Did FUNImation irrepairably cripple the fandom in the US?

[MarCas92]

Let me start off with some background. I grew up watching the Latino Dub in Mexico. When I turned 10 and moved to the US I started watching the show in English. Later when I turned 13/14 I sought out and watched the entire series in Japanese. I love the original version and it is by far the best. The English version I loved and still do. But let's face it, it's totally removed from the original. The music doesn't fit the show, the voices don't fit the characters most of the time and the dialogue changes are really, really bad up until Kai. But even though I think it's awful, I still enjoy it on a nostalgic level and it's always fun watching a different version of a show.

Now, with FUNImations dub being so far removed from the original anime people grew up with a different vision of what Dragon Ball is supposed to be. Since this show is such a large part of peoples childhoods it would make sense for people to get passionate about it. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't channel that passion into respectful argument and debate and "I like the English Dub, it's what I grew up with so I feel the voices and music fit better. But I have no qualms with the original or its fans" turns into "LOL! F*ckin weeaboo! The Japanese version sucks! Goku sounds like a girl and the music doesn't fit an action show!" I wonder this because there is no such divide or aggressiveness between fans of the original and their countries dub in Mexico. Would such a strong divide exist if FUNI had done a better job dubbing the show? Will the fan base ever be more united?

Oh yeah. I almost forgot. KRILLIN'S IN DA HOUSE!

[Fionordequester]

Cripple? Well, that depends on how you define it I guess. If you mean they "crippled" it by giving us a version that FUNI fans such as me like better than even Kai, then sure I guess. If you mean "cripple", as in dividing the fandom? Then I think that's debatable. Sure, there are a lot of arguments, but some of those arguments are really interesting and constructive, and, in my opinion, gave us DBZ fans a lot more to talk about. I find all the things that went down with the U.S. and DBZ to be really interesting, knowing WHY things were the way they were, how everyone got involved, and discussing whether those changes were good, and etc., etc. ..

Plus, if anything, I think the different take on DBZ actually HELPED the show, because now if we don't like one version, we can switch to the other. For example, we've got at least two whole soundtracks in the Team Faulconer and Westwood soundtracks that we wouldn't have otherwise had with a faithful dub. So suppose we have our Orange Bricks. If we don't like Kikuchi? We have Team Faulconer. And if we don't like Faulconer? We have Kikuchi! And if you don't like Kai, you have the old dub. And if you don't like the old dub? Than you have Kai! We have so many options (each with their own pros and cons) in how we want to watch it!! Simple, right?

Now, if you mean "cripple" as in we all have a completely inaccurate picture of what the show is like? Then I'd say "no" (though we certainly do have an inaccurate picture of what the Frieza and Saiyan Saga's were like). If you mean, "did it ruin the show the show so thoroughly that it actually caused it to fail in the U.S., like what 4Kids did to One Piece"? Then DEFINITELY no!

[dario03]

I don't think the script accuracy even has much to do with it. I think it all comes down to the music. People that don't watch the original version or discuss DB online might not even know about the script changes or notice them when first watching in Japanese but they would definitely notice the music (and Goku's voice). Which is probably why there isn't as big of a gap in other versions that used the original music. However I wouldn't be surprised if people still put down the Japanese version or any other version compared to their version for whatever reason (music and preferring dub over sub probably being a big part of it).

[ABED]

But who watches the show for the music? I don't think the Japanese music would've deterred anyone if that had been the soundtrack.

No, I don't think the show was hurt financially (or helped for that matter) by the drastic changes because I think the universal aspect of the show comes across pretty much no matter what you do to it. If really bad, inexperienced voice acting isn't going to cripple the fandom, nothing will.

[dario03]

If the Japanese music had been in the Funi version originally, then no I don't think it would of deterred anyone and it would of been what they were used to. A lot of people like what they are used to or they simply like Faulconer's music so the biggest reasons I see for people liking the Funi version over the Japanese version is it is in English so no need for subtitles, and the music. Don't see to many people saying they prefer the script changes.

[dbboxkaifan]

But who watches the show for the music?

People who appreciate quality music made for the series.

