Bardock TV Special vs Dragon Ball Minus

[auspx]

And yeah, it sounds over romatic and fanfiction-like for Bardock and Gine to bond, (and personally, I'm not sure I like it, I don't want Goku to be a ~special snowflake~) but you seriously can't expect an entire race to behave exactly the same, that's not very plausible.

Until Vegeta's brother was introduced in the 2008 OVA and now Goku's mom in DB Minus that's exactly how it was. The whole point of the Saiyans & Freeza saga was that Goku is the only member of that race who isn't an evil asshole. After that, Vegeta's transition from villian to hero took a very long time... We didn't need to see any more "nice" saiyans and I still believe that it is completely unnecessary.

Why? Precisely because it makes Goku less special and it makes Vegeta's transition from evil to good not such a big deal after all. If Bardock wasn't a cold blooded jerk but a nice guy who loved his wife and cared about his kids... well then what's the big deal about Vegeta becoming a husband and a father? If Goku's mom failed as a warrior because she was too gentle, then what's the big deal about Goku being a nice guy? Maybe he got it from his mom. And now we find out that his parents told him not to look at the moon. What a load of crap.

Sure DragonBall had plot holes and dumb plot twists (Goku's heart disease, kid Trunks and Goten turning SSJ) but it wasn't fundamentally broken. Akira Toriyama didn't need to "fix" it until it became broken.

[RandomGuy96]

Why? Precisely because it makes Goku less special and it makes Vegeta's transition from evil to good not such a big deal after all

Portraying some saiyans as actual people rather than mindless automatons that exist solely to smash babies on rocks doesn't suddenly mean the society as a whole wasn't evil.

If Bardock wasn't a cold blooded jerk but a nice guy who loved his wife and cared about his kids... well then what's the big deal about Vegeta becoming a husband and a father?

Because he's one of thousands? And he's still an unrepentant mass murderer?

If Goku's mom failed as a warrior because she was too gentle, then what's the big deal about Goku being a nice guy? Maybe he got it from his mom.

Goku is almost the exact opposite of his mother.

Sure DragonBall had plot holes and dumb plot twists (Goku's heart disease, kid Trunks and Goten turning SSJ)

What, exactly, was wrong with Goten and Trunks going SS, and being stronger than Piccolo to boot? Overpowered kids have been a thing since the very first chapter, and Gohan went SS about a year later than they did. He was also born to a much weaker version of Goku without Super Saiyan.

[auspx]

What, exactly, was wrong with Goten and Trunks going SS, and being stronger than Piccolo to boot? Overpowered kids have been a thing since the very first chapter, and Gohan went SS about a year later than they did. He was also born to a much weaker version of Goku without Super Saiyan.

Gohan also had to train very hard before he could do it. Kid Trunks and Goten? Not so much.

[Mewzard]

Dragon Ball Minus, in my opinion, is like information, that Tenshinhan is descendant of three-eyed aliens, and my reaction for both "revelations" is "la la la la I can't hear you " Seriously, it`s like Star Wars New Trilogy, why you need to explain a past, messing up with continuity, for me, Goku always will be son of low-class warrior, who, thanks to training and determination, become strongest. And Bardock is fine in Bardock Special, thank you.

Goku is still the son of a low-class warrior who became the strongest due to training and determination. This special did not change a single bit of that. Wheere did you even get the idea that this effects any of that?

Some of these complaints honestly make me question who have actually read the special, and who are complaining about it just based on what they've heard/it not being the TV Special...

Until Vegeta's brother was introduced in the 2008 OVA and now Goku's mom in DB Minus that's exactly how it was. The whole point of the Saiyans & Freeza saga was that Goku is the only member of that race who isn't an evil asshole. After that, Vegeta's transition from villian to hero took a very long time... We didn't need to see any more "nice" saiyans and I still believe that it is completely unnecessary.

Why? Precisely because it makes Goku less special and it makes Vegeta's transition from evil to good not such a big deal after all. If Bardock wasn't a cold blooded jerk but a nice guy who loved his wife and cared about his kids... well then what's the big deal about Vegeta becoming a husband and a father? If Goku's mom failed as a warrior because she was too gentle, then what's the big deal about Goku being a nice guy? Maybe he got it from his mom. And now we find out that his parents told him not to look at the moon. What a load of crap.

Sure DragonBall had plot holes and dumb plot twists (Goku's heart disease, kid Trunks and Goten turning SSJ) but it wasn't fundamentally broken. Akira Toriyama didn't need to "fix" it until it became broken.

