The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

[dbzfan7]

So...do we say Toriyama is George Lucasing Dragon ball yet?

You can't say that when the events of these interviews only affect these interviews. Reality hasn't warped, that's evident by our memories remaining in tact. Just because Vegeta tells Freeza that Zarbon revealed Freeza could transform it doesn't mean the scene in which Vegeta learns of this is actually in the Dragon Ball Z or Dragon Ball Kai cartoons. Everything happens where everything happens...these interviews just so happen to only happen in these interviews, lest a future work adapts these texts.

I never said he was...I was just merely joking.

[Marco Polo]

I'm just extremely annoyed in general by Toriyama continually attempting to tie in this piece of shit to the manga that ended 20 years before it was made. Especially with all the retcons in an attempt to disguise the fact that Beerus comes out of absolutely nowhere.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm just extremely annoyed in general by Toriyama continually attempting to tie in this piece of shit to the manga that ended 20 years before it was made. Especially with all the retcons in an attempt to disguise the fact that Beerus comes out of absolutely nowhere.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit.

From my perspective, yeah, that's exactly what it means.

[Birusu16]

So if Beerus really did seal the elder Kai away then wouldn't that mean Beerus is over 75 million years old?

[sintzu]

What was wrong with Buu just being a freak accident created by a powerful magical wizard ?

What was wrong with vegeta being an only child ?
What was wrong with kaio-sama's planet just being small ?
What was wrong with anger and hatred being the kyes to get a ssj level ?
What was wrong with all saiyns being evil with goku as the out cast ?
what was wrong with bardock being a cold hearted saiyan who didn't care about his child ?
What was wrong with goku being sent to earth to destroy it ?
What was wrong with goku getting his good nature from grandpa gohan ?
What was wrong with the elder kaioshin being sealed away by a no-body ?

Any thing else ?

"someone get this man as far away from the franchise as possible".

I'm sure all of us will be saying that when the other Q and A's come out

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Still doesn't change the fact that he said the enemy sealed him because of fear or his abilities. Sure, if you want you can start warping the manga and saying "Old Kai lied, this scene exists to confuse us", but... well, see the quoted post from Gaffer.

We don't know what their argument was. Maybe it was about his power. Maybe Beerus was annoyed with Rou Kaioshin using his power to make strong guys & oppose him. That's what you get if you combine the interview with the manga.

If that was the case, it should have been made explicit, yet it wasn't. I bet you ten bucks that wasn't what Toriyama had in mind.

Doesn't matter. There is no reason for Beerus to be as strong as he is 75 million years later, and Toriyama's new info about this only adds things to what we knew, it doesn't retcon anything.

What was wrong with goku getting his good nature from grandpa gohan ?

When the hell did that one change?!

[sintzu]

When the hell did that one change?!

How bardock and his mother are portrayed in the chapter hint at it

[TheDevilsCorpse]

So if Beerus really did seal the elder Kai away then wouldn't that mean Beerus is over 75 million years old?

It means we don't know what it means. Something has got to be "wrong" somewhere...

Elder Kaioshin was East Kaioshin's predecessor from 15 generations ago. Kaioshin tells us that Buu was created when Earthling were learning to walk on two legs, and he was there for the original pampage.

The Daizenshu places this rampage at 5 million years ago, but nothing in the manga says that's when it happened.

The Super Exciting Guide says Shinjin live for 75,000 years, but doesn't say if the gold fruit variety that become Kaioshin are included in that number.

This Twel-Buu interview tells us Kaioshin have a lifespan of 75,000 years, but give a different creation process for the Kaioshin and doesn't even mention normal Shinjin.

Soooooo that's either 75 Million years with one interpretation, or 1.25 Million years with the other...

[RandomGuy96]

Still doesn't change the fact that he said the enemy sealed him because of fear or his abilities. Sure, if you want you can start warping the manga and saying "Old Kai lied, this scene exists to confuse us", but... well, see the quoted post from Gaffer.

We don't know what their argument was. Maybe it was about his power. Maybe Beerus was annoyed with Rou Kaioshin using his power to make strong guys & oppose him. That's what you get if you combine the interview with the manga.

If that was the case, it should have been made explicit, yet it wasn't. I bet you ten bucks that wasn't what Toriyama had in mind.

Doesn't matter. There is no reason for Beerus to be as strong as he is 75 million years later, and Toriyama's new info about this only adds things to what we knew, it doesn't retcon anything.

What was wrong with goku getting his good nature from grandpa gohan ?

When the hell did that one change?!

Manga: sealed away because his enemy feared his abilities: "He was freaked out by how fearsome I am. Yep, sure wa~~~as.”

Interview: sealed away because of an argument with a petty god about some trifling thing.

They're clearly different reasons, and completely incompatible unless you assume Elder Kaioshin was a liar. In which case, WHAT'S THE DAMN POINT? I'm on the borderline of just outright ignoring all of the new Toriyama-given stuff.

No, it does matter. Rule of perception and all that. You're assuming this when I guarantee you that's not what Toriyama had in mind.

EDIT: oh, add the number of Kaioshin to the list of bullshit. It can't be explained away with "maybe he means 3 Kaioshin per position, like maybe there are three North Kaioshins?", because he proceeds to say there are two patrolling the universe now. We know those two to be Kibitoshin and Old Kai. So it seems like he genuinely forgot there were five. Maybe he only remembered the three he drew...?

[Kid Buu]

I know this is essentially a pointless post but I wanted to mention I agree with everything RandomGuy96 has said so far.

