Did Goku Need More Development?

[garnetjester]

I agree that if I had to pick a dad I'd go with Goku. He might be irresponsible (understatement of the year!) but he genuinely cares about his sons and shows affection towards them. Vegeta however, might be full of undying love for his wife and son but they're pretty close to never even knowing which is pretty awful. And even if Goku doesn't "get" the concept of family, I think he really cares about his, in his own flawed simplistic Goku way, but still.

[superfunk]

Automatically disqualifies him from being a good father? Not according to Toriyama and the DB universe it doesn't, in a fictional story that is all that counts, and even if he is a bad parent, Goku is worse.

Yeah, this is a fictional universe where you can pile up a mountain of dead bodies that would make Mao say, "that's extreme!"

What would ever lead you to say Vegeta's better? What actions specifically on his part scream that to be the case? He doesn't hang around Trunks, and he punches him out of frustration. Goku isn't always around, but he was around for the first years of Gohan's life, and the 3 or 4 years after he got back from Namek. It's clear that he loves his son, and shows affection for him. He never punched Gohan out of frustration. The one time he did hit him was to protect him from rushing to his death. When he comes back to life, the first thing he does is embrace the son he didn't know he had. And he comes back to life the next day and spends the next couple years with his family. Yes, he flies off with Uub, but he can teleport. Tell me what Vegeta has over him?

Sometimes simple characters are the best.

Very true. I love Community, clearly, and Abed doesn't really change, but he's the best character on the show.

There is evidence to suggest that Goku cares more about kulilin than his family, it certainly seems like it. In that scene where he saves dende and mr.satan instead of his sons, he literally looks at his sons first and decides to save dende and satan. There is no mention later that he maybe saved dende because of his healing powers. Vegeta is pissed that his son died, Goku shows no emotion and in the anime just gives a goofy grin to vegeta berating him for choosing them over their sons. Yeah vegeta punched trunks while training, he also was sorry for it and took him to the amusement park. What makes you say he doesn't hang around trunks? we don't see enough of their private lives for you to make that claim, he seems to be around him allot in the buu saga. This compared to Goku's record of "being around" is superb. There is another Toriyama interview on this site where Akira says something along the lines of goku being an unfit parent, sorry I don't know which one, there are so many interviews now. This along with the other interview in which Toriyama talks about Goku and his family would suggest that the creator himself thinks Vegeta is a better father(yeah, it is not expressly said). Goku "loves" his family while Vegeta loves his family.

[garnetjester]

That's not true. In the scene after Goku picks up Satan and Dende he thinks he can make it back to his sons, and then he realizes he won't even have time to do the shunkan ido which is when Kibitoshin helps him. In the manga right after the explosion of Earth Goku looks upset that the Earth blew up with Gohan and co, and when Vegeta berates him he seems pretty upset about it too.

[superfunk]

I Know that. When he says there is no time left, doesn't change the fact that he looks at his sons first and then decides to save Dende and Satan first, for seemingly no practical reason. Just another example of Goku putting almost anyone before his family.

[Gonstead]

I Know that. When he says there is no time left, doesn't change the fact that he looks at his sons first and then decides to save Dende and Satan first, for seemingly no practical reason. Just another example of Goku putting almost anyone before his family.

garnetjester just explained the reason. Dende and Satan were closer, so naturally they would be picked up first before attempting to try and grab their sons and Piccolo. Goku tried to save everyone that he could, but just did not have enough time to do so.

Should we now start criticizing Goku for not saving Tien and Chaozu? Pretty sure they never made it out alive either.

[superfunk]

In the anime his sons are closer, in the manga you can't see who's closer.

[Rukura]

In response to the original post, and maybe this has already been pointed out (but is usually still the most accurate answer), Dragon Ball Z fans that want more Goku character development already missed 153 episodes of it.

[ABED]

What sort of development are people looking for from Goku?

[B]

Goku was fully developed when we met him and his job was to influence and inflict growth out of the tertiary cast. It wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world for Goku to have some inner turmoil, but ultimately that's not who he was and he plays his role to great effect.

[Marco Polo]

What sort of development are people looking for from Goku?

I disagree with penguintruth. Character development doesn't mean it has to be complex. Goku had plenty of development pre-Saiyan Saga yet that didn't particularly make him a complex character. Character development is just growth, and there's always room to grow as a fighter. I mean, isn't that the whole point of a shonen protagonist?

