Why didn't Akira Toriyama just introduce Gogeta instead?

[miguelnuva1]

Who knows how AT would have write Gogeta. I think SSj4 Gogeta would be more close on what AT would have in mind and SSj4 Gogeta was a just a poor man's version of Vegito.

I loved how SSJ4 Gogeta was portrayed. I always felt that Gogeta would act like he did in GT while Vegito was the serious best of Goku and Vegeta

[Blade]

I'm honestly glad he didn't go with the fusion dance purely because I also feel it would have been unbelievable for Gogeta to actually put up a fight against Buuhan considering how strong Gotenks' was. I feel it wouldn't have added up right. A more powerful fusion seems fitting to me. Even if it was a plot device.

Why? Vegeta and Goku are worlds ahead of Trunks and Goten in terms of battle power and experience. A Buu-arc Gogeta would still be leagues beyond Gotenks and at least more powerful than 'Ultimate Gohan' no matter how you look at it.

Well it depends on if Gogeta would be able to whip out SSJ3 but I honestly don't think he would be able to and would just be at SSJ. You can say what you want about Trunks and Goten but they were only equal to Evil Boo when they were fighting as SSJ3 Gotenks. Goku thought that a SSJ Gotenks would beat Good Boo so that puts SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. That means SSJ3 Gotenks is 8x SSJ3 Goku. Anyway you look at it Boohan is at least 16x SSJ3 Goku. That's not going to be beatable by SSJ Gogeta who would only be stronger than SSJ3 Goku by a bit.

Well, if we're using your maths - and consider that Vegeta and Goku are at least twice as powerful as Goten and Trunks, it's therefore safe to assume that using the same fusion multiplier, when merged they'd be at least twice as powerful than Gotenks right off the bat, which at least squares them up to Buuhan via your estimations.

Furthermore, I'd say that assuming Vegeta and Goku to be initially only twice as strong is a fairly low estimation anyway. They're probably at least three or four times as powerful than their youngest kids at that point in the story.

You can only be so scientific with something like this, but whatever way you look at it, Gogeta would be incredibly powerful if we was introduced in the manga. Furthermore, it's also reasonable to assume that if Toriyama had decided to go with the Fusion Dance route, he would have probably included the 'rival boost' notion too, as he did with the earrings.

[xmysticgohanx]

Well, if we're using your maths - and consider that Vegeta and Goku are at least twice as powerful as Goten and Trunks, it's therefore safe to assume that using the same fusion multiplier, when merged they'd be at least twice as powerful than Gotenks right off the bat, which at least squares them up to Buuhan via your estimations.

I'm pretty sure 2x Gotenks would be Buutenks and not Buuhan since SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Buu.

[FoolsGil]

Considering he had every intention to defuse the two, perhaps AT should have have had Goku and Vegeta do the dance, but have them end up looking like Vegetto. Man, the potential madness of having 2 versions of a Goku/Vegeta fusion dance, one anime/manga, one movie.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If Toriyama hadn't cared about not using the Fusion Dance on Goku and Vegeta after the anime, the manga would have probably been the exact same as it is now. With the only difference being that after he was absorbed with the barrier, the fusion's time would have ended instead of using the "bad air" excuse to split the Potara.

Regardless of how fans perceive the powers and gaps, Toriyama most likely would have had Goku and Vegeta fuse and turn into a Super Saiyan. Vegetto, Gogeta or whatever he would have technically been would have still humiliated Buu as just a Super Saiyan and forced the Majin to absorb him by threatening to finish him before his fusion time runs out.

[Hitiro]

Well, if we're using your maths - and consider that Vegeta and Goku are at least twice as powerful as Goten and Trunks, it's therefore safe to assume that using the same fusion multiplier, when merged they'd be at least twice as powerful than Gotenks right off the bat, which at least squares them up to Buuhan via your estimations.

