My opinion of Pre-Z Dragon Ball? Let us find out, now!!

[The Tori-bot]

It's good to hear that, yeah, Japan isn't too keen on drugging teenage girls before fondling them either.

I'm sure "Japan" will be gratified to hear that.

[Nanotchi]

I don't like how OP is making assumptions on Japan based on what happens in a cartoon for little boys. It's like if someone from Japan watches The Simpsons and assumes that every american is fat, bald, unqualified for their job, and are yellow.

[Fionordequester]

They aren't. They're only 16 at this point. It's not that weird, when you were 12, didn't you have crushes on girls that were several grades ahead of you? Why is it creepy that Oolong likes girls and older women? Again, Bulma's sixteen.

Because honestly, Oolong doesn't really act like a 12-14 year old, or at least, he hasn't been since his intro episode. It's kind of like in Yu Yu Hakusho where Yusuke and Kuwabara are supposedly only 14 years old...yeah, the show SAYS that, and I won't argue as to how realistic that is (because I don't know), but, with their appearance and general demeanor, they don't give that impression at all. So when they talk to each other, it feels more like two 18-20 year olds talking to each other rather than two 14 year olds, you know what I mean?

And that's what's happening with Oolong I guess. Most of his dialogue since his intro Episode gives the impression of someone who at least thinks like an adult. And in addition, I've heard of 12-14 year olds peeping on girls in the bathroom, but, I'll be darned if I can think of anyone who'd go as far as to drug them in order to fondle them!

What rules? Most of the animals are anthropomorphic. The world is still setting up its rules. A pig and a cat can talk, but you have issues with a dolphin?

... ... ...

Actually, you know what, that's a good point. I guess I was already used to them being able to speak so...huh. Interesting when someone can expose your biases like that, huh?

[ABED]

They aren't. They're only 16 at this point. It's not that weird, when you were 12, didn't you have crushes on girls that were several grades ahead of you? Why is it creepy that Oolong likes girls and older women? Again, Bulma's sixteen.

Because honestly, Oolong doesn't really act like a 12-14 year old, or at least, he hasn't been since his intro episode. It's kind of like in Yu Yu Hakusho where Yusuke and Kuwabara are supposedly only 14 years old...yeah, the show SAYS that, and I won't argue as to how realistic that is (because I don't know), but, with their appearance and general demeanor, they don't give that impression at all. So when they talk to each other, it feels more like two 18-20 year olds talking to each other rather than two 14 year olds, you know what I mean?

And that's what's happening with Oolong I guess. Most of his dialogue since his intro Episode gives the impression of someone who at least thinks like an adult. And in addition, I've heard of 12-14 year olds peeping on girls in the bathroom, but, I'll be darned if I can think of anyone who'd go as far as to drug them in order to fondle them!

I get your point, but I'd rather them speak a little more mature than have someone try to create young people speech.

As for YYH, I never had a problem with how Yusuke and Kuwabara spoke. I don't think they spoke any more mature a manner than boys that age.

[dbboxkaifan]

I don't like how OP is making assumptions on Japan based on what happens in a cartoon for little boys. It's like if someone from Japan watches The Simpsons and assumes that every american is fat, bald, unqualified for their job, and are yellow.

Or if it were a US cartoon show about African Americans they'd stay home all day long, eat chicken, live off their welfares and are all on gangs...

I just hope that the OP doesn't think what he sees on a kid's cartoon to be Japan's culture or else that could end badly if he annoyed a Japanese in real life because not only is it rude and offensive but racist also.

[Fionordequester]

I just hope that the OP doesn't think what he sees on a kid's cartoon to be Japan's culture or else that could end badly if he annoyed a Japanese in real life because not only is it rude and offensive but racist also.

Oh no, of course not! People are too complicated to really generalize like that! When I say that I think there's something, I speak more in terms of what the media is projecting. Kind of like how people say that our media, in general, has a bad habit of putting a lot of pressure on women to be supermodels, but, obviously that's probably not the case for even 50% of Americans, let alone all of them, you know what I mean?

[Bullza]

I actually started watching Dragon Ball over again from the start the past few days, don't blame you for skipping the Pilaf arc it's really bad. It improves drastically from that point though.

[Adamant]

Oh no, of course not! People are too complicated to really generalize like that! When I say that I think there's something, I speak more in terms of what the media is projecting.

