Out of Character Moments in the series

[ABED]

It's not a rage boost. Rage boosts are temporary.

He got a rage boost on top of his SS2 transformation. No, they don't have to be split-second, and officially, they aren't. But what I was saying that he didn't need any rage (i.e. no power boost or transformation) at the moment. He was already stronger than everyone else, even Cell before Cell did his huge power up, and easily could've crushed the Juniors.

Of course they are temporary. Gohan's power increases with his anger, then dissipates. That was always the case. This is different, Gohan needs a trigger to transform.

It's not clear how much stronger than Cell Gohan is, or if that's even the case. It's only shown that Gohan is close to Cell's strength.

[RandomGuy96]

It's not a rage boost. Rage boosts are temporary.

He got a rage boost on top of his SS2 transformation. No, they don't have to be split-second, and officially, they aren't. But what I was saying that he didn't need any rage (i.e. no power boost or transformation) at the moment. He was already stronger than everyone else, even Cell before Cell did his huge power up, and easily could've crushed the Juniors.

Of course they are temporary. Gohan's power increases with his anger, then dissipates. That was always the case. This is different, Gohan needs a trigger to transform.

It's not clear how much stronger than Cell Gohan is, or if that's even the case. It's only shown that Gohan is close to Cell's strength.

No, it is shown that Gohan can completely out speed Cell and take his attacks head on with no real damage, and easily floor Cell the one time he actually throws a hit.

[ABED]

No, it is shown that Gohan can completely out speed Cell and take his attacks head on with no real damage, and easily floor Cell the one time he actually throws a hit.

They aren't fighting serious yet. It's the beginning of the fight. I wouldn't judge Freeza and Goku's comparative strength based off the beginning of their battle.

[RandomGuy96]

No, it is shown that Gohan can completely out speed Cell and take his attacks head on with no real damage, and easily floor Cell the one time he actually throws a hit.

They aren't fighting serious yet. It's the beginning of the fight. I wouldn't judge Freeza and Goku's comparative strength based off the beginning of their battle.

Of course Cell isn't fighting serious. He still has more power in store that he's not using, just like Freeza and Goku. But no one should know that at this point. They should just know the power he uses against Gohan and Goku, which Gohan is far superior to.

[ABED]

No, it is shown that Gohan can completely out speed Cell and take his attacks head on with no real damage, and easily floor Cell the one time he actually throws a hit.

They aren't fighting serious yet. It's the beginning of the fight. I wouldn't judge Freeza and Goku's comparative strength based off the beginning of their battle.

Of course Cell isn't fighting serious. He still has more power in store that he's not using, just like Freeza and Goku. But no one should know that at this point. They should just know the power he uses against Gohan and Goku, which Gohan is far superior to.

We know that by context. He's not breathing heavy, he's not upset, etc.

Gohan isn't shown to be far superior to Cell. If he was, Gohan would've been able to break free of Cell's bearhug.

[Zephyr]

So he cares more about a piece of machinery being broken (a piece of machinery that was going to kill his dad anyway) than his friends and family getting beaten to death? It's not like he ever required an actual 'death' to get a rage boost before. Nor does he even need one in that moment.

As has been pointed out, if THIS was Gohan's character, then the whole Namek arc would've been a bust, since Freeza would have killed Piccolo, because Gohan would be sitting on the sidelines trembling like a wuss and refusing to fight.

This sentient piece of generally peaceful machinery who switched sides and is now on Gohan's team and shares his general indifference for fighting for fighting's sake getting crushed to death a couple of feet in front of him sent him over the edge after seeing his friends get beaten up and not killed. Correct.

I hope you're not forgetting that it's all of these combined factors that weren't present together during the fight with Freeza that make him act this way at the Cell Games. Kind of makes the continued comparison completely pointless.

was that an internal struggle he was dealing with?

