"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[RandomGuy96]

Just curious but do y'all think that Bardock telling other Saiyans that Freeza is up to something(killing the saiyans in the much better anime special) occurs. The part everyone laughs at him? Also do you think Bardock fighting Freeza men occurred as well?

Bardock only had a hunch Freeza was going to destroy them. He didn't just know like the special. So I doubt he'd be confident enough to just outright declare to his fellow saiyans that Freeza was going to kill them. But then again, maybe he did. He might have just tried to argue the whole thing on common sense grounds, only to be laughed at.

I don't think him fighting Dodoria's thugs would have happened. That could only have happened if Bardock went off-world. But he did probably fight his way through a bunch of grunts to flip off Freeza in his final stand.

Yea I know he didn't know hence the (). Also why yoy mentioned Dodora? That wouldn't make sense at all. I meant Bardock kicking everyone ass to fight Freeza. Which leads another question. Why did Bardock make a last stand? At what point was Bardock certain? Is Gine alive? Did King Vegeta get suspicious as well? So many questions that the anime version did better imo.

I think King Vegeta's revolt would still have happened, basically proving Freeza's point. He brags to Vegeta about killing his father without having to transform, which doesn't sound like he killed him impersonally by blowing up the planet he was on. He also says he fought King Vegeta, which again implies that he didn't simply blow him up along with everyone else:

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P2.1-3, P3.1
Context: still talking about Freeza’s transformations
Vegeta: “Don’t be scared, he’s bluffing…he won’t change that much.”
Freeza: “Oh, is that right? Look vee—eery closely then. This isn’t something you get to see very often. Even when I attacked Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, and fought with the king, I was able to win without any need to transform whatsoever...your father wasn't anything special"

Bardock fought Freeza's thugs twice in the special: once when slaughtering Dodoria's four man squad that just finished killing his team, and again when he bulldozed his way through a few dozen grunts to get to Freeza. I think the latter happened (though not in that exact way) because Bardock is depicted as angry, bloody, and damaged while confronting Freeza in the manga flashback, with numerous Freeza grunts around him. The former would not have, as it would require Bardock to leave Vegeta.

But the Z-Senshi couldn't sense Vegeta's & Nappa's true powers until they both powered-up, and Vegeta's (18.000) Gyarik-Ho was equal with KKx3 Goku's (24.000) Kamehameha, meaning that the Gyarik-Ho's battle power is greater than Vegeta's. Plus, Nappa's mouth ki blast was stated to be his strongest attack, meaning that it was stronger than generic ki blasts, not to mention that if Nappa's BP was really 4.000, it means that his attack has an over x2 multiplier, since it clashed with Goku's quick Kamehameha, and it was also considered dangerous for him.

That's down to their ki sensing not being quite so accurate (this happens a lot) rather than Vegeta and Nappa actually being able to become stronger or weaker.

That's not the same thing as being able to actively change your power for tactical purposes. That's just shoving a lot of ki into one attack.

It could have had a high multiplier. What suggests it doesn't? What suggests it's even a multiplier? If Goku's Kamehameha at the beginning of the arc could take him from 416 to 924, why can't Nappa's mouth blast take him from 4,000 to close to 8,000?

But it is stated that there was a change in that part of their battle. It's not nitpicking, it's what happened. Plus, Nappa seems to be powering-up after he calmed down.

What stated change?

Nappa can't power up/change his battle power. The series is very clear about this.

But was he also unusually faster & stronger for his battle power? Because we literally saw an even fight between him and Goku.

No, we saw him dodge one hit while being totally dominated for several pages. If we're calling that an "even" fight, then Krillin should be closer to Nappa than Nappa is to Goku.

I just don't think picking out those three panels and trying to use them and only them while ignoring everything else works, especially when:

-Nappa couldn't hit Krillin [1,770]
-Nappa was hurt by a kick from Gohan [2,800]
-Gohan's Masenko hurt Nappa's hand [2,800]
-Both of Piccolo's hits did decent damage [3,500]
-Nappa couldn't lay a hand on suppressed Goku [5,000]
-Gohan, Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo all survived hits from Nappa

[auspx]

Just curious but do y'all think that Bardock telling other Saiyans that Freeza is up to something(killing the saiyans in the much better anime special) occurs. The part everyone laughs at him? Also do you think Bardock fighting Freeza men occurred as well?