Dragon Ball is not intended to teach non-Japanese viewers about Japanese culture. You really need to stop treating it as if it is.

[Gaffer Tape]

I actually started watching Dragon Ball over again from the start the past few days, don't blame you for skipping the Pilaf arc it's really bad. It improves drastically from that point though.

Except that he didn't. He's watching it right now. And it's not. It's one of the better arcs in the series, and really the only one that successfully manages an ensemble cast. To that end, it gives nearly everyone distinct, interesting personalities. They all have useful skills that further the plot, including characters with skills that aren't all about fighting. And it's just hilarious.

[Kid Buu]

I've actually always considered this arc the best one in the series.

[ABED]

I actually started watching Dragon Ball over again from the start the past few days, don't blame you for skipping the Pilaf arc it's really bad. It improves drastically from that point though.

Except that he didn't. He's watching it right now. And it's not. It's one of the better arcs in the series, and really the only one that successfully manages an ensemble cast. To that end, it gives nearly everyone distinct, interesting personalities. They all have useful skills that further the plot, including characters with skills that aren't all about fighting. And it's just hilarious.

They always had distinct personalities, the problem is that they all don't necessarily have something interesting to do.

It's a good arc, though not the best of the series.

[B]

I've always seen the Pilaf arc as "the worst" in the obvious sense that it's the only point where you aren't enjoying it off of the goodwill of the pre-established characters; it's setting everything in motion. I have no problems with its tone or subject matter. Every story needs its genesis. Bulma is probably at her most relevant and enjoyable here.

This entire thread is what happens when you are introduced to the middle of a story.

[Fionordequester]

Dragon Ball is not intended to teach non-Japanese viewers about Japanese culture. You really need to stop treating it as if it is.

....You know, I thought about that, and I kind of agree with you...and kind of don't at the same time.

On one hand, I feel like I get what you're trying to tell me. For example, my favorite comedy of all time is "Fresh Prince of Bel-Air"...but I sure as heck wouldn't want THAT to be the only exposure foreigners have of our culture, nor would I want the Banks family to be the impression that foreigners have of our nation at large. A bunch of spoiled, bratty dudes who live in a bubble of luxury and are totally disconnected from the rest of the world.

On the other hand though, I feel like you can make some inferences based on what you see in foreign cartoons, like what Japan seems to think is acceptable for children to see. From what I can see, we're different in that regard, for better or for worse (you can argue both ways).

Still, I guess it is a bit unfair to judge how lenient they are towards sex. Maybe they have the SAME attitudes on sex we do, but just have a lot more confidence in their children than we do in ours. Heck, maybe they ARE more liberal when it comes to sex, and it's actually a GOOD thing. I obviously disagree, but then, I have my lapses in logic and am only human.

[Fionordequester]

...Sigh...well this sucks. I just spent 2-3 hours working on my impressions of the show thus far...and then when I hit Preview, I was greeted with...

"You need to log in in order to post here!"

And when I tried to go back? I got the same message, and next thing I know, everything is all gone... . Is there any way to prevent that from happening, or is it just something I'm always going to have to be paranoid about?

[Dbzfan94]

...Sigh...well this sucks. I just spent 2-3 hours working on my impressions of the show thus far...and then when I hit Preview, I was greeted with...

"You need to log in in order to post here!"

And when I tried to go back? I got the same message, and next thing I know, everything is all gone... . Is there any way to prevent that from happening, or is it just something I'm always going to have to be paranoid about?

Try typing it in a Word document then copy and paste into here.

[Fionordequester]

Sigh...still haven't had a chance to do the next interviews. Also...for some reason, the website has been doing something weird to me. It keeps giving me a 403 "the website won't let you on" error. Which was strange. Heck, at first, I was worried that I got banned or something, but, that didn't seem like VegettoEX to do it so suddenly. Does anyone know of any server issues this sight may have been having?

EDIT: I'd have checked out the announcements first, but...I was worried about the website deciding to suddenly 403 me again.

[Fionordequester]

Anyways, let's get on with what I think of the episodes so far, shall we? Um...it's been a few days, so I'm not sure I'll actually remember very much, therefore I'm probably not going to write as much...but I'll do my best, so, let us begin!

Acting:

Not much to say here. All of them sound good, with Yamcha being a standout role for his extremely wide range of performances in only two episodes.

