When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[TheGmGoken]

For what it's worth, literally every video game also seems to think that Gohan was a SSJ2 when he blasted Buu's ball.

For what it's worth, literally every video game also seems to think that Gohan was SSJ when he fought Dabura.

[Super Vegetto]

MSSJ form is fan made term. FPSSJ is official name for Goku when goes Full power in SSJ form.

I say FPSSJ is grade 3 without drawbacks. The reason they neaded to master SSJ form, and achive FPSSJ without anything holding them back (speed/energy drain/big muscles)...

I'm curious why we think this is actually a transformation?

How do you know Goku just simply wasn't suppressing his SSJ power when he and Cell were warming up and then going to full 50x base when he was surious?

What ? MSSJ or FPSSJ ? The FPSSJ is actualy listed in Goku's transformations, but i see it as SSJ grade...

I think Goku and Gohan were powered up all the time. Others could judge that they got stronger, but not to the point of surpassing Vegeta or Trunks before Goku said he was stronger and showing 50% oh his power...Also in anime fillers Gohan still doesn't have control over his powers, which shouldn't be if they are suppressed down like in base...

Goku was suppressing his power, i just don't say that he was suppressing 50x base..I say he was 50x full control, and went further above...Not sure how to put it in multiply...

[gojirason]

For what it's worth, literally every video game also seems to think that Gohan was a SSJ2 when he blasted Buu's ball.

For what it's worth, literally every video game also seems to think that Gohan was SSJ when he fought Dabura.

You'll have to refresh my memory here, which one was that?
Pretty sure most none of them are conclusive. A good number of them don't even include the fight in the story mode, and the ones that do start you out base and have you unlock SSJ2 prior.

EDIT: The few that ARE definitive have Gohan at SSJ2 against Dabura and Buu. So you're definitely incorrect.
Tenkaichi 1 for example.
http://youtu.be/2_45n9qeqe0?t=9m21s
http://youtu.be/Q9fNn6fnb9U?t=1m57s

[Son_Gohan]

I'd like to bring up my tree analogy again.

You can easily pick out certain types of trees by the shape and color or whatever of their leaves, making those leaves a key visual trait of the tree. But even when the tree sheds its leaves in the winter, it doesn't just stop being that type of tree. The leaves merely aren't there to show it at the moment.

When that happens, you can still look at other more minor traits (the bark, roots, wood, etc) to figure out what type of tree is it. But when two trees have similar secondary traits, but very obviously different leaves... well, that means they're two different species of tree, plain and simple.

In the same way, the different Super Saiyan forms can be easily identified by their distinct auras (and, putting aside the argued case with Gohan, the manga is undeniably EXTRAORDINARILY consistent with this), and that doesn't stop being the case just because the auras are sometimes "turned off" when the Saiyan is transformed but powered down. That's why, "you can't say the aura is a trait of the form if it's not always there" is a weak argument.

Once again, it being a trait is not the issue. Using your analogy, a tree could have green, pliable leaves in the spring and orange, brittle leaves during autumn, but the change in color and consistency does not make it another tree. Defining that tree only by when its leaves were green is merely focusing on the particular time when it exhibited them, instead of regarding its appearances as a whole or the reason(s) for why that feature would change.

What makes the Super Saiyan aura “distinct”? The Super Saiyan 1 aura in the Majin Buu arc wouldn’t appear to be depicted the same way as the Freeza arc, similarly, Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2 aura in the Cell Games wouldn’t appear to match the form’s depiction in the Majin Buu arc. Throughout the manga, consistency is not what the aura is shown to possess. What can be established is that this sort of juxtaposition is a largely subjective method. The issue was not questioning it being a trait, but the fact that people would focus on something demonstrated to be inessential to the form over things of more vital importance.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

MSSJ form is fan made term. FPSSJ is official name for Goku when goes Full power in SSJ form.

I say FPSSJ is grade 3 without drawbacks. The reason they neaded to master SSJ form, and achive FPSSJ without anything holding them back (speed/energy drain/big muscles)...

I'm curious why we think this is actually a transformation?

