Why didn't Akira Toriyama just introduce Gogeta instead?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I could address that point by point, but I see no need, as I don't see how any of that outweighs Old Kaioshin's very clear conclusion of, "[Vegetto] is that strong because of Goku and Vegeta, not the Potara." If Goku and Vegeta are somehow special and make for a particularly effective and strong Fusion regardless of the method used, then that's all there needs to be to it, math and power-chain "logic" be damned.

Not, it's been stated that it's both because the Potara are so amazing and because Goku & Vegeta are in the top 3 & rivals.

And think of it from a narrative perspective. Had Toei not beaten Toriyama to the punch with a Goku/Vegeta Fusion Dance, and Toriyama had no reason to devise another method... does anyone really expect me to believe that Goku and Vegeta would use the Fusion Dance only for Boo to still kick their asses even if they ramped it up to SSJ3?

I would expect a weaker Boo.

[miguelnuva1]

Who said Fusion dance is linear. Gogeta would be as strong as the plot required him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Who said Fusion dance is linear.

Why wouldn't it be? Why would Goten & Trunks get a smaller boost when Goku & Vegeta get a higher boost?

[miguelnuva1]

Who said Fusion dance is linear.

Why wouldn't it be? Why would Goten & Trunks get a smaller boost when Goku & Vegeta get a higher boost?

Goten and Trunks aren't noted to make a big increase in power but Gotenks did. Goku and Vegeta being 2x the boys could make Gogeta 10x Gotenks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, math doesn't work like that. If Goten is a 1, and Goku is a 2, then if Fusion is, say, a x60 (it's stated that the result is dozens of times stronger, and that it gives a greater boost than Super Saiyan) multiplier, then Gotenks would be a x60, and Gogeta would be a 120. Still a x2 difference.

[Gogeta8001]

I could address that point by point, but I see no need, as I don't see how any of that outweighs Old Kaioshin's very clear conclusion of, "[Vegetto] is that strong because of Goku and Vegeta, not the Potara." If Goku and Vegeta are somehow special and make for a particularly effective and strong Fusion regardless of the method used, then that's all there needs to be to it, math and power-chain "logic" be damned.

And think of it from a narrative perspective. Had Toei not beaten Toriyama to the punch with a Goku/Vegeta Fusion Dance, and Toriyama had no reason to devise another method... does anyone really expect me to believe that Goku and Vegeta would use the Fusion Dance only for Boo to still kick their asses even if they ramped it up to SSJ3?

He was only speaking on Vegito's power. Applying the exaxt same context to Gogeta is conjecture as is him getting a rival boost like Vegito.

Also, I find it odd that even after seeing M12 for himself and seeing how powerful Gogeta is, Toriyama decides to throw that line in the manga about Fusion not being able to work against Buuhan. I don't think that's a coincidence. To me, that's Toriyama taking in how strong Gogeta was in M12 and making an even more powerful Fusion between Goku and Vegeta to accomplish what the ordinary Fusion between them couldn't do. From a narrative standpoint, that makes perfect sense.

[Kaboom]

Boo has spent the entire arc thus far believing that NOTHING could beat or match him, and kept getting proven wrong. Even as Vegetto was slapping him around, he kept insisting that Vegetto was weak and doomed.

Why are we so eager to nerf Gogeta by believing Boo now with this one line? And try to wiggle around Old Kaioshin's line all you want, but he's VERY clearly saying, "Goku and Vegeta are the MAIN reason why Vegetto is so strong, NOT the Potara."

Fans are the only ones who try to predict Fusion based around "math." Trying to say "Gogeta's Fusion boost can't be any greater than Gotenks'" is pure conjecture at best. It's almost as bad as all the "power gaps" baloney that end up plaguing so many discussions about numerical power levels. The manga only ever said that Fusion is way more powerful than the individuals, and guidebooks have only ever put forth off-hand, non-specific comments such as "many times stronger" or "more like multiplication than addition."

Is it so hard to believe that Fusion just isn't so predictable, and that Gogeta would simply be as strong as the story required him to be? I swear, I'll never understand this type of "logic." It almost feels like there's some vendetta against Gogeta.

[xmysticgohanx]

Boo has spent the entire arc thus far believing that NOTHING could beat or match him, and kept getting proven wrong. Even as Vegetto was slapping him around, he kept insisting that Vegetto was weak and doomed.

Why are we so eager to nerf Gogeta by believing Boo now with this one line? And try to wiggle around Old Kaioshin's line all you want, but he's VERY clearly saying, "Goku and Vegeta are the MAIN reason why Vegetto is so strong, NOT the Potara."