Music:

My opinion of the Shunsuke Kikuchi music has never really been anything but "eh". In fact, at it's worst, there were times I've found it downright absurd, from it's extremely long periods of poorly placed silence, even in filler scenes that really could've used SOMETHING to make them more interesting, to the way a lot of scenes were handled. Movie 9 for example. It's a movie where you see hapless fighters getting their necks snapped by Bojack's men, yet the music never really seems to reflect that. And even when it kind of, sort of attempted to sound slightly sinister...the songs sounded more mischievous than they did evil. Heck, some of the songs sound downright cheerful, even as Gohan, Vegeta, and the rest of the Z-Fighters are getting the snot beaten out of them! It was to the point where I was actually wondering if Kikuchi was afraid he would scare the kiddies if he made his music too intense...

Not that Team Faulconer wasn't sometimes guilty of that as well...but to me, they didn't seem to be guilty as often.

But as far what I thought of it in Dragon Ball? I have to say...I'M REALLY ENJOYING IT!! Yeah! It sounds about the same as it did in Z, but this time, it feels like it actually belongs here! Not only that, but the placement, at least right now, isn't as repetitive as I remember it being in Kai, to the point where I've only managed to pick out three recurring themes, which would be...

The Really Awesome "On the Road Again" Theme

Evil Pilaf Theme

And of Course, the Intro Theme

Yeah... . So basically, the music so far...well, we'll have to see what I think in the future, but so far, for the very first time, I can honestly say that I'm legitimately enjoying it!

The Characters:

First of all, it really is amazing how...different everyone is when the show first starts. I mean, Ox King is a bad father AND a violent man, Yamcha is robbing people blind, Puar apparently DOESN'T MIND Yamcha robbing people blind (I mean, he seemed so innocent on DBZ!), Oolong is...Oolong, Pilaf and Co. are actually mildly threatening since they're actually threatening people with guns and chainsaws and the like, and Bulma is...still a selfish airhead, but now it's to an extreme that makes her antics in Z look like nothing...

Granted, some of this I think is due to bad writing (as people said, some of the characters change rather suddenly), but, in a way, it's also kind of cool. I've always had a very high view of humanity's potential, despite all the Unit 731's, Joseph Stalin's, and Sex-trafficking rinks of our world, so it's actually kind of nice to look at these characters, and know that all of them are going to end up being really stand up people once Z rolls around...

That said...

The Story:

...when you take THAT out of the equation...I think Toriyama MIGHT have made a mistake in writing so many of the characters in a way that you can't really root for them. I mean, it's kind of hard to really want our protagonists to get the Dragon Balls when I know that Bulma's just going to wish for some shallow relationship with someone she may not even be interested in for very long. And since most of the characters aren't that sympathetic either, that makes Goku the only one you're really able to root for...but he doesn't really even WANT the Dragon Balls for anything. In fact, the only reason he's even tagging along is basically just because he feels like it, so it's hard for me to get too invested in the story...

However, when I say it MIGHT have been a mistake, I do really mean that. Because I also know that Toriyama never meant for the story to last past the Pilaf arc, and if THAT'S the case, then this set-up works perfectly well. I mean, a short story with some gags and dirty jokes here and there to get a quick laugh out of the readers? Not my kind of story, but then, I can't really blame it for being exactly what the author meant for it to be, can I?

Even so, I think I can nitpick some of the writing, as some of the jokes feel a little forced. I mean, Bulma in the very first Chapter for example. The anime and manga both make a point of having Bulma realize that Goku knows nothing about sexual relations or anything like that. She's shy, tells Goku "you'd better not try anything funny!", Goku replies "huh?", and she's all "wait...he doesn't KNOW about that yet? Cool!", giggles about it a bit, etc...

Flash forward a few panels later, and now all of a sudden, she's offering Goku a chance to feel her up? And for an object that we've already established as being the only reminder of the most important person in Goku's life? I mean, I know Bulma's is about as air-headed as she's ever been at this point in the story, but still. And then there's the aforementioned mentioned interactions with Yamcha and Chi-Chi in the last review...

