When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[kuartus4]

Judging by the context, I would say that Gohan had been sparring as long as Goku had been just sitting there, which was probably some time since Gohan remarks that all Goku had been doing lately was just sitting.

It literally all happened in one sitting. There was no break where it came back to Gohan "still" training. In the panels you actually see Gohan go from his base state to SSJ, throw a few punches and kicks then revert back to base exhausted. You can also see before he transformed that he had yet to do anything because there was no sweat until he started flinging punches and kicks in SSJ. Gohan does remark that all Goku had been doing lately was sitting around. But that doesn't change the fact that he only just begun to train.

No. the implications of the scene suggest some time had gone by between Gohan beginning to train and then stopping. Why would Goku just be sitting there for any longer than that when his goal was to spar with ssj Gohan?

[Hitiro]

No. the implications of the scene suggest some time had gone by between Gohan beginning to train and then stopping. Why would Goku just be sitting there for any longer than that when his goal was to spar with ssj Gohan?

Nothing in this scene suggests this. There is no transition to the outside of the RoSaT to suggest some time had passed since Gohan started training. And no, Goku didn't spar with SSJ Gohan during or after this time. The moment Gohan was exhausted he stood up and demonstrated Grade 2 and Grade 3 and then told Gohan that the forms were useless. I don't know where in the scene you think some time had gone by since Gohan began training and stopped because every panel is a continuation from the previous one. It all flows as if it was a flip book. Look at the pages yourself. You'll see just what I'm talking about.

[kuartus4]

No. the implications of the scene suggest some time had gone by between Gohan beginning to train and then stopping. Why would Goku just be sitting there for any longer than that when his goal was to spar with ssj Gohan?

Nothing in this scene suggests this. There is no transition to the outside of the RoSaT to suggest some time had passed since Gohan started training. And no, Goku didn't spar with SSJ Gohan during or after this time. The moment Gohan was exhausted he stood up and demonstrated Grade 2 and Grade 3 and then told Gohan that the forms were useless. I don't know where in the scene you think some time had gone by since Gohan began training and stopped because every panel is a continuation from the previous one. It all flows as if it was a flip book. Look at the pages yourself. You'll see just what I'm talking about.

This is what we see. Gohan in base standing with Goku sitting there not too far from him. Gohan says nothing about Goku just sitting there lately. Gohan powers up to ssj and begins training. Only after we see Gohan sweating from training, does Gohan say that all Goku has been doing is just sitting there. That's what I'm talking about. That's where I see the implication that some time had passed.

[Hitiro]

This is what we see. Gohan in base standing with Goku sitting there not too far from him. Gohan says nothing about Goku just sitting there lately. Gohan powers up to ssj and begins training. Only after we see Gohan sweating from training, does Gohan say that all Goku has been doing is just sitting there. That's what I'm talking about. That's where I see the implication that some time had passed.

I actually see it myself now. But it doesn't change the fact that Gohan reverts after being exhausted. And really what is his definition of how long Goku had been sitting there? An hour? 2? We can establish we can clearly see there is a strain in maintaining the transformation for a certain length of time, so the energy consumption isn't that negligible.

[Son_Gohan]

I'm not on about when Gohan transforms for the first time. I'm on about when Gohan is training and Goku is sitting there. Goku then thinks Gohan is really turning into something and how fast he progressed. As he thinks that Gohan reverts back. Bending over and putting his hands on his knees, panting. Then Goku shows him the graded forms. Also, what Goku says about the graded forms is also in relation to regular SSJ.

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Here Goku says the graded forms use up energy at "too" intense a rate. That implies the regular SSJ form also uses up energy at an intense rate, just not as much as the graded forms. If he were merely on about the graded forms he the word "too" wouldn't have been included. The line would have simply been it uses up energy at an intense rate.

Gohan is shown training intensely while Super Saiyan then reverts on his own accord. That does not give the impression that being in the form itself would cause significant energy consumption. He expends a lot of energy in Super Saiyan, and the transformation does not leave him beyond his control. Statements characters have made on what simply being in the form entails is that there’s a mental/emotional aspect. Vegeta explains how it causes them to become more ferocious and over-excited; Goku describes it being a “restless feeling”. So it would appear they’d have trouble keeping composure and resting while in that state. As far as it being a conscious effort in maintaining the form that it would tax their energy reserves, the characters don’t make that explicit by words or actions.

His statements seem to be referring to the form he’s in at that moment. The implication may apply to the 2nd Grade as he never uses it again either, but taking it mean the original form is really stretching the interpretation of one line further than the casual reader would be mindful of.