It's possible. As for Bardock fighting Freeza's goons, it wouldn't have happened on Planet Meat (since in DB Minus all the saiyans were ordered to retun home and Bardock's team wouldn't have been ordered to go to Planet Meat) but Bardock obviously did have to fight his way through Freeza's men when he confronted Freeza in orbit of Planet Vegeta. That's what we saw in the manga and that part is still canon.

RE: Nappa's power level.
I know the guidebook says it was 4000 but that makes absolutely no sense. Why would Goku (whose base PL was "over 8000") need to use the kaioken to defeat Nappa quickly if Nappa was really only at 4000? I mean look at the Goku vs Reacoom fight. Goku (at 90,000) defeated Reacoom (40,000?) with one powerful blow, without using the kaioken. Why couldn't Goku (at over 8000) defeat Nappa (at 4000) with one punch or at least knock him out for a while?

I have seen arguments about this such as "but Nappa is hurt by basic ki blasts from Gohan (at 2800) and Piccolo (less than 2800) so he must have been at 4000" and "Nappa almost shit himself when he heard that someone was arriving with a PL of at least 5000". Of course Nappa was hurt, but not badly hurt, by their attacks. It's not like Nappa was 10x stronger than Piccolo and Gohan. As for Nappa freaking out about an opponent with a PL of 5000, could it be because Nappa was at 5000 himself at that point. We know that Nappa and Vegeta couldn't lower their ki but we did see both of them power up. Vegeta's maximum PL was 18,000 but he didn't start that battle at 18,000 he powered up before he began to fight Goku. Why isn't it possible that Nappa was at 4000 or 5000 at first but then powered up to something very close to 8000 when he calmed down?

RE: my assertion that Raditz was in the upper ranks of the low-class warriors.
He saw how weak Goku was (PL ~400, actually less than 400 with the heavy clothes on) when they met and he still thought that Goku would make a useful ally. He saw that Goku didn't have a tail and wouldn't be able to transform, and he still tried to convince Goku to join them. Could it be because many low-class saiyans were that weak and it was nothing shameful or unusual for a low-class warrior to have such a low PL? We know that Raditz himself was at 1200+, the guidebook says it was 1500. Was Raditz above average for a low-class warrior? He certainly behaved as if he was.

[Gaffer Tape]

Sorry if it sounded rude but... you are wrong.

No. I'm sorry. You can't say that. You cannot tell me with absolute certainty that I am wrong. It is impossible. You are speculating. The line, as Viz translated it, is vague enough that it *could* go either way. I'm backing up my side with context and logic. You're backing up your side by saying he didn't explicitly say no. Now, if you can pull out the original line in Japanese and show me that it explicitly says Bardock's plan was to send him to attack earth (which, again, you've repeatedly said is not the case anyway, in this very post I'm quoting: "and that the whole 'your mission was to destroy Earth, you were sent here because you were trash, etc' wasn't the real reason"), then, no, you can't confirm that.

And here's a new one for you to consider. If sending Goku as an "infiltration baby" was intended as a cover to look like they were obeying Freeza as you say, then why did he have to steal an attack ball?! If anyone in authority actually wanted Goku to attack earth, he wouldn't have had to do that. But if you both stole from your boss and sent your son out without permission after your boss explicitly told all of your race to stay on the planet, you can't exactly go, "Oh, well, I thought I was just doing what you wanted me to do."

[RandomGuy96]

I know the guidebook says it was 4000 but that makes absolutely no sense. Why would Goku (whose base PL was "over 8000") need to use the kaioken to defeat Nappa quickly if Nappa was really only at 4000?

He doesn't. He needed the KK to stop Nappa from killing Gohan, as Nappa had a head start.

I mean look at the Goku vs Reacoom fight. Goku (at 90,000) defeated Reacoom (40,000?) with one powerful blow, without using the kaioken. Why couldn't Goku (at over 8000) defeat Nappa (at 4000) with one punch or at least knock him out for a while?

First of all, Recoome was possibly as low as 36,000. Secondly, it was an off-guard elbow to the solar plexus.

I have seen arguments about this such as "but Nappa is hurt by basic ki blasts from Gohan (at 2800) and Piccolo (less than 2800) so he must have been at 4000" and "Nappa almost shit himself when he heard that someone was arriving with a PL of at least 5000". Of course Nappa was hurt, but not badly hurt, by their attacks. It's not like Nappa was 10x stronger than Piccolo and Gohan.

He doesn't need to be x10 stronger just to tank their attacks. Being anywhere close to twice as strong is more than enough.

