Did FUNImation irrepairably cripple the fandom in the US?

[TheBlackPaladin]

I think the rude diehard fans of dubs are equally as bad as those of subs

There are rude diehard sub fans of Dragon Ball?

Oh, absolutely. Rudeness is absolutely not a trait that's unique to dub fans. Either they're not all here, or some people here are much ruder outside of Kanzenshuu. I don't want to publicly name names since that would be rude in and of itself, but I can name plenty of YouTubers/internet users who vastly prefer the sub and are very rude in one way or another. Whether it's looking down on dub fans ("They're not real fans") to criticizing the performance of the dub actors using terminology that is in no way respectable ("[Insert English voice actor name here] has zero f****** charm and every time I hear them I feel like my ears are being raped"), I've seen plenty of it.

In the interest of fairness, I've never taken a poll to see what kinds of fans typically do this, but I think I do see it more often from dub fans. But exclusively from dub fans? No way. Plenty of rude diehard sub fans as well.

Which only serves to reinforce my belief that FUNimation is not responsible for rude fans. Rude fans are responsible for rude fans.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I don't know if I'd say cripple, but it's very annoying when you have people unknowingly bring up dub lines in debates and whatnot, and it makes it very hard to have discussions with people who only know of FUNimation's dubs.

Now that the US has had the Japanese voice track with Simmons' subs for so long and on so many releases, the real issue is past. Cripple, stunt, these are words are too strong and more pertinently, judgmental; the Americans here (speaking for the Americans on this board, of course, not the entire forum!) should be happy a property we like is enjoyed by so many people in so many walks of life. Isn't that something fans of a lot of other properties only dream of? Anime fans in most of the world dream of?

Divided, probably. The way every kids anime with some overseas marketability is when dubs swap things out. It does not offend me that someone enjoys the hope of the universe speech, it frustrates me just a mite when we've had different experiences with and expectations of Dragon Ball (the Funi dub-related, not individual, the individual are good) that make it sound like we're speaking different languages.

Which only serves to reinforce my belief that FUNimation is not responsible for rude fans. Rude fans are responsible for rude fans.

Yuppers. I've already shared Battle of Gods stories, but through it I've gotten (not coerced, just as a result) at least two people who had never watched DBZ in Japanese before to give it a shot; the latter of which has probably watched a collective ten TV episodes besides since in the background when we were doing other things like it was nothing, because it was, it was just DBZ in Japanese. It's a people thing.

[Gaffer Tape]

the Americans here should be happy a property we like is enjoyed by so many people in so many walks of life. Isn't that something fans of a lot of other properties only dream of? Anime fans in most of the world dream of?

Eh, not really. I mean, I guess it's nice to have my opinion validated by the fact that other people like it, but I really couldn't care one way or the other if Dragon Ball was popular or not. If anything, I wish it was less popular. Then maybe people like FUNimation wouldn't be constantly putting the footage through the wringer to make it look "new." Then maybe no one would be asking Toriyama to come up with a bunch of idiotic tidbits that do nothing but diminish the value of the storytelling.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

the Americans here should be happy a property we like is enjoyed by so many people in so many walks of life. Isn't that something fans of a lot of other properties only dream of? Anime fans in most of the world dream of?

Eh, not really. I mean, I guess it's nice to have my opinion validated by the fact that other people like it, but I really couldn't care one way or the other if Dragon Ball was popular or not. If anything, I wish it was less popular. Then maybe people like FUNimation wouldn't be constantly putting the footage through the wringer to make it look "new." Then maybe no one would be asking Toriyama to come up with a bunch of idiotic tidbits that do nothing but diminish the value of the storytelling.

Any idea how a 508-episode anime trilogy is going to leave Japan any other way? Dragon Ball isn't something you can just buy the license for and throw out a sub-50 episode complete series set under the radar.

[Gaffer Tape]

Um... what? It seemed to get by just fine prior to 2007 without shitty video transfers and Toriyama pulling stuff out of his ass. And, if you're referring to FUNimation's "artistic license" with the dub, it managed to make it to other countries without such heavy reversioning and get along fine. So I guess my answer to your question is... that. That's how it does it.

You seem to be confusing what I'm saying. Obviously the show has to be popular enough to sustain itself during its initial run. But that's long since over. Unless it getting more popular is going to get me a Dragon Ball Dragon Box, Dragon Ball as a franchise could die today for all I care, and I could be the only fan left. Whether or not other people like it is not going to change how I personally feel about it. What I'm saying is, is that while it's fun to have people I can discuss this with, I don't need others to validate my love for something. And at this point, it's not going to have any negative impact on fandom as a whole. Like I said, with the crap that's been coming out lately, it might be for its own good. The series is over. Let it be over.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

You seem to be confusing what I'm saying. Obviously the show has to be popular enough to sustain itself during its initial run. But that's long since over.

And if Dragon Ball's US presence died in, say, 2004, we'd have far less than we have now (No Funi Dragon Boxes, if nothing else), because Dragon Ball was always built as a property that needed some long-term momentum.

[GS7X7]

Yeah, it did. It caused years and years of dub vs. sub wars. Fans had to complain for years at Funimation just to get them to do dual-dvds, and moreso to try to get the dub better and see other improvements. Funimation refused to listen, leading eventually to fiascos like Movies 7 and 8 and, of course, "Step into the Grand Tour" and a badly butchered version of GT.

Funimation eventually did right doing dual-music dvds and finally giving us a pure quality dub with DBZ Kai which stuck purely with the original (no pun intended) music. Funimation was the house that DBZ built, but it took years for them to show DBZ the proper respect it deserved.

