Vegeta the most evil?

[hleV]

You have provided absolutely nothing to suggest Vegeta being any less evil, only that he cares for some people and that he's smarter than before, choosing practically instead of "bwah I can't do this or that 'cuz of pride and all".

Vegeta was forced to risk his existence fighting Boo because not doing so would've increased the chances of Boo prevailing and destroying everything, including Vegeta's family.
Vegeta was forced to fuse with Goku (after being reminded of Boo having killed his family) because otherwise Boo would've prevailed and Vegeta's family wouldn't have been resurrected.
Vegeta was forced to come up with a plan to save Earth because his family was on it.
Vegeta admitting Goku's superiority has nothing to do with Vegeta being or not being evil.

There is absolutely nothing in the series suggesting that Vegeta cares about anyone but his close people's lives.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama said that Vegeta got less & less evil after the fateful night with Bulma. He is a completely good guy by the time of BoG.

[ABED]

There is absolutely nothing in the series suggesting that Vegeta cares about anyone but his close people's lives.

How is that not a good thing?

[Attitudefan]

There is absolutely nothing in the series suggesting that Vegeta cares about anyone but his close people's lives.

How is that not a good thing?

Well, he didn't before until he had a family, and it still took him to the brink of death to realize that he actually cares. But up until that point he doesn't care when we consider why he went majin.

[sangofe]

After reading on the Dragonblog, on the article "In the Defence of Nappa", seeing that even the baddest of the bad have some kind of redeeming qualities about them, maybe not enough to forgive their sins, but to not put them on the level of Vegeta's evil, backstabbing, sociopathic (bordering on psychopathic if we get a rendition by the likes of Brian Drummond), selfish, and conniving ways. For example, in the Dragonblog, he says that Nappa has a sense of kinship or attachment to close knit comrades and friends. One of his first lines is about wishing a fallen man back to life but is quickly shot down by Vegeta for a self-centred wish instead. Nappa, too, coaches his Saibaimen to go at full strength so they don't die by the Z-Fighters or by Vegeta. Nappa is compared to Tenshinhan and Goku in the blog, where Nappa, since he has the ability to feel for others, under circumstances like Goku or Ten, could end up being a caring individual. If given the chance, it is possible he could have changed his ways since he understands what it is like to lose companions. He has a bit of empathy in his heart. He kills the Z-fighters inadvertently for the most part; he isn't going to put others in harms way to win. He just likes a good fight. Vegeta, on the other hand, is willing to sacrifice everyone to get his way and shares no bond to anyone for most of the series.

Raditz is not even as bad. He doesn't go and kill Gohan as an example of his power, he didn't seem like he was even planning on that. He gave Goku many chances for Goku to join him out of respect since Goku is family. He even let all of Goku's friends live for the time being until he could convince Goku to join him. Raditz (was he really willing at any point? Possibly could have gave up his ways) even promised to change his ways before he was about to be killed even though it was a diversion. Vegeta never would do that and was never shown to show that since he would consider that as weak (and he did think Raditz was just baggage to the team).

Hell, even Freeza shows that he has something redeeming about him. He has kinship and wants acceptance by his father like after he thought he killed Trunks. Freeza acts like a child and says to his father that he can kill a Super Saiyan. At least it is something.

What do you guys think?

Discuss!

Here's a link to the Nappa article. It is written in ways I could never do. Enjoy!

http://thedragonballblog.blogspot.ca/20 ... nappa.html

Piccolo Daimaoh and Kid Buu are the most evil. No question about that.

[Attitudefan]

Of course, but I was thinking along the lines that they are evil by nature. Vegeta is evil by nurture, or by his own will. He is seriously an evil bastard (or I should say "was"). For 90% of the time he is in the show, he is doing selfish, needless, evil, and backstabbing things everyone else around him.

[ABED]

Well, he didn't before until he had a family, and it still took him to the brink of death to realize that he actually cares. But up until that point he doesn't care when we consider why he went majin.

I think he cared before he was about to die, but regardless of when, why is it not a good thing that his main concern is the people that mean the most to him? You seem to suggest that because he's doing it for his family and not some faceless stranger that he's not doing something heroic. I would argue the opposite, it's because of people who mean something to him that makes it heroic.

[hleV]

Toriyama said that Vegeta got less & less evil after the fateful night with Bulma. He is a completely good guy by the time of BoG.