Gohan. As for Nappa freaking out about an opponent with a PL of 5000, could it be because Nappa was at 5000 himself at that point. We know that Nappa and Vegeta couldn't lower their ki but we did see both of them power up. Vegeta's maximum PL was 18,000 but he didn't start that battle at 18,000 he powered up before he began to fight Goku. Why isn't it possible that Nappa was at 4000 or 5000 at first but then powered up to something very close to 8000 when he calmed down?

Because he can't power up, and nothing was stated implying that he can. Any differences in performance are attributed solely to his mental state.

[Gaffer Tape]

Oh, actually I just thought of something. Several people have made the comment that Freeza ordering everyone back to Vegeta makes more sense than the Bardock special because it doesn't make sense that all of the Saiyans but four...ish would happen to be on the planet at that time. Well, actually, that's not a problem in the special, as we see Dodoria and his crew purposely intercept Toma and the others to kill them. They weren't on the planet, but Freeza made sure they were killed anyway. So obviously the idea was that blowing up Vegeta wasn't the end-all plan to exterminate the Saiyans, and the reason there were only four left was because Freeza purposely left three of them alive.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's down to their ki sensing not being quite so accurate (this happens a lot) rather than Vegeta and Nappa actually being able to become stronger or weaker.

When did something similar happened? Piccolo could only guess that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa, and they only felt Nappa's power when he powered up. Vegeta also powered up against Goku, and displayed power that surprised Goku.

But then, there is the Kiwi incident, where we learn that Vegeta learned the trick on Earth. The only explanation I can think of is that the Saiyans could lower their BP in the "eyes" of ki sensing, but not in the "eyes" of the scouters.

It could have had a high multiplier. What suggests it doesn't? What suggests it's even a multiplier? If Goku's Kamehameha at the beginning of the arc could take him from 416 to 924, why can't Nappa's mouth blast take him from 4,000 to close to 8,000?

Wait, you do believe that the Kamehameha multiplier was over x2 against Raditz after all? If we go by that, then the multiplier of Nappa's ki blast would be over x8, which is the highest know multiplier in the series. And I have a hard time to buy that when techniques like Makankosappo & Final Flash take so much time to change, while this technique happens in an instant.

No, we saw him dodge one hit while being totally dominated for several pages.

It was stated by both Nappa and Vegeta that Goku dominated him because Nappa lost his temper. Then Goku stated that this was a different fight compared to before.

If we're calling that an "even" fight, then Krillin should be closer to Nappa than Nappa is to Goku.

Kuririn didn't say that his fight with Nappa would take forever.

No. I'm sorry. You can't say that. You cannot tell me with absolute certainty that I am wrong. It is impossible. You are speculating. The line, as Viz translated it, is vague enough that it *could* go either way. I'm backing up my side with context and logic. You're backing up your side by saying he didn't explicitly say no. Now, if you can pull out the original line in Japanese and show me that it explicitly says Bardock's plan was to send him to attack earth (which, again, you've repeatedly said is not the case anyway, in this very post I'm quoting: "and that the whole 'your mission was to destroy Earth, you were sent here because you were trash, etc' wasn't the real reason"), then, no, you can't confirm that.

I'm not speculating.

1. Gine assumes that Goku was to be sent as an infiltration baby.
2. Bardock replies that it's for his safety (Kanzenshuu wrote it like that in their synopsis as well, so until we learn that Viz changed the line, I take it as a fact).
3. They say that they will tell Raditz about it.
4. They tell Raditz that Goku was sent there as an infiltration baby.

It's very simple, really.

And here's a new one for you to consider. If sending Goku as an "infiltration baby" was intended as a cover to look like they were obeying Freeza as you say, then why did he have to steal an attack ball?! If anyone in authority actually wanted Goku to attack earth, he wouldn't have had to do that. But if you both stole from your boss and sent your son out without permission after your boss explicitly told all of your race to stay on the planet, you can't exactly go, "Oh, well, I thought I was just doing what you wanted me to do."

They couldn't do that, because Freeza had ordered all the Saiyans back to the planet, and no one was allowed to leave. If Bardock was wrong about it, he could have said that Goku was sent before the order, and didn't return for whatever reason.

[RandomGuy96]

When did something similar happened? Piccolo could only guess that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa, and they only felt Nappa's power when he powered up. Vegeta also powered up against Goku, and displayed power that surprised Goku.

But then, there is the Kiwi incident, where we learn that Vegeta learned the trick on Earth. The only explanation I can think of is that the Saiyans could lower their BP in the "eyes" of ki sensing, but not in the "eyes" of the scouters.