A great example is Dragon Ball Kai with the replacement Kikuchi score that is very limited, repetitive and annoying then there's the Majin Boo arc which has a VGM score with now more variety but misplaced BGMs all over the place.

Watching Dragon Ball Kai like this is distracting for me, at least with the Kikuchi issue that can be solved since Yamamoto composed for almost all episodes (minus a few) but not Majin Boo arc.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The fanbase would never have been completely united, even if FUNimation had done a loyal dub. There is no such thing as a universally-loved dub, no matter how good it is.

I've seen a decent amount of people who prefer the dub over the sub and can talk about it in a civilized manner. If anything, the lack of respectful dialogue and "F*** you, Weaboo"-stuff that MarCas92 mentioned is a reflection of the rudeness of the specific people saying that. People whose rudeness was the result of their own free will. It's not like FUNimation ever encouraged any dialogue like that.

Although, I have to come clean here and admit that converting people's opinion about which version of the Dragon Ball animes they prefer is not only something that I haven't cared about, but something I've avoided doing. I just wouldn't get the point of that. I mean, sure, through civilized discussion I'll occasionally point out some changes, but never in a, "therefore, you should like the original version better" tone or context. My thought is, people are allowed to like what they want to like, and "bridging the divide"--which, as I said earlier, would have existed with or without FUNimation's improper treatment of the dub--wouldn't amount to any tremendously positive change one way or the other.

I mean, we all got along fine, didn't we? We here at Kanzenshuu have the original Japanese version available to us, we have the Kai dub available to us, and we've been able to talk about all of this in a civilized manner. Life goes on. I guess I personally just don't see "the divide" as much of a problem.

[MugiMikey]

Yeah, I get a lot of hostile people on my case when I mention I like the Japanese version and/or the Kai dub more than the original FUNi Z dub. I was once accused of being a "noob" because of it, despite being a huge fan since 1999.

I don't mind if people have their preferences, but it really starts to irritate me when people get delusional and say Japan hates the original version and strongly prefers the FUNi dub with the Faulconer score. I can't possibly recall how many times I've seen that on YouTube.

[Ajay]

If the dub was accurate and the characters were voiced by people who actually sound similar to their Japanese counterparts like many other dubs attempt to do, we'd be absolutely fine. It'd be no different to any other anime.

The Evangelion community doesn't love the dub but they don't actively dislike it. The dub lovers show zero resentment towards the original language and I've yet to see any weaboo comments. That's because the dub is mostly accurate and the characters are actually voiced by people who understand what they're playing. You see the same thing with Cowboy Bebop fans too. Good dub = less differences = less disconnect in a fandom.

This level of disconnect tends occurs the most when a show airs with an inaccurate dub and gains a large following through that dub. You get used to something and there's an instant knee-jerk reaction when you hear something different. Very few people take the time to actually think clearly about what they're hearing. Heck, as someone who's exclusively watched Dragon Ball in Japanese for some time now, I find myself cringing when I hear Kai's dub! I actually like Kai's dub, it's just very hard for your brain to process that kinda change.

When something's been ingrained in you for so long, it's really tough to be objective about something incongruous to your norm.

So yeah, FUNi fucked up the community without a shadow of a doubt. They created a version so different that the knee jerk reaction is intense beyond anything I've ever seen before. With a show like Dragon Ball, that attracts many casual, younger, and nostalgic viewers, you're not exactly in a community that takes any interest in enlightenment.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The Evangelion community doesn't love the dub but they don't actively dislike it.

While that is more true of Evangelion that it is of DBZ, that's not universally true. I've read quite a number of sentiments from people who think that the dub is horrible to the point of being unwatchable. I couldn't disagree more, but those sentiments do exist. It's not (NEARLY) as bad a divide as DBZ's fandom, certainly, but there's still a divide.

Which is what I meant earlier, in that there's no such thing as a universally-loved dub. There are people out there who hate dubs because they're dubs, and consider any viewing experience other than the version with the original language to be a desecration. Those people would exist with or without FUNimation's treatment of the dub. Would it be as severe? Probably not, no. But it would still exist.