Goku is a guy that just wants to fight stronger and stronger opponents. When he loses to someone, all he has to do is find a way to get stronger and then he'll defeat the opponent. How does he find that way? Not through boring, mindless training. He does it through character development! For example:

-When we learned why he chose to master Full-Power SSJ instead of Ascended SSJ, that was character development.
-When he had to change plans after Piccolo made him realize Gohan doesn't like fighting, that was character development, as someone said above.
-When we saw newfound excitement in him when he met Uub because training with Goten just doesn't cut it anymore, that was character development.
-When he tried to find a way to beat Birus (and learned to stay SSJ God even after the spell had worn off), that was character development.

Notice how, in three of these examples, he grew through the actions of others. Other people change thanks to him, but the reverse is also true.

On the other hand, Goku didn't grow at all in the Buu Saga (aside from the random wish for Buu to reincarnate, at the very last end) -- he was already stronger than Fat Buu, and he messed up big time.

So I guess my point is that character development doesn't have to imply complexity, just growth as a fighter in the case of Goku. There was plenty of that pre-Saiyan Saga, but not as much in DBZ, and practically none in the Buu Saga.

[ABED]

-When we learned why he chose to master Full-Power SSJ instead of Ascended SSJ, that was character development.
-When he had to change plans after Piccolo made him realize Gohan doesn't like fighting, that was character development, as someone said above.
-When we saw newfound excitement in him when he met Uub because training with Goten just doesn't cut it anymore, that was character development.
-When he tried to find a way to beat Birus (and learned to stay SSJ God even after the spell had worn off), that was character development.

Is that really character development?

[TheGmGoken]

What sort of development are people looking for from Goku?

I disagree with penguintruth. Character development doesn't mean it has to be complex. Goku had plenty of development pre-Saiyan Saga yet that didn't particularly make him a complex character. Character development is just growth, and there's always room to grow as a fighter. I mean, isn't that the whole point of a shonen protagonist?

Goku is a guy that just wants to fight stronger and stronger opponents. When he loses to someone, all he has to do is find a way to get stronger and then he'll defeat the opponent. How does he find that way? Not through boring, mindless training. He does it through character development! For example:

-When we learned why he chose to master Full-Power SSJ instead of Ascended SSJ, that was character development.
-When he had to change plans after Piccolo made him realize Gohan doesn't like fighting, that was character development, as someone said above.
-When we saw newfound excitement in him when he met Uub because training with Goten just doesn't cut it anymore, that was character development.
-When he tried to find a way to beat Birus (and learned to stay SSJ God even after the spell had worn off), that was character development.

Notice how, in three of these examples, he grew through the actions of others. Other people change thanks to him, but the reverse is also true.

On the other hand, Goku didn't grow at all in the Buu Saga (aside from the random wish for Buu to reincarnate, at the very last end) -- he was already stronger than Fat Buu, and he messed up big time.

So I guess my point is that character development doesn't have to imply complexity, just growth as a fighter in the case of Goku. There was plenty of that pre-Saiyan Saga, but not as much in DBZ, and practically none in the Buu Saga.

Freeza arc? Cell arc? I mean by time Boo arc began we didn't need ANYMORE development for Goku. He seen and fought it all by now. Why he needs more. Not every character need development every single arc.

[ABED]

The person that needed development the most was Gohan in the Cell arc. If he's gonna take Goku's mantle, he should've been at the forefront of the story more, and by the end, I would've preferred it if his father didn't have to convince him not to throw in the towel against Cell.

[MediaFanGirl93]

Well, this reminds me of a Tumblr post I made with me asking the others if they felt that Goku was a flat character. I don't really think he's flat, but I think Goku should have developed a lot more in the...say..Cell Arc, along with Gohan (even though I dislike how fans rag on him for his OOC behavior there).

[ABED]

Well, this reminds me of a Tumblr post I made with me asking the others if they felt that Goku was a flat character. I don't really think he's flat, but I think Goku should have developed a lot more in the...say..Cell Arc, along with Gohan (even though I dislike how fans rag on him for his OOC behavior there).

It's Gohan's passivity that bothers me more, it's not a good trait in a main hero.

[TheGmGoken]

Well, this reminds me of a Tumblr post I made with me asking the others if they felt that Goku was a flat character. I don't really think he's flat, but I think Goku should have developed a lot more in the...say..Cell Arc, along with Gohan (even though I dislike how fans rag on him for his OOC behavior there).

It's Gohan's passivity that bothers me more, it's not a good trait in a main hero.

Please don't turn this to a Gohan ooc topic. Anyways Goku did develop in the Cell arc @MediaFanGirl

[MediaFanGirl93]

Well, this reminds me of a Tumblr post I made with me asking the others if they felt that Goku was a flat character. I don't really think he's flat, but I think Goku should have developed a lot more in the...say..Cell Arc, along with Gohan (even though I dislike how fans rag on him for his OOC behavior there).

