"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[Marco Polo]

Raditz and Nappa have equal status, so I don't know why you guys think Bardock is a lower class Saiyan than anyone else.

Q7: What’s the pecking order among Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz?

Only Vegeta is royalty, but…
Vegeta is the prince and so he has a higher position due to strength. But Raditz and Nappa have equal status.

[garnetjester]

Well, he's supposed to be a low class warrior, so he's at least lower than Vegeta. Vegeta yaps all the time about Kakarotto being a low class warrior while he's super elite, so there's that too. It seems that there are some power classes among saiyans but we don't really have the details about how they work.

[auspx]

Raditz and Nappa have equal status, so I don't know why you guys think Bardock is a lower class Saiyan than anyone else.

Q7: What’s the pecking order among Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz?

Only Vegeta is royalty, but…
Vegeta is the prince and so he has a higher position due to strength. But Raditz and Nappa have equal status.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -super-qa/

"About how high was Bardock’s battle power, ultimately? (In Episode of Bardock) Also, if he hadn’t been defeated by Freeza and had continued his growth, about how strong would he have gotten?"

"To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.
This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted."

If AT meant that saiyans like Raditz = low class, Nappa = mid class, Vegeta = elite, then Bardock must be weaker than Nappa. And no matter how much Bardock trained or how many zenkais he got he will never become a mid-class warrior... This contradicts the Bardock TV Special (where Bardock's PL is 10,000) and the entire Episode of Bardock.

[auspx]

Well, he's supposed to be a low class warrior, so he's at least lower than Vegeta. Vegeta yaps all the time about Kakarotto being a low class warrior while he's super elite, so there's that too. It seems that there are some power classes among saiyans but we don't really have the details about how they work.

In the beginning of DBZ Goku really was a low-class. His PL was only ~400. After training with Kaiosama in 10x Earth's gravity his PL increased to "over 8000" and probably over 32,000 with kaioken x4. This should put him well into the elite territory.

[Luso Saiyan]

If AT meant that saiyans like Raditz = low class, Nappa = mid class, Vegeta = elite, then Bardock must be weaker than Nappa. And no matter how much Bardock trained or how many zenkais he got he will never become a mid-class warrior... This contradicts the Bardock TV Special (where Bardock's PL is 10,000) and the entire Episode of Bardock.

AT never stated that Nappa was mid-class, nor did he explain why Bardock wasn't able to become a mid-class Saiyan. What we know is that Bardock was at the top of the low-class. We don't know what's the power level for one to be considered a mid-class, therefore Bardock having a power level of 10,000 doesn't contradict anything (unless Vegeta had a similar power level as an adult, which was not the case).

[auspx]

If AT meant that saiyans like Raditz = low class, Nappa = mid class, Vegeta = elite, then Bardock must be weaker than Nappa. And no matter how much Bardock trained or how many zenkais he got he will never become a mid-class warrior... This contradicts the Bardock TV Special (where Bardock's PL is 10,000) and the entire Episode of Bardock.

AT never stated that Nappa was mid-class, nor did he explain why Bardock wasn't able to become a mid-class Saiyan. What we know is that Bardock was at the top of the low-class. We don't know what's the power level for one to be considered a mid-class, therefore Bardock having a power level of 10,000 doesn't contradict anything (unless Vegeta had a similar power level as an adult, which was not the case).

"And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta."

So either Nappa was a mid-class or a low-class. And it doesn't make much sense for Nappa to be a low-class when he was much stronger than Raditz and still thought that he could defeat an opponent (Goku) whose PL was "over 8000".

[Luso Saiyan]

And it doesn't make much sense for Nappa to be a low-class when he was much stronger than Raditz

Why? Almost all Saiyans are low-class which implies a large range of power level values. And even if it didn't, there will always be low-class Saiyans more powerful than others. As for him believing he could defeat an opponent with a power level of 8000 only speaks about his overconfidence/arrogance.

[RandomGuy96]

Except in the manga itself, Nappa explicitly distinguished between Raditz, a low class, and himself, an elite.