Do you want me to bring up the many, many examples where an experienced ki reader failed to guess someone who gave no indication of being suppressed?

That's actually another example. Piccolo should be able to tell who is stronger between them if it's truly just them powering up and down. Either that or the scene makes no sense, and Vegeta and Nappa have ki suppression abilities that put the Earthlings to shame. They're not actually getting stronger or weaker, they're just making their ki more visible, and exerting more effort.

Wait, you do believe that the Kamehameha multiplier was over x2 against Raditz after all? If we go by that, then the multiplier of Nappa's ki blast would be over x8, which is the highest know multiplier in the series. And I have a hard time to buy that when techniques like Makankosappo & Final Flash take so much time to change, while this technique happens in an instant.

The Kamehameha against Raditz was more charged than the Kamehameha against Nappa. From what we've seen, the Kamehameha can either amp your power or do nothing at all and just be fired as a quick reactionary blast. I have hard time believing Goku's Kamehameha had any extra power behind it, since he literally fired it one panel in reaction to a ki blast already being on its way to him. Nappa's attack would only have to be close to x2 to do what it did.

It was stated by both Nappa and Vegeta that Goku dominated him because Nappa lost his temper. Then Goku stated that this was a different fight compared to before

He stated Nappa was doing BETTER, which is true, but he was still no match for Goku. We plainly saw that. Also, neither Nappa nor Vegeta really believed Goku was 8,000.

It doesn't matter if he was angry, since we plainly saw that a calm and confident Nappa was equally inferior to Goku earlier.

Kuririn didn't say that his fight with Nappa would take forever.

So? He still landed a hit on Nappa (one that wasn't by surprise) and dodged two of his attacks, while Nappa landed no hits on Goku and only dodged one attack.

[TheGmGoken]

Random has a point. If Saiyans could do that then why didn't Gine and Bardock do it to escape? Also I might hate Db- but I love Gine design and her hair is just like Teen Goten . Though Bardock special anime was MUCH BETTER.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm not speculating.

1. Gine assumes that Goku was to be sent as an infiltration baby.
2. Bardock replies that it's for his safety (Kanzenshuu wrote it like that in their synopsis as well, so until we learn that Viz changed the line, I take it as a fact).
3. They say that they will tell Raditz about it.
4. They tell Raditz that Goku was sent there as an infiltration baby.

It's very simple, really.

Yes, you are speculating. A lot. The line from Kanzenshuu says, "They will send Kakarrot to another planet. Gine questions Bardock, who reassures her that it is for Kakarrot’s sake." That says absolutely nothing about sending him to attack earth, which is the only element in question. I don't doubt Bardock says it was for his safety. That's what I'm saying. They're sending him to earth "for his safety," not to attack earth.

Why do you have "telling Raditz about it" and "telling Raditz he was an infiltration baby" as two separate points? Well, that's almost rhetorical because I already have an answer. It's because the former is in the dialogue. The latter is just you making an assumption. Gine says, "I'll tell Raditz about this too." It never says what she's going to tell him. *I* would assume it meant she's telling him he's on earth. It's only because you already assume that he's there to attack earth that you're assuming that's what's Gine's saying there.

They couldn't do that, because Freeza had ordered all the Saiyans back to the planet, and no one was allowed to leave. If Bardock was wrong about it, he could have said that Goku was sent before the order, and didn't return for whatever reason.

And that's making a lot of assumptions. I mean again, obviously, you're assuming they're sending Goku to attack earth or that attacking earth is a cover when it's never, ever said. You're assuming that Freeza's operation is so inept that they don't notice when their equipment is stolen and don't keep track of who is going where. Admittedly, Goku is also apparently lost in the shuffle in the Bardock special too. And I'm not saying any of those things are impossible. But you are assuming them. There is nothing concrete to support what you're selling.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do you want me to bring up the many, many examples where an experienced ki reader failed to guess someone who gave no indication of being suppressed?

At least a few of them.

That's actually another example. Piccolo should be able to tell who is stronger between them if it's truly just them powering up and down. Either that or the scene makes no sense, and Vegeta and Nappa have ki suppression abilities that put the Earthlings to shame. They're not actually getting stronger or weaker, they're just making their ki more visible, and exerting more effort.

But when the ki is not visible, it's because they are suppressed.