How do you know Goku just simply wasn't suppressing his SSJ power when he and Cell were warming up and then going to full 50x base when he was surious?

What ? MSSJ or FPSSJ ? The FPSSJ is actualy listed in Goku's transformations, but i see it as SSJ grade...

I think Goku and Gohan were powered up all the time. Others could judge that they got stronger, but not to the point of surpassing Vegeta or Trunks before Goku said he was stronger and showing 50% oh his power...Also in anime fillers Gohan still doesn't have control over his powers, which shouldn't be if they are suppressed down like in base...

Goku was suppressing his power, i just don't say that he was suppressing 50x base..I say he was 50x full control, and went further above...Not sure how to put it in multiply...

This contradicts pretty much any power level list we came up with. I thought all this time that SSJ2 was 100x base power. Now that's thrown out the window completely if FPSSJ does take Goku and Gohan further in strength.

[xmysticgohanx]

This contradicts pretty much any power level list we came up with. I thought all this time that SSJ2 was 100x base power. Now that's thrown out the window completely if FPSSJ does take Goku and Gohan further in strength.

SSJ2 is 100x... FPSSJ doesn't increase power it just eliminates most of the strain and besides even if it did increase power SSJ2 is 2x SSJ not FPSSJ.

[Reading Rainbow]

On top of other things, Dabura flat out states in the anime that he has a higher kiri rating than Goku (not even 4000 kiri could defeat me) and his sentiment is similar in the manga; he's stronger than SSJ Goku against Yakon, so unless SSJ Gohan is stronger than SSJ Goku (lmao no), then he'd have to be SSJ2 to match Dabura.

That's an excellent point, hadn't thought of that before.

[mAcChaos]

He could have still been just barely stronger than SSJ Goku though. Enough to have a decent match like Gohan did.

[Super Vegetto]

Eternal Super Saiyan:

Back in days people did think this is contradiction because they couldn't possibly see Base Saiyans under Frieza after training in Rosat. Is this why it contradicts your list ?

It's funny because grades put SSJ multiply above,,why shouldn't it be same for full power of super saiyan form ?

SSJ2 is 100x base power. Goku doesn't always go FPSSJ when he transforms in SSJ. For example against Yakkon. Vegeta not knowing about Goku having SSJ2 at that point, yet he was confident about them beating Dabura, which means SSJ Goku > Dabura ...3000 kili is under Dabura, and Goku is clearly not showing FP of SSJ. You can even tell by look on his eyes...

It says in daizesnhuu that Goku draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits. Grade 2/3 are part of Super Saiyan, so what's the point of getting out the POWER of the Super Saiyan to its limits if he isn't even stronger than grade 2 ?

[miguelnuva1]

I look at it like this.

SSJ and MSSJ/FPSSJ are the same thing and are both 50x base but FPSSJ draws out grade 3 power where SSJ doesn't.

Grade 2 and Grade 3 are shortcuts to the max SSJ power but if you train and unlock FPSSJ you can draw the grade 3 power out as a regular ssj with the 50x increase.

[Son_Gohan]

He could have still been just barely stronger than SSJ Goku though. Enough to have a decent match like Gohan did.

Dabura was aware of SSJ Goku's power, yet is confident enough to want to fight all 4 of them at once.

[dan2026]

Dabura was a threat because he could turn people to stone with his spit, breathe magic flames and pull magic weapons literally out of his ass. I don't think he was ever that strong or tough (comparatively speaking) he just had a massive bag of tricks.

[gojirason]

He could have still been just barely stronger than SSJ Goku though. Enough to have a decent match like Gohan did.

That doesn't make any sense. We know Goku is hugely stronger than Gohan; stronger than Angry Kid Gohan at the same level, let alone current Gohan.

If SSJ Gohan could match Dabura, SSJ Goku would crush him.

The way Dabura describes it anyway, he's not talking about an even match. He's not scared by 3000 kiri in the slightest. His words in the anime (which are totally in support of his attitude in the manga) are that someone considerably stronger than SSJ Goku still wouldn't be a match for him.

And before anybody says anything along the lines of Goku being suppressed, there's zero evidence of that. He even clearly had the full power aura at all times against Yakon—which only makes sense since the occasion escalated past Super Saiyan.

