Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

Continuing with picking on GT train - love SSJ4 and Golden Ozaru, but damn me if it's not completly underdeveloped, not properly explained and not thought-out well at all. We go Golden Ozaru from normal one, ok, not easy to assume/conclude this form is available to all Saiyans who achieved Super form in 'human' mode. But how does it lead to SSJ4? Just "ohh imma go human form now"? We don't see Vegeta doing any power up at all when going from Golden Ozaru to SSJ4, Goku goes as soon as he gets his brains back. So basically you can just jump straight from SSJ1 to SSJ4 as long as you can contain yourself in Oozaru form? That's kinda cheap.

Overall I wish they just named this form Super Ozaru, or Perfect Ozaru or something, keep it in Ozaru line of transformations. Not THAT bothered by it being SSJ4 but the design is obviously heavily different from SSJ1-3 and it's not a natural progression to SSJ1-3 at all, it's an Ozaru progression. And there definitely should've been some pre-requisite to achieving the human-Ozaru hybrid form when going from Golden Ozaru, not just "because he felt like it at the moment". And they probably shouldn't make it stronger than SSJ3 but different, having some advantage over SSJ3 while at the same time having some disatvantage.

It's implied that Goku turns SS4 because he finally regains conscious control over his body, like it's the completion of the transformation.

[Basaku]

It's implied that Goku turns SS4 because he finally regains conscious control over his body, like it's the completion of the transformation.

And since Vegeta already knew how to control himself in Ozaru form, it means he could've gone SSJ4 about 5 minutes after first transforming into SSJ1, if we go by what is "implied". That's the problem, it's not explained enough. Can a Saiyan stay in Golden Ozaru form if he wants? Or will he immediately transform into SSJ4 when he regains control? What triggers SSJ4 transformation? Free will? We see Vegeta regaining control in basic Ozaru form, not Golden, and he then goes Golden->SSJ4 as if it was piece of cake for him.

They could've come up with a dfferent SSJ4-prerequisite. SOmething more original than another power-up or once again regaining control.

[ABED]

It's implied that Goku turns SS4 because he finally regains conscious control over his body, like it's the completion of the transformation.

And since Vegeta already knew how to control himself in Ozaru form, it means he could've gone SSJ4 about 5 minutes after first transforming into SSJ1, if we go by what is "implied". That's the problem, it's not explained enough. Can a Saiyan stay in Golden Ozaru form if he wants? Or will he immediately transform into SSJ4 when he regains control? What triggers SSJ4 transformation? Free will? We see Vegeta regaining control in basic Ozaru form, not Golden, and he then goes Golden->SSJ4 as if it was piece of cake for him.

He still needed a certain amount of Brutz waves, to get past SS3.

[rereboy]

Nearly every season of Buffy has a lot of standalones.

Those are not actual standalones most of the time like I explained. In fact Buffy is well known for being a show that, unlike many shows at the time, actually consistently followed main arcs in every season and in pretty much every episode in a larger story. If you missed one or two or three episodes, depending on the episodes we are talking about, chances are you would be kind of lost.

[Kid Buu]

Nearly every season of Buffy has a lot of standalones.

Those are not actual standalones most of the time like I explained. In fact Buffy is well known for being a show that, unlike many shows at the time, actually consistently followed main arcs in every season and in pretty much every episode in a larger story. If you missed one or two episodes, chances are you will be kind of lost.

I get that, but there are some episodes you can skip completely and not miss anything (except for 40 minutes of good TV).

Like "Go Fish" from Season 2.

[rereboy]

Nearly every season of Buffy has a lot of standalones.

Those are not actual standalones most of the time like I explained. In fact Buffy is well known for being a show that, unlike many shows at the time, actually consistently followed main arcs in every season and in pretty much every episode in a larger story. If you missed one or two episodes, chances are you will be kind of lost.

I get that, but there are some episodes you can skip completely and not miss anything (except for 40 minutes of good TV).

Like "Go Fish" from Season 2.

But I'm not saying that every single episode can't be missed or that there aren't standalone episodes in Buffy. I'm just saying that Buffy ends up being a better example of a series with a continuing story and arcs than a example of a series with standalone episodes.

[Basaku]

He still needed a certain amount of Brutz waves, to get past SS3.

So we end up with lucky coincidence that he never transformed into Ozaru after getting SSJ1. If he did, going with what GT shows, he would be automatically SSJ4 3 mins later. Not sure how I feel about a new uber powerful form that's basically attainable based on lucky circumstances (and in reverse, doesn't appear for a long time thx to convinient lack of ingredients). Similar with SSJG, which by all purpouses should be possible in DBZ episode 1 as long as there was 5 other good Saiyans.

[ABED]

I get that, but there are some episodes you can skip completely and not miss anything (except for 40 minutes of good TV).

Like "Go Fish" from Season 2.