I wouldn't say there was a struggle, but being reminded that he could just kill Cell and get it over with instead of worrying about all of this other shit probably helped nudge him in the right direction a little bit. But again with the brutal death that immediately followed. I doubt the speech alone would have done squat.

[ABED]

I doubt the speech alone would have done squat.

Which is why I didn't argue that point.

[RandomGuy96]

We know that by context. He's not breathing heavy, he's not upset, etc.

Gohan isn't shown to be far superior to Cell. If he was, Gohan would've been able to break free of Cell's bearhug.

He was shown panting after the end of his fight with the much-weaker-than-Gohan Goku. The others wouldn't have any way of knowing he was just randomly hiding a bunch of power, like he was.

Yes, he is. As I said, he was shown to be way faster, way more durable, and floored Cell with the one hit he threw. He couldn't escape from the bearhug for two reasons: one, the series repeatedly shows it's hard to escape someone's grasp, even if they are weaker than you (we just saw that with Cell and 16). Two:

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P9.1-2
Context: as Cell has Gohan in a bear hug
Cell: “You don’t want to die like this, do you? Well, what’s the matter? What are you hesitating for!? Your bones will break. There’s no way you could hate fighting this much."

This indicates that, at least according to Cell, he could escape if he wasn't being such a wuss.

This sentient piece of generally peaceful machinery who switched sides and is now on Gohan's team and shares his general indifference for fighting for fighting's sake getting crushed to death a couple of feet in front of him sent him over the edge after seeing his friends get beaten up and not killed. Correct.

I hope you're not forgetting that it's all of these combined factors that weren't present together during the fight with Freeza that make him act this way at the Cell Games. Kind of makes the continued comparison completely pointless.

So a defective killing machine was broken. Okay. Why does he care? Why doesn't he care more about everyone getting beaten to death in front of him, especially when Cell, the guy who killed hundreds of thousands of actual people, ordered his minions to kill them?

What factors?

[ABED]

He had since recovered, and he was in a FAR more physical fight, in which Goku or Cell acknowledged that Cell was holding back to have a better fight.

Gohan wasn't shown to be MORE durable than Cell, Cell took very little damage during their fight. He got in a good shot, just like Goku did many times during their fight.

If Gohan is SO much stronger than Cell, then what purpose does SS2 serve?

[RandomGuy96]

He had since recovered, and he was in a FAR more physical fight, in which Goku or Cell acknowledged that Cell was holding back to have a better fight.

Gohan wasn't shown to be MORE durable than Cell, Cell took very little damage during their fight. He got in a good shot, just like Goku did many times during their fight.

If Gohan is SO much stronger than Cell, then what purpose does SS2 serve?

When did Goku say he knew Cell was holding back power?

If you can tank a bunch of someone's attacks head on without your ki dropping at all, as was explicitly shown and stated, I'm pretty sure you're stronger.

To overpower Cell's full power, which he had not yet shown.

[ABED]

He had since recovered, and he was in a FAR more physical fight, in which Goku or Cell acknowledged that Cell was holding back to have a better fight.

Gohan wasn't shown to be MORE durable than Cell, Cell took very little damage during their fight. He got in a good shot, just like Goku did many times during their fight.

If Gohan is SO much stronger than Cell, then what purpose does SS2 serve?

When did Goku say he knew Cell was holding back power?

If you can tank a bunch of someone's attacks head on without your ki dropping at all, as was explicitly shown and stated, I'm pretty sure you're stronger.

His attacks weren't at full power, that proves nothing. Goku got lucky shots against Freeza

and Gohan didn't floor Cell, he knocked him on his ass ONCE. It was the beginning of the battle and Cell's still feeling Gohan out and not taking him serious.

It makes no sense that Gohan would need a transformation if he's as much stronger than Cell as you say. Then there's the second rage boost which you claim.

[RandomGuy96]

He had since recovered, and he was in a FAR more physical fight, in which Goku or Cell acknowledged that Cell was holding back to have a better fight.