Dabura was a threat because he could turn people to stone with his spit, breathe magic flames and pull magic weapons literally out of his ass. I don't think he was ever that strong or tough (comparatively speaking) he just had a massive bag of tricks.

He had a battle power equal to Cell, who's on a the level of a Super Saiyan 2... the bag of tricks is what made him stronger in Goku's eyes.

We're told under no uncertain terms that Dabura is certain he can beat Gohan, and that he thinks initial Buu is trash.
Gohan on the other hand is told he needs to get mad to beat Dabura, and says himself he doesn't think he can beat initial Buu unless he gets mad like he was back then, not if he just turns SSJ2 and stomps them both. Those two points not only correlate with Cell level Dabura, but also SSJ2 Gohan being weaker than Dabura.

Even if Gohan was just a SSJ, Dabura is still above initial Buu, and Gohan still needs to hit Cell Games level super pissed in order to beat the person below Dabura. That won't change regardless of whether Gohan is a SSJ1 or 2, but the context of his fight with Dabura, along with various other pieces of dialogue, only really makes sense if he was SSJ2; to say nothing of how it only makes sense at all if he wasn't SSJ2 given the statement in Daizenshuu, backed up by even more secondary material, like the video games mentioned above.

SSJ2 Goku > Dabura > Initial Buu > SSJ2 Gohan.

Whether Gohan was a SSJ2 or not is unimportant; Dabura is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan anyway.

With all of that in mind, there's more pointing towards SSJ2 than not, the only thing pointing against it at all is half of the visual element, since he at least looks the same as SSJ2 and not his mundane SSJ other than the aura. The issue is that they're close in appearance; even if SSJ3 didn't have sparks at one point, nobody would ever confuse it for anything else.

On that note, we can all agree that Gohan was a SSJ2 in Movie 10 despite his aura yes? That the primary indicator of his forms was his minor appearance differences? And that these differences were designed and designated by Toriyama himself? Then should it not be noted that Movie 10 was in production at the exact same time the Dabura Fight was being released in the manga? Literally the exact same time that the hair appearance was shown to be different by Toriyama, Toriyama was drawing the Dabura Fight with the appearance of SSJ2's hair.

That's a bit too big of a coincidence for them to be totally unrelated, when it's the exact same issue, especially when we're told years later in Daizenshuu and other sources he's a SSJ2, despite the aura in the exact same way.

EDIT: It's not like he just stopped drawing the bang either, Gohan clearly has it when not transformed after the fight.
Every shot of Gohan in his base before and after the Budokai has 2 bangs. Every shot of Gohan transformed casually and prior to the World Tournament has 2 distinct bangs. Movie 10 very specifically separates him by two bangs as the only clear distinction. Gohan against Dabura and Buu looks like Gohan in front of Kibito and SSJ2 Gohan in Movie 10, with one bang, and matching Movie 10 with no sparks.

It could be a coincidence but it would be a very convenient coincidence that it just happens to match a rule established at least once during the same time frame of publications and confirmed in later publications to be matching that rule. Juuust saiyan.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Eternal Super Saiyan:

Back in days people did think this is contradiction because they couldn't possibly see Base Saiyans under Freeza after training in Rosat. Is this why it contradicts your list ?

It's funny because grades put SSJ multiply above,,why shouldn't it be same for full power of super saiyan form ?

SSJ2 is 100x base power. Goku doesn't always go FPSSJ when he transforms in SSJ. For example against Yakkon. Vegeta not knowing about Goku having SSJ2 at that point, yet he was confident about them beating Dabura, which means SSJ Goku > Dabura ...3000 kili is under Dabura, and Goku is clearly not showing FP of SSJ. You can even tell by look on his eyes...

It says in daizesnhuu that Goku draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits. Grade 2/3 are part of Super Saiyan, so what's the point of getting out the POWER of the Super Saiyan to its limits if he isn't even stronger than grade 2 ?

When Goku blew up Yakon with that burst of energy, I look at it as Goku briefly tapping into SSJ2 for a few seconds to give Yakon that extra kick.

