"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[Appūru-sama]

Toriyama has become the Japanese George Lucas.

The only way Dragonball Minus could have been worse is if he just reconned Bardock into a fucking scientist on Rigel-7 who invents a technique for Saiyans to go Oozaru without needing the moon. Then we'd at least go full circle in bullshit.

And the Bardock TV special was SO canon. Toriyama in his prime liked it so much he incorporated IN the manga:


Seriously, Toriyama needs to put the pen down and just leeeeeeave DB alone. Jaco seemed to have promise before SURPRISE IT'S REALLY DRAGONBALL YAYY GIMME YOUR MONEY!!!1! Watch his next manga be about Vegeta's mom playing hooky with Whis and Babidi as they go on an intergalactic pudding spree together. Fuck this.

[RandomGuy96]

I just noticed: Goku's origin is even MORE Superman-esque now.

[MagicBox]

And the Bardock TV special was SO canon. Toriyama in his prime liked it so much he incorporated IN the manga.

For two panels. Like I said, all we know from those two panels is that Burdock 1.) ... nevermind. Not again.

I guess I understand how something like this can be hard for fans. Like Gyt Kaliba said, the Burdock TV special has been "the gospel" for nearly 25 years. I love it, too. And people are welcome to hate the Minus chapter. Heck, I haven't even read it yet; I could very well be rioting along with everyone else in twelve hours when Viz releases it. I just hope everyone understands that it's totally fair game for Toriyama to do this. Nothing in those two panels of the manga is contradicted and the fantastic TV special isn't going anywhere. Now, if they go and actually animate Dragon Ball Minus and pass it off as what really happened in the cartoon, then yeah, we've got a retcon on our hands. But right now, we've just got a little Dragon Ball story that's told differently in its respective manga and anime versions. It's happened before.

Jaco seemed to have promise before SURPRISE IT'S REALLY DRAGONBALL YAYY GIMME YOUR MONEY!!!1!

The connection to Dragon Ball was never a surprise. Toriyama hinted at it and Shueisha confirmed it as soon as we got the first chapter. All the fans knew what they were getting into from day one. I feel that, regardless of your feelings about Jaco or the Minus chapter, that's one thing you can't blame Toriyama for.

[Kid Buu]

I just noticed: Goku's origin is even MORE Superman-esque now.

How so? I'm actually not too familiar with Superman outside the first Christopher Reeve film.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

So, after reading Kanzenshuu's summary on 'DB Minus' all I have to say is:
It's neat to have Toriyama's take on the very, very start of the series and sort of have an "official" prologue for the manga, if that makes any sense. It's also nice to see that Raditz wasn't forgotten about, but...

You'll always be my 'DB Minus'.

Seriously, I watched it yesterday. The thing is almost perfect- one of the greatest pieces of animation to come out of the franchise.

[Low Tone G]

I don't understand Toriyama's behaviour, he tends to become infantile more and more. He included Bardock's legendary panel when Bardock tried to resist to Freeza in his own manga, but now makes the things even worse than they were with the introduction of Episode of Bardock. And the popular belief that Kakarotto was sent Earth to destroy it, but became a hero afterwards was also erased from the existence. Or am I misunderstanding something?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And the popular belief that Kakarotto was sent Earth to destroy it, but became a hero afterwards was also erased from the existence.

He was still sent to destroy the Earth.

[Saiga]

I just noticed: Goku's origin is even MORE Superman-esque now.

How so? I'm actually not too familiar with Superman outside the first Christopher Reeve film.

The reason Goku is sent to Earth has been changed to something damn near identical to Superman's: his father correctly predicts a great catastrophe that no one else does (Freeza in DB, varying source in Superman's continuities) and sends him to Earth to save him.

[Tzigi]

This image has made me realise just how god-awful the art in DB- looks. I have created a small comparison gif showcasing different renditions of Bardock's profile:

Some are flipped horizontaly but other then this (and a bit of resizing - so as to make the comparison more natural) I did nothing with them. Now you can see that Bardock looks here worse then everywhere else - I have seen lots of doujinshi that look better then this...

[Luso Saiyan]

Toriyama liked the special, enough so that he incorporated Bardock into the manga.

I think that's the core of the "controversy". I've always liked the TV special ever since I was a kid, but since then, I (and certainly many others) treated it differently because Toriyama himself liked and was impressed by it so much that he put it into the manga (sure, for two panels, but it's implied that those events happened because there was no reason for him to draw the whole special when Frieza could only remember him from his last stand).

And it's true that Toriyama always said that even if he were to tell the same story, it would always be different in tone. However, even though there is one month between Minus and Vegeta's destruction, it looks (to me) like the special is a bit more compatible with what we see in the manga than Minus.

Seriously, Toriyama needs to put the pen down and just leeeeeeave DB alone.

What the...?! Who are you to say that the creator of the series needs to leave it?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

This image has made me realise just how god-awful the art in DB- looks. I have created a small comparison gif showcasing different renditions of Bardock's profile...
...Now you can see that Bardock looks here worse then everywhere else - I have seen lots of doujinshi that look better then this...