Gohan wasn't shown to be MORE durable than Cell, Cell took very little damage during their fight. He got in a good shot, just like Goku did many times during their fight.

If Gohan is SO much stronger than Cell, then what purpose does SS2 serve?

When did Goku say he knew Cell was holding back power?

If you can tank a bunch of someone's attacks head on without your ki dropping at all, as was explicitly shown and stated, I'm pretty sure you're stronger.

His attacks weren't at full power, that proves nothing. Goku got lucky shots against Freeza

and Gohan didn't floor Cell, he knocked him on his ass ONCE. It was the beginning of the battle and Cell's still feeling Gohan out and not taking him serious.

It makes no sense that Gohan would need a transformation if he's as much stronger than Cell as you say. Then there's the second rage boost which you claim.

They weren't at full power, but they were the full extent of the power he was showing everyone.

Once, with the one hit he threw. It knocked Cell down and made him bleed. Imagine if he had actually tried to fight.

He needed a transformation + rage boost (which isn't what I claim, that's the official stance) because Cell was stronger than him. I don't see why I need to repeat myself, but Gohan had a decisive advantage on the Cell that fought Goku (and the power everyone thought was Cell's full), but his actual strength, which he him from everyone until Gohan went SS2.

[Zephyr]

So a defective killing machine was broken. Okay. Why does he care?

sentient

peaceful

switched sides

shares his general indifference for fighting for fighting's sake

Why would anyone care about a like-minded comrade who actually did no wrong while on the opposite team being brutally killed in front of them?

Why doesn't he care more about everyone getting beaten to death in front of him, especially when Cell, the guy who killed hundreds of thousands of actual people, ordered his minions to kill them?

seeing his friends get beaten up and not killed

crushed to death a couple of feet in front of him

Are we trying to argue that his distinction is nonexistent or irrelevant? Knowing people are getting killed and seeing someone killed before your very eyes aren't allowed to beget different reactions? Seeing your loved ones getting beat up and seeing them getting killed aren't allowed to beget different reactions? Next you'll bring up "but on Namek..."

What factors?

Sure I'll just quote my posts from earlier today that you either hadn't read or ignored:

He was the only one that could save Piccolo when third form Freeza was killing him. Yet, he acted, he tried his best, and he managed to save him.

He was the only one that could save Piccolo and the others when Cell and the Cell jrs were killing them. Yet, he didn't act, he didn't try, he just stood there..

The latter was preceded by the revelation that he was the strongest fighter around, and Gohan actually thinking about how dangerous his power is.

The former was not.

Right before Namek and the Androids went sour, everyone wasn't all "okay Gohan, were just handing this shit off to you, there's nothing anyone but you can do. Have fun lol". Shit just happened, and Gohan acted out of instinct. Shit didn't just happen with Cell. They tried forcing it, Gohan over-thought things, and he choked. I can relate 100%.

Never, not even once, has his power been shown or implied to be greater than ~Gokuuuuuuuu~. The unheard-of idea that he's truly now stronger than Goku comes literally from nowhere, so an unheard of reaction seems pretty natural.

This has the exception of Raditz, but...

Fair enough, there is indeed one slight instance of precedence for this kind of thing. One that Gohan was knocked unconscious immediately after, and not informed of the explicit details of. This is still THE big bad. THE final battle. And the de-facto "strongest guy around", his father, is throwing in the towel, and tagging in and passing the torch to Gohan. That's very different from the Raditz fight.

Hypothetically, if Gohan was outside of the pod, watched Goku and Raditz duking it out, only for Goku to just be all "okay Gohan, it's your turn to fight, you're the only one who can do anything because you're way stronger than I am!" after years of getting his skin saved by an always superior Goku at the last second, I doubt things would have gone down the same as they actually did against Raditz. Because the situations are different.