Goten in the Daizenshuu was stated to be at least as strong as Gohan. So I don't think Vegeta and Goku are twice as strong as them. But even if we say they are. That would be SSJ Gotenks we are talking about. Not SSJ3 Gotenks. Assuming they are twice as strong as SSJ Gotenks as SSJ Gogeta that would mean Boohan is still more than 4x more powerful than SSJ Gogeta. Because SSJ Gogeta would effectively be the same level as SSJ2 Gotenks.

Furthermore, I'd say that assuming Vegeta and Goku to be initially only twice as strong is a fairly low estimation anyway. They're probably at least three or four times as powerful than their youngest kids at that point in the story.

You can only be so scientific with something like this, but whatever way you look at it, Gogeta would be incredibly powerful if we was introduced in the manga. Furthermore, it's also reasonable to assume that if Toriyama had decided to go with the Fusion Dance route, he would have probably included the 'rival boost' notion too, as he did with the earrings.

I would put SSJ2 Kid Gohan's rage boost as something like 2-3.5x boost. And I don't think Gohan necessarily got weaker but rather he didn't have that rage boost he did when he was a kid. I think 4x would be pushing it. If it was 4x though and Goku and Vegeta were 4x stronger than Teen Gohan then Boohan would still be 2x stronger than SSJ Gogeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Regardless of how fans perceive the powers and gaps, Toriyama most likely would have had Goku and Vegeta fuse and turn into a Super Saiyan. Vegetto, Gogeta or whatever he would have technically been would have still humiliated Buu as just a Super Saiyan and forced the Majin to absorb him by threatening to finish him before his fusion time runs out.

Given to how consistent Toriyama always was with battle powers (not talking about the numbers), I really doubt that we would see SS Gogeta kicking Gohan Boo's ass like Super Vegetto did. Vegetto could do what he did because it was stated that the Potara were stronger than Fusion. The story would have just gone differently than it actually went. For example, maybe Gogeta would have gone SS3, and maybe Gohan would have been killed and not absorbed, so we would have Gogeta kicking Piccolo Boo's ass to make Boo absorb him, and then save Piccolo & the kids. We have no idea how the story would have went if Toriyama had used Gogeta, but because he was always consistent in these things, I'm sure that the story wouldn't have been the same as it actually was, except if we were given a reason about why Gogeta ended up that strong. Power boosts are plot-driven of course, but they are not random.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Most of these arguments stem from fans making assumptions based on the information that was gathered after the fact. Like when the Daizenshuu states that Goten is basically equal to Gohan, who isn't that far behind our pure Saiyans. This then tends to lead to them thinking that there wouldn't be much of a difference between Gotenks and Gogeta. But the thing is, the Daizenshuu didn't exist back then and many of the scenes are open to a wide variety of interpretations.

Without the guide's statements on the kids, what makes anyone think they are even close to the adults? Their fight with 18? She's can't sense ki and she's surprised at the skill of a supposed normal Earthling. Couple that with Goku being shocked at the boy's level of power when he says "that's it?" while training them for fusion, and it's more like the kids aren't all that impressive in comparison to Goku or Vegeta.

Not that they would even exist if Toriyama hadn't changed things, but say the Potara were still mentioned to be stronger than the Fusion Dance and they just chose to use the non-permanent option? Sure it's stronger, because it's permanent, doesn't require the movements and has no restrictions on body or ki size between fusees. Gohan and Goku weren't similar in power. If they could get it to work, Gohan would have had to power down a lot to match his father, making the earrings the stronger option. For Goku and Vegeta though, they are basically equal at all shared levels. Thus Gogeta and Vegetto would be as well, because there isn't any power restriction when forming Gogeta.

In short, though Toriyama is pretty consistent, there is nothing within the manga itself, up until the page where Elder Kaioshin introduces the Potara, that supports a manga Gogeta not being on par with what Vegetto did display. Remove the earrings and the guidebooks, as they currently are, from history and there's nothing supporting a need for a change in plot like you seem so sure there is.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, the guidebooks have nothing to do with this. Goten & Trunks being close to Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan comes from the manga.

