When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[Hitiro]

Where in the story was it clearly established that the original form took such a significant toll on their energy reserves? A character like Vegeta has sported the form for lengthy periods even when he's not fighting, which wouldn't support this notion. Based on the word choice, the line is most likely a reference to the dialogue Goku has with Gohan while relaxing before the Cell Games.

The only time Vegeta was shown using the form for lengthy periods of time was after the Cell Games though? He did his training as SSJ from that point on as Goku showed the benefits of mastering SSJ and training in the form from the Cell Games. So it more than likely is the case that Vegeta mastered SSJ during the Cell Games or during the several years after it.

[Son_Gohan]

The only time Vegeta was shown using the form for lengthy periods of time was after the Cell Games though? He did his training as SSJ from that point on as Goku showed the benefits of mastering SSJ and training in the form from the Cell Games. So it more than likely is the case that Vegeta mastered SSJ during the Cell Games or during the several years after it.

After defeating #19 he stays transformed for an extended time without doing any actual fighting, and does not revert even when given ample opportunities to conserve Ki such as while Piccolo manhandles #20 or while Bulma reveals Dr. Gero’s identity. Energy consumption is only explicitly mentioned to be a big issue in regards to the SSJ Grade states. There’s nothing substantial indicating for the reader that the original form burdened them in that way, so it's not a conclusion Toriyama appeared to have in mind.

[Hitiro]

After defeating #19 he stays transformed for an extended time without doing any actual fighting, and does not revert even when given ample opportunities to conserve Ki such as while Piccolo manhandles #20 or while Bulma reveals Dr. Gero’s identity. Energy consumption is only explicitly mentioned to be a big issue in regards to the SSJ Grade states. There’s nothing substantial indicating for the reader that the original form burdened them in that way, so it's not a conclusion Toriyama appeared to have in mind.

I would assume energy consumption is not a big deal when you aren't actually fighting. You aren't concentrating on the battle so maintaining the transformation would be a lot easier. If he had his mind on the battle it would become a lot more difficult to manage his ki unless he learns to instinctively do it. Goku suggests to Gohan in the RoSaT that they should cut out the training and then slowly bring it back up the original training regiment. So yeah, I assume doing nothing would make it a lot easier to maintain energy reserves.

[kuartus4]

He could have still been just barely stronger than SSJ Goku though. Enough to have a decent match like Gohan did.

Dabura was aware of SSJ Goku's power, yet is confident enough to want to fight all 4 of them at once.

Dabura thinks SSJ Goku is only at 3,000 kiri right? But it seems the kiri meter was maxed out. We see the kiri meter on the floor after Goku reverted to base after defeating Yakon, and the pointer is seen at the very far right edge of the meter, while when Goku was ssj, it was all the way to the left and bumping up against the far left side. So its possible SSJ Goku was actually stronger than 3,000 kiri.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

He could have still been just barely stronger than SSJ Goku though. Enough to have a decent match like Gohan did.

Dabura was aware of SSJ Goku's power, yet is confident enough to want to fight all 4 of them at once.

Dabura thinks SSJ Goku is only at 3,000 kiri right? But it seems the kiri meter was maxed out. We see the kiri meter on the floor after Goku reverted to base after defeating Yakon, and the pointer is seen at the very far right edge of the meter, while when Goku was ssj, it was all the way to the left and bumping up against the far left side. So its possible SSJ Goku was actually stronger than 3,000 kiri.

I'm sure Dabura knows how many Kilis he has. Sure he was surprised about Yakon's defeat but immediately offered to face them in Stage 3, stating there's no way he can be defeated. Why would he say this if 3000 kilis is higher than him? It's a fact that he's stronger than SSJ1 Goku and SSJ2 Gohan. About the power meter, it didn't really look maxed out. And that 3000 was mentioned well before he killed Yakon. And that was by briefly going SSJ2. Based on this, I can assume SSJ2 is 6000 kilis

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Dabra was struggling against Gohan. He couldn't even damage him. At best, they're equal. And Dabra reassuring Bobbidi he'll win is nothing more than that.