Plus when was the last time he had a rage boost? On Namek? He was a great deal weaker then. Imagine how must destructive force he would have behind him now. I'm sure he imagined it.

He's been in rage boost mode in base form plenty of times before, but he's never been in rage boost mode as a Super Saiyan. I think that is quite literally a reasonable fear, a reasonable unknown to be suspicious of.

Saiyan arc Gohan and Namek arc Gohan also weren't in a contrived setting where the villain is trying to get Gohan to lose his temper for the sake of entertainment, and is trying to force it. This is all while he's under extreme pressure and reasonably fearful of the unknown depths of his full power. Would they have acted very hesitantly the way Cell Games Gohan does? We don't know if Saiyan/Namek Gohan would have behaved the way Cell Games Gohan does in the Cell Games, because Saiyan/Namek Gohan were never in the Cell Games with all of these factors influencing them.

The main thing here is that there are so many factors here compounding together that were never simultaneously present together at any single moment in the past. There is no precedence for how Gohan would behave given all of these simultaneously compounding factors, because they've never coalesced like this before. If they had before, and he acted just fine then, then there would be a solid, irrefutable case for Gohan being OOC here. But they haven't, so there's not.

I'm just going to opt out of this thread, because I have to keep making the same points and distinctions repeatedly. I've said all that can be said at this point. Take it or leave it.

[ABED]

They weren't at full power, but they were the full extent of the power he was showing everyone.

I don't see what that proves.

Once, with the one hit he threw. It knocked Cell down and made him bleed. Imagine if he had actually tried to fight.

And Cell wouldn't turn up the volume either?

He needed a transformation + rage boost (which isn't what I claim, that's the official stance) because Cell was stronger than him. I don't see why I need to repeat myself, but Gohan had a decisive advantage on the Cell that fought Goku (and the power everyone thought was Cell's full), but his actual strength, which he him from everyone until Gohan went SS2.

Gohan doesn't have an advantage on Cell. They barely fight. You see blood and you jump to the conclusion that it proves Gohan's stronger.

And no, that wasn't the official stance, you inferred that. You see one or two things and you constantly jump to erroneous conclusions. It makes absolutely NO sense for Gohan to turn SS2 if he is already much stronger than Cell.

[RandomGuy96]

Why would anyone care about a like-minded comrade who actually did no wrong while on the opposite team being brutally killed in front of them?

Because it's a piece of machinery that still fully intended to kill Goku.

Are we trying to argue that his distinction is nonexistent or irrelevant? Knowing people are getting killed and seeing someone killed before your very eyes aren't allowed to beget different reactions? Seeing your loved ones getting beat up and seeing them getting killed aren't allowed to beget different reactions? Next you'll bring up "but on Namek..."

I'd think that Gohan would care more about his friends being slowly killed right in front of him by a guy who already killed whole cities rather than a defective appliance he just saw get broken. And yes, I will. On Namek, when Piccolo was being beaten to death, he stepped in. He didn't do anything here.

The latter was preceded by the revelation that he was the strongest fighter around, and Gohan actually thinking about how dangerous his power is.

The former was not.

As has been pointed out, Gohan never once worried about how dangerous his power would be in the past. He has enough control over it not to shatter the planet. So this is completely contrived BS.

Right before Namek and the Androids went sour, everyone wasn't all "okay Gohan, were just handing this shit off to you, there's nothing anyone but you can do. Have fun lol". Shit just happened, and Gohan acted out of instinct. Shit didn't just happen with Cell. They tried forcing it, Gohan over-thought things, and he choked. I can relate 100%.

Instinct? No, he made the knowing decision to train for several years and fight the androids alongside everyone else. He explicitly announced to them that he wanted to fight the bad guys. Yet, at the Cell Games, suddenly he doesn't.

Never, not even once, has his power been shown or implied to be greater than ~Gokuuuuuuuu~. The unheard-of idea that he's truly now stronger than Goku comes literally from nowhere, so an unheard of reaction seems pretty natural.