• Goten was a good sparring partner for Gohan, and while Gohan could block all of Goten's hits, he couldn't do it effortlessly.
• Vegeta was forced to stop Trunks with a punch when Trunks almost hit him when he was going all out on him, with Vegeta avoiding his hits.
• Gohan got scared that Goten & Trunks would soon surpass him if he had kept skipping training, implying that the difference isn't huge.
• Trunks' suppressed ki blast was considered dangerous for #18, dangerous enough to force her to defeat them as quickly as possible by DQing them.

All these place the kids being less that x2 weaker than the adults. If the difference was bigger, then their sparring with Gohan & Vegeta respectively would have went like Goku's fight against Reacoom, Butta, and Jheese.

Couple that with Goku being shocked at the boy's level of power when he says "that's it?" while training them for fusion, and it's more like the kids aren't all that impressive in comparison to Goku or Vegeta.

This just means that their power didn't meet Goku's expectations. Gohan was like "HOLY SHIT!" from Goten's power, but he was stronger than him.

Not that they would even exist if Toriyama hadn't changed things, but say the Potara were still mentioned to be stronger than the Fusion Dance and they just chose to use the non-permanent option? Sure it's stronger, because it's permanent, doesn't require the movements and has no restrictions on body or ki size between fusees. Gohan and Goku weren't similar in power. If they could get it to work, Gohan would have had to power down a lot to match his father, making the earrings the stronger option. For Goku and Vegeta though, they are basically equal at all shared levels. Thus Gogeta and Vegetto would be as well, because there isn't any power restriction when forming Gogeta.

No, the Potara are stronger than Fusion in terms of power as well. Rou Kaioshin said that because of the power of the Potara (not because of Ultimate), if Goku had merged with Gohan, they would be able to beat Boo without going Super Saiyan (and if they don't have to go SS, they don't have to use Ultimate).

And Goku & Gohan do have similar powers in base. It's implied in the manga that Gohan's base & Ultimate are two different states, with M13 & BoG confirming it.

[Saiga]

I don't think Toriyama would have said that potara is stronger than the dance method if he planned on portraying Vegetto in the exact same way he planned for Gogeta. So I think Vegetto was made stronger than Gogeta to distance it from the dance method which he no longer wanted to use. I still think Gogeta would have beaten up Gohan-Boo, but not as a regular Super Saiyan. Him being a Super Saiyan 3 at the time would match up with what already happens quite well, what with the shortness of the fight.

[Kaboom]

I think the point is more that if Toriyama never had any reason to devise the Potara in the first place, we've got no good reason to presume a Goku-Vegeta Dance Fusion wouldn't instead be enough to beat Boo. It's a matter of taking off the power levels "logic" glasses and looking at the narrative aspect.

Yeah, maybe Toriyama would have had "Gogeta" need Super Saiyan 3 to do it or something, but the narrative message of "a Goku-Vegeta Fusion is super powerful and like the most totally awesome fighter ever" would definitely take precedence over making something that power levels analysts would find consistent.

There's a reason why when I make power level lists I typically don't even bother assigning numbers to Vegetto OR Gogeta.

[Vice]

I remember there was an interview on DBZF where Akira said he wanted something different and cooler to out due Super Gogeta in M12 so he made Super Vegetto witht he earrings.

Well, sadly he failed. Gogeta > Vegetto

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yeah, maybe Toriyama would have had "Gogeta" need Super Saiyan 3 to do it or something, but the narrative message of "a Goku-Vegeta Fusion is super powerful and like the most totally awesome fighter ever" would definitely take precedence over making something that power levels analysts would find consistent.

That's true, but that doesn't mean that Gohan Boo would have happened as well. It may have been Piccolo Boo, Evil Boo, even a new Boo that we never got to see.