I also thought Grade 2/3 were Ascended and Ultra? This is already too many names and forms. It should stop right there. Let's not make it any more confusing than it already is.

As mentioned earlier, Mastered/Full Power SSJ is just the mastering of the state, nothing more. So it felt more normal for Goku and he doesn't have to strain himself to use the full power at longer periods of time. Remember when Trunks thought this would make Goku stronger, then Vegeta corrected him saying that was wrong?

Look at this scan here.

[Hitiro]

That's what I thought as well, but after seeing the chapters again, it seems more like Gohan hasn't decided to transform and holds himself, since after a while he says "fine I'll transform".

I think you got to remember that Gohan was pretty pissed from Videl getting smashed up right before he went ahead and transformed. I think he was still reeling with anger when he transformed.

Alternatively, I've always thought that sparks were there because of how harsh the ki was expelled from the body. If the process of the ki spilling from the body was smoother there aura would be less rough and thus not produce any sparks. If you read through the manga there are characters powering up exhibiting aura's with sparks in them all the way through the story. That doesn't mean they became SSJ2 versions of their race. Equally I find it possible that a SSJ2 can be a SSJ2 without sparks in their aura. We have to consider that Gohan lost the sparks because he got weaker through the time of peace. I also don't think Kibito topped his ki reservoir up properly after his ki was stolen because Kibito noted that Gohan had a pretty deep tank for his ki.

[Super Vegetto]

Eternal Super Saiyan:

Back in days people did think this is contradiction because they couldn't possibly see Base Saiyans under Freeza after training in Rosat. Is this why it contradicts your list ?

It's funny because grades put SSJ multiply above,,why shouldn't it be same for full power of super saiyan form ?

SSJ2 is 100x base power. Goku doesn't always go FPSSJ when he transforms in SSJ. For example against Yakkon. Vegeta not knowing about Goku having SSJ2 at that point, yet he was confident about them beating Dabura, which means SSJ Goku > Dabura ...3000 kili is under Dabura, and Goku is clearly not showing FP of SSJ. You can even tell by look on his eyes...

It says in daizesnhuu that Goku draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits. Grade 2/3 are part of Super Saiyan, so what's the point of getting out the POWER of the Super Saiyan to its limits if he isn't even stronger than grade 2 ?

When Goku blew up Yakon with that burst of energy, I look at it as Goku briefly tapping into SSJ2 for a few seconds to give Yakon that extra kick.

I also thought Grade 2/3 were Ascended and Ultra? This is already too many names and forms. It should stop right there. Let's not make it any more confusing than it already is.

As mentioned earlier, Mastered/Full Power SSJ is just the mastering of the state, nothing more. So it felt more normal for Goku and he doesn't have to strain himself to use the full power at longer periods of time. Remember when Trunks thought this would make Goku stronger, then Vegeta corrected him saying that was wrong?

Look at this scan here.

Goku did tap into SSJ2 to destroy Yakkon, but i say that he wasn't using full power of SSJ on him...He also transforms second time after Yakkon takes his SSJ energy...

Yes, grade 2 and 3 are official names for ascended and ultra SSJ.

You see there is a difference...mastering SSJ and using full power of SSJ are 2 different things...MSSJ is not boost in strenght, it's just getting used to SSJ and it's control. FPSSJ is boost in strenght, and daizenshuu describes it that way.

Actualy that translation is not complity indentical to one in manga, yet it still proves my point by saying body weight (grades).

In japanese anime version Trunks thinks that they would transform in something more powerful, while Vegeta corrects him and says that they judged that states as the best...Even if they incrise their power, only the small burden would be added to body.

Than (this is not in manga) Trunks says: "So just the transformation of the body is usless. That's why i couldn't beat Cell"

Also as mentioned in daizenshuu under FPSSJ: Goku decides that unreasonable power up is an disadvantage (grades)...When Goku said that, he also said to Gohan that they should try to get used to SSJ with basic training...

So yeah, you see my point. They can't just transform/power up to grades and beat Cell. They nead to master SSJ as if it's natural to them and than achive power up without drawbacks, or basicly SSJ pushed to the limit...

