"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[VegettoEX]

It's more DB than it is Jaco, and while I think you get slightly more out of it having read Jaco, it's far from being essential.

[MagicBox]

What do we do now? Change all anime versions to follow the retcon? Kinda dumb especially since DB Kai, the version that was SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THE MANGA, already covered this scene.

I'm not really sure what you're asking for here. Dragon Ball Kai started five years ago; how were they to know that Toriyama would tell an origin story half a decade later? Besides, a lot of fans thought that starting Kai with the Burdock stuff was a very odd/confusing choice, so take that however you will.

I hesitate to call this a retcon, by the way. Toriyama's never told a story with Burdock before, and thus, he's not changing any established facts from his comic. He shouldn't have to limit himself by following what Toei did (especially when they only told their story by piecing together vague clues from the manga in the first place). I'm sure they would have loved to have the Minus chapter back in 1990.

So what now? Everybody that saw this scene from the anime is wrong? So now if a fan says "this is how Goku was born", now he can get told there are two versions of the Bardock special that are completely different, and that the anime version that he watched was false. Wouldn't that fan feel bad for discovering this? Who's in the right now? Who's wrong? Who knows.

I don't understand this concern with being "wrong." Are you worried about fans making fun of you for prefering one version over another? Toei took bits and pieces from the manga and told their interpretation of Goku's origin story. Toriyama told his interpretation separate from the cartoon. Both versions are "right." That hypothetical fan you mentioned isn't going to "feel bad" for discovering that the Minus chapter exists. Gaining knowledge and context is never a bad thing. The only one who should feel bad is whoever would rudely tell him that either the anime or manga is "false," because anyone who does that is a kill-joy.

What Raditz tells Goku when they meet, about Goku's "mission" to kill the Earthlings and conquer the planet, doesn't make much sense now,does it? Roshi is talking about baby Goku being discovered in the woods by Grandpa Gohan, not a 3 year old toddler in a suit of space armor.

As far as I'm concerned, these are too easily explained to be considered "plotholes." Raditz had every right to believe that Goku had been given a mission to conquer Earth; he clearly says that Saiyans send their children to do exactly that. Why else would he have been sent there? Burdock was being very secretive about that whole "Hey, Freeza's up to something" hypothesis of his. He probably just told Raditz to stay put where he was and that his little brother had been sent to Earth. He wasn't going to explain why; why would he need to as long as his sons are safe?

This chapter also explains why Raditz imagines Goku as a newborn (sans armor) when he arrives on Earth; he's only ever seen him floating in the incubation chamber.

And I think that "baby" line is being taken too seriously. Anyone over the age of five sees a kid that young and immediately thinks "baby." You might hear the word "toddler" thrown around if you're talking to a group of moms, but I hardly think using the word "baby" creates a plothole. As mentioned earlier, let's not forget that Muten Roshi is the one talking here. A three-year-old is a baby in the eyes of a 300-year-old geezer.

It doesn't even make sense now for Goku to have amnesia after his head injury, what exactly did his saiyan parents teach him? Nothing.

So then... how did it make sense before? Before Jaco, everyone assumed Goku was sent to Earth as a newborn. What exactly is a newborn going to lose when he gets amnesia? Newborns don't know anything.

Even if Goku wasn't given a mission to conquer Earth, that's what was ultimately going to happen. Saiyans are a warrior race; Kakarrotto was going to grow up to be a very, very violent person. He was a very real threat to the planet. It's outright stated in both Dragon Ball and Jaco: pre-amnesia Goku was a little asshole. The head injury turned him into a nice person. Whether he was given a mission or not, he absolutely needed that bump on the head. It still makes sense.

I feel like you should at least make an effort to develop your new characters and take the time to write dialogue that actually sounds like it belongs in the franchise and not some pre-school fan fiction. Perhaps that's a translation issue but even in terms of structure and basic logic, it was heavily flawed.

I actually do agree with this. I don't know if it was Viz's translation or not, but I did think some of the dialogue was a little awkwardly written and I would have liked to see a personality from Gine. I may be defending Minus, but I certainly don't think it was a masterpiece.

I'll be the weirdo and say that I actually did enjoy how Burdock was portrayed. He's still shown as a blood-thirsty Saiyan warrior, slaughtering aliens. I enjoyed his "whatever" attitude to the Saiyans who tried to talk to him. He may have a soft spot for his family, but he was still acting like a dick to everyone else. You can only do so much in 16 pages, but I didn't feel like the character was being betrayed as much as people are saying.