Is it so hard to believe that Fusion just isn't so predictable, and that Gogeta would simply be as strong as the story required him to be? I swear, I'll never understand this type of "logic." It almost feels like there's some vendetta against Gogeta.

Without a plot boost it's easy to see how Gogeta would be no match for Buuhan when you factor the difference between Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks.

No, math doesn't work like that. If Goten is a 1, and Goku is a 2, then if Fusion is, say, a x60 (it's stated that the result is dozens of times stronger, and that it gives a greater boost than Super Saiyan) multiplier, then Gotenks would be a x60, and Gogeta would be a 120. Still a x2 difference.

Off topic but I've thinking it's 60x for the past couple of weeks or so for the exact reasons you mentioned

[Kaboom]

Without a plot boost it's easy to see how Gogeta would be no match for Buuhan when you factor the difference between Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks.

But in a way, that's the point I'm trying to make. Fusion is, in and of itself, a "plot boost." Fusions end up exactly as strong as the story needs them to be. Why do you think no guidebook has ever committed to a specific "multiplier" for any method of Fusion, when doing it for the Super Saiyan forms were so easy by comparison?

[Rocketman]

The midnight is cloudy and grim, yet a single light burns still in a lone apartment. The deadline approaches. A distant burst of lightning illuminates the scrawled calculations. Meaningless. Endless. Scratched into the walls, the ceiling, the floors. Papers scatter as the haggard man throws his sketchbook against the wall. "No, no! They'll never accept this! It just doesn't work!" He falls to his knees, pounding the floor. If his wife hears, she doesn't respond. "I've tried...god, I've tried...the math doesn't add up!" Hot tears fall, frustration incarnate, the sky rumbling in echo.

Lightning flashes, drawing a band across the floor. A sparkle catches his eye.

His wife's?

With trembling hands, he picks the delicate jewelry up.

Earrings.

Akira Toriyama smiles, relief, sweet relief on his face. "That's it...."

[Gogeta8001]

Boo has spent the entire arc thus far believing that NOTHING could beat or match him, and kept getting proven wrong. Even as Vegetto was slapping him around, he kept insisting that Vegetto was weak and doomed.

Why are we so eager to nerf Gogeta by believing Boo now with this one line? And try to wiggle around Old Kaioshin's line all you want, but he's VERY clearly saying, "Goku and Vegeta are the MAIN reason why Vegetto is so strong, NOT the Potara."

Fans are the only ones who try to predict Fusion based around "math." Trying to say "Gogeta's Fusion boost can't be any greater than Gotenks'" is pure conjecture at best. It's almost as bad as all the "power gaps" baloney that end up plaguing so many discussions about numerical power levels. The manga only ever said that Fusion is way more powerful than the individuals, and guidebooks have only ever had off-hand, noon-specific comments such as "many times stronger" or "more like multiplication than addition."

Is it so hard to believe that Fusion just isn't so predictable, and that Gogeta would simply be as strong as the story required him to be? I swear, I'll never understand this type of "logic." It almost feels like there's some vendetta against Gogeta.

Yes, their is a vendetta against Gogeta. Vegito is paying me to spread all this around the internet to tarnish his reputation

OT: Lemme adress what your saying piece by piece.

- Buu was not always cocky like your making him out to be. He knew the only way he could beat Ultimate Gohan was to have SSJ3 Gotenks's strength and obtain Piccolo's tactical mind showing that he can humble himself when he knows he can't get the job done. As for his fight with Vegito, he was only cocky at the beginning of the fight. When he started to get whooped by Vegito, he started to say things out of pure frustration and didn't put much thought into what he was saying much like how Cell did against Gohan. You might be thinking of the Anime where Buuhan is still cocky after getting beaten up but I don't put any stock in the same source that thinks SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan.

- Nobody's eager to nerf Gogeta. There was a time where I believed in the Gogeta hype but then I realized that he wasn't as strong as people made him out to be. What Old Kai said specifically meant Vegito so just because he's mentioning Goku and Vegeta doesn't necessarily mean the same can be applied to Gogeta because we have nothing to base his power on and even taking that into consideration, Toriyama, after observing the events of Movie 12 and seeing Gogeta with his own eyes decides for one reason or the other to still add in the line of Fusion not working against Buuhan. I don't think that line would be thrown in like that if their was no meaning for it. That's pretty much Toriyama saying "Potara is the only way the two can beat Buuhan".