The Kamehameha against Raditz was more charged than the Kamehameha against Nappa. From what we've seen, the Kamehameha can either amp your power or do nothing at all and just be fired as a quick reactionary blast. I have hard time believing Goku's Kamehameha had any extra power behind it, since he literally fired it one panel in reaction to a ki blast already being on its way to him. Nappa's attack would only have to be close to x2 to do what it did.

But a ki blast that is as strong as the opponent isn't dangerous for him.

He stated Nappa was doing BETTER, which is true, but he was still no match for Goku. We plainly saw that.

We never saw that Nappa was no match for Goku. When Nappa calmed down, we saw a completely even fight, he was stated to be doing better, and it was stated that the fight would take forever to end.

Also, neither Nappa nor Vegeta really believed Goku was 8,000.

It seemed more like they didn't want to believe it.

It doesn't matter if he was angry, since we plainly saw that a calm and confident Nappa was equally inferior to Goku earlier.

Nappa wasn't serious back then.

So? He still landed a hit on Nappa (one that wasn't by surprise) and dodged two of his attacks, while Nappa landed no hits on Goku and only dodged one attack.

Nappa also clashed with Goku though.

Yes, you are speculating. A lot. The line from Kanzenshuu says, "They will send Kakarrot to another planet. Gine questions Bardock, who reassures her that it is for Kakarrot’s sake." That says absolutely nothing about sending him to attack earth, which is the only element in question. I don't doubt Bardock says it was for his safety. That's what I'm saying. They're sending him to earth "for his safety," not to attack earth.

How am I speculating when it is stated that he was sent as an infiltration baby for his safety?

Why do you have "telling Raditz about it" and "telling Raditz he was an infiltration baby" as two separate points? Well, that's almost rhetorical because I already have an answer. It's because the former is in the dialogue. The latter is just you making an assumption. Gine says, "I'll tell Raditz about this too." It never says what she's going to tell him. *I* would assume it meant she's telling him he's on earth. It's only because you already assume that he's there to attack earth that you're assuming that's what's Gine's saying there.

No, the first is what we learn in DB-, and the second is what we learn in the manga. There is no assumption there.

And that's making a lot of assumptions. I mean again, obviously, you're assuming they're sending Goku to attack earth or that attacking earth is a cover when it's never, ever said. You're assuming that Freeza's operation is so inept that they don't notice when their equipment is stolen and don't keep track of who is going where. Admittedly, Goku is also apparently lost in the shuffle in the Bardock special too. And I'm not saying any of those things are impossible. But you are assuming them. There is nothing concrete to support what you're selling.

I never said that every word from me is a fact, of course I'm gonna make assumptions about things that we never saw & things that never happened. But the fact is that Goku was sent as an infiltration baby for his safety, and that if Bardock had turned out to be wrong, they would go to Earth and get him back.

[RandomGuy96]

At least a few of them.

Piccolo being shocked by Raditz tanking his attack.

Vegeta talking shit to Freeza then getting crushed.

Cell being at first confident he could take out Gohan.

Gohan underestimating SPC.

But when the ki is not visible, it's because they are suppressed.

Not necessarily. We know for a fact that Nappa, Raditz, and Vegeta cannot change their battle powers. So that can't be the reason. What I'm saying is that it's down to the ki sensing not being as reliable as a scouter in just detecting a power that is not actively being used. Yamcha even remarked that Goku had an incredible ki... "and he's not even fighting". They're always a certain strength, but the heroes wouldn't always know that.

But a ki blast that is as strong as the opponent isn't dangerous for him.

Freeza vs x20 Kamehameha begs to differ. He had to block it, and then detonate it with another ki blast, and even then, it did some damage.

We never saw that Nappa was no match for Goku. When Nappa calmed down, we saw a completely even fight, he was stated to be doing better, and it was stated that the fight would take forever to end.

Again, for three panels. For the rest of the fight, Nappa was getting crushed. Even his greatest technique was easily overpowered by a reactionary Kamehameha from Goku.

It seemed more like they didn't want to believe it.

Nappa outright said that the reading must be mistaken, and earlier he said that he didn't believe it. Vegeta crushed it in response, which REALLY doesn't imply he thinks it's completely functional and accurate.

Nappa wasn't serious back then.

Nappa can't change his battle power.

Yet, even when he's weak- sorry, "not serious" enough to not touch a power level of 5,000, he can take several hits from a power level of 8,000.

Nappa also clashed with Goku though.

Nappa never hit him. He only dodged one kick.

[Gaffer Tape]

How am I speculating when it is stated that he was sent as an infiltration baby for his safety?