There are thousands of Saiyans, and the race must have existed for thousands of years (especially if the legends are true). How does there being no good Saiyans until Goku even make sense? A majority of the primal warrior race being bad? Yeah, I could see it. But all of them ever makes no sense.

The Super Saiyan God story implies there were good Saiyans in the past. At least enough to create a Super Saiyan God.

Bardock wasn't a nice guy, he murdered off entire races so Freeza could get his planets. Just because he's slightly less evil for caring about his wife and son doesn't mean he isn't evil overall. There are evil villains who also care for their families. Look at Dr. Gero, according to Toriyama, Android #16 is the way he is because he was modeled after Dr. Gero's dead son, the Strength and Nature he had were to protect him from harm.

Vegeta was going to blow up the Earth in spite, and for a long time cared only about power and his chance at immortality. Even when he got with Bulma, it was likely purely physical at first, as he was going to let Bulma and Trunks die to go after Dr. Gero. He only warmed up to his family later on in the arc, starting with Future Trunks. He had to grow to even gain the capacity to love emotionally.

But Goku didn't get it from his mom. We see Goku on Earth, he's still a violent little bastard until he hits his head. How he became Goku has not be changed at all by this. The irony of him hitting his head and forgetting what he was told about not looking at the Moon is an interesting.

He didn't break anything here though, so I don't see your point.

[RandomGuy96]

What, exactly, was wrong with Goten and Trunks going SS, and being stronger than Piccolo to boot? Overpowered kids have been a thing since the very first chapter, and Gohan went SS about a year later than they did. He was also born to a much weaker version of Goku without Super Saiyan.

Gohan also had to train very hard before he could do it. Kid Trunks and Goten? Not so much.

By that logic, shouldn't you also complain that Goku didn't have to train hard to learn the Kamehameha, while Roshi spent fifty years perfecting it? Or that Gohan only trained one year in the ROSAT, and that alone was enough to bring him from weaker than base Goku to the strongest being in existence?

Goten and Trunks were born stronger than Gohan because their fathers were stronger, and born as tail-less hybrids because their fathers had unlocked SS. That gave them easy access to the transformation. Add seven years of play fighting- basically a less severe version of Gohan and Goku sparring for one year in the ROSAT- and voila, super powerful Super Saiyans.

ook at Dr. Gero, according to Toriyama, Android #16 is the way he is because he was modeled after Dr. Gero's dead son, the Strength and Nature he had were to protect him from harm.

Whaaaaaaaaat?

[auspx]

But Goku didn't get it from his mom. We see Goku on Earth, he's still a violent little bastard until he hits his head. How he became Goku has not be changed at all by this. The irony of him hitting his head and forgetting what he was told about not looking at the Moon is an interesting.

In anime only filler, not in the manga. How exactly is he being a violent little bastard here? It's almost as if AT didn't want to show kid Goku being violent or hostile. And it won't surprise me at all if the entire "head injury/amnesia made him nice" plot twist will soon be retconned out of existence.

[auspx]

Goten and Trunks were born stronger than Gohan because their fathers were stronger, and born as tail-less hybrids because their fathers had unlocked SS. That gave them easy access to the transformation. Add seven years of play fighting- basically a less severe version of Gohan and Goku sparring for one year in the ROSAT- and voila, super powerful Super Saiyans.

Did it actually say in the manga that they were born tail-less? I may be wrong about this but didn't Kuririn ask Bulma if baby Trunks had a tail and what happened to it? And Bulma didn't answer the question. If that's how it happened it implies that he did have it at birth and it was removed. I have no idea if Goten had it or not or if it was even talked about in the manga.

[Mewzard]

Whaaaaaaaaat?

From one of the question things Toriyama's been doing, when asked about the various Androids. Kanzenshuu should have a thing on it on the site.

In anime only filler, not in the manga. How exactly is he being a violent little bastard here? It's almost as if AT didn't want to show kid Goku being violent or hostile. And it won't surprise me at all if the entire "head injury/amnesia made him nice" plot twist will soon be retconned out of existence.

Look at both Goku and Grandpa Gohan, both have visible scuffs, and Gohan has a tear in his sleeve. He also mentions Goku's strength and how it would have been dangerous if he wasn't a martial arts expert

Clearly, Goku ended up attacking Gohan and he was able to defend himself and bring him home.