But I'm not saying that every single episode can't be missed or that there aren't standalone episodes in Buffy. I'm just saying that Buffy ends up being a better example of a series with a continuing story and arcs than a example of a series with standalone episodes.[/quote]
It's a great example of a show with standalone episodes because many of them begin and end within the hour, and don't continue the arc of the season. Witch, Amends, the Wish, Lovers Walk, Lie to Me, all don't push forward the main story to my recollection. The point wasn't that Buffy didn't have long arcs, simply that a fair amount of the episodes are stand alones and many of them are great episodes.

He still needed a certain amount of Brutz waves, to get past SS3.

So we end up with lucky coincidence that he never transformed into Ozaru after getting SSJ1. If he did, going with what GT shows, he would be automatically SSJ4 3 mins later. Not sure how I feel about a new uber powerful form that's basically attainable based on lucky circumstances (and in reverse, doesn't appear for a long time thx to convinient lack of ingredients). Similar with SSJG, which by all purpouses should be possible in DBZ episode 1 as long as there was 5 other good Saiyans.

But to get to that point where they had that knowledge, they needed to go through what they did. The actual mechanics of it aren't really that important. For instance, Super Saiyan - they don't explain if you need a certain amount of power to reach it. All we know is Saiyans needed rage.

Think about Super Saiyan for a sec, Goku got to where he got because of the gravity training, but no one thought to use gravity training on Planet Vegeta? It's not like they didn't have the tech to build one. If you think about stuff too long and dissect the minutia, you can find stuff wrong in anything.

[Basaku]

But to get to that point where they had that knowledge, they needed to go through what they did. The actual mechanics of it aren't really that important. For instance, Super Saiyan - they don't explain if you need a certain amount of power to reach it. All we know is Saiyans needed rage.

Think about Super Saiyan for a sec, Goku got to where he got because of the gravity training, but no one thought to use gravity training on Planet Vegeta? It's not like they didn't have the tech to build one. If you think about stuff too long and dissect the minutia, you can find stuff wrong in anything.

With SSJG yes, but not with SSJ4. Goku didn't plan going SSJ4 at all. Pan didn't plan to calm him down in Golden Ozaru form to get him to SSJ4 at all. That transformation was basically just happy coincidence, rather Deus Ex machinaish. SSJG does indeed require specific knowledge.

As for original SSJ1 - it is visually preseented as combination of rage and powering up. It is very clear in its message. SSJ4 is not. If they added just 30 secs of powering-up in Golden Ozaru form to achieve SSJ4 that would instantly make the things clearer (regardless if not very original). Nothing like that happens, both Vegeta and Goku go SSJ4 from Golden Ozaru instantly if they have control over Golden Ozaru form, making that form pointless.

[ABED]

But to get to that point where they had that knowledge, they needed to go through what they did. The actual mechanics of it aren't really that important. For instance, Super Saiyan - they don't explain if you need a certain amount of power to reach it. All we know is Saiyans needed rage.

Think about Super Saiyan for a sec, Goku got to where he got because of the gravity training, but no one thought to use gravity training on Planet Vegeta? It's not like they didn't have the tech to build one. If you think about stuff too long and dissect the minutia, you can find stuff wrong in anything.

With SSJG yes, but not with SSJ4. Goku didn't plan going SSJ4 at all. Pan didn't plan to calm him down in Golden Ozaru form to get him to SSJ4 at all. That transformation was basically just happy coincidence, rather Deus Ex machinaish. SSJG does indeed require specific knowledge.

As for original SSJ1 - it is visually preseented as combination of rage and powering up. It is very clear in its message. SSJ4 is not. If they added just 30 secs of powering-up in Golden Ozaru form to achieve SSJ4 that would instantly make the things clearer (regardless if not very original). Nothing like that happens, both Vegeta and Goku go SSJ4 from Golden Ozaru instantly if they have control over Golden Ozaru form, making that form pointless.

She didn't plan to, but that was her aim. She saw her grandfather rampaging and wanted to help him. It wasn't a coincidence, Old Kaioshin intended it, so NOT deus ex machine.

SS1 was just a rage induced power up, but if it was all just rage, Goku would've gotten it when Kuririn was killed the first time. It's not explained, nor does it need to be force-fed to the audience. They also need their tails to reach Super Saiyan 4.

[Basaku]

She didn't plan to, but that was her aim. She saw her grandfather rampaging and wanted to help him. It wasn't a coincidence, Old Kaioshin intended it, so NOT deus ex machine.

SS1 was just a rage induced power up, but if it was all just rage, Goku would've gotten it when Kuririn was killed the first time. They also need their tails to reach Super Saiyan 4.

Of course it is a coincidence and Deus Ex Machina. Calming Brown Ozaru results in calmed Brown Ozaru, while calming Golden Ozaru apparently results in "Susprise! SSJ4!". Way too convinient and messy, it should've resulted in calmed Golden Ozaru which had further do something else do reach SSJ4.