- The only reason were not buying in the Vegito >= Gogeta thing is because their's no reason to make his boost absurdly larger than Gotenks given what were told. Not only that but why would Gogeta turn out to be massively stronger than Gotenks when their fusees aren't that much far apart? The problem here is that their is no good reason for it and people just want to think the opposite so Gogeta and Vegito can be relatively close to each other in power despite SSJ3 Gogeta being stated to not surpass Buuhan. This topic has a lot of similarity to the Broly one. People make him out stronger than he actually is.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

- Nobody's eager to nerf Gogeta. There was a time where I believed in the Gogeta hype but then I realized that he wasn't as strong as people made him out to be. What Old Kai said specifically meant Vegito so just because he's mentioning Goku and Vegeta doesn't necessarily mean the same can be applied to Gogeta because we have nothing to base his power on and even taking that into consideration, Toriyama, after observing the events of Movie 12 and seeing Gogeta with his own eyes decides for one reason or the other to still add in the line of Fusion not working against Buuhan. I don't think that line would be thrown in like that if their was no meaning for it. That's pretty much Toriyama saying "Potara is the only way the two can beat Buuhan".

Uh...Toriyama was privy to the fact that the Toei was using Gogeta in DBZ Movie 12 because he was slightly involved with the production, having fiddled with Janenba's design. There is no way he had seen the movie and Gogeta's strength yet though, because the film didn't release until March 04, 1995. The chapter revealing the Potara was released on January 13, 1995 and Vegetto officially formed two weeks later, after a break, on January 24th. So this whole discussion point really holds no water.

[Gogeta8001]

- Nobody's eager to nerf Gogeta. There was a time where I believed in the Gogeta hype but then I realized that he wasn't as strong as people made him out to be. What Old Kai said specifically meant Vegito so just because he's mentioning Goku and Vegeta doesn't necessarily mean the same can be applied to Gogeta because we have nothing to base his power on and even taking that into consideration, Toriyama, after observing the events of Movie 12 and seeing Gogeta with his own eyes decides for one reason or the other to still add in the line of Fusion not working against Buuhan. I don't think that line would be thrown in like that if their was no meaning for it. That's pretty much Toriyama saying "Potara is the only way the two can beat Buuhan".

Uh...Toriyama was privy to the fact that the Toei was using Gogeta in DBZ Movie 12 because he was slightly involved with the production, having fiddled with Janenba's design. There is no way he had seen the movie and Gogeta's strength yet though, because the film didn't release until March 04, 1995. The chapter revealing the Potara was released on January 13, 1995 and Vegetto officially formed two weeks later, after a break, on January 24th. So this whole discussion point really holds no water.

He still had to know the basis of the movie as well as Gogeta's power to decide to use Vegito instead.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Toriyama didn't change his mind because he didn't think Gogeta would be strong enough. He's been quoted saying, in this very thread, that he changed to use Vegetto because he didn't want to step on Toei's toes with a Metamorean Fusion for Goku and Vegeta, meaning he just didn't want to do the same thing they were going to do. It had nothing to do with the fan applied perception of power for the characters.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Boo has spent the entire arc thus far believing that NOTHING could beat or match him, and kept getting proven wrong. Even as Vegetto was slapping him around, he kept insisting that Vegetto was weak and doomed.

Why are we so eager to nerf Gogeta by believing Boo now with this one line? And try to wiggle around Old Kaioshin's line all you want, but he's VERY clearly saying, "Goku and Vegeta are the MAIN reason why Vegetto is so strong, NOT the Potara."

Fans are the only ones who try to predict Fusion based around "math." Trying to say "Gogeta's Fusion boost can't be any greater than Gotenks'" is pure conjecture at best. It's almost as bad as all the "power gaps" baloney that end up plaguing so many discussions about numerical power levels. The manga only ever said that Fusion is way more powerful than the individuals, and guidebooks have only ever had off-hand, noon-specific comments such as "many times stronger" or "more like multiplication than addition."

Is it so hard to believe that Fusion just isn't so predictable, and that Gogeta would simply be as strong as the story required him to be? I swear, I'll never understand this type of "logic." It almost feels like there's some vendetta against Gogeta.

Why would Fusion give different boosts to others? Why would Fusion give Goku & Vegeta a bigger boost that Goten & Trunks? What makes them so special? Why would Fusion work exactly like Potara when Namekian Assimilation, another merging method, is stated to be inferior, and when Fusion is also stated to be inferior to the Potara?

And no, I don't have a vendetta against Gogeta, I like him. I just have an objective opinion, and chose to have a logical conclusion. Given to the information we have, Vegetto is so strong because Goku & Vegeta as rivals (aka equals) are better matches that Goku & Gohan would be (Potara gives unpredictable results because it doesn't have any special requirements, unlike Fusion), and because the Potara are way stronger than Fusion, and nothing says that Fusion isn't a stable multiplier.