So having the power to do the job somehow makes him a total wuss when he would always attack even when he wasn't strong enough? What?

Plus when was the last time he had a rage boost? On Namek? He was a great deal weaker then. Imagine how must destructive force he would have behind him now. I'm sure he imagined it.

Again, I'm not talking about getting a rage boost.

He's been in rage boost mode in base form plenty of times before, but he's never been in rage boost mode as a Super Saiyan. I think that is quite literally a reasonable fear, a reasonable unknown to be suspicious of.

Except that's never brought up, implied, or even hinted at, and his father just got through telling him how they're now in a state where SS is like their natural form and has no ill-effects. He can even plainly see that SS no longer affects his or his father's personality. So, again, contrived BS.

I don't see what that proves.

Gohan > Suppressed Cell > Goku. But no one knew it was a suppressed Cell, or at least Gohan would have no way of knowing.

And Cell wouldn't turn up the volume either?

Again, he could have powered up, but no one knew that. He couldn't have simply attacked more, he was already doing that, and it was having no affect on Gohan.

Gohan doesn't have an advantage on Cell. They barely fight. You see blood and you jump to the conclusion that it proves Gohan's stronger.

I'm not jumping to a conclusion, I'm going by what we see in the manga. Gohan is plainly shown on numerous occasions to be both faster than Cell and durable enough that Cell's attacks do absolutely nothing.


Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”

Oh, and Piccolo pretty much says Gohan is stronger than Cell (and everyone else):

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

And no, that wasn't the official stance, you inferred that. You see one or two things and you constantly jump to erroneous conclusions. It makes absolutely NO sense for Gohan to turn SS2 if he is already much stronger than Cell.

No, him getting a rage boost on top of SS2 IS the official stance. Check the Daiz.

I'm only going to say this one more time: he wasn't. But he would have no way of KNOWING that.

[ABED]

That's great writing by Toriyama, having his protagonist be stronger than the villain only to give him a power up. Great drama!

[RandomGuy96]

That's great writing by Toriyama, having his protagonist be stronger than the villain only to give him a power up. Great drama!

Apparently you haven't even been trying to read what I write, since he wasn't.

[ABED]

That's great writing by Toriyama, having his protagonist be stronger than the villain only to give him a power up. Great drama!

Apparently you haven't even been trying to read what I write, since he wasn't.

Wait, which is it, Gohan was stronger than Cell or he wasn't, because it looked like Gohan needed to turn SS2 in order to defeat Cell.

[RandomGuy96]

That's great writing by Toriyama, having his protagonist be stronger than the villain only to give him a power up. Great drama!

Apparently you haven't even been trying to read what I write, since he wasn't.

Wait, which is it, Gohan was stronger than Cell or he wasn't, because it looked like Gohan needed to turn SS2 in order to defeat Cell.

Cell was holding back against Goku and Gohan. He was not using full power. He was using smaller percentage. This power, which everyone should have thought was his full, was far inferior to Gohan.

After Gohan goes SS2, Cell powers up again. This is his full power, and is likely welly beyond what Gohan can manage without the transformation + rage boost.

[ABED]

Cell was holding back against Goku and Gohan. He was not using full power. He was using smaller percentage. This power, which everyone should have thought was his full, was far inferior to Gohan.

After Gohan goes SS2, Cell powers up again. This is his full power, and is likely welly beyond what Gohan can manage without the transformation + rage boost.

No, Gohan and Cell are close to each other at the start of the fight. Gohan needs to turn SS2 in order to defeat Cell. If he didn't, that's just bad writing.

Cell's at his full power when he's fighting Gohan but losing, then he blows up and comes back with more power. He didn't hold back against SS2, he couldn't win, but came back with more power.

When Gohan destroys Cell, I don't know if the would technically constitute a rage boost as much as Gohan using every last bit of energy he can muster when Cell's momentarily distracted.