Vegeta saved because of not following orders also contradicts what was said by Dodoria or Freeza in the manga: Freeza wanting to keep Prince Vegeta because he was a strong warrior and, so, destroying Planet Vegeta while Prince Vegeta wasn't there.

I still think this works fine. Once Freeza found out Vegeta was still alive, he could have just shrugged it off and thought "Well, I guess I can keep him around for now." It's easier to keep an eye on a handful of Saiyans than it is to keep track of thousands.

Bleh, I normally try to stay away from this "in-universe" stuff. My head...

[medama_oyaji]

Guys, Goku was obviously sent to Earth both to be saved and to destroy it. I think it's very obvious given to what we know.

This was what I was thinking. He is still an "infiltrator baby."

I didn't get this sense at all when I read it. When Gine says "Being an infiltration baby can be very dangerous!" she doesn't yet understand Bardock's intentions. And Bardock specifically warns Goku not to look at the moon...

A positive I can say about this chapter is that I liked the art. It was cool to see a Saiyan village, their homes look typical for Toriyama but with even MORE little round windows, and maybe a little more organic. They kinda look like the big bugs from Nausicaa. I also like the panel of little Vegeta & Radditz. But where's Nappa (or Tarble for that matter, ha ha)? I was super curious to see if Nappa would be bald even as a child I also like the drawing of Goku in the incubator. Very cute!

Flipping through the chapter again, I'm also noticing the background Saiyans, like that other lady in Gine's shop. I thought the background characters was something that Toriyama really excelled at with Jaco as well. Looks like he's having fun.

[Tanooki Kuribo]

I just read it. I don't think I liked it, and that's a shame cause I love Bardock! It seems you really just have an option here on what origin story feels right for you. DB- and the Bardock TV Special apparently can't co-exists, you have to pick one and just go with it. And me, I pick the Bardock TV Special.

[eledoremassis02]

I just read it. I don't think I liked it, and that's a shame cause I love Bardock! It seems you really just have an option here on what origin story feels right for you. DB- and the Bardock TV Special apparently can't co-exists, you have to pick one and just go with it. And me, I pick the Bardock TV Special.

This was a lot different than what I expected and a lot different than the special. It's a mixed bag for me. I think it would have been cool to see an extended version of the special where say...Bardock goes to find his wife and tells her about Goku leaving and how he's going to fight Frieza and she warms him not to do so because she's worried he won't survive in his condition or something and mentioning how he must have changed since he wants to save the Saiyans (who have no problem killing their own) and Bardock saying (like in the manga) "I must have gotten it from you because you're such a softy" . The special had some building up and a tragic story line.

This manga not so much. But then again this is Toriyama and Dragon Ball so that's where I say it's a mixed bag.

As for Goku being older. It does kinda change the whole way you think about Dragon Ball since what we've known. I mean Goku still wont remember anything anyway with maybe seeing his parents once.

[B]

Finally read it, it wasn't bad, perhaps inconsequential. It didn't undo Episode of Bardock like I had thought it did.

[RandomGuy96]

Does EOB even fit as-is? In EOB, Freeza uses a different attack to destroy Vegeta than he does in the manga flashback.

[Jackal puFF]

Not really fond of Goku being 3 when he was sent to Earth.. It just messes with your brain.. That kind of retcon. Like it really makes you think haha.. I totally expected a better looking Gine. Nothing special really.

[SaiyamanMS]

I loved Jaco. Battle of Gods too. Even in his forgetful old age, Toriyama is still a master of writing his own characters. Bardock however, isn't his character. If we had never met him before, I'd say this was a fine little addition, but the story of the Bardock TV special was done so much better and it's a shame to see it pretty much entirely tossed to the side by this.

Episode of Bardock wasn't all that great either, but Ooishi didn't toss out the whole special with her story and the Bardock portrayed there had at least a bit more semblance to his animated counterpart. (In fact, Toriyama's Bardock here seems to be going even more in the softer direction EoB portrayed.)

[RocktheDragon]

Even though I'm not a fan of Dragon Ball Minus, I have to say that it's nice to have something new to talk about in the DB universe. It's great to see the variety of reactions, on either side. And I think that whatever your opinion might be on this special one off chapter, it has at least provided us with a fresh topic to discuss (beats going over redundant topics that have been done to death).