[Gogeta8001]

Toriyama didn't change his mind because he didn't think Gogeta would be strong enough. He's been quoted saying, in this very thread, that he changed to use Vegetto because he didn't want to step on Toei's toes with a Metamorean Fusion for Goku and Vegeta, meaning he just didn't want to do the same thing they were going to do. It had nothing to do with the fan applied perception of power for the characters.

It's not an issue of doing the same thing but rather establishing a villain who is beyond what a regular Fusion between Goku and Vegeta as evident with the statement Toriyama decided to put in after knowing what Gogeta would be.

Also, pretty much this

Why would Fusion give different boosts to others? Why would Fusion give Goku & Vegeta a bigger boost that Goten & Trunks? What makes them so special? Why would Fusion work exactly like Potara when Namekian Assimilation, another merging method, is stated to be inferior, and when Fusion is also stated to be inferior to the Potara?

And no, I don't have a vendetta against Gogeta, I like him. I just have an objective opinion, and chose to have a logical conclusion. Given to the information we have, Vegetto is so strong because Goku & Vegeta as rivals (aka equals) are better matches that Goku & Gohan would be (Potara gives unpredictable results because it doesn't have any special requirements, unlike Fusion), and because the Potara are way stronger than Fusion, and nothing says that Fusion isn't a stable multiplier.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's not an issue of doing the same thing but rather establishing a villain who is beyond what a regular Fusion between Goku and Vegeta as evident with the statement Toriyama decided to put in after knowing what Gogeta would be.

No, you're making a huge, unsupported assumption. We don't know how much of Movie 12's premise Toriyama was aware of, other than "Janenba" will be the villain and Goku and Vegeta will fuse to defeat him. Nothing beyond that, so anything else is nothing more than an assumption at this point. Factor in that Potara and Vegetto were introduced before Gogeta's film was released and that we have Toriyama himself quoted as basically say something to the effect of "I don't want to use the same Metamorean Fusion concept for Goku and Vegeta that Toei is doing", and it has absolutely nothing to do with power at all.

[Blade]

The midnight is cloudy and grim, yet a single light burns still in a lone apartment. The deadline approaches. A distant burst of lightning illuminates the scrawled calculations. Meaningless. Endless. Scratched into the walls, the ceiling, the floors. Papers scatter as the haggard man throws his sketchbook against the wall. "No, no! They'll never accept this! It just doesn't work!" He falls to his knees, pounding the floor. If his wife hears, she doesn't respond. "I've tried...god, I've tried...the math doesn't add up!" Hot tears fall, frustration incarnate, the sky rumbling in echo.

Lightning flashes, drawing a band across the floor. A sparkle catches his eye.

His wife's?

With trembling hands, he picks the delicate jewelry up.

Earrings.

Akira Toriyama smiles, relief, sweet relief on his face. "That's it...."

Wonderful - And probably quite close to the reality!

I imagine a similar scenario when coming up with the character of Beerus, only his cat walked into the room at his lowest ebb of creative drought.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Factor in that Potara and Vegetto were introduced before Gogeta's film was released and that we have Toriyama himself quoted as basically say something to the effect of "I don't want to use the same Metamorean Fusion concept for Goku and Vegeta that Toei is doing", and it has absolutely nothing to do with power at all.

That doesn't mean that everything would have been the same, just with Gogeta instead of Vegetto.

[Low Tone G]

Factor in that Potara and Vegetto were introduced before Gogeta's film was released and that we have Toriyama himself quoted as basically say something to the effect of "I don't want to use the same Metamorean Fusion concept for Goku and Vegeta that Toei is doing", and it has absolutely nothing to do with power at all.

That doesn't mean that everything would have been the same, just with Gogeta instead of Vegetto.

I agree. I think that it's safe to assume Gogeta was weaker than Vegetto, not only because the rival boost, but also because Goku couldn't use his full power to obtain Gogeta, but the erraings could make a stable mix of Goku and Vegeta with their full power, so in that case SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta + rival boost x magical multiplier. But there is nothing to say Gogeta would be incomparably weaker, and maybe SSJ2 Gogeta would have been also enough to beat Buuhan. But also Gogeta wouldn't have been the best choise because of time limit, and even if Gogeta could have vaporized Buuhan like he did to Janemba, because he didn't wan't kill his children and Piccolo, and many maybe the thought the Piccolo couldn't be resurrected again.