That just doesn't apply anymore at the start of the saiyan arc, since every saiyan but Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz is dead or not in Freeza's service, so they'd be equals in status, since their class system doesn't exist anymore.

average low class warrior < Raditz < Bardock < Nappa

[auspx]

And it doesn't make much sense for Nappa to be a low-class when he was much stronger than Raditz

Why? Almost all Saiyans are low-class which implies a large range of power level values. And even if it didn't, there will always be low-class Saiyans more powerful than others. As for him believing he could defeat an opponent with a power level of 8000 only speaks about his overconfidence/arrogance.

No, that doesn't make sense. Remember that Raditz tried to recruit Goku when Goku's PL was only ~400 (even less than 400 with the heavy clothes on). Goku was incredibly weak by DBZ standards and yet Raditz still thought that Goku would be a useful ally on their team. Raditz never told Goku "you are too weak to be of any use to us".

This implies two things:
1) Raditz may have been in the upper ranks of the low-class warriors.
2) Many of the low-class saiyans may have had PLs well under 1500.

I don't see why they wouldn't... considering that a PL under 1500 was enough to: blow up mountains (see Piccolo vs Raditz), destroy an entire city with several ki blasts (see Piccolo Daimao vs kid Goku) and even blow up the Moon (Roshi did it during the 21st Martial Arts Tournament and as we saw in DBZ Roshi's PL was what? Less than 150.)

So was Nappa a low-class or a mid-class warrior? Well if we count anime only filler then there's no way that Nappa could be a low-class. After all he was assigned to provide adult supervision to kid Vegeta. It just wouldn't make sense to appoint someone weak to do a job like that. If we don't count anime only filler it still doesn't make sense for Nappa to be a low class. The fact is, Nappa thought that he could fight an opponent whose PL was "over 8000" and Goku had to use the kaioken to defeat Nappa quickly. I know what the various guidebooks say (that Nappa's PL was only 4000) and that makes no sense at all. Nappa must have been very close to 8000 himself. That's a bit too much for a low-class warrior but it does make sense for a mid-class warrior to be that powerful. And we know that Vegeta with his PL of 18,000 was an elite. Then what is a mid-class PL? Probably something between 4000 to 9999.

[RandomGuy96]

The fact is, Nappa thought that he could fight an opponent whose PL was "over 8000" and Goku had to use the kaioken to defeat Nappa quickly. I know what the various guidebooks say (that Nappa's PL was only 4000) and that makes no sense at all. Nappa must have been very close to 8000 himself.

Not really, no. Nappa couldn't even lay a finger on Goku, even when Goku was suppressed to 5,000, so at the very least he can't be anywhere near that number. And he rather explicitly said that he thought that the scouter was broken or wrong after he heard the reading it gave for Goku.

But I don't see why this is a discussion. Nappa explicitly called himself an elite and a member of the nobility, and considers himself above low class warriors.

[Luso Saiyan]

Except in the manga itself, Nappa explicitly distinguished between Raditz, a low class, and himself, an elite.

Well, he definitely isn't an elite, according to Toriyama. And it's no confirmation that he's a mid-class either. It's a fact that he's more powerful than Raditz, but everything else is open to speculation.

Not to mention that Bardock's power level only reached nearly 10,000 during the events of the TV special, so that could explain why he was never promoted to mid-class status.

Either way, for now Bardock's power level doesn't contradict anything.

No, that doesn't make sense. Remember that Raditz tried to recruit Goku when Goku's PL was only ~400 (even less than 400 with the heavy clothes on). Goku was incredibly weak by DBZ standards and yet Raditz still thought that Goku would be a useful ally on their team. Raditz never told Goku "you are too weak to be of any use to us".

That's probably because he wasn't, despite his low power level when compared to his.

This implies two things:
1) Raditz may have been in the upper ranks of the low-class warriors.

I don't see how it can imply that.

2) Many of the low-class saiyans may have had PLs well under 1500.

Yes, that's a given.

I don't see why they wouldn't... considering that a PL under 1500 was enough to: blow up mountains (see Piccolo vs Raditz), destroy an entire city with several ki blasts (see Piccolo Daimao vs kid Goku) and even blow up the Moon (Roshi did it during the 21st Martial Arts Tournament and as we saw in DBZ Roshi's PL was what? Less than 150.)

Indeed.

If we don't count anime only filler it still doesn't make sense for Nappa to be a low class.

We don't know up to what power level a Saiyan can be considered low-class, so you can't claim that it doesn't make sense.