He turns into a SSSJ flies up into the air, swings a couple of kicks and punches and then he turns back to normal and is completely exhausted? It is literally 2 and a half pages(And considering Goku took up a few panels too so its probably less than that) of him doing that and he is panting. I'm sorry but it is way too short for him to stop just for a "breather."

Since Goku is shown to be impressed by Gohan’s display, it is emphasized visually by droplets of sweat, and he’s trying to catch his breath by the end; that would suggest to the reader he is training as hard as he can.

Sprinters who perform at their maximum from the get-go will always fatigue sooner than marathon runners who pace themselves in the same activity.

[Hitiro]

Gohan is shown training intensely while Super Saiyan then reverts on his own accord. That does not give the impression that being in the form itself would cause significant energy consumption. He expends a lot of energy in Super Saiyan, and the transformation does not leave him beyond his control. Statements characters have made on what simply being in the form entails is that there’s a mental/emotional aspect. Vegeta explains how it causes them to become more ferocious and over-excited; Goku describes it being a “restless feeling”. So it would appear they’d have trouble keeping composure and resting while in that state. As far as it being a conscious effort in maintaining the form that it would tax their energy reserves, the characters don’t make that explicit by words or actions.

Vegeta makes it very clear at the lookout that the SSJ form puts a strain on their bodies and Goku has purposely made an effort to make the form feel more natural so that when they fight at a higher battle power(e.g. 100%) they can minimise/remove that strain.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

As you can see from what Vegeta says, there is a strain on the body. And Goku trained to make sure it is small when exerting their power. If it were only to remove the mental/emotional aspect it wouldn't provide that huge a benefit. What benefit would removing a bit of ferociousness serve? It seems to be a very insignificant thing to remove. It isn't going to decide a whole battle if you are a bit more ferocious then normal. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks have already demonstrated that the ferociousness they have in battle doesn't effect how they fight. They are all level-headed fighters despite this additional mental/emotional aspect. They wouldn't be martial artists if they couldn't supersede that aspect and fight as all martial artists would.

Also Goku purposely reduces the training down to basic training so that both him and Gohan can maintain the transformation for an extended time. If there is no concious effort in maintaining the form they wouldn't need to reduce the training down to basic training. They would just train the way they do normally and keep the transformation up. You can't say this is no concious effort as Gohan clearly loses the transformation after his workout when he is exhausted. No effort would mean he would just be huffing and puffing while still transformed.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Elder Kaioshin also strongly implies that SSJ puts a strain on the body when he tells Goku not to fuse in SSJ because "Saiyans can't stay that way forever, and it may shorten your life." If there was no strain, then that wouldn't be an issue.

[Hitiro]

The Elder Kaioshin also strongly implies that SSJ puts a strain on the body when he tells Goku not to fuse in SSJ because "Saiyans can't stay that way forever, and it may shorten your life." If there was no strain, then that wouldn't be an issue.

That line actually completely left me. I forgot the Rou Kaioshin said that.

[Son_Gohan]

Vegeta makes it very clear at the lookout that the SSJ form puts a strain on their bodies and Goku has purposely made an effort to make the form feel more natural so that when they fight at a higher battle power(e.g. 100%) they can minimise/remove that strain.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

As you can see from what Vegeta says, there is a strain on the body. And Goku trained to make sure it is small when exerting their power. If it were only to remove the mental/emotional aspect it wouldn't provide that huge a benefit. What benefit would removing a bit of ferociousness serve? It seems to be a very insignificant thing to remove. It isn't going to decide a whole battle if you are a bit more ferocious then normal. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks have already demonstrated that the ferociousness they have in battle doesn't effect how they fight. They are all level-headed fighters despite this additional mental/emotional aspect. They wouldn't be martial artists if they couldn't supersede that aspect and fight as all martial artists would.

Also Goku purposely reduces the training down to basic training so that both him and Gohan can maintain the transformation for an extended time. If there is no concious effort in maintaining the form they wouldn't need to reduce the training down to basic training. They would just train the way they do normally and keep the transformation up. You can't say this is no concious effort as Gohan clearly loses the transformation after his workout when he is exhausted. No effort would mean he would just be huffing and puffing while still transformed.

Vegeta is addressing the strain caused by raising their battle power as Super Saiyan; making reference to the Grade forms. Even when displaying 50% of his power to Karin, Goku’s muscles appear to bulge similar to the two Grade stages for only a moment.

Judging by how character’s have described it, Super Saiyan could feel, in real-life terms, as a constant adrenaline rush. It makes the body work harder, so that it is fit for action; which is not a natural state. But the effects are intended to provide more energy to the person, having it continually flow through them. When a character in the manga exerts reserves of Ki that cause the flow to increase past a limit their bodies can contain, the result is physical strain (Master Roshi at 100%, Goku with the Kaio-ken, Freeza at 100%, SSJ G2 & 3).

