We didn't see Saiyan saga Vegeta blow up any planets in the manga and we have no reason to believe that what he said is true. If you are going to bring anime-only filler into the debate then it's pointless debating any character's PL.
Who said anything about filler? I'm talking about the manga. He said he could turn the planet into dust, no one contradicted him, the story never implied he was lying, and the guidebooks later confirmed he could.
Vegeta isn't 3600 times stronger than the Farmer with a PL of 5 when Vegeta is firing his ki blast. You are missing the point. First of all even if 3600 guys each with a PL of 5 combined their ki blasts it wouldn't do what Vegeta's attack can do.
3600 people with a PL of 5 each =/= one person with a PL of 18,000
You're missing the point. What I was saying was that, even if using a ki attack gave him a power level of one million (which it doesn't), thus making him two hundred thousand times stronger than the farmer, it wouldn't matter, because of the tremendous difference in scale. Same with 408 Piccolo blowing up the moon. Are you seriously trying to argue that power levels are linear?
Combined ki attacks were effective in Movie #1, Movie #10, and in the Plan to Destroy the Saiyans OVA. But that's anime only filler and it's not even consistent with other anime only filler. For example when Bardock, who was already wounded and exhausted, was flying towards Freeza's spaceship he got blasted by several opponents and their combined attack did nothing to him.
When did combined ki blasts ever work in the manga? When did a buch of weak people defeat a much stronger person by combining their attacks in the manga? I can't think of even one example.
One, we don't know that it's not possible in the manga. I think that it is, as otherwise Freeza wouldn't have been scared of a saiyan uprising. Two, he only got blasted by a few opponents, and all of them were tremendously weaker than him.
Piccolo isn't "100 times stronger than the Farmer" when Piccolo blows up the moon even if the attack wasn't charged up. You are comparing two completely different characters, who have vastly different abilities. The Farmer is a normal human who for all we know has no idea how to fire a ki blast. Piccolo is an experienced martial artist, he knows what the hell he is doing. Comparing Videl to Majin Spopovich makes a lot more sense than comparing someone like Piccolo or Vegeta to the Farmer.
No, it doesn't. By your logic, his raw power should only be equivalent to about one hundred farmers. It doesn't matter if he "knows what he's doing", that's the power he's using. That's how strong his blasts and, more specifically, his punches would be. Furthermore, Daimao wasn't many times weaker than his son, and knew how to use ki just like him, yet his son could blow the moon up easily while Daimao could only nuke a city.
Videl and Spopovich are the worst comparison to make, since we don't know their battle powers.
I know you will say "then why are you comparing Videl (a human) to kid Goku (a saiyan)?" Because kid Goku has to be compared to someone to try to figure out how powerful he was. And we certainly can't compare kid Goku from the beginning of DB to kid Gohan or kid Trunks, or kid Goten, or kid Pan from DBZ. It does make sense to compare him to a human teenage girl who knows martial arts and who was able to really f up Majin Spopovich. Videl isn't a "normal" human and Majin Spopovich wasn't "normal" either. But both of them were obviously more powerful than that Farmer (PL 5). It's not unreasonable to assume that Videl might have a PL of at least 10 or even more and so did Majin Spopovich. And Videl can't tank bullets, or lift and throw cars, or crush giant rocks with her bare hands like kid Goku could in the very beginning of DB.
Why must Videl be 10?
Why is she comparable to kid Goku? Why, other than that you say so? Why can't she and Spopovich be far below 10? You keep saying "it's not unreasonable to assume...". But I don't care. I don't want assumptions or speculation based on nothing. I want
real, actual, concrete proof that Videl and Spopovich had to be above 10. Also,
real, actual, concrete proof that anyone who can fire a ki blast can kill all life on Earth, as would be the case if power levels were linear, and that Goku's saiyan body can't be what let him tanks bullets (given that the same guidebook specifies his physical strength as something separate from his ki, and credits his ability to shrug off a bullet to his body).
The argument that "kid Goku is an alien so he is naturally able to do these things even with a PL of 10" doesn't work. We never saw Dende, or any Namekian kids, doing anything like that and they are aliens too.
No one said anything about him being able to do this because he's an alien. It's because he's a
saiyan. He's very physically strong, fitting a warrior race, and 'designed' to survive in x10 Earth's gravity. Dende is not.
And let's be honest here, when Toriyama wrote that chapter kid Goku wasn't an alien, he was just a human looking kid with a tail based on a character from a Chinese legend. He was at most superhuman, the whole "alien-who-can-survive-in-10-times-Earth's-gravity" business didn't happen until much, much later.
Hey, guess what? So did battle powers.
Absolutely not. All he has to do is: be difficult to restrain or land at least one punch on Grandpa Gohan that would hurt or at least surprise Grandpa Gohan even a little. He doesn't have to be near Grandpa Gohan's level to do that. (Piccolo and Gohan were weaker than Nappa and they still hurt him with basic ki blasts. An angry Gohan sucker punched Dodoria and knocked him down for a few seconds and Gohan was still weaker than Dodoria at that point.)
Which qualifies as being near him in power by DB standards. WHY does he have to be that strong? Gohan specifically said Goku wasn't dangerous to him, just that he was strong for a little kid. If he were anywhere near strong enough to do that, then Gohan would've been a joke to him in the Baba arc, where he's many times stronger than he used to be.
And a weak opponent with a PL of only 10 wouldn't be able to do any of the above to Grandpa Gohan. An opponent that weak is a joke to an experienced martial artist who was probably somewhere near Roshi's level.
You've still given no reason as to why a generic "you're strong" comment needs to have all of this, given that there are numerous instances in the manga of someone calling another strong just because they're strong by their standards, despite not being near the person making that statement. Especially when he's three years old. He's comparing Goku to other three year olds, not immortal martial arts masters like himself and Roshi. How many superhuman three year olds do you think he knows?
There's another way to try to estimate how strong kid Goku was in the beginning of DB. We know that after training with Roshi he was able to fight Roshi in the 21st Martial Arts Tournament and he came very close to winning. I'm not saying that after Roshi's training kid Goku was at ~139 only that he could be. Do you really believe that Roshi's training was so great that it improved kid Goku's PL from 10 all the way to ~139? I don't think so. Much of Roshi's training was bullshit that Goku could have done on his own. Roshi didn't teach Goku how to control his ki, or how to fly, or how to do a charged up ki attack. Kamisama did. For kid Goku to go from a PL of 10 all the way to ~139 after Roshi's training is a huge, huge improvement and it's not consistent with what we see later. Goku was trained by Kamisama for 3 years and went from as strong as Piccolo Daimao to as strong as Piccolo Jr. Is Roshi a better martial arts teacher than Kamisama? That would be really ridiculous and a huge plot hole if it's true. I can accept that Roshi's training improved kid Goku's PL from ~60 to ~139 but certainly not from 10 to 139.
Chapter: 113, P14.1-2
Goku: “I hope I beat you this time--!”
Jackie Chun: “Ho ho ho! It seems you’ve trained even more, eh? This will be fun.”
Jackie Chun (thinking): “You’ve got to be kidding. I’m Muten Roshi; I can’t lose no matter what. I’ve been training in secret myself!”
Roshi at the beginning of Z is much stronger than he is at the 21st Budokai. And yes, I do believe that it's more than possible for his training to make him way stronger, since this is the same series where climbing a tower alone made Goku many times greater.
I hate having to repeat myself, but you've still no given proof or evidence for any of your claims. Just a whole lot of assumptions.