Fandoms with great dubs (Cowboy Bebop and Trigun) didn't have this much fighting and drama going on. If Funimation had just done a good job from the start it would have made things much easier for the fans.

[ABED]

I think you mean some other movie than 8 because Broly - the Legendary Super Saiyan has a very accurate dub. Even GT's dub is pretty damn good. I don't know why it got a reputation for being a bad dub. We can quibble about the music and the Japanese version but the dub is about on par with the DB dub.

I'm not sure what constitutes crippling the fandom. Sure the dub is often terrible, but even that couldn't stop the show from being a phenomenon.

[GS7X7]

I think you mean some other movie than 8 because Broly - the Legendary Super Saiyan has a very accurate dub. Even GT's dub is pretty damn good. I don't know why it got a reputation for being a bad dub. We can quibble about the music and the Japanese version but the dub is about on par with the DB dub.

I'm not sure what constitutes crippling the fandom. Sure the dub is often terrible, but even that couldn't stop the show from being a phenomenon.

Oh you are right! Sorry, I forgot about Movie 8. Been ages since I watched it.

Well, it was a good dub, except for the lousy music and two lines. (Goten not saying his attack name when his lips move, and Vegeta calling Goku a "Clown" even though that insulted originated during the MB saga)

Movie 7 was definitely quite horrible. I remember that one, with the redneck android plus the pimp android. (shudders)

As for GT's dub.... you think that's as good as DB's dub? Lol, I actually really love DB's dub but I wouldn't compare the two by any means. GT is hated primarily because they took out the one really great thing it had going (an amazing soundtrack) with a really, really bad one.

I haven't seen all of GT's dub eps- I've heard some have great scripts, some poor scripts- but the final episode had a really horrible dub script overall, especially compared to how well the J. version pulled it off.

[dbzkfan543]

Well, I can give a new perspective on this...

I'm a relatively new fan who started on Kai's dub. Part 2 wasn't out when I started watching, so I switched to fansubs. I watched those muted for about 15 episodes or so because Goku sounded so odd to me, which of course had some side effects (and I quote,"ZARBON IS A BOY?!?!?!?"), but when I began to unmute, I grew to love the Japanese version. I own the first four FUNi Dragon Boxes, 'Season 1' of Kai (Kikuchi score), and plan to buy the first Dragon Ball blue brick at some point to watch in Japanese.

So yeah, when I watched the FUNimation Z dub with Falcouner score for the first time, I was appalled. My first thought was something along the lines of, "Oh, the humanity," but less dramatic. When I rented the orange bricks from my local library, however, I thought, "Huh."

I became rather neutral on the matter over time. Sure, it's cheesy and barely resembles the original version, but at the end of the day, you can't really argue that it didn't accomplish what it set out to do. It set out to bring Dragon Ball Z to the lives of American children, and it did. Isn't it why most of us are here today?

In short, FUNimation's dub isn't awful to me, but it isn't MY version of the show. Did it cripple the fandom? Maybe partly, but it can be fixed when people realize that what they're getting isn't what's intended.

Looks at time and length of post:

I've been up way too long...

[Super Sonic]

Well, I can give a new perspective on this...

I'm a relatively new fan who started on Kai's dub. Part 2 wasn't out when I started watching, so I switched to fansubs.

*cough*pirate*cough *cough*pirate*cough*

On another note, I'd also say it wasn't irrepairably crippled by an example of guys in Japan doing the same thing. The Beast Wars Japanese dub was less accurate than the Funimation Z dub and the Transformers fandom there weren't crippled. Heck it wasn't crippled by Kiss Players so I'd say Funimation which didn't go that far didn't do that with DB's fandom. (though the latter did have folks abroad thinking Japanese folks are weird)

[ABED]

As for GT's dub.... you think that's as good as DB's dub? Lol, I actually really love DB's dub but I wouldn't compare the two by any means. GT is hated primarily because they took out the one really great thing it had going (an amazing soundtrack) with a really, really bad one.

I was talking purely about the dub, not the music, score, or anything else. The acting had improved by that point, and GT's dub is definitely on par with the DB dub. Just like that dub, it had episodes that stayed truer to the original, and episodes that deviated, but overall, the GT dub is about as close as the DB dub. Your point about the soundtrack is moot now since not only did the season sets put the score back, they also dubbed all of the opening and closing themes!

I can't recall how good the dub script for the final episode of GT, so I can't comment.

[GarrettCRW]

I dont think Funimation did anything. Its the Fans who wont accept the source material. Fumimation didnt do anything Dic didnt already do.

Except give us some of the best cartoons of the 80s.

That argument has some flaws, though.

One, including the SMB Super Show and Heathcliff but not this or this (extra credit would have involved name-dropping this) weakens your argument.

Two, implying that DiC of the '80s, when the owner was Jean Chalopin until 1986 (and much of his staff sticking around for a year or two after that), and that of the '90s, when Andy Heyward was firmly entrenched as owner, are the same thing is ridiculous. DiC had already utterly broken the market for syndicated cartoons by undercutting everyone (except Disney, which is why so many people seem to think that DuckTales is the holy birthing point of '80s animation), so what they did with Sailor Moon was not a shock. (Doubly so if you were a fan of Sunbow's G.I. Joe, and saw how they crapped all over a true classic with their version.) This latter-era DiC was notorious for hiring the cheapest animation firms they could find, only to lose the cost savings having to order repeated re-takes, earning them the nickname, "Do It Cheap". And the less said about the writing, the better.