[Son_Gohan]

I would assume energy consumption is not a big deal when you aren't actually fighting. You aren't concentrating on the battle so maintaining the transformation would be a lot easier. If he had his mind on the battle it would become a lot more difficult to manage his ki unless he learns to instinctively do it. Goku suggests to Gohan in the RoSaT that they should cut out the training and then slowly bring it back up the original training regiment. So yeah, I assume doing nothing would make it a lot easier to maintain energy reserves.

In an earlier post you make it seem as if just maintaining the original form itself caused significant Ki consumption. When Vegeta fights #18, Piccolo notes that his stamina falls the more he moves but does not emphasize anything having to do with the form itself, and even after expending stamina, having his arm broken and getting beaten further, Vegeta reverts only once he loses consciousness. If it were such a strain just to stay transformed then it is not made evident here. Goku states that they should start over from “basic training”, not cut-out training entirely.

Dabura thinks SSJ Goku is only at 3,000 kiri right? But it seems the kiri meter was maxed out. We see the kiri meter on the floor after Goku reverted to base after defeating Yakon, and the pointer is seen at the very far right edge of the meter, while when Goku was ssj, it was all the way to the left and bumping up against the far left side. So its possible SSJ Goku was actually stronger than 3,000 kiri.

The Daizenshuu entry for the Energy Meter establishes it can measure readings that surpass 3000 kiri. Babidi merely states Goku’s power was at 3000, without expressing it possibly being more than that. The kiri system is done away with after that point, and to have it be inaccurate in its brief appearance doesn’t seem to serve any apparent purpose. So it probably just means what it means.

[Super Vegetto]

FPSSJ draws out the power of SSJ to its limits.

This has been discussed before, here. As I pointed out on that page drawing out the power of a SSJ to it's limit doesn't need to necessarily mean that it's a boost in strength. Rather it allows the fight at the limits of the SSJ form because of the reduced ki consumption from the form. That limit would obviously be 100% base power * 50(SSJ multiplier).

To quote myself:

This may not mean an increase in power per say, but rather it allows Goku to draw out the power, which is already available, of the Super Saiyan to its limit without any penalties. Thus allowing Goku to fight at his maximum without worry about maintaining the energy in a prolonged battle. Power doesn't need to directly correlate to the strength of the form. Power in this case could mean, as said by definition of the word "power", the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. This is how I see FPSSJ, as others do. Its just a highly tuned form of the regular SSJ form without the implications on the Saiyan's energy reserves.

Man, ki consumption doesn't matter and it never did for SSJ or SSJ2. SSJ3 is different case...

Again Daizenshuu 2 states, Goku draws out the "power of the Super Saiyan to its limit". Doesn't get much clearer than that. It's not talking about Goku's own limit(which had also been temporary reached at that time), it's talking about the SSJ form itself. Meaning irregardless of Goku's base power, FPSSJ should still be superior to any other SSJ-branch like transformations, powerwise.

[Hitiro]

In an earlier post you make it seem as if just maintaining the original form itself caused significant Ki consumption. When Vegeta fights #18, Piccolo notes that his stamina falls the more he moves but does not emphasize anything having to do with the form itself, and even after expending stamina, having his arm broken and getting beaten further, Vegeta reverts only once he loses consciousness. If it were such a strain just to stay transformed then it is not made evident here. Goku states that they should start over from “basic training”, not cut-out training entirely.

Well, Goku does say during the RoSaT that the form is difficult to maintain. And while the Ki consumption isn't that significant from what we see up until that point Goku still decides to train the form to do away with most of the Ki consumption so more energy may be used during the battle rather than being squandered away on maintaining the transformation. Goku obviously thought that reducing the Ki consumption would produce significant results for him to decide to go down that route in the first place. Otherwise what other benefit would there be from reducing Ki consumption if the consumption is so marginal it wouldn't affect a battle? I honestly think Goku and the rest of the SSJ's were only putting out something like 75% of their maximum energy output and reserving the remaining 25% for Ki consumption and dire situations(Such as Vegeta's Final Flash). Even though Vegeta didn't revert until he lost conciousness against #18 he probably still had enough energy left in reserve to maintain the transformation.

Man, ki consumption doesn't matter and it never did for SSJ or SSJ2. SSJ3 is different case...

Again Daizenshuu 2 states, Goku draws out the "power of the Super Saiyan to its limit". Doesn't get much clearer than that. It's not talking about Goku's own limit(which had also been temporary reached at that time), it's talking about the SSJ form itself. Meaning irregardless of Goku's base power, FPSSJ should still be superior to any other SSJ-branch like transformations, powerwise.