Like if Goku was to stay dead for Gohan to save the day. Do you really think that the story would have ended with U. Gohan kicking Evil Boo's ass and that's it? Boo would have definitely transform into something to give Gohan a challenge, like Vegeta turned into Oozaru, Freeza destroyed the Namek's core, and Cell returned from the brink of death & injured Gohan.

[Hitiro]

I remember there was an interview on DBZF where Akira said he wanted something different and cooler to out due Super Gogeta in M12 so he made Super Vegetto witht he earrings.

Well, sadly he failed. Gogeta > Vegetto

Vegetto has the better personality though. In fact, Vegetto has a personality and Gogeta is basically Kristen Stewart in every movie ever.

[Darkprince410]

I dunno. I actually found Gogeta's attitude in movie 12 to be rather refreshing. We've very rarely seen one of the good guys just throw "toying" and "playing around" to the side and just open up on the enemy to destroy them utterly. Most every time the hero is far more powerful than the villain, the hero tends to play around with the enemy (Gohan with Cell and later with Buu, Vegetto with Buu, Vegeta with #19, etc), so seeing Gogeta just forming and instantly tearing Janemba apart (without any "witty" banter at that) was a nice change of pace.

[Hitiro]

I dunno. I actually found Gogeta's attitude in movie 12 to be rather refreshing. We've very rarely seen one of the good guys just throw "toying" and "playing around" to the side and just open up on the enemy to destroy them utterly. Most every time the hero is far more powerful than the villain, the hero tends to play around with the enemy (Gohan with Cell and later with Buu, Vegetto with Buu, Vegeta with #19, etc), so seeing Gogeta just forming and instantly tearing Janemba apart (without any "witty" banter at that) was a nice change of pace.

Well, Vegetto actually did it for the reason of getting Boo to try and absorb him. Otherwise I'm pretty sure he would have been all business.

[Darkprince410]

I dunno. I actually found Gogeta's attitude in movie 12 to be rather refreshing. We've very rarely seen one of the good guys just throw "toying" and "playing around" to the side and just open up on the enemy to destroy them utterly. Most every time the hero is far more powerful than the villain, the hero tends to play around with the enemy (Gohan with Cell and later with Buu, Vegetto with Buu, Vegeta with #19, etc), so seeing Gogeta just forming and instantly tearing Janemba apart (without any "witty" banter at that) was a nice change of pace.

Well, Vegetto actually did it for the reason of getting Boo to try and absorb him. Otherwise I'm pretty sure he would have been all business.

True, I know that he had reasons for playing around with Buu, but it didn't change that what Vegetto did was still pretty common with what we saw with a lot of the other one-sided hero fights, so to see Gogeta acting in a no-nonsense sort of way was a nice change of pace.

[miguelnuva1]

I remember there was an interview on DBZF where Akira said he wanted something different and cooler to out due Super Gogeta in M12 so he made Super Vegetto witht he earrings.

Well, sadly he failed. Gogeta > Vegetto

Vegetto has the better personality though. In fact, Vegetto has a personality and Gogeta is basically Kristen Stewart in every movie ever.

They literally have the same personality just Vegito handled and carried himself smarter.

[Hitiro]

They literally have the same personality just Vegito handled and carried himself smarter.

I think you need to re-watch the Fusion Reborn movie. They really don't have the same personality. The only thing Gogeta said was "I am neither Goku, nor Vegeta. I am the one who will destroy you." Broly had more dialogue than that and Broly is equally as weak a character as Gogeta, personality-wise.

[KentalSSJ6]

They literally have the same personality just Vegito handled and carried himself smarter.

I think you need to re-watch the Fusion Reborn movie. They really don't have the same personality. The only thing Gogeta said was "I am neither Goku, nor Vegeta. I am the one who will destroy you." Broly had more dialogue than that and Broly is equally as weak a character as Gogeta, personality-wise.

Besides the line you already mentioned, he also explains how he's about to kill Janemba then lets out a little laugh when the Janemba is purified and reverts to the Oni worker.

They expand upon his personality in Raging Blast 1 though in his what if battles with Veggeto.