No. Just no. lol

Bardock obviously looks the best in the TV Special, because that's how he debuted and stayed for many years since he had barely appeared in any material for a long time. For just the profile though, because I admit seeing the originally buff characters with a super thin body is odd, the DB- version is leagues ahead of Yamamuro's blocky and stiff art style in the animated Episode of Bardock and Ooishi's underwhelming ability to understand Dragon Ball faces (that don't belong to Freeza type characters) in the manga version.

[hleV]

I like how the inclusion of two panels seemingly from Bardock Special shots (which likely fit Toriyama's own idea of how the destruction of Planet Vegeta happened) to the manga made everyone think that Toriyama considers the whole Bardock Special to be true to the original story.

[Marco Polo]

No. Just no. lol

Bardock obviously looks the best in the TV Special, because that's how he debuted and stayed for many years since he had barely appeared in any material for a long time. For just the profile though, because I admit seeing the originally buff characters with a super thin body is odd, the DB- version is leagues ahead of Yamamuro's blocky and stiff art style in the animated Episode of Bardock and Ooishi's underwhelming ability to understand Dragon Ball faces (that don't belong to Freeza type characters) in the manga version.

Agreed. I don't mind the art in DB- at all. Raditz maaaaybe looks a bit strange, but then again he is a KID here.

[shinmaru]

Toriyama needs to be under pressure to make a good story,and that won't happen again.
Maybe Toyble can make one i think hes dragonball future.

[Flame Dragon]

Honestly this is stupid. Toriyama knew of the Bardock special and now he created a useless retcon that was not needed at all.

Also, it also makes a plothole in that the manga and anime show Grandpa Gohan finding Goku as a baby, and now he's 3 years old.
Not to mention that the Gine and Bardock scene is pretty much a redo of this www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B5UwaVfL3g, the scene where Clark's father and his wife send Clark to earth... pretty much the same.

This was not needed, it's useless junk, on par with Episode of Bardock, and only serves to make the original story even more of a clusterfuck.
Creating plotholes for the sake of creating plotholes... why fix what is not broken?

Honestly, i will just make my head canon with DB Original Anime-DB Kai and all the movies and Tv Specials and call it a day, i won't trust Toriyama anymore, at least until he decides to create a damn timeline for his stuff.

He needs to make an official timeline with what is canon and what is not, because the story is a clusterfuck, it's becoming a clusterfuck on the same level as superhero comics, except those are excused because at least they are written by one hundred different authors.
I'm getting annoyed at stuff like this, i will probably drop the series for good in a few years since all this inconcistency really makes my interest go down.

[Blade]

because the story is a clusterfuck.

Quite like your rambling, barely coherent post.

I get it, I can see that you're angry about this latest work as a lot of people are - I too have grave misgivings about it, but frankly, I feel that both your dignity and the quality of discussion would be best served if you were to take a minute and compose your thoughts before sitting in front of a keyboard and spewing out a diatribe.

[MagicBox]

Also, it also makes a plothole in that the manga and anime show Grandpa Gohan finding Goku as a baby, and now he's 3 years old.

When does the manga show this, exactly?

He needs to make an official timeline with what is canon and what is not.

There is absolutely zero need for Toriyama, Shueisha, or Toei to do that.

I'm not going to criticize anyone's honest opinion, and I do like that we're able to discuss this without any serious arguments. I am a tad surprised that this is the thing that makes certain fans say "enough is enough," though. The whole chapter itself seems to be intended as a mere afterthought for both Jaco and Dragon Ball. Perhaps that's why people are getting so upset? Because of such a "big" prequel being released as a "Oh yeah, this happened" bonus feature?

[JeffJarrett]

The series, the guide books, etc. everything was seemingly coherent until BoG was released and introduced unconsistent birthdates and timeframes. And now Dragon Ball Minus confirms that every dates are now inconherant. Even if we only consider the manga, Dragon Ball Minus is not coherent with Goku's age and the years separating Goku and Bulma's birthdates in Dragon Ball.

[B]

Perhaps that's why people are getting so upset? Because of such a "big" prequel being released as a "Oh yeah, this happened" bonus feature?

That seems to be the case. Toriyama doesn't dwell, or at least enjoy dwelling, in the heavy. The anime and the various films and deluge of fighting games have all fought that aspect, of course, and they've indoctrinated folks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The manga never showed Gohan finding Goku, that was anime-only. DB- doesn't create any plot-holes, the TV Special does by showing Gohan finding a cute Goku instead of a violent Goku.

He needs to make an official timeline with what is canon and what is not.

There is absolutely zero need for Toriyama, Shueisha, or Toei to do that.

We already have one for the anime, actually. It covers DB (plus fillers), DBZ (plus fillers, TV Specials 1 & 2, Movies 1 & 5, JSAT, EoB, and BoG), and GT (plus TV Special).