...Even so, I can't deny that these bad jokes are outnumbered by all the really funny and clever material as well, like Bulma soiling her panties in Episode 1, fricken EVERYTHING Yamcha does in Episode 6, Oolong's "harem" turning out to just be a bunch of spoiler little girls constantly asking him for things, Oolong and the "Pee-Pee" pill, Goku asking about Bulma's "2nd Butt" (that one made me LOL really hard when I was reading the Manga), etc...

...Yeah, looking back on it, there was a lot of funny stuff there...huh. I guess having already read them in the manga took some of the punch out of them? You'd think I'dve mentioned it ...

Finally, I guess if I have another problem with the story, not so much as a reviewer, but as a guy with his own interests and tastes...so far the story's a little too episodic for me, just in that there's not really any overarching conflict, or big character moments, or anything like that. The characters are just sort of wandering around, meeting a bunch of wacky people in one episode, then some whole new wacky people in the next, then some new wacky people the next, and etc...but again, that's just me....

Really, it's just so different from Z, in that rather than an action-adventure drama, with huge overarching storylines and villains that take entire seasons to take down, this...is basically a crude comedy that's very episodic. So, that said, what's my rating of the story? Well, I've got two different ones...

As a Critic:

8/10-It's got some really clever jokes and material, good acting, and pretty nifty music! But it also has some forced comedy moments, for some occasionally unpleasant and flat characters, and lack of a compelling narrative. Also, the jokes, while good, kind of lacks in variety. A lot of it falls into the same category of very crude humor.

In other words, good, but not great. Something I might not have kept up with for too long if I didn't know of how wonderful it got later on.

As Myself:

7/10-Same grade, except, a whole point is taken off for the material that I object to.

So, how do you guys feel about that? How do you feel about me as a reviewer? I mean, obviously I have my biases, and of course, my ideology seems to be different from most of the users on this forum...but, apart from that, how do you feel? Any suggestions, compliments...complaints? All these things...I would love to here!

[Fionordequester]

Hmm...no comments huh? Well THAT bums me out! But whatever. How about we get to reviewing...

Dragon Ball Episode 8: The Kamehameha Wave

Well, as I said, Kikuchi's music was actually very effective once again. I swear, every time I hear this...

The Recap Theme

...it makes me feel like I'm about to watch a Christmas Special at my Grandparent's house. And that's a pleasant feeling to have when you have so many warm memories of the past. Unfortunately, as soon as that starts, I see this pic, below...which I do not have a problem with for the reasons you might believe...



...I mean, it's not even like it's all THAT inappropriate (she's 12, probably chose to dress like whatever princess she saw in her story books...whatever). I just look at it, and think "Really Ox King? You seriously sent her out in that?!?".

But again, nitpicks, nothing important. I will say though that there's more odd dialogue afloat. Like Roshi, when he greets Chi Chi...

Say...did the girl with you shrink or something? The last time I saw her, her breasts were a lot bigger...BOING, BOING-UGGGGGHHHHHH!!! (he says as he makes groping hand movements)

... Yeah, sure Roshi. Bulma just spontaneously grew out her hair, dyed it blue, then took a shrinking capsule, then decided to walk out in a g-string... ... ...

Ok, so your idea isn't as absurd as I thought, but still! Think before you speak! That said though, I love this moment here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcf0h_AjPoI

I remember enough about the manga to remember that the Anime took a slight liberty here, but, fortunately, it's just as funny as it was originally! Master Roshi falls into the cliched "senses an attack before it comes" trope unlike the Manga, but to make up for that, the blade simply cuts through his staff instead of being deflected like it should. So expectations are still subverted, and the trope is still mocked...everything is good!

Now, here's where I get to what impressed me most about the episode. We all know about some of the exaggerated gags in Anime, right? Where someone will get beaten black and blue by their love interest, only to look completely fine in the next scene, and all that? Or something similar to that? Well, Master Roshi's got this giant band-aid on his head...but it doesn't disappear the way you would expect it to. It's there as a gag, and yet, in a surprising bit of continuity, it's there in every scene after Chi Chi's attack...









But, it DOES go away at some point. When does it go away? Well, check out the GIF below...



Yes, that's right. Not only is the band-aid a funny visual gag, but in a surprise twist of creativity, it also a visual representation of how Roshi suddenly turns from nothing but comic relief, to an extremely powerful, fearsome warrior. And that's what brings me to what I liked best about the episode...