[ABED]

She didn't plan to, but that was her aim. She saw her grandfather rampaging and wanted to help him. It wasn't a coincidence, Old Kaioshin intended it, so NOT deus ex machine.

SS1 was just a rage induced power up, but if it was all just rage, Goku would've gotten it when Kuririn was killed the first time. They also need their tails to reach Super Saiyan 4.

Of course it is a coincidence and Deus Ex Machina. Calming Brown Ozaru results in calmed Brown Ozaru, while calming Golden Ozaru apparently results in "Susprise! SSJ4!". Way too convinient and messy, it should've resulted in calmed Golden Ozaru which had further do something else do reach SSJ4.

It's not convenient, that was Old Kaioshin's goal, the only problem is he didn't have enough time to train Goku, so the results were messy.

You didn't watch the series close enough, clearly. In any case, I've said my piece.

[Basaku]

It's not convenient, that was Old Kaioshin's goal, the only problem is he didn't have enough time to train Goku, so the results were messy.

You didn't watch the series close enough, clearly. In any case, I've said my piece.

You're just making up stuff at this point, Old Kai doesn't even know that getting to SSJ4 requires more than just having an uncut/regrown tail. I suggest you watch the series more closely It's is just convienience that Goku looks at the Earth long enough (and that Earth is visibile at that moment to provide the waves) and that Pan is around to calm him down with cute picture, none of this was planned by old Kai, even if there was more training nothing would ever happen had Goku not looked at reflecting celestial body long enough. Lucky coincidence.

And let's not even get into the discussion how convinient it is that old Kai doesn't bother to tell the gang about SSJ4 in Boo arc for example

[ABED]

It's not convenient, that was Old Kaioshin's goal, the only problem is he didn't have enough time to train Goku, so the results were messy.

You didn't watch the series close enough, clearly. In any case, I've said my piece.

You're just making up stuff at this point, Old Kai doesn't even know that getting to SSJ4 requires more than just having an uncut/regrown tail. I suggest you watch the series more closely It's is just convienience that Goku looks at the Earth long enough (and that Earth is visibile at that moment to provide the waves) and that Pan is around to calm him down with cute picture, none of this was planned by old Kai, even if there was more training nothing would ever happen had Goku not looked at reflecting celestial body long enough. Lucky coincidence.

And let's not even get into the discussion how convinient it is that old Kai doesn't bother to tell the gang about SSJ4 in Boo arc for example

I'm not making stuff up, he had Goku's tail pulled out for a purpose. He may not have known the steps but he knew where he was going. When you're in a bind, plans go out the window, and I believe he knew Pan was there before Goku left.

You could just as easily say Goku's first SS transformation was pure luck. It was luck that he wasn't picked off first and that he did transform to begin with.

The yawn is rather obnoxious. Maybe Kaioshin didn't know about SS4 yet, he just got out of the sword. That's not any more convenient than Goku happening to have SS3 in his back pocket or he and Vegeta defusing when inside Buu.

[TheGmGoken]

It was luck that he wasn't picked off first and that he did transform to begin with.

Goku was picked off first Piccolo saved him

[ABED]

It was luck that he wasn't picked off first and that he did transform to begin with.

Goku was picked off first Piccolo saved him

Not in the manga.

[TheGmGoken]

It was luck that he wasn't picked off first and that he did transform to begin with.

Goku was picked off first Piccolo saved him

Not in the manga.

Maybe its harder to notice since its panel by panel and not animated but Piccolo did same thing in manga.

[dbgtFO]

Maybe its harder to notice since its panel by panel and not animated but Piccolo did same thing in manga.

Spoiler:

There's no way that's what Toriyama was going for.

Piccolo was instantly blasted and then fell over. There is no panel showing Piccolo trying to react before the blast connected and if that's what Toriyama was really going for, he made it utterly unclear to the reader.
And Toriyama doesn't usually make plot points that incomprehensible.

[TheGmGoken]

Maybe its harder to notice since its panel by panel and not animated but Piccolo did same thing in manga.

Spoiler:

There's no way that's what Toriyama was going for.

Piccolo was instantly blasted and then fell over. There is no panel showing Piccolo trying to react before the blast connected and if that's what Toriyama was really going for, he made it utterly unclear to the reader.
And Toriyama doesn't usually make plot points that incomprehensible.

Wow I misunderstand that a lot LOL

[ErikB]

If it helps, here's the pages from my digital copy of the Viz manga (I think this is OK to post, right? It's just two pages after all. Let me know if I should remove it):


The way it happens in the anime, it looks like they animated 2 of the panels in reverse order. But yeah, in the manga, it really doesn't look like Piccolo was trying to shield Goku from the blast. Piccolo gets blasted and then falls towards the other heroes and finally falls to the ground...although his placement between these panels is questionable but that may or may not be relevant.