It's Gohan's passivity that bothers me more, it's not a good trait in a main hero.

With Gohan, it was more of him having self-esteem issues. Even Goku had to push him into believing himself to beat Cell in the final showdown.

Please don't turn this to a Gohan ooc topic. Anyways Goku did develop in the Cell arc @MediaFanGirl

Okay, I will try not to. Also, how do you think Goku developed.?

[TheGmGoken]

Simple. He becomes similar to Muten Roshi during Ten Arc. He becomes a mentor to Gohan and pass the torch. Even in Boo arc he wants the New Generation to take over. Sounds familiar don't it.

[RandomGuy96]

Automatically disqualifies him from being a good father? Not according to Toriyama and the DB universe it doesn't, in a fictional story that is all that counts, and even if he is a bad parent, Goku is worse.

Yeah, this is a fictional universe where you can pile up a mountain of dead bodies that would make Mao say, "that's extreme!"

What would ever lead you to say Vegeta's better? What actions specifically on his part scream that to be the case? He doesn't hang around Trunks, and he punches him out of frustration. Goku isn't always around, but he was around for the first years of Gohan's life, and the 3 or 4 years after he got back from Namek. It's clear that he loves his son, and shows affection for him. He never punched Gohan out of frustration. The one time he did hit him was to protect him from rushing to his death. When he comes back to life, the first thing he does is embrace the son he didn't know he had. And he comes back to life the next day and spends the next couple years with his family. Yes, he flies off with Uub, but he can teleport. Tell me what Vegeta has over him?

Sometimes simple characters are the best.

Very true. I love Community, clearly, and Abed doesn't really change, but he's the best character on the show.

There is evidence to suggest that Goku cares more about kulilin than his family, it certainly seems like it. In that scene where he saves dende and mr.satan instead of his sons, he literally looks at his sons first and decides to save dende and satan. There is no mention later that he maybe saved dende because of his healing powers. Vegeta is pissed that his son died, Goku shows no emotion and in the anime just gives a goofy grin to vegeta berating him for choosing them over their sons. Yeah vegeta punched trunks while training, he also was sorry for it and took him to the amusement park. What makes you say he doesn't hang around trunks? we don't see enough of their private lives for you to make that claim, he seems to be around him allot in the buu saga. This compared to Goku's record of "being around" is superb. There is another Toriyama interview on this site where Akira says something along the lines of goku being an unfit parent, sorry I don't know which one, there are so many interviews now. This along with the other interview in which Toriyama talks about Goku and his family would suggest that the creator himself thinks Vegeta is a better father(yeah, it is not expressly said). Goku "loves" his family while Vegeta loves his family.

Toriyama on Goku's parenting (or lack thereof):

Goku isn’t interested in child-rearing, probably. He’s completely unqualified to be a father. (laughs) He doesn’t even have a job. Goku wants nothing other than to get stronger, and it feels like he doesn’t have any other instincts. So he shows absolutely no interest in things he’s not interested in. I’d bet he wouldn’t have had any interest in marriage, eithe

Toriyama on Vegeta's family life:

Q: Since Saiyans are supposed to have no affection for family or friends, does this actually make Vegeta, who holds his family and wife dear, an even stranger (kinder) Saiyan than Goku?

A: Vegeta, whose pride had been deeply wounded, sought help from Bulma, and little by little, his ruthless personality changed. Nowadays, you certainly might be able to say that On the other hand, Goku might not have a sense of family members like Gohan and Chi-Chi except as one of his companions.

It seems that he really is saying Vegeta is a better father than Goku.

[garnetjester]

Sure, I don't really understand why Vegeta has become the "real good guy" nowadays though... While I agree that Goku isn't dad of the year, I don't think he's as terrible as most people say, I do think he cared for his children a lot, maybe not in a truly paternal way, since per Toriyama's words he doesn't even know what that is (which is ironic considering his parents were one of the very few loving saiyan families ever according to Minus), but in any case, he loves them, tries to protect them and isn't an emotionally distant jackass. I mean, he plays with them, hugs them etc. Vegeta, on the other hand, is apparently full of feelings of love and adoration for his family but he won't ever say so because of his pride or whatever, so I think it's still a matter of preference really. Goku isn't dying of love for his family or anything close to it, but he does care about them and it shows, and then there's Vegeta who apparently loves them very much but they might as well never now for all the emotions he displays.

As for Vegeta not being able to be a good dad, being a mass murderer doesn't necessarily mean he has to be a horrible father. Hell, even in real life I've heard of horrible criminals who love their families above anything else (Vegeta is a reformed murderer though, for what it's worth)