Toriyama has no word on what happened in Dragon World since the release of Kanzenban to me. BOG didn't happen.

There is absolutely nothing in the series suggesting that Vegeta cares about anyone but his close people's lives.

How is that not a good thing?

How does that make him a good guy? Can't you imagine a completely evil person caring for his family?

[Zephyr]

You have provided absolutely nothing to suggest Vegeta being any less evil, only that he cares for some people and that he's smarter than before, choosing practically instead of "bwah I can't do this or that 'cuz of pride and all".

Vegeta was forced to risk his existence fighting Boo because not doing so would've increased the chances of Boo prevailing and destroying everything, including Vegeta's family.
Vegeta was forced to fuse with Goku (after being reminded of Boo having killed his family) because otherwise Boo would've prevailed and Vegeta's family wouldn't have been resurrected.
Vegeta was forced to come up with a plan to save Earth because his family was on it.
Vegeta admitting Goku's superiority has nothing to do with Vegeta being or not being evil.

There is absolutely nothing in the series suggesting that Vegeta cares about anyone but his close people's lives.

They wished for all of the good guys back to life.

Vegeta came back to life.

This not only suggests that he is no longer evil, it confirms it.

[hleV]

They wished for all of the good guys back to life.

Vegeta came back to life.

This not only suggests that he is no longer evil, it confirms it.

Funny for you to go back and just state that A confirms B, when A's credibility is what we were arguing (and what you failed to prove your point) about.

Yes, Vegeta is a good guy. According to Porunga. Is Vegeta a good guy according to Enma Daio? No. Is Vegeta a good guy in general? Definitely no.

[Deep Thought]

Vegeta, before his self-destruction against Majin Buu, asks Piccolo if he'll ever see Kakarrot in the afterlife. Piccolo then says, with very little hesitation, that Vegeta cumulatively committed far too many evil acts and will be reincarnated. Vegeta and Goku's souls will be in two completely different places; Goku's enjoying heavenly bliss, and Vegeta's soul being purged of evil and essentially recycled.

The bar for entering heaven doesn't exactly seem high either, Sayajin Arc Piccolo's soul was not only transported to heaven, but given a body, which is supposed to be a privileged only granted to heroes. Sayajin Arc Piccolo was pretty vicious, this was only a year after when, by and large Piccolo still wanted to take over the world and kill Goku (since the technique he used against Raditz was intended for Goku, and he considered killing Goku to be a bonus).

[ABED]

How does that make him a good guy? Can't you imagine a completely evil person caring for his family?

So you're saying he didn't do it for the right reasons? No, a completely evil person wouldn't care for his family like that. He's not caring for them because they are HIS family, he cares for them for the right reasons, they bring some measure of joy to his life. It's not about some form of tribalism, or the group, the family, the race, or the collective. He genuinely cares for his son and wife by this point. Vegeta from when we first meet him would not have given his life to protect them from harm.

[hleV]

The bar for entering heaven doesn't exactly seem high either, Sayajin Arc Piccolo's soul was not only transported to heaven, but given a body, which is supposed to be a privileged only granted to heroes. Sayajin Arc Piccolo was pretty vicious, this was only a year after when, by and large Piccolo still wanted to take over the world and kill Goku (since the technique he used against Raditz was intended for Goku, and he considered killing Goku to be a bonus).

Which shows just how much more evil Vegeta was than Piccolo.

How does that make him a good guy? Can't you imagine a completely evil person caring for his family?

So you're saying he didn't do it for the right reasons? No, a completely evil person wouldn't care for his family like that. He's not caring for them because they are HIS family, he cares for them for the right reasons, they bring some measure of joy to his life. It's not about some form of tribalism, or the group, the family, the race, or the collective. He genuinely cares for his son and wife by this point. Vegeta from when we first meet him would not have given his life to protect them from harm.

Oh, so caring for his own family makes Vegeta a good guy, while the rest of the world can go fuck itself and die as far as he's concerned. Gotcha. I mean, surely the court would dismiss the charges of a mass murder commited hours ago once Vegeta tells them he cares for his family.
Don't know where you live, but Vegeta would be considered very evil here.

[Zephyr]

They wished for all of the good guys back to life.

Vegeta came back to life.

This not only suggests that he is no longer evil, it confirms it.