So yeah, given their appearance and the dialogue, I'd say he was still violent.

Not every single little thing has to be outright stated or shown to be implied. Subtlety is a part of storytelling.

[RandomGuy96]

Goten and Trunks were born stronger than Gohan because their fathers were stronger, and born as tail-less hybrids because their fathers had unlocked SS. That gave them easy access to the transformation. Add seven years of play fighting- basically a less severe version of Gohan and Goku sparring for one year in the ROSAT- and voila, super powerful Super Saiyans.

Did it actually say in the manga that they were born tail-less? I may be wrong about this but didn't Kuririn ask Bulma if baby Trunks had a tail and what happened to it? And Bulma didn't answer the question. If that's how it happened it implies that he did have it at birth and it was removed. I have no idea if Goten had it or not or if it was even talked about in the manga.

There was no response, but attention was drawn to the fact that Trunks never had a tail. The guidebooks explain it in detail.

From one of the question things Toriyama's been doing, when asked about the various Androids. Kanzenshuu should have a thing on it on the site.

Source? I've never heard of that.

[garnetjester]

I do remember interviews with Toriyama where he said that the tail was a recessive trait, and that's why Goten and Trunks (and I'm assuming Bra) were born tail less. I don't know if one of the guidebooks covered the whole super saiyajin unlocking tail less descendants though, would be interesting (although kind of arbitrarily weird) if it were true.

[Mewzard]

Source? I've never heard of that.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 60#p777578

"Upon my prodding, Julian translated some of them from the volumes over on Twitter. They're pretty interesting this time around:

Gero designed the Red Ribbon's weaponry. He built Artificial Humans because mechs can be captured and used by the enemy while Artificial Humans can think for themselves. 1-7 & 9-12 were completely artificial, but Gero couldn't control personalities. Too dark, too stupid, too nice, etc. #16 was modeled on Gero's dead son, a high-ranking Red Ribbon soldier long ago felled by an enemy bullet. In his affection, Gero made him powerful, but didn't want him to be destroyed in battle, so he made him gentle. #19 is modeled after a doll decorating the command center of an enemy base, which Gero brought home as a trophy.

"

[auspx]

There was no response, but attention was drawn to the fact that Trunks never had a tail. The guidebooks explain it in detail.

Did Akira Toriyama write these guidebooks himself or are these just fan theories? I am asking because I have seen some of the information from these guidebooks and some of it looks really dubious. For example they think that kid Goku in the beginning of DB had a PL of only 10 which is ridiculous. Even Mr. Satan and Videl can't be that weak... and kid Goku was already invulnerable to bullets, lifting and throwing very heavy objects, and talking about hunting bears and tigers for lunch. Unless these guidebooks were written or approved by AT himself I wouldn't rely on them for information.

[RandomGuy96]

There was no response, but attention was drawn to the fact that Trunks never had a tail. The guidebooks explain it in detail.

Did Akira Toriyama write these guidebooks himself or are these just fan theories? I am asking because I have seen some of the information from these guidebooks and some of it looks really dubious. For example they think that kid Goku in the beginning of DB had a PL of only 10 which is ridiculous. Even Mr. Satan and Videl can't be that weak... and kid Goku was already invulnerable to bullets, lifting and throwing very heavy objects, and talking about hunting bears and tigers for lunch. Unless these guidebooks were written or approved by AT himself I wouldn't rely on them for information.

Toriyama doesn't write guidebooks, but he does supervise and approve them.

No, there's something like ten errors (mostly typos) in the hundreds of pages. There's nothing wrong with Goku only having a power level of 10. Power levels are quite clearly not linear, as Piccolo at 408 could blow the moon to smithereens, yet Vegeta at only 18,000 could blow up a planet. Unless you really believe all it takes is 82 humans to destroy the moon.

[Gaffer Tape]

I can't really fully judge it until I get to read Minus for myself (which likely won't be until that Jaco collected volume comes out, if not quite a while after that), but just going off what I do know...I'm kind of in the middle.

Why do you have to wait that long? Just go to the Shonen Jump website, pay $.99, and 15 minutes later, you'll be all caught up!

[Gyt Kaliba]

Why do you have to wait that long? Just go to the Shonen Jump website, pay $.99, and 15 minutes later, you'll be all caught up!