If it never mattered then explain why Goku decided to lessen/remove the ki consumption in the RoSat? Even Vegeta and Piccolo state that they minimized the strain of the form so they can more effectively use the form in battle. In the Daizenshuu 2 it does state that they can use the "power of the Super Saiyan to its limit" but as I said power in this case could mean, as said by definition of the word "power", the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. This could mean they can utilize the power of the Super Saiyan transformation properly without needing to worry about the strain of maintaining the form. That means Goku can use 100% power more readily than he could before minimising the strain of the transformation.

You made the distinction that MSSJ and FPSSJ are two different things, but they aren't. FPSSJ is just the official term used in the guidebooks. MSSJ is the fan term before the official term was used. You can look through all the Daizenshuu's and you won't see a single mention of the definition MSSJ. Because FPSSJ and MSSJ are one and the same.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Super Saiyan Full Power really replaces Super Saiyan Grade 1, Grade 2, and Grade 3 (I haven't decided yet personally), then it should work like this IMO:

Pre-SS Full Power
Base Goku - 1
SS Goku - 50
SSG2 Goku - 70
SSG3 Goku - 90

Post-SS Full Power
Base Goku - 1,8
SS(FP) Goku - 90

(That's without including the training gains, assuming that SSG2 = base x70 & SSG3 = base x90, and assuming that SSG3 = SSFP in terms of power,.)

So what I mean is, the SSG2/3 boosts are transfered to the base form, and the SS multiplier remains base x50.

[Super Vegetto]

In an earlier post you make it seem as if just maintaining the original form itself caused significant Ki consumption. When Vegeta fights #18, Piccolo notes that his stamina falls the more he moves but does not emphasize anything having to do with the form itself, and even after expending stamina, having his arm broken and getting beaten further, Vegeta reverts only once he loses consciousness. If it were such a strain just to stay transformed then it is not made evident here. Goku states that they should start over from “basic training”, not cut-out training entirely.

Well, Goku does say during the RoSaT that the form is difficult to maintain. And while the Ki consumption isn't that significant from what we see up until that point Goku still decides to train the form to do away with most of the Ki consumption so more energy may be used during the battle rather than being squandered away on maintaining the transformation. Goku obviously thought that reducing the Ki consumption would produce significant results for him to decide to go down that route in the first place. Otherwise what other benefit would there be from reducing Ki consumption if the consumption is so marginal it wouldn't affect a battle? I honestly think Goku and the rest of the SSJ's were only putting out something like 75% of their maximum energy output and reserving the remaining 25% for Ki consumption and dire situations(Such as Vegeta's Final Flash). Even though Vegeta didn't revert until he lost conciousness against #18 he probably still had enough energy left in reserve to maintain the transformation.

Man, ki consumption doesn't matter and it never did for SSJ or SSJ2. SSJ3 is different case...

Again Daizenshuu 2 states, Goku draws out the "power of the Super Saiyan to its limit". Doesn't get much clearer than that. It's not talking about Goku's own limit(which had also been temporary reached at that time), it's talking about the SSJ form itself. Meaning irregardless of Goku's base power, FPSSJ should still be superior to any other SSJ-branch like transformations, powerwise.

If it never mattered then explain why Goku decided to lessen/remove the ki consumption in the RoSat? Even Vegeta and Piccolo state that they minimized the strain of the form so they can more effectively use the form in battle. In the Daizenshuu 2 it does state that they can use the "power of the Super Saiyan to its limit" but as I said power in this case could mean, as said by definition of the word "power", the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. This could mean they can utilize the power of the Super Saiyan transformation properly without needing to worry about the strain of maintaining the form. That means Goku can use 100% power more readily than he could before minimising the strain of the transformation.

You made the distinction that MSSJ and FPSSJ are two different things, but they aren't. FPSSJ is just the official term used in the guidebooks. MSSJ is the fan term before the official term was used. You can look through all the Daizenshuu's and you won't see a single mention of the definition MSSJ. Because FPSSJ and MSSJ are one and the same.

Why ? Because than he could achive same amount of power that grades have, without drawbacks... Yes that's the best form for battle..Even better than SSJG2 that incrises power and speed...