Funny for you to go back and just state that A confirms B, when A's credibility is what we were arguing (and what you failed to prove your point) about.

Yes, Vegeta is a good guy. According to Porunga. Is Vegeta a good guy according to Enma Daio? No. Is Vegeta a good guy in general? Definitely no.

But where does the idea that A has remotely questionable credibility come from? The series? Your own imagination?

Any evidence that Vegeta is a bad guy after he was said to finally be a good guy, and not just your own desire to have him labelled as such?

[ABED]

Oh, so caring for his own family makes Vegeta a good guy, while the rest of the world can go fuck itself and die as far as he's concerned. Gotcha. I mean, surely the court would dismiss the charges of a mass murder commited hours ago once Vegeta tells them he cares for his family.
Don't know where you live, but Vegeta would be considered very evil here.

I never claimed Vegeta wasn't evil, ever, just that he's not the most evil. Please, don't put words in my mouth. Anyone who has read my comments on the matter will tell you that I don't think he's a good guy. He is a mass murderer, I agree, but so is Freeza. I'm arguing that Freeza is the most evil because Vegeta did help save the world.

[Attitudefan]

Oh, so caring for his own family makes Vegeta a good guy, while the rest of the world can go fuck itself and die as far as he's concerned. Gotcha. I mean, surely the court would dismiss the charges of a mass murder commited hours ago once Vegeta tells them he cares for his family.
Don't know where you live, but Vegeta would be considered very evil here

Exactly. Just a few moments ago, he sold his soul to Babidi to fight (KILL) Goku and kill whomever gets in his way. He did kill hundreds of people just then and didn't care if Buu was resurrected and destroy the Earth (AND HIS OWN FAMILY), just so he could kill Goku. Don't tell me he got better as he met Bulma since him turning over his soul to Babidi clearly shows it doesn't. For god sakes, his Final Flash would have blown the Earth up if he didn't deflect it, and the only reason he did that was to save himself. He cared not for his son and Krillin who were standing right there if they were caught in the blast.

Also, it took him a good beatdown from Buu to realize he was wrong about putting his family in danger. Nothing suggests, howver, that he even felt bad about killing those people at the stadium! He had no remorse for his actions towards anybody there. That is sociopathic behaviour. Sure, he changed his mind about Trunks and Bulma (or did he really?). He wanted to give them the best life possible, and that would be without him or Buu. But does that make him a good person or even a good parent? Hell no. He is criminal in everything he does all the way up to the end of the series, even assaulting and hospitalizing another competitor in the tournament with an uncalled for sucker punch. He isn't a good dude, and in a way, he reminds me of Lunch in her blond form. A sociopathic (possibly even psychopathic) criminal.

It is possible that Freeza is the most evil though. I agree. But I find Freeza is less personal in why he does what he does, where Vegeta does things on a personal level. It's like murder with a gun versus murder with a knife where Freeza is the gun user and Vegeta has the knife. What is more evil to you? It's debatable.

[auspx]

After reading on the Dragonblog, on the article "In the Defence of Nappa", seeing that even the baddest of the bad have some kind of redeeming qualities about them, maybe not enough to forgive their sins, but to not put them on the level of Vegeta's evil, backstabbing, sociopathic (bordering on psychopathic if we get a rendition by the likes of Brian Drummond), selfish, and conniving ways. For example, in the Dragonblog, he says that Nappa has a sense of kinship or attachment to close knit comrades and friends. One of his first lines is about wishing a fallen man back to life but is quickly shot down by Vegeta for a self-centred wish instead. Nappa, too, coaches his Saibaimen to go at full strength so they don't die by the Z-Fighters or by Vegeta. Nappa is compared to Tenshinhan and Goku in the blog, where Nappa, since he has the ability to feel for others, under circumstances like Goku or Ten, could end up being a caring individual. If given the chance, it is possible he could have changed his ways since he understands what it is like to lose companions. He has a bit of empathy in his heart. He kills the Z-fighters inadvertently for the most part; he isn't going to put others in harms way to win. He just likes a good fight. Vegeta, on the other hand, is willing to sacrifice everyone to get his way and shares no bond to anyone for most of the series.

Do we include anime-only filler in this debate?
If yes, then Vegeta's decision to kill Nappa was incredibly evil since Nappa was almost like his foster father.
If no, then Vegeta's decision to kill Nappa was not really that evil. Nappa was just his subordinate who disobeyed his orders and was executed for doing so.