Unfortunately I don't have a readily available way to buy stuff online, what orders I make are done with those one-time-use cards, and I only get those when I actually have the cash to make an order of at least $50. It's my understanding that Jump only sells back-issues so far, so by the time I have the cash, it'll likely be gone - if they even accept those one-time-use gift cards.

Believe me, if it was an option at the moment, I'd already have done it.

[Mewzard]

Why do you have to wait that long? Just go to the Shonen Jump website, pay $.99, and 15 minutes later, you'll be all caught up!

Unfortunately I don't have a readily available way to buy stuff online, what orders I make are done with those one-time-use cards, and I only get those when I actually have the cash to make an order of at least $50. It's my understanding that Jump only sells back-issues so far, so by the time I have the cash, it'll likely be gone - if they even accept those one-time-use gift cards.

Believe me, if it was an option at the moment, I'd already have done it.

As of today, they have back issues going back to January 20th. The issue with Dragon Ball Minus was from April 7th (last week's issue). Dunno if they'd accept gift cards, but you can use Paypal, that's an easy, safe way to do online stuff.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I don't have a Paypal either, sadly.

That said though...somehow...I missed the full length description of the chapter on the main site (there really is a site too, who knew?) that I'd somehow missed until now, despite it having been up for a full week. Oy.

Reading that's still not the same as actually reading the chapter, but...for the most part I think I'm still at where I was before, I like some aspects of it, but the few that do annoy me really get to me. Especially how pointless it seems that Freeza knows 'Super Saiyan God' when the point that brings it up really would work fine with just 'Super Saiyan'.

[penguintruth]

Why must Goku's parents be special? Why must they be exceptional? Why can't they just be two of millions of bloodthirsty savages?

If the Saiyans die and there are good ones, then their genocide is more of a tragedy. The reason we don't feel bad when Vegeta learns about Freeza killing them is because they were brutal. When Raditz gives the cover story that a meteor killed them, there's no sting of tragedy because Raditz is a bad guy and he's from an entire race of, ostensibly, bad guys.

Yeah, realistically, an entire race of bad guys is silly. A race of millions or billions of people that are all black hats? Absurd on its face. However, it's because they're that way that makes it easier for us to accept that their destruction was bad karma. We feel for Vegeta when he dies on Namek not because the Saiyans were a race like any other with good ones and bad ones and they died needlessly, but because even though they were horrible murderers, they had their pride, and being used by their killer is the tragedy.

There is sort of a weird nobility to them, even though as readers, we should be glad most of them are gone.

[auspx]

There was no response, but attention was drawn to the fact that Trunks never had a tail. The guidebooks explain it in detail.

Did Akira Toriyama write these guidebooks himself or are these just fan theories? I am asking because I have seen some of the information from these guidebooks and some of it looks really dubious. For example they think that kid Goku in the beginning of DB had a PL of only 10 which is ridiculous. Even Mr. Satan and Videl can't be that weak... and kid Goku was already invulnerable to bullets, lifting and throwing very heavy objects, and talking about hunting bears and tigers for lunch. Unless these guidebooks were written or approved by AT himself I wouldn't rely on them for information.

Toriyama doesn't write guidebooks, but he does supervise and approve them.

No, there's something like ten errors (mostly typos) in the hundreds of pages. There's nothing wrong with Goku only having a power level of 10. Power levels are quite clearly not linear, as Piccolo at 408 could blow the moon to smithereens, yet Vegeta at only 18,000 could blow up a planet. Unless you really believe all it takes is 82 humans to destroy the moon.

No, that's impossible. Kid Goku can't be only twice as powerful as that Farmer (PL 5) from DBZ. A professional athlete might have a PL of 10, Mr. Satan and Videl might have a PL between 10 to 15 and none of these people can do what Goku was doing in the very beginning of DB.
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v1/c1/10
He is talking about hunting bears and tigers for food... while he's armed with nothing more than his own fists, feet, and a staff.
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v1/c1/15
He is lifting and throwing a car.
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v1/c1/16
He gets shot and he isn't even seriously hurt.
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v1/c3/4
He crushed a giant rock with his bare hands.
And Goku was doing this before any real martial arts training, and long before he learned to control his ki. You can't compare that to charged ki blasts (i.e. Master Roshi and Piccolo blowing up the moon). It's not the same thing.
This is exactly why I wouldn't rely too much on these guidebooks for information.

[Rocketman]

This is exactly why I wouldn't rely too much on these guidebooks for information.

It's much better to rely on whatever you can pull from your bunghole, I agree.