I don't understand why do you explain SSJ3, and not SSJ. The strain was never so huge,,it just didn't feel natural to them,,i mean the personality changes and that's the only big deal...Vegeta was like SSJ for who knows how much pages in manga during search for Gero, and later even transforms again and fight Android 18....Just staling the battle with Cell wouldn't help him at all...

FPSSJ means Full Power Super Saiyan. MSSJ means Mastered Super Saiyan. Goku and Gohan before Cell Games are in SSJ form with control. They mastered the form so you can call them MSSJ.

Goku and Gohan both power up to full power in SSJ form against Cell. That is the difference..They are not anywhere near full power before powering up against Cell...It doesn't get much clear than that.

Now don't tell me that even after Goku displayed 50% of his power and not FP, you still want to call them FPSSJ or MSSJ because it's the same thing ?

[Hitiro]

Why ? Because than he could achive same amount of power that grades have, without drawbacks... Yes that's the best form for battle..Even better than SSJG2 that incrises power and speed...

I don't understand why do you explain SSJ3, and not SSJ. The strain was never so huge,,it just didn't feel natural to them,,i mean the personality changes and that's the only big deal...Vegeta was like SSJ for who knows how much pages in manga during search for Gero, and later even transforms again and fight Android 18....Just staling the battle with Cell wouldn't help him at all...

FPSSJ means Full Power Super Saiyan. MSSJ means Mastered Super Saiyan. Goku and Gohan before Cell Games are in SSJ form with control. They mastered the form so you can call them MSSJ.

Goku and Gohan both power up to full power in SSJ form against Cell. That is the difference..They are not anywhere near full power before powering up against Cell...It doesn't get much clear than that.

Now don't tell me that even after Goku displayed 50% of his power and not FP, you still want to call them FPSSJ or MSSJ because it's the same thing ?

I don't think you quite understand. The reason the minimised the strain on maintaining the transformation is so that they can use the power they would normally use to maintain the transformation for fighting.

This is how it can be represented:

SSJ

Goku Power Output: 75

Reserve Energy to maintain transformation: 25

FPSSJ

Goku Power Output: 95-99

Reserve Energy to maintain transformation: 5-1

As you can see because Goku reduced the energy strain to maintain the form he can exert more power in the fight. It isn't just about lengthening the battle, though stamina is also a key part of it. You can think of the increased power output as an additional increase if you want but it's really just Goku can maintain 100% properly without having to pace himself. The energy loss he would have had from not using FPSSJ could be energy he could be using in the fight. Allowing him to use a more powerful Kamehameha, as he can tag on the power he would have lost, or more powerful punches.

Then you would have:

SSJ

Kamehameha: 15

Energy lost since start of transformation: 5

FPSSJ

Kamehameha: 19

Energy lost since start of transformation: 1

Giving him more power to work with in battle, he can use what he would have initially lost to boost something else.

[Super Vegetto]

I don't know man...Losing power of SSJ with just transforming never realy looked like that in my eyes...SSJ isn't so hard to maintain,,it's just changing them in personality, making them wild/angry and pumped for fight...That's the only strain i see and they got rid of it with mastering the form...

[Hitiro]

I don't know man...Losing power of SSJ with just transforming never realy looked like that in my eyes...SSJ isn't so hard to maintain,,it's just changing them in personality, making them wild/angry and pumped for fight...That's the only strain i see and they got rid of it with mastering the form...

Well Goku clearly states the form is difficult to maintain. Piccolo and Vegeta also clarify this when they come out of the RoSaT as SSJ's. If you also watch Gohan training you can see him struggling while training before Goku shows him SSJG2 and SSG3, turning back to his normal state and panting. It may not look like it's hard to maintain but that is probably only because Goku, Vegeta and Trunks all keep a portion of their energy in reserve for specifically that reason.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
[ ]
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

[Son_Gohan]

Well, Goku does say during the RoSaT that the form is difficult to maintain. And while the Ki consumption isn't that significant from what we see up until that point Goku still decides to train the form to do away with most of the Ki consumption so more energy may be used during the battle rather than being squandered away on maintaining the transformation. Goku obviously thought that reducing the Ki consumption would produce significant results for him to decide to go down that route in the first place. Otherwise what other benefit would there be from reducing Ki consumption if the consumption is so marginal it wouldn't affect a battle? I honestly think Goku and the rest of the SSJ's were only putting out something like 75% of their maximum energy output and reserving the remaining 25% for Ki consumption and dire situations(Such as Vegeta's Final Flash). Even though Vegeta didn't revert until he lost conciousness against #18 he probably still had enough energy left in reserve to maintain the transformation.