The story would indicate that Super Saiyan does not consume energy so much as it gives it. When Goku first became a Super Saiyan, he had exhausted his body to its limit battling Freeza prior to transforming. If maintaining the form did in fact take a significant toll on energy consumption, then it evidently wouldn’t have lasted very long.

[Hitiro]

Vegeta is addressing the strain caused by raising their battle power as Super Saiyan; making reference to the Grade forms. Even when displaying 50% of his power to Karin, Goku’s muscles appear to bulge similar to the two Grade stages for only a moment.

Vegeta is definitely not making a reference to the graded forms as Trunks said “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!” and Vegeta states that they have judged SSJ to be the best state. Goku raising his battle power pertains to his battle power just as a Super Saiyan. I also suggest you re-look at Goku's muscles in that chapter. Goku's size does not change, it merely looks like that because of the way his arm closest to us is drawn. There is no physical difference presented from him even when he demonstrated 100% of his power his muscle mass didn't change.

Judging by how character’s have described it, Super Saiyan could feel, in real-life terms, as a constant adrenaline rush. It makes the body work harder, so that it is fit for action; which is not a natural state. But the effects are intended to provide more energy to the person, having it continually flow through them. When a character in the manga exerts reserves of Ki that cause the flow to increase past a limit their bodies can contain, the result is physical strain (Master Roshi at 100%, Goku with the Kaio-ken, Freeza at 100%, SSJ G2 & 3).

Even if you see it that way, the strain still effects energy consumption. We see this with both Kaio-ken x20 and Freeza at 100%. Goku was stated to lose energy when he used Kaioken x20 and Freeza was losing energy while maintaining 100%, Goku states this in the fight and tells him he isn't even a challenge any more.

The story would indicate that Super Saiyan does not consume energy so much as it gives it. When Goku first became a Super Saiyan, he had exhausted his body to its limit battling Freeza prior to transforming. If maintaining the form did in fact take a significant toll on energy consumption, then it evidently wouldn’t have lasted very long.[/quote]You realise Goku was fighting properly with Freeza as a SSJ for, at most, 5 mins. Right? Freeza said the planet had 5 mins after he launched his attack at the planet. While it is indeed a significant toll on energy consumption I'm pretty sure Goku could hold up for 5-10 mins. Most people also think that the initial SSJ transformation provided him with some recovery as we see he could barely stand before he launched the Genki Dama but now he is perfectly fine after the transformation.

Also, like Kamiccolo9 said:

The Elder Kaioshin also strongly implies that SSJ puts a strain on the body when he tells Goku not to fuse in SSJ because "Saiyans can't stay that way forever, and it may shorten your life." If there was no strain, then that wouldn't be an issue.

[Super Vegetto]

Goku and Gohan were not staying SSJ all the time,,only during day time...Staying powered up forever could actualy result in heart attack or something for Vegetto...

Btw i can't find the quote in translations,,only says this:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

[Son_Gohan]

Vegeta is definitely not making a reference to the graded forms as Trunks said “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!” and Vegeta states that they have judged SSJ to be the best state. Goku raising his battle power pertains to his battle power just as a Super Saiyan. I also suggest you re-look at Goku's muscles in that chapter. Goku's size does not change, it merely looks like that because of the way his arm closest to us is drawn. There is no physical difference presented from him even when he demonstrated 100% of his power his muscle mass didn't change.

Even if you see it that way, the strain still effects energy consumption. We see this with both Kaio-ken x20 and Freeza at 100%. Goku was stated to lose energy when he used Kaioken x20 and Freeza was losing energy while maintaining 100%, Goku states this in the fight and tells him he isn't even a challenge any more.

You realise Goku was fighting properly with Freeza as a SSJ for, at most, 5 mins. Right? Freeza said the planet had 5 mins after he launched his attack at the planet. While it is indeed a significant toll on energy consumption I'm pretty sure Goku could hold up for 5-10 mins. Most people also think that the initial SSJ transformation provided him with some recovery as we see he could barely stand before he launched the Genki Dama but now he is perfectly fine after the transformation.

Also, like Kamiccolo9 said:

The Elder Kaioshin also strongly implies that SSJ puts a strain on the body when he tells Goku not to fuse in SSJ because "Saiyans can't stay that way forever, and it may shorten your life." If there was no strain, then that wouldn't be an issue.