The direction here, during the Kamehameha scene, is absolutely amazing. Not only does Roshi look awesome, but in addition to the band-aid, the difference between Roshi now, and the way he was in every other scene is also further emphasized by the clash between how Roshi is drawn, and how everyone else is drawn...so let me explain. We know for the most part that, at least relative to DBZ, the character designs are really simple right?



I mean, I'd say that's about right. Fairly flat, anime faces, not a ton of shading, very rounded proportions...basically, the typical way that Dragon Ball usually looks. But then we cut back to Roshi and...



BOOM! Now all of a sudden, we have muscle mass that's much more detailed, EXTREMELY heavy use of shading, very thick black lines...heck, even the nipples are drawn in more detail! Basically, Roshi looks like he came straight out of Fist of the North Star, or some other entirely different cartoon. Then...





We go back to the very simple, rounded style with minimal amounts of shading...





Then back to super detailed, "even the fingernails are heavily detailed" artwork that's just slathered in extremely thick splotches of black. And finally-



BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!



Look at those LIGHTS!!



And then Roshi, once out of "Ultimate Warrior" mode, is now drawn the same way as everyone else. Whereas before, the gulf in their powers were so different, that even the way Roshi was drawn was different, he's now back to being a goofy dude, and therefore, the same as everyone else. THAT is good art direction right there!

Finally, I liked the exchange Bulma and Oolong had when Bulma was trying to get out of getting poked by Roshi...only for Oolong (wearing Bulma's appearance) to play everything up, and make her look like a complete whore as kind of a "screw you" to her...or at least, that's how I took it. Truth be told, I skipped watching the rest of it after it looked like Oolong was going to flash the audience with his boobs.

So, the positives out of the way, back to the negative stuff. Again, I think the crass humor is kind of running it's course, not just because of what I think about it, but because Toriyama's been telling the same kinds of jokes since the very beginning. So in addition to making me wince, I'm now wondering "alright fine, can I get some other jokes please?". Basically, I feel like he's over-relying on crass humor.

And of course, some of the actions taken by the characters don't make any sense unless you take them as complete airheads. I mean, we've got Goku blasting Bulma's car, Roshi never stopping to think that maybe firing the Kamehameha straight at the mountain wasn't a good idea, Roshi going off on some weird tangent about Chi-Chi's "chi chi's", Roshi thinking Chi Chi was a shrunken Bulma, Roshi indicting Ox King with murder only to help him out anyway for...no discernable reason...

I mean jeez, I hear a lot of Japanese fans complain about stuff like "CAT LOVES FOOD, YUH YEAH YEEEAH!", Frieza caressing his balls, Tien yelling about how he's gonna grow his arm back...this...

Yet, no one complains about how nonsensical some of the dialogue is in Dragon Ball? I'll tell you one thing, I got just as confused listening to some of the dialogue in this show as I ever did listening to the FUNImation dub of Z, though to be fair, Dragon Ball is going for something completely different than Z was, so if you want to say that Dragon Ball Z was too serious a show to have that sort of stuff...alright. I've just always found it odd that Japanese fans complain about the silliness of the FUNI dub dialogue, when really...it seems to me that that's just par for the course as far as Dragon Ball goes...

And I'm not even saying that that's a bad thing really. I'm just watching this, and thinking "is there really such a big difference between what we're getting here, and what the FUNI dub gave us in Z?" I mean, I've watched a ton of Japanese and FUNI episodes of Z back to back, so I know that obviously a ton of lines were changed. But in terms of the overall tone? I'm...really not seeing the big difference. I won't say there's not ANY difference (some of the Japanese episodes do have a more somber and listless tone, I will admit), but I don't think the difference is that significant. Yes, Dragon Ball isn't all cheese and camp, but then, neither is the FUNI dub of Z.

But, my ramblings and nitpicks aside...I liked this episode! Very well directed, more funny jokes, and less characters acting like jerkwads...all these things I enjoy!

[dbboxkaifan]

Those screenshots.. that quality.. Fion, don't you know how to take proper screenshots?

[Fionordequester]

Apparently not. How do you do it? I've been upsizing the screenshots, but only because I felt like the larger pictures were more asthetically pleasing than the smaller ones. Though, I guess it doesn't not work as well for this as that does for video game LP's. I'll admit, some of them do look kind of grainy...

So what would you suggest? I would immensely appreciate any help, as I always want to get better, and I do want to get rid of that grain!