only kids he knew up until that point were himself, Kuririn, and Gohan, and all of them were mature enough to protect the Earth.

Trunks and Goten aren't Goku. He can't just lay that at their feet and say, "we did it, so should you." At least Gohan had his father and Piccolo to train him, and back him up.

As for Kami, Piccolo was his fault. Evil may have crept into his soul because of humans, but he chose to expel it because he wanted to be Kami so much. Also, what does Popo do that's so damn important?

[Kid Buu]

Also, what does Popo do that's so damn important?

Kami's fuck-buddy.

.....what? C'mon we were all thinking it.

[ABED]

Also, what does Popo do that's so damn important?

Kami's fuck-buddy.

.....what? C'mon we were all thinking it.

No, because "gay" doesn't pop into my head whenever two guys are with each other.

[Kid Buu]

Same here, but Kami isn't male. Nameks have no gender.