Because that's not stated. It's never stated. You're conflating two completely different lines of dialogue said by two different people who had two different sets of knowledge and motivation. And yet for some reason you seem to insist on jumping to the same conclusion Gine did. But I'm done. I bow out. There's nothing more either of us can say about this.

[RocktheDragon]

How am I speculating when it is stated that he was sent as an infiltration baby for his safety?

Because that's not stated. It's never stated. You're conflating two completely different lines of dialogue said by two different people who had two different sets of knowledge and motivation. And yet for some reason you seem to insist on jumping to the same conclusion Gine did. But I'm done. I bow out. There's nothing more either of us can say about this.

Yeah...I am going to have to agree with everything you've been arguing for/about Gaffer Tape. I don't really understand the logic that DBZGTKOSDH is utilizing but I don't see the connections he is making, and those that he does make don't have a basis in logic or fact. Oh well.

I mean it is all well and fine to argue for something, but if your points just don't add up then...yeah.

Edit: And I'm addressing you directly because if you hadn't been aruging with DBZGTKOSH I most undoubtedly would have taken up that mantle.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo being shocked by Raditz tanking his attack.

Vegeta talking shit to Freeza then getting crushed.

Cell being at first confident he could take out Gohan.

Gohan underestimating SPC.

These are different. In these examples, the characters come to false conclusions because their emotions are in the way (overconfidence most of the time). But with Piccolo & Vegeta, Piccolo could only guess Vegeta's power because he couldn't sense his true power. It wasn't a false conclusion, it was the only conclusion he could come to with the available facts he had at that point.

Not necessarily. We know for a fact that Nappa, Raditz, and Vegeta cannot change their battle powers. So that can't be the reason. What I'm saying is that it's down to the ki sensing not being as reliable as a scouter in just detecting a power that is not actively being used. Yamcha even remarked that Goku had an incredible ki... "and he's not even fighting". They're always a certain strength, but the heroes wouldn't always know that.

Then I guess ki sensing can't sense one's full power when they are not fighting, while scouters can.

Freeza vs x20 Kamehameha begs to differ. He had to block it, and then detonate it with another ki blast, and even then, it did some damage.

It was KKx20 Goku that was equal with Freeza, Kamehameha has its own multiplier as well.

Again, for three panels. For the rest of the fight, Nappa was getting crushed. Even his greatest technique was easily overpowered by a reactionary Kamehameha from Goku.

And again, what you call the "rest of the fight" was when Nappa was a different case. And Nappa's greatest technique wasn't overpowered, it was matched.

Nappa outright said that the reading must be mistaken, and earlier he said that he didn't believe it. Vegeta crushed it in response, which REALLY doesn't imply he thinks it's completely functional and accurate.

The impression I always had was that Vegeta & Nappa were lying to themselves because they couldn't believe that Goku, a low-class, could have been so powerful, especially after just a year. But deep in them, they knew it was true. That's why Nappa was so angry. But that's just my personal interpretation of the scene, not a fact.

Nappa can't change his battle power.

You don't have to change your battle power to not fight seriously.

Yet, even when he's weak- sorry, "not serious" enough to not touch a power level of 5,000, he can take several hits from a power level of 8,000.

Well, how can someone at 4.000 take hits from someone at over 8.000 in the first place?

Nappa never hit him. He only dodged one kick.

Same goes for Goku, at least when Nappa calmed down.

Because that's not stated. It's never stated. You're conflating two completely different lines of dialogue said by two different people who had two different sets of knowledge and motivation. And yet for some reason you seem to insist on jumping to the same conclusion Gine did. But I'm done. I bow out. There's nothing more either of us can say about this.

We have Gine assuming that Goku will be sent as an infiltration baby. We have Bardock replying that it's for his safety. This means that Goku is going to be sent as an infiltrator baby for his safety. Bardock may be wrong about Freeza, so they sent him secretly on the mission just in case something happens. They even tell Raditz that he is on a mission on Earth. So... I don't get your logic.

Also wait, I missed that one:

And here's a new one for you to consider. If sending Goku as an "infiltration baby" was intended as a cover to look like they were obeying Freeza as you say, then why did he have to steal an attack ball?!

I mean again, obviously, you're assuming they're sending Goku to attack earth or that attacking earth is a cover when it's never, ever said.

When did I say any of these?

Yeah...I am going to have to agree with everything you've been arguing for/about Gaffer Tape. I don't really understand the logic that DBZGTKOSDH is utilizing but I don't see the connections he is making, and those that he does make don't have a basis in logic or fact. Oh well.