If what you’re referring to is Gohan transforming for the first time, Goku specifically mentions maintaining the form having to do with controlling his emotions. Goku’s only statement regarding energy consumption is pertained to the Grade forms; in that context the original form is being expressed in a positive way. What Goku says he wants to get rid of is the “restless feeling” while in the form. Where ever your ideas came from they’re not words the material would express on its own. It would appear the issue is when they attempt to build up more power while Super Saiyan, not simply just being within it.

[Hitiro]

If what you’re referring to is Gohan transforming for the first time, Goku specifically mentions maintaining the form having to do with controlling his emotions. Goku’s only statement regarding energy consumption is pertained to the Grade forms; in that context the original form is being expressed in a positive way. What Goku says he wants to get rid of is the “restless feeling” while in the form. Where ever your ideas came from they’re not words the material would express on its own. It would appear the issue is when they attempt to build up more power while Super Saiyan, not simply just being within it.

I'm not on about when Gohan transforms for the first time. I'm on about when Gohan is training and Goku is sitting there. Goku then thinks Gohan is really turning into something and how fast he progressed. As he thinks that Gohan reverts back. Bending over and putting his hands on his knees, panting. Then Goku shows him the graded forms. Also, what Goku says about the graded forms is also in relation to regular SSJ.

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Here Goku says the graded forms use up energy at "too" intense a rate. That implies the regular SSJ form also uses up energy at an intense rate, just not as much as the graded forms. If he were merely on about the graded forms he the word "too" wouldn't have been included. The line would have simply been it uses up energy at an intense rate.

[sekzee]

Those are quite the assumptions.

How about Gohan is simply panting because he just got done training and wanted to take a breather?

[Hitiro]

Those are quite the assumptions.

How about Gohan is simply panting because he just got done training and wanted to take a breather?

He turns into a SSSJ flies up into the air, swings a couple of kicks and punches and then he turns back to normal and is completely exhausted? It is literally 2 and a half pages(And considering Goku took up a few panels too so its probably less than that) of him doing that and he is panting. I'm sorry but it is way too short for him to stop just for a "breather."

[kuartus4]

Those are quite the assumptions.

How about Gohan is simply panting because he just got done training and wanted to take a breather?

He turns into a SSSJ flies up into the air, swings a couple of kicks and punches and then he turns back to normal and is completely exhausted? It is literally 2 and a half pages(And considering Goku took up a few panels too so its probably less than that) of him doing that and he is panting. I'm sorry but it is way too short for him to stop just for a "breather."

Judging by the context, I would say that Gohan had been sparring as long as Goku had been just sitting there, which was probably some time since Gohan remarks that all Goku had been doing lately was just sitting.

If what you’re referring to is Gohan transforming for the first time, Goku specifically mentions maintaining the form having to do with controlling his emotions. Goku’s only statement regarding energy consumption is pertained to the Grade forms; in that context the original form is being expressed in a positive way. What Goku says he wants to get rid of is the “restless feeling” while in the form. Where ever your ideas came from they’re not words the material would express on its own. It would appear the issue is when they attempt to build up more power while Super Saiyan, not simply just being within it.

Tenshinhan makes the remark that he always thought it took an incredible amount of effort to sustain the super saiyan state. At least he does in the viz, right after Goku and Gohan fly off to Korin's.

[Hitiro]

Judging by the context, I would say that Gohan had been sparring as long as Goku had been just sitting there, which was probably some time since Gohan remarks that all Goku had been doing lately was just sitting.

It literally all happened in one sitting. There was no break where it came back to Gohan "still" training. In the panels you actually see Gohan go from his base state to SSJ, throw a few punches and kicks then revert back to base exhausted. You can also see before he transformed that he had yet to do anything because there was no sweat until he started flinging punches and kicks in SSJ. Gohan does remark that all Goku had been doing lately was sitting around. But that doesn't change the fact that he only just begun to train.