Nappa must have been very close to 8000 himself.

Toriyama says otherwise, and he's the only valid source for Nappa's power level (or for any other character). If in the future Toriyama states Bardock' specific power level, or at what value one can be promoted to mid-class, we can confirm if what was presented in the TV special contradicts anything. But for now, it doesn't.

[Kamiccolo9]

Concerning Nappa, if Toriyama's interview, made 20 years after the fact, contradicts something said in the manga, then I'm going with what's said in the manga. This interview saying that Nappa and Raditz are on the same level, and the other one concerning Bardock's power level which says that Vegeta and his father were the only elites both contradict Nappa being stated to be an elite in the manga.

[Luso Saiyan]

Concerning Nappa, if Toriyama's interview, made 20 years after the fact, contradicts something said in the manga, then I'm going with what's said in the manga. This interview saying that Nappa and Raditz are on the same level,

He says Nappa and Raditz have equal status (in comparison with Vegeta). And the manga corroborates that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Concerning Nappa, if Toriyama's interview, made 20 years after the fact, contradicts something said in the manga, then I'm going with what's said in the manga. This interview saying that Nappa and Raditz are on the same level,

He says Nappa and Raditz have equal status (in comparison with Vegeta). And the manga corroborates that.

And the other interview? The one that says that Vegeta and his father are the only elites?

[Luso Saiyan]

And the other interview? The one that says that Vegeta and his father are the only elites?

One can assume that Nappa was bragging in order to intimidate Goku, which fits the character.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, he definitely isn't an elite, according to Toriyama. And it's no confirmation that he's a mid-class either. It's a fact that he's more powerful than Raditz, but everything else is open to speculation.

Not to mention that Bardock's power level only reached nearly 10,000 during the events of the TV special, so that could explain why he was never promoted to mid-class status.

Either way, for now Bardock's power level doesn't contradict anything.

No, he is an elite. We know that, it's stated manga fact.This is just Toriyama using a different naming scheme, whereas the one used in-universe by the saiyans is more ego-centric. For example, Toriyama calls Vegeta an elite. Vegeta calls himself a super-elite.

Bardock = low class

Nappa = mid-class/elite

Vegeta = elite/super-elite

10,000 would make him far stronger than Nappa and anyone in his tier. Nappa was an elite. Bardock was a low class. This is very simple.

Uh, yeah, it does. It doesn't even matter anymore, nothing from the special does. Toriyama knocked it right out of continuity.

[Luso Saiyan]

Nappa = mid-class/elite

Vegeta = elite/super-elite

Unless you can provide a source for that comparison, I'll take that as a mere assumption on your part.

nothing from the special does.

Source? At least Bardock's last stand does, which contradicts your generalization. Anyway, the discussion wasn't about if the TV special as a whole is canon (it no longer is, unfortunately), but if Bardock's power level contradicts anything (and it doesn't, for now).

[RandomGuy96]

Unless you can provide a source for that comparison, I'll take that as a mere assumption on your part.

I already did. Nappa is explicitly identified as an elite. Vegeta himself is a super-elite. Yet Toriyama just calls Vegeta an elite.

Source?

Minus

At least Bardock's last stand does, which contradicts your generalization

Bardock's last stand was in the manga, nothing else from the special was.

Anyway, the discussion wasn't about if the TV special as a whole is canon (it no longer is, unfortunately), but if Bardock's power level contradicts anything (and it doesn't, for now).

Yes, it does, because it would make Bardock stronger than Nappa.

[Kamiccolo9]

And the other interview? The one that says that Vegeta and his father are the only elites?

One can assume that Nappa was bragging in order to intimidate Goku, which fits the character.

Except that is never implied at all. Nappa says he is an elite, Vegeta doesn't say otherwise, and no one ever makes an issue out of it. The only thing that contradicts it is an interview made 20 years after the fact.

[RandomGuy96]

Again, that's not even contradictory, it's just Toriyama using a slightly different naming scheme, which is proven by him substituting "super-elite" for just "elite".

If it means anything, 10,000 can still very well apply to the anime version of Bardock in the special and flashbacks, and by extension of the anime version of EOB (which has some differences from the manga version). It just can't possibly be the level he's at in the manga and manga version of EOB, going by what Toriyama himself has repeatedly said.