Could you elaborate on that?

[RandomGuy96]

These are different. In these examples, the characters come to false conclusions because their emotions are in the way (overconfidence most of the time). But with Piccolo & Vegeta, Piccolo could only guess Vegeta's power because he couldn't sense his true power. It wasn't a false conclusion, it was the only conclusion he could come to with the available facts he had at that point.

I don't see what their emotions have to do with anything...? In every case, the weaker character is fully capable of using ki sensing on their opponent to read them, with no implication their opponent is suppressed, yet still botch their estimates until the fight starts.

Then I guess ki sensing can't sense one's full power when they are not fighting, while scouters can.

That's what I think. I like it that way, as it gives benefits and drawbacks to ki sensing vs scouters, and explains how no one could tell Vegeta > Nappa (among other things) without completely contradicting the story. The saiyans weren't simply way better at suppressing their powers than the Earthlings, they couldn't change their powers at all, the Earthlings just weren't good at reading it this early.

It was KKx20 Goku that was equal with Freeza, Kamehameha has its own multiplier as well.

Daizenshuu 7 doesn't think so. For example, it just lists Goku's x4 Kamehameha in the Saiyan arc at 32,000.

And again, what you call the "rest of the fight" was when Nappa was a different case. And Nappa's greatest technique wasn't overpowered, it was matched.

Nothing is different except mental state. He's not actually any stronger or weaker, and his attitude suddenly changing doesn't mean that three panels can cancel out the whole fight, where Goku destroyed Nappa.

The impression I always had was that Vegeta & Nappa were lying to themselves because they couldn't believe that Goku, a low-class, could have been so powerful, especially after just a year. But deep in them, they knew it was true. That's why Nappa was so angry. But that's just my personal interpretation of the scene, not a fact.

As you said, that's your interpretation. I think that if Nappa outright says he doesn't believe the reading, and that the scouter is broken, then, well, he doesn't believe the reading and thinks the scouter is broken.

You don't have to change your battle power to not fight seriously.

But you do to appear to have worse reflexes and durability than you actually do.

Well, how can someone at 4.000 take hits from someone at over 8.000 in the first place?

Ask Toriyama. He's the one who, in rapid succession, drew Nappa getting hurt by 2,800 attacks, being unable to keep up with 5,000 speed, and then surviving 8,000 attacks anyway.

Same goes for Goku, at least when Nappa calmed down.

The difference is that Goku had already kicked the shit out of Nappa, while Nappa never laid a finger on Goku. Just because he wasn't able to hit him for every single panel doesn't mean he wasn't crushing Nappa effortlessly. The Daizenshuu even stated he was treating Nappa like a child, which matches what we see in the manga.

And Nappa's greatest technique wasn't overpowered, it was matched.

Actually, after Goku's quick Kamehameha clashed with Nappa's best technique, Goku compliments Nappa on his durability, saying he should have been hurt by the Kamehameha. Implying Goku's attack overpowered Nappa's.

[Gaffer Tape]

We have Gine assuming that Goku will be sent as an infiltration baby. We have Bardock replying that it's for his safety. This means that Goku is going to be sent as an infiltrator baby for his safety. Bardock may be wrong about Freeza, so they sent him secretly on the mission just in case something happens. They even tell Raditz that he is on a mission on Earth. So... I don't get your logic.

Sigh. Already been down and around this circular rabbit hole of reading comprehension. Already said (in the very post you're responding to, no less) why I think you're jumping to conclusions (and for your convenience, I put your leap in bold). Already said I'm not doing it again.

Also wait, I missed that one:

And here's a new one for you to consider. If sending Goku as an "infiltration baby" was intended as a cover to look like they were obeying Freeza as you say, then why did he have to steal an attack ball?!

I mean again, obviously, you're assuming they're sending Goku to attack earth or that attacking earth is a cover when it's never, ever said.

When did I say any of these?

Um... 7 lines above where you asked this, for starters: "Bardock may be wrong about Freeza, so they sent him secretly on the mission just in case something happens."

[Xagani]

I just realized something... How can Gine say that she will tell Raditz that Goku is on Earth if Raditz is staying with Vegeta on another planet and Bardock and Gine don't leave Planet Vegeta until Freeza blows it up? Unless Gine somehow survives and tells Raditz about Goku on Earth at a later time?

EDIT: Also, they can't communicate via the scouters since Freeza (or any of his henchmen) could overhear them.