So yeah, FUNi fucked up the community without a shadow of a doubt. They created a version so different that the knee jerk reaction is intense beyond anything I've ever seen before. With a show like Dragon Ball, that attracts many casual, younger, and nostalgic viewers, you're not exactly in a community that takes any interest in enlightenment.

Weeeeellllll....theory time. Kanzenshuu has always (or, at least since I joined it) been quite civil. However, looking at earlier, archived sentiments from fans of the Japanese version who were fans when the dub first started airing (on websites like DBZ Uncensored), there was plenty of intense, uncivil reactions from those fans as well. I understand disapproving of FUNimation's treatment--I disapprove of FUNimation's treatment--but an old news article mentioned that FUNimation got hate mail that went as far as asking them to "burn in the deepest regions of hell."

That's hardly civil. We just don't single them out as being rude because we happen to agree with their opinion on how FUNimation treated their dub (even if we disagree with the lack of civility). And when someone says something like that, they've, whether they realize it or not, helped to set the tone for the dialogue that will be used in discussions about the dub's treatment.

I don't know that it's such a stretch to say that rude defenders of the dub were partially the result of rude defenders of the original version. When you attack something that somebody loves, it puts them on the defense, and then on the offense. Then it just continues to get worse with time. Rudeness breeds rudeness.

Which is why I'm so glad I escaped from trying desperately to find good discussions on YouTube and found Kanzenshuu!

[Fionordequester]

I don't know that it's such a stretch to say that rude defenders of the dub were partially the result of rude defenders of the original version. When you attack something that somebody loves, it puts them on the defense, and then on the offense. Then it just continues to get worse with time. Rudeness breeds rudeness.

Indeed, and I can attest to feeling exactly that way when I see the seemingly endless supply of Japanese fans that think Team Faulconer sounded like people who composed their music by having their cats run on the keyboards.

[Ajay]

Yes, you're right, there's those type of people in every fandom. I was just speaking generally though. It's mostly a pretty chill community.

And yeah, like I said, kneejerk reactions are strong and they most certainly go both ways. I don't pretend for a second that fans of the original are somehow exempt from judgement.

I'm not sure I agree that the divide we have now is a result of a bunch of jackasses going back and forth but sure, it may be a part of it but I don't think it's a primary cause.

To answer the topic's question though; yes, FUNi absolutely are at fault. Yeah, you'd still have the uncivil arguments between the worst types but it'd certainly be on a far smaller scale akin to the communities I mentioned prior. The reason any of that exists on the scale it does is because of FUNimation.

[Adamant]

Weeeeellllll....theory time. Kanzenshuu has always (or, at least since I joined it) been quite civil. However, looking at earlier, archived sentiments from fans of the Japanese version who were fans when the dub first started airing (on websites like DBZ Uncensored), there was plenty of intense, uncivil reactions from those fans as well. I understand disapproving of FUNimation's treatment--I disapprove of FUNimation's treatment--but an old news article mentioned that FUNimation got hate mail that went as far as asking them to "burn in the deepest regions of hell."

That's hardly civil. We just don't single them out as being rude because we happen to agree with their opinion on how FUNimation treated their dub (even if we disagree with the lack of civility). And when someone says something like that, they've, whether they realize it or not, helped to set the tone for the dialogue that will be used in discussions about the dub's treatment.

Do keep in mind that back in the 90s, an English dub wasn't "this irrelevant thing you can ignore and just keep watching the Japanese version like before", it was "the one and only version you're going to get in an accessible format with clean audio and video". It's perfectly natural that people get somewhat angry when a company monopolizes the license for a show they want, and then do an insultingly awful mockery of a release of it, and that's the one and only release you're going to get outside of hard-to-find 5th-generation scratchy VHS tapes.

It wasn't disagreement with how someone treated an optional variant release, it was disagreement at how they shat all over the one and only version that was being made available. And that's... perfectly ok.

[VegettoEX]

Going along with what Adamant said, it's easy to forget that there was no uncut version for an incredibly long time, especially when you're (a) younger and (b) thinking in "Internet Time".

