Why is Toei Animation so cheap?

[samuraix123]

That's gotta be a nightmare to animate something like that though. lol listening to a word then try to draw it out a full sentence must take forever to get done lol

[Ajay]

It's not too bad, I imagine. They're really drawing specific lip movements; it's more just knowing how many seconds the sentence will take to say and animating accordingly. After all, they're animating to a time limit.

[ErikB]

That's gotta be a nightmare to animate something like that though. lol listening to a word then try to draw it out a full sentence must take forever to get done lol

Ehh, it's not the worst thing ever. It's tedious and getting the timing just right can be a pain sometimes (generally advisable to hit the right mouth shapes 2 frames prior to the respective sound), but it doesn't take that long nor is it all that difficult. Plus it's very common to get recordings where the actor is speaking much too fast to animate literally ever sound, so we 'cheat' by using/drawing mouth shapes that effectively combine those sounds.
The lip-sync itself is typically the last thing that gets animated too; the main focus being on the body acting to sell the character's delivery of the line.

Since it's come up, I am a little curious why in anime the animation gets done prior to the voice recording (and also if that's universally true). Barring the occasional last-minute change, we'd never do that over here because it would just limit the actors' performances. Plus having the recording helps the animators animate the characters because we can hear all the accents to the delivery.

[Vegard Aune]

of course i would love, if every anime looked as great as Madoka Magica https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVi_fs2oz3E i realise, it must be very expensive, to make such well drawn and animated scene, like Homura vs Mami

Well, y'know, that's a bit of an unfair comparison seeing how that's from a movie and all... Then again the TV-series also looked on the whole better than most of what Toei puts out. Though I wouldn't necessarily hold Madoka as an example of outstanding art or animation, as, especially in the series, there were a lot of off-model shots or moments where they clearly skimped on the animation. (The best example probably being in the TV-version of episode 11, where at one point during the big fight-scene they seem to have thrown in an unfinished pencil-sketch for no apparent reason... this was corrected in the BluRays though.) I do however think that it has one thing over most of what Toei puts out these days; The animation-quality is fairly consistent. Like, yeah, there are a few awkward shots here and there, but it's like, Toei will often put out episodes that look either mediocre or downright bad for the most part, only to throw in one single scene that looks so incomparably much better than the rest of it that it's just ridiculous. Like, the "Hero"-sequence in Battle of Gods looks like something out of an entirely different movie from the rest of the film, for goodess' sake! By comparison, while that Homura/Mami fight is more detailed and complex than most of the rest of the movie, it's not so much better than the rest of it that it actually distracts. I suppose it just comes down to them just being smarter with how they actually spent their money, cutting corners where they could do so without it being distracting, and still keeping the more demading scenes restrained enough that it wasn't jarring. Yes, I just praised Shaft for not having Shida-level animation-quality.

[dan2026]

If you want a current long running series with consistently good animation check out Hunter x Hunter (2011)
It puts most manga adaptions to shame.

[B]

If you want a current long running series with consistently good animation check out Hunter x Hunter (2011)
It puts most manga adaptions to shame.

Of course, you have to take in mind it had 300+ chapters ready to adapt. That's like if the Dragon Ball anime had started in the middle of the Freeza arc.

[rereboy]

If you want a current long running series with consistently good animation check out Hunter x Hunter (2011)
It puts most manga adaptions to shame.

Of course, you have to take in mind it had 300+ chapters ready to adapt. That's like if the Dragon Ball anime had started in the middle of the Freeza arc.

Dragon Ball is a much bigger franchise than Hunter x Hunter with much more international impact, with an original anime that ended 20 years ago and all chapters already done. And Toei decided to do Kai instead of a real remake with good quality.

[Basaku]

Dragon Ball is a much bigger franchise than Hunter x Hunter with much more international impact, with an original anime that ended 20 years ago and all chapters already done. And Toei decided to do Kai instead of a real remake with good quality.

But the first Hunter anime was short. Not much episodes to 'remake' even when compared to filler-less DBZ

[rereboy]

But the first Hunter anime was short. Not much episodes to 'remake' even when compared to filler-less DBZ

The fact that Hunter x Hunter had material that hadn't been adapted yet is more than compensated by the fact that DB has a much bigger market and the fact that the original anime is older than the first anime of Hunter x Hunter. And if they want to make a remake, then make an actual remake, not a joke.