[Gaffer Tape]

That sentence right there is this Q and A and a lot of Toriyama's more recent involvement in general in a nutshell. "The actual damn manga said this, but what really happened was...". Goku's mission, Old Kai's old enemy, Commander Red's position, Buu's origin... all of it is getting retconned away by poorly thought out BS that did not need to exist.

Ah. Just wanted to say I've been loving reading what you're saying today, but this particular paragraph absolutely perfectly encapsulates it. Change for the sake of change. No thought, no connection to his previous writings. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, and Toriyama is just prepping for an absolutely wonderful new story that really, really requires Tao Pai Pai and Mr. Satan's past to be intertwined, Dr. Gero to be leading the RRA from the shadows, Boo to be a force of nature from the dawn of time, and for absolutely everything about the Kaioshin to be totally different. Maybe. Just maybe. Although, really, I can't help but think that if he really had to tell a story so incompatible with his own story, maybe he just should have started a new franchise where he could have made all these things exactly as he wanted...

I dunno. Some fans seem to eat up all this "world-building" stuff (although I find these to be more world-shattering), but it just seems to me to be talking for the sake of talking. Like he or Shueisha really want an audience to promote this full-color manga, but they've run out of legitimate stuff to say (which, after 30 years, is really no crime), so it's just, like, "Screw it. We'll make shit up. If it's wrong, we'll just hide behind, 'Oh, well, this is what the true story was.'"

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Manga: sealed away because his enemy feared his abilities: "He was freaked out by how fearsome I am. Yep, sure wa~~~as.”

Interview: sealed away because of an argument with a petty god about some trifling thing.

Both combined: Beerus was annoyed by Kaioshin's ability because he could create fighters stronger than him, so he sealed him in a sword after he annoyed him even more with a trifling thing.

This Twel-Buu interview tells us Kaioshin have a lifespan of 75,000 years, but give a different creation process for the Kaioshin and doesn't even mention normal Shinjin.

What is the different creation process?

When the hell did that one change?!

How bardock and his mother are portrayed in the chapter hint at it

How? Bardock is still a mass murderer, and Goku obviously wasn't soft like his mother, since he was a violent baby until he lost his memories. Just because his evil father loved him & his mother was soft and unfitting for battle doesn't mean that his personality was affected from them.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Love the avatar Piccolo. MegaMan .Exe never die!

Count me as someone who can actually get behind the new Buu info. He's always been a little "Cell... IN SPAAAAACE!", so this added dimension to his origins is very welcome and interesting to me. Eternal being of chaos just seems to fit him better and gives him some more mystery.

Honestly, I'm okay with this too. Playing the "Where did it all come from?" card is a bit redundant when we're arguing about where or not gods came from a tree that came from nowhere. Not like Bibidi is ever around to tell us otherwise (heck, where did Bibidi come from? Babidi? I don't feel compelled to ask that). Beerus sealing Old Kai... why not. I could see Beerus having grown in strength over the what, dozens of millennia that would have to have passed for the two Kaioshins to be as far apart as they are.

As for Bibidi's sealing spell... people, we ground conversations on these in the understanding that Toriyama is making stuff up on the fly, why is a phrase we are never going to hear again any more?

[kuartus4]

Just throwing this out there. Maybe the trifling thing they were arguing over was elder kais potential unlock ability? Beerus got mad that the kai had this power and they argued over it, which made Beerus even angrier and he sealed him in the sword. Elder kai interpreted this as fear of him by Beerus.

As for the other kaioshin stuff, it just says there are 3 of them now. It doesnt say there werent more before. And it says the other one will sprout if one dies by accident. Last time I checked, the four kaioshin that died were killed intentionally. So perhaps the other one doesnt grow unless their death is accidental.

[Hellspawn28]

I do like AT is giving us info that fans been wondering about for years. He said that Freeza is a mutant, that him and Cold are the only members of their family. People always wanted to know what their race was like. Also we had the question on who steal away Elder Kaioshin in the Z sword since we had people making fan fiction about that topic for years.

[mAcChaos]

I do like AT is giving us info that fans been wondering about for years. He said that Freeza is a mutant, that him and Cold are the only members of their family. People always wanted to know what their race was like. Also we had the question on who steal away Elder Kaioshin in the Z sword since we had people making fan fiction about that topic for years.

That kind of stuff is pretty much what keeps the community alive long after the show is stale. Once you remove that mystery it takes out the remaining interest.

[Gaffer Tape]

Exactly. The problem with fans is that they're usually not writers, and that they are always wanting to have something to make them relive that feeling they had when they were first excited about the fandom. And so they're quick to leap to any new piece of information, hoping it will give them their "fix" without thinking about whether it's actually good for the franchise they love. But I just don't see the fascination in information for information's sake. And from a storytelling perspective, answering every trivial detail and connecting character after character doesn't enlarge the world. It just shrinks it.

[Hellspawn28]

I notice in the interview, they mention SSj4 and a possible SSj5. Toriyama didn't seem to brought up SSj4 in the Interview. It either slip his mind or he does not care about the creations from Toei.

[Fionordequester]

You know, as long as he's at it though, someone really should ask him...

"Was Gohan SSJ1 or SSJ2 in his fight against Dabura?" I'm surprised nobody has yet actually.

[Kid Buu]

You know, as long as he's at it though, someone really should ask him...

"Was Gohan SSJ1 or SSJ2 in his fight against Dabura?" I'm surprised nobody has yet actually.

He'll probably say something along the lines of

"What? It doesn't matter how strong Gohan gets, he'll always be useless compared to Goku"