1996-1998 was the edited dub from FUNimation bringing 67ish episodes down to 53ish episodes. The next year brought us promises of an "uncut" English dub, and one with the original Japanese music, all after having seen what was possible with their work in conjunction with Pioneer on DBZ Movies 1-3.

What did we get? Season 3. What did it have? Uncut video, sure. Not a single other thing in that product could be considered "uncut", even in the "uncut" version.

It took a business proposal (not just a petition) from an adult group of fans to get the company to consider releasing it in Japanese on DVD the next year, by this point abandoning the English dub entirely.

It's not like today when you can worry about if your video is cropped or not and go import a Japanese release. There was no release, pretty much anywhere, to suffice.

[Hades]

I'd blame Saban more, considering that they were the ones who imposed such changes on Funimation. The Saban produced dub was the one that became a hit, and Funi had to go along with the precedents set because they weren't in a position to do much else.

[Flame Dragon]

Honestly the fans are right in hating Funimation Z Dub.
Just because of one reason: Funi throught Americans were too stupid to like the show as it was intended to be, so they changed it.
I'm not even American and i feel insulted by this. It's just really unrespectful and insulting to your intelligence.

I actually like some tracks of the Faulconer score very much! It's just this lack of respect that bothers me. And i feel anyone that likes the Z dub is basically agreeing "Yes i'm stupid i don't know what to eat so please feed me".

I don't want to offend anyone, i'm just opposed to these practices, in my perfect world, companies should respect their customers, not treat them like retards.

[ABED]

But who watches the show for the music?

People who appreciate quality music made for the series.

A great example is Dragon Ball Kai with the replacement Kikuchi score that is very limited, repetitive and annoying then there's the Majin Boo arc which has a VGM score with now more variety but misplaced BGMs all over the place.

Watching Dragon Ball Kai like this is distracting for me, at least with the Kikuchi issue that can be solved since Yamamoto composed for almost all episodes (minus a few) but not Majin Boo arc.

Do you watch it FOR the music? Are you honestly telling me that you will watch a show with crappy writing, bad acting, and uninteresting characters to listen to music? That was my point, people won't sit through hundreds of episodes just to listen to music.

Anyway, FUNi's reasons for changing are insulting. The idea that American kids can't get into stuff that is foreign without drastic changes (awful childish dialog, music that doesn't stop, etc.) is patronizing.

[Super Sonic]

Abed, that thought and mindset was around since the days of Astro Boy. It's only in recent years it has changed more. Also with what the thread starter said about no divide in Mexico wondering about weaboos is likely due to being Mexico, and a lot of guys saying Mexican fans can't be weaboos. (Not sure how accurate this is, but a lot of folks say, in order to be a weaboo, besides being super obsessed with Japan, one also must be caucasian).

[Valerius Dover]

They've certainly made some questionable decisions, or rather Barry Watson has. But they ultimately learned from their mistakes, and provide the Japanese version, legally available. There are many other anime that don't have that luxury, so we have to rely on fansubbers working on and off and providing them online.

Do I hate the US music? No, I love it!
Do I hate its reason for existing? Oh, unbelievably.
Now, I don't know why these dubbing companies do it in the first place. I can understand replacing vocal songs that aren't always translatable, but replacing instrumental BGM is just plain pointless and a waste of time and money. It's kind of a slap in the face to the original composers, really. Especially for those companies who don't even offer the original version, like 4Kids. Again, Funimation offering the original is a big thing many people take for granted.

But that's beside the point. The Kanzenshuu community I find to be a very safe haven free of those "my opinion is fact" people. I just hate how I see YouTube comments saying stuff like "Anyone who likes the dub has a severe mental disorder and deserves to die" and "I no wash it in Japuheez becuz i no no how to reed text on skreen". Can't we either like both versions for what they are, or just ignore the one we don't like?

[ABED]

Abed, that thought and mindset was around since the days of Astro Boy. It's only in recent years it has changed more.

I understand, I didn't mean to imply it started with FUNi, but I've read actual comments from those in charge about their reasons and they are often so obnoxious.