Staying as a SSJ and it's strain was never a problem in fight..I still don't understand why someone thinks that way, when we have official definition of FPSSJ.

[Hitiro]

You see there is a difference...mastering SSJ and using full power of SSJ are 2 different things...MSSJ is not boost in strenght, it's just getting used to SSJ and it's control. FPSSJ is boost in strenght, and daizenshuu describes it that way.

Staying as a SSJ and it's strain was never a problem in fight..I still don't understand why someone thinks that way, when we have official definition of FPSSJ.

FPSSJ and MSSJ are the same thing. In the Daizenshuu FPSSJ is used as the official term. FPSSJ is not a boost in strength.

The whole point of using it was so that if Goku could close the gap between him and Cell he wouldn't have to worry about his energy reserves. He didn't want to use a form that gave more power at the expense of more energy. Obviously there was a problem in fighting with the SSJ strain otherwise they would never have trained to remove or lessen the strain. Goku deemed the original SSJ form the best fighting state as it balanced power, speed and energy consumption fairly. Goku pointed out what is the point of getting more power if he couldn't keep up with his opponent to use it.

[Super Vegetto]

You see there is a difference...mastering SSJ and using full power of SSJ are 2 different things...MSSJ is not boost in strenght, it's just getting used to SSJ and it's control. FPSSJ is boost in strenght, and daizenshuu describes it that way.

Staying as a SSJ and it's strain was never a problem in fight..I still don't understand why someone thinks that way, when we have official definition of FPSSJ.

FPSSJ and MSSJ are the same thing. In the Daizenshuu FPSSJ is used as the official term. FPSSJ is not a boost in strength.

The whole point of using it was so that if Goku could close the gap between him and Cell he wouldn't have to worry about his energy reserves. He didn't want to use a form that gave more power at the expense of more energy. Obviously there was a problem in fighting with the SSJ strain otherwise they would never have trained to remove or lessen the strain. Goku deemed the original SSJ form the best fighting state as it balanced power, speed and energy consumption fairly. Goku pointed out what is the point of getting more power if he couldn't keep up with his opponent to use it.

FPSSJ draws out the power of SSJ to its limits.

[Hitiro]

FPSSJ draws out the power of SSJ to its limits.

This has been discussed before, here. As I pointed out on that page drawing out the power of a SSJ to it's limit doesn't need to necessarily mean that it's a boost in strength. Rather it allows the fight at the limits of the SSJ form because of the reduced ki consumption from the form. That limit would obviously be 100% base power * 50(SSJ multiplier).

To quote myself:

This may not mean an increase in power per say, but rather it allows Goku to draw out the power, which is already available, of the Super Saiyan to its limit without any penalties. Thus allowing Goku to fight at his maximum without worry about maintaining the energy in a prolonged battle. Power doesn't need to directly correlate to the strength of the form. Power in this case could mean, as said by definition of the word "power", the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. This is how I see FPSSJ, as others do. Its just a highly tuned form of the regular SSJ form without the implications on the Saiyan's energy reserves.

[Son_Gohan]

As I pointed out on that page drawing out the power of a SSJ to it's limit doesn't need to necessarily mean that it's a boost in strength. Rather it allows the fight at the limits of the SSJ form because of the reduced ki consumption from the form. That limit would obviously be 100% base power * 50(SSJ multiplier).

To quote myself:

This may not mean an increase in power per say, but rather it allows Goku to draw out the power, which is already available, of the Super Saiyan to its limit without any penalties. Thus allowing Goku to fight at his maximum without worry about maintaining the energy in a prolonged battle. Power doesn't need to directly correlate to the strength of the form. Power in this case could mean, as said by definition of the word "power", the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. This is how I see FPSSJ, as others do. Its just a highly tuned form of the regular SSJ form without the implications on the Saiyan's energy reserves.

Where in the story was it clearly established that the original form took such a significant toll on their energy reserves? A character like Vegeta has sported the form for lengthy periods even when he's not fighting, which wouldn't support this notion. Based on the word choice, the line is most likely a reference to the dialogue Goku has with Gohan while relaxing before the Cell Games.