Also, 65 episodes is not that short. The new anime of Hunter x Hunter, that is already reaching the final stretch of the available chapters, is "only" about the double of that number so far and spent the better first half of that number retelling what had already appeared in the original.

[Basaku]

And if they want to make a remake, then make an actual remake, not a joke.

I guess. But perhaps this will leave Toei no choice but focus on original DB content. They already started with BOG. IF we get more movie sequels, or even brand new anime continuation of some sort then I wouldn't complain about lack of true DBZ remake. As much as I'm excited for new Sailor Moon anime, it IS going to be yet another retelling of the same stories we've known for 20 years and any possibility of getting new SM stories/continuation has been delayed because of this for at least a decade when production and exploting of the new anime will end. Hunter is in similar position, the manga is still going on and the new anime is adapting stories fans already knew for years.

[rereboy]

IMO, a good quality remake of the anime would be more interesting since the last few original works weren't that interesting and the anime we have doesn't compare to the manga.

[Basaku]

IMO, a good quality remake of the anime would be more interesting since the last few original works weren't that interesting and the anime we have doesn't compare to the manga.

Well, it doesn't help that the last few original works are all over the place, Toei & AT are like "200 years into future here, new Bardock story there, now new EOZ stuff, now a remake of 90s OVA, now gimmick game for modern kids, now Goku's new origins, not back to remastered DBZ" etc. And there are all pretty much 1-shots so far. There's no coherent vision for the brand expansion at the moment and hard to get into any of these particular projects very deep because they're quickly done and the next thing is something completly different.

And Toriyama himself seems to go back and forth between "I'm done! I'm retiring! Someone draw my work for me!" and "Hmm I'm kinda get a bit of itch to do some little new DB stuff again, and it seems like DB has really become legendary dayum!".

[GarrettCRW]

Part of Toei's problem is that the outsourcing market to Japan has dried up, which has cost the studio a key training ground for talent. In the '80s and even into the '90s, Toei was a top studio to work with for American studios looking to outsource. Their backgrounds were lavish, and unless they were unfairly rushed (see: the first season of The Transformers, which went from script to screen in about 4-5 months), the animation looked good and was generally on-model. Better yet, Toei was famous for adding extra bits of business, much of which was appreciated by the American studios (a key exception being the notorious "Rio kicks a plant" bit in one episode of Jem after he brutally rips into Kimber for being deceptive, and is called on it by Jerrica).

The other problem seems to be rooted in the animation (and also video game) industry in Japan, as the reliance on certain tropes and storytelling techniques have become excessively ingrained. As the rest of the world gets more and more "trope aware" and tries to avoid using a lot of the same storytelling techniques as a crutch, Japanese productions seem content to wallow in their popular tropes in a fashion that almost makes US TV executives look creative.

[JulieYBM]

of course i would love, if every anime looked as great as Madoka Magica https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVi_fs2oz3E i realise, it must be very expensive, to make such well drawn and animated scene, like Homura vs Mami

Well, y'know, that's a bit of an unfair comparison seeing how that's from a movie and all... Then again the TV-series also looked on the whole better than most of what Toei puts out. Though I wouldn't necessarily hold Madoka as an example of outstanding art or animation, as, especially in the series, there were a lot of off-model shots or moments where they clearly skimped on the animation. (The best example probably being in the TV-version of episode 11, where at one point during the big fight-scene they seem to have thrown in an unfinished pencil-sketch for no apparent reason... this was corrected in the BluRays though.) I do however think that it has one thing over most of what Toei puts out these days; The animation-quality is fairly consistent. Like, yeah, there are a few awkward shots here and there, but it's like, Toei will often put out episodes that look either mediocre or downright bad for the most part, only to throw in one single scene that looks so incomparably much better than the rest of it that it's just ridiculous. Like, the "Hero"-sequence in Battle of Gods looks like something out of an entirely different movie from the rest of the film, for goodess' sake! By comparison, while that Homura/Mami fight is more detailed and complex than most of the rest of the movie, it's not so much better than the rest of it that it actually distracts. I suppose it just comes down to them just being smarter with how they actually spent their money, cutting corners where they could do so without it being distracting, and still keeping the more demading scenes restrained enough that it wasn't jarring. Yes, I just praised Shaft for not having Shida-level animation-quality.