[Blade]

Just gonna call this now, but I think we'll see a 20-30 minute Anime special ala Episode of Bardock for Dragonball Minus.

I think the fact they went the way they did with the 'Vomic' for Jaco makes a traditionally animated feature less likely for those chapters.

[Makaioshin]

Just gonna call this now, but I think we'll see a 20-30 minute Anime special ala Episode of Bardock for Dragonball Minus.

I think the fact they went the way they did with the 'Vomic' for Jaco makes a traditionally animated feature less likely for those chapters.

There really isn't enough going on in Minus itself to make a special out of it. If anything I say we'll get a Jaco animated special that starts with Minus and ends with the last chapter of Jaco.

[Blade]

Just gonna call this now, but I think we'll see a 20-30 minute Anime special ala Episode of Bardock for Dragonball Minus.

I think the fact they went the way they did with the 'Vomic' for Jaco makes a traditionally animated feature less likely for those chapters.

There really isn't enough going on in Minus itself to make a special out of it. If anything I say we'll get a Jaco animated special that starts with Minus and ends with the last chapter of Jaco.

You wouldn't think so, would you? But keep in mind that Toei are the true masters of stretching out paltry chapters of manga into episodes. See One Piece.

[B]

I could see a final, solitary special that tells the entirety of Jaco, including DB-. I don't think Minus will get one by itself because it's so short, they would basically need to write a story for what Bardock was doing on that planet before being called back to Vegeta, and I'm not sure Jaco would get animated without an explicit Dragon Ball connection.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I think the 12 Jaco chapters are too long to be adapted as a typical, single special though, and DB- itself is too short as is. Honestly, I'm not sure anything related to Jaco will get animated, but after the awesomeness that is this promotional video, I want them too.

If they only want a full Dragon Ball focused special, they could stretch out DB- into one if they add content to it. They could extend the opening battle with Bardock and end with part of chapter 11 of Jaco, showing Goku landing on Earth and a small cameo of Jaco's failure too. If they wanted to actually extend the story, I would prefer if they had Toriyama be the one to contribute the ideas though...maybe with the King and Queen? Or Nappa? Some minor Beerus interactions with Freeza? The actual battle with Freeza attacking planet Vegeta?

[Freeza Soldier #156]

Just gonna call this now, but I think we'll see a 20-30 minute Anime special ala Episode of Bardock for Dragonball Minus.

I think the fact they went the way they did with the 'Vomic' for Jaco makes a traditionally animated feature less likely for those chapters.

There really isn't enough going on in Minus itself to make a special out of it. If anything I say we'll get a Jaco animated special that starts with Minus and ends with the last chapter of Jaco.

You wouldn't think so, would you? But keep in mind that Toei are the true masters of stretching out paltry chapters of manga into episodes. See One Piece.

Very true. Let's not forget the Trunks special. They took a 19 page side story and turned it into a 45+ minute special.

[Luso Saiyan]

Finally read it, it wasn't bad, perhaps inconsequential. It didn't undo Episode of Bardock like I had thought it did.

The problem is not with Episode of Bardock, but with the TV special.

[Marco Polo]

Why do people say Nappa is not in DB-? He's the guy who greets Bardock when Bardock arrives on planet Vegeta.

[Mewzard]

Finally read it, it wasn't bad, perhaps inconsequential. It didn't undo Episode of Bardock like I had thought it did.

The problem is not with Episode of Bardock, but with the TV special.

Outside of drawing a shot of Bardock and having him killed by Freeza, nothing else of the special was used in the manga, so he was free to do whatever he wanted with it. It's his story. Hell, if you want to complain about this, why not criticize Toei from completely changing Trunks' Origin from the manga version?

I rather liked Trunks already being SSJ prior to Gohan's death. The world was horrible enough to push a Saiyan to change, but even as a SSJ, he would have just been a dead body if he went with Gohan (it was far more of a massacre in the manga).

The Barduck special still exists if you want to watch it, it just doesn't gel with the continuity that Toriyama is establishing post-Original manga. Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return, Battle of Gods, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and DB Minus...Dunno if DB Online's story ideas are still in and if EoB counts.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Dunno if DB Online's story ideas are still in and if EoB counts.

Episode of Bardock would be implied not to count since it is a continuation of the TV Special, but I suppose it doesn't have to be removed. The only real issue that could remove it is the content with Bardock's TV Special team.

DBO has baby arriving in AGE 737, so it's out.