[Marco Polo]

I just realized something... How can Gine say that she will tell Raditz that Goku is on Earth if Raditz is staying with Vegeta on another planet and Bardock and Gine don't leave Planet Vegeta until Freeza blows it up? Unless Gine somehow survives and tells Raditz about Goku on Earth at a later time?

EDIT: Also, they can't communicate via the scouters since Freeza (or any of his henchmen) could overhear them.

They can use the Scouters fine; they just can't tell him (and Freeza) the real reason. Hence Raditz's behavior in the Saiyan Saga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see what their emotions have to do with anything...? In every case, the weaker character is fully capable of using ki sensing on their opponent to read them, with no implication their opponent is suppressed, yet still botch their estimates until the fight starts.

Piccolo was panicked, so he thought that Gohan was dead from Cell instead of sensing his ki. Vegeta was so overconfident for his power, so he didn't bother to sense Freeza because he was already stronger. Etc.

Ki sensing, as I've told you before in other debates we had, isn't an automated process that automatically compares someone with everyone.

That's what I think. I like it that way, as it gives benefits and drawbacks to ki sensing vs scouters, and explains how no one could tell Vegeta > Nappa (among other things) without completely contradicting the story. The saiyans weren't simply way better at suppressing their powers than the Earthlings, they couldn't change their powers at all, the Earthlings just weren't good at reading it this early.

Nah, I don't like it. We were never told that ki sensing can be done better or anything similar. You either can do it, or you can't.

Daizenshuu 7 doesn't think so. For example, it just lists Goku's x4 Kamehameha in the Saiyan arc at 32,000.

I think it lists KKx4 Goku, not his Kamehameha.

Nothing is different except mental state. He's not actually any stronger or weaker, and his attitude suddenly changing doesn't mean that three panels can cancel out the whole fight, where Goku destroyed Nappa.

That's not in the manga, but DB Movie 3 taught us that mental state plays a big role in a fight. Goku vs Taopaipai there went exactly like Goku vs Nappa. Goku got angry because of Bora's death, and effortlessly got his ass kicked from Taopaipai. Then Karin advised him to calm down, and after that Goku kicked Taopaipai's ass.
Here, we have Nappa getting angry because Goku was unbelievably strong, and got his ass kicked. Then Vegeta told him to calm down, and after he did so, we saw an even fight with Goku.
This applies in real-life as well.

But you do to appear to have worse reflexes and durability than you actually do.

I can't control my BP, but I can fight without going all out in strength & speed, and when I'm more relaxed, I can get hurt by hits that won't hurt me if I'm ready to take them. This applies to everyone.

Ask Toriyama. He's the one who, in rapid succession, drew Nappa getting hurt by 2,800 attacks, being unable to keep up with 5,000 speed, and then surviving 8,000 attacks anyway.

He didn't really got hurt by 2.800 attacks. Gohan's kick was off-guard hit, and his Masenko made him go "Ouch!", but it didn't do him any real damage.
And as for 5.000 Goku, we didn't see that Nappa couldn't keep up with him in speed, we only saw that Nappa's punch wasn't fast enough, and we were never told that Nappa was going all-out at that point (and why would he, his opponents were far weaker than him, and that's what he expected from Goku as well).

Actually, after Goku's quick Kamehameha clashed with Nappa's best technique, Goku compliments Nappa on his durability, saying he should have been hurt by the Kamehameha.

That doesn't mean that he has a durability of someone close to 8.000.

Implying Goku's attack overpowered Nappa's.

But it didn't. We literally saw the ki blasts clashing & exploding evenly. What Goku's line implies is that the explosion from the ki blasts got them both.

Um... 7 lines above where you asked this, for starters: "Bardock may be wrong about Freeza, so they sent him secretly on the mission just in case something happens."

And how did you conclude that I said that his mission was a cover?

[Gaffer Tape]

And how did you conclude that I said that his mission was a cover?

Well, quotes like this certainly make it appear logical: "Their priority was to save his life. They probably didn't care about if Goku would destroy the Earth or not, but they had a reason to send him to Earth, and also an excuse for Raditz. Plus, they weren't sure that Freeza would do something, it could have turned out to be a mistake from Bardock's side."

So, yeah, combine your statements of them not caring and calling it an excuse with the *fact* that Bardock didn't want Goku to look at the full moon, and it certainly *seems* pretty clear that it being a cover is what you're saying. Hey, but then again, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions without actually having explicit fact to back it up, thereby assigning you a motive based on my own preconceptions.

See? That's what that looks like.