In the manga those forms are the result of raising their battle powers as Super Saiyan. No one becomes a 2nd or 3rd Grade straight from their base form, or skips the 2nd to become the 3rd. We only give them names because of the Daizenshuu. Trunks bringing up the subject of transformation already puts those forms into context for the reader. If all Vegeta was referring to was maintaining the original form then “even if they raise their battle power” wouldn’t need to be there. The bulging vein drawn on his arm would emphasize it being more than just perspective.

Any form of work causes energy consumption, but you’re arguing for something being more significant than what it’s shown to be. Super Saiyan Goku would have experienced the same effect that 100% Freeza did if that were the case, yet there is a clear contrast where he isn’t even shown to be breathing heavily. Refer back to the running analogy, and how duration of activity is not the sole determinant in energy expenditure. After transforming, Goku engages Freeza in a fierce battle once more, takes hits even further, fires a Kamehameha at full blast, even spares Freeza some of his energy, finishes him off with a blast right after, then rushes away and remains in the form till the planet explodes. By adopting your viewpoint none of that holds any credibility, he would have reverted against his will after everything he’d been through; instead he stays transformed till the very end, and without showing a sign of it severely taxing him in any way. Unless you can produce some really good evidence that speaks for itself, then there’s no reason to argue it further than this.

[Hitiro]

Goku and Gohan were not staying SSJ all the time,,only during day time...Staying powered up forever could actualy result in heart attack or something for Vegetto...

Btw i can't find the quote in translations,,only says this:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

I think the line is before this quote. Herms would be able to tell us but I doubt we'll ever know unless we get it translated ourselves because I don't think he's going to pop in here just to clarify.

In the manga those forms are the result of raising their battle powers as Super Saiyan. No one becomes a 2nd or 3rd Grade straight from their base form, or skips the 2nd to become the 3rd. We only give them names because of the Daizenshuu. Trunks bringing up the subject of transformation already puts those forms into context for the reader. If all Vegeta was referring to was maintaining the original form then “even if they raise their battle power” wouldn’t need to be there. The bulging vein drawn on his arm would emphasize it being more than just perspective.

Can you explain why it wouldn't need to be there? If you aren't fighting at 100% capacity as a SSJ then you can still raise your battle power until you reach 100%. As was said in the quote Goku and Gohan have deemed the original transformation to be the best state to fight in. So they won't be doing any transformations during the fight. They'll just be able to fight at their best with a reduced strain on their body. As Vegeta implies in the Strength Checker. I really don't understand your basis for believing Vegeta was on about the graded forms when Vegeta clearly says Goku and Gohan will be fighting with the regular SSJ.

Any form of work causes energy consumption, but you’re arguing for something being more significant than what it’s shown to be. Super Saiyan Goku would have experienced the same effect that 100% Freeza did if that were the case, yet there is a clear contrast where he isn’t even shown to be breathing heavily. Refer back to the running analogy, and how duration of activity is not the sole determinant in energy expenditure. After transforming, Goku engages Freeza in a fierce battle once more, takes hits even further, fires a Kamehameha at full blast, even spares Freeza some of his energy, finishes him off with a blast right after, then rushes away and remains in the form till the planet explodes. By adopting your viewpoint none of that holds any credibility, he would have reverted against his will after everything he’d been through; instead he stays transformed till the very end, and without showing a sign of it severely taxing him in any way. Unless you can produce some really good evidence that speaks for itself, then there’s no reason to argue it further than this.

You're making it sound as if Goku would run out at the same rate as Freeza would. As I told you there is a belief that Goku's energy was renewed with the first activation of the transformation because it was his first time. That would explain why Goku who could barely stand and had to receive help from Piccolo could all of a sudden shrug off the fatigue he gained while fighting against Freeza in the first place. Freeza also suffered a lot of damage from the Genki Dama so a lot of his energy was spent and need I remind you that he also launched a planet busting attack which he stated would use up a portion of his energy. So if you look at it then Freeza was in a worse position than Goku energy-wise. Also, as I said, everything that happened after he went SSJ was in the span of less than 5 mins, due to Freeza saying the planet had 5 mins till it blew up. I never said the energy consumption for the form was so big that Goku couldn't hold SSJ for 5 mins. Maybe 30 mins to an hour is reasonable for how long he had left. There is no reason to believe that after everything he'd been through that he wouldn't be able to maintain the transformation for 5 mins.

Also, you are also missing out what Rou Kaioshin said about Saiyans not being able to maintain SSJ forever, even with the MSSJ. It clearly points out in multiple places that it requires energy to maintain the transformations. I also don't see why only the graded forms would be the ones that have energy consumption. Considering we even see later that SSJ3 also has energy consumption we can assume all transformations have an energy consumption to maintain the forms.