I don't see why we should throw Shida under the bus for being the only talented key animator to work on the fights. Oonishi Ryou's cuts during the Super Saiyan God transformation ritual look nothing like the rest of the movie. The waves and auras are gorgeous, but the line thickness is a clear departure from any other part of the movie. The fact that the movie was given to Hosoda Masahiro should have been our first indication that it was going to be poorly done, though.

When it comes to animated battle films nobody has yet to top Bleach: Jigoku Hen and Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Milos no Sei-naru Hoshi. What Tanaka Hironori and Kurita Shin'ichi did in the former is mind-blowing. Kameda Yoshimichi and the flash animators took the battles of the latter up to eleven. If Nagamine Tatsuya hadn't been busy with One Piece Film Z we probably would have had battles (and staff) to match Dragon Ball: Ultimate Blast's Opening.

[Basaku]

Part of Toei's problem is that the outsourcing market to Japan has dried up, which has cost the studio a key training ground for talent. In the '80s and even into the '90s, Toei was a top studio to work with for American studios looking to outsource. Their backgrounds were lavish, and unless they were unfairly rushed (see: the first season of The Transformers, which went from script to screen in about 4-5 months), the animation looked good and was generally on-model. Better yet, Toei was famous for adding extra bits of business, much of which was appreciated by the American studios (a key exception being the notorious "Rio kicks a plant" bit in one episode of Jem after he brutally rips into Kimber for being deceptive, and is called on it by Jerrica).

The other problem seems to be rooted in the animation (and also video game) industry in Japan, as the reliance on certain tropes and storytelling techniques have become excessively ingrained. As the rest of the world gets more and more "trope aware" and tries to avoid using a lot of the same storytelling techniques as a crutch, Japanese productions seem content to wallow in their popular tropes in a fashion that almost makes US TV executives look creative.

True, but then again you could argue that technology jump from the 80s/90s should've more than made up for loss of 'training ground' projects. I also just reminded myself of G1 Transformers animation horrors lol. I still love the show

[Vegard Aune]

I don't see why we should throw Shida under the bus for being the only talented key animator to work on the fights. Oonishi Ryou's cuts during the Super Saiyan God transformation ritual look nothing like the rest of the movie. The waves and auras are gorgeous, but the line thickness is a clear departure from any other part of the movie.

Well, here's the thing: That bit doesn't stand out to me as being glaringly, obviously, "there is absolutely no way anyone would not notice the difference"-level different animation-quality from the rest of the movie. You say it's nothing like the rest of the film, but to a more untrained eye such as myself, it doesn't look notably different. Like, I certainly wouldn't be able to pinpoint at which point Oonishi's cuts begin and end, as they still look close enough to the rest of the movie to me that it's not really distracting. On the other hand, Shida's cuts are so incomparably much better than the rest of the movie that it's pretty much impossible not to notice... Though I will say there was a jarring shift in the other direction shortly before it too. Which is the section where Goku and Beers are briefly animated using CGI models. Now maybe this is just because CGI-people is one of the biggest pet-peeves of mine, but that shot was the clear lowest point in the movie for me, animation-wise. And again, I'm not approaching this from the perspective of someone who wants high quality animation, but just from someone who wants to be able to sit down and watch a movie all the way through without going "Holy shit did the animation-quality just skyrocket" or "That is a badly rendered CGI Goku. Are you kidding me." I mean, I do appreciate good animation as well, but I would honestly rather have a full movie that looks consistently "good", as opposed to a movie that looks mediocre for 98% of its runtime and has one minute of absolutely outstanding animation that makes the rest of the movie look like it was done using crayon-drawings at 1fps by comparison.

Of course it seems we also have different views on what actually counts as good animation though, as I see you mentioned the FMA:Brotherhood movie as an outstanding example... and I quite frankly found the entire visual style of that movie to be rather ugly. I also thought that the story was completely ridiculous and that the film's climax felt like something out of DBZ and so it completely failed to me as a FMA-movie, but that's another issue all together.