Raditz is not even as bad. He doesn't go and kill Gohan as an example of his power, he didn't seem like he was even planning on that. He gave Goku many chances for Goku to join him out of respect since Goku is family. He even let all of Goku's friends live for the time being until he could convince Goku to join him. Raditz (was he really willing at any point? Possibly could have gave up his ways) even promised to change his ways before he was about to be killed even though it was a diversion. Vegeta never would do that and was never shown to show that since he would consider that as weak (and he did think Raditz was just baggage to the team).

I don't buy it. Raditz was a cowardly jerk who took his own nephew hostage, tried to kill him, and tried to kill his own brother. And as we saw in DB Minus, Raditz was angry at Goku for not doing something that Goku was never supposed to do in the first place (i.e. kill all the humans).
Let's just pretend for a minute that most of what Raditz told Goku isn't full of plot holes and contradictions. So Raditz is also a liar. He talks about how the saiyans conquer and sell planets, which is bullshit. He could have simply told the truth "we are grunts in Freeza's army and we do what he tells us to do because he will kill us if we refuse to obey him". If Raditz told the truth, instead of bragging about how evil the saiyans are, maybe Goku would have asked him to stop working for Freeza and join them.

Raditz is basically the main reason why Goku hates his own people and why he probably thinks that his own parents were bad people too (even though in DB Minus they weren't).

If AT decides to bring Gine back to life in the next DBZ movie for the next SSJ God ritual we can already see how Goku will react when he meets his mom. He will assume that she was a villain like all the other saiyans and will want nothing to do with her.

[nhienphan2808]

I wouldn't say Vegeta was the MOST evil, because his "evil" deeds were just killing, and even after that the Dragon Ball can revive dead people. There are more evil deeds, that Vegeta didn't once commit but guys like Piccolo and Frieza did. The bad things he did outside of killing are just bad thingss, and they are understandable in the battlefield for a war-worn man like him.

But he was PURE evil for sure. Saiyans were evil but they are all raised that way in their society. Frieza and his family were evil, but they are too raised that way in their society. Cell and the Androids are created to be evil, not born, and someone taught them to be evil, to their master and their own bunch, they are "good". Buu and his masters were evil, but they as well, are influenced by an evil society to be evil. Doctor Gero loved his son, the Androids and the Ginyu Force even had "good" relationship with each other. All the villains are like that : They are bad for one side - and good for their own side. The immoral and bad society they were in are to blame. But Vegeta is a seperated individual, a lone creature that consciously and pridefully disconnects himself from society, takes real enormous pride in being evil, then gets his pride wounded because he is put down by one guy of greater evil than him (frieza, then Androids, then Cell, then Babidi) Kid Buu is said to be pure evil, but it apeared that he was not even capable of doing good things. Vegeta is a guy who was entirely capable of "good". but chose evil over it and repeatedly denied himself any "good". Consciousness is scarier that way. All due to pride. Thanks to his great pride, he was beyond every villain in DBZ, even the so-called pure evil Kid Buu, when it breaks down to being a self-centered kind of evil bastard, as someone said it here.

[ABED]

Oh, so caring for his own family makes Vegeta a good guy, while the rest of the world can go fuck itself and die as far as he's concerned. Gotcha. I mean, surely the court would dismiss the charges of a mass murder commited hours ago once Vegeta tells them he cares for his family.
Don't know where you live, but Vegeta would be considered very evil here

Exactly. Just a few moments ago, he sold his soul to Babidi to fight (KILL) Goku and kill whomever gets in his way. He did kill hundreds of people just then and didn't care if Buu was resurrected and destroy the Earth (AND HIS OWN FAMILY), just so he could kill Goku. Don't tell me he got better as he met Bulma since him turning over his soul to Babidi clearly shows it doesn't. For god sakes, his Final Flash would have blown the Earth up if he didn't deflect it, and the only reason he did that was to save himself. He cared not for his son and Krillin who were standing right there if they were caught in the blast.

Also, it took him a good beatdown from Buu to realize he was wrong about putting his family in danger. Nothing suggests, howver, that he even felt bad about killing those people at the stadium! He had no remorse for his actions towards anybody there. That is sociopathic behaviour. Sure, he changed his mind about Trunks and Bulma (or did he really?). He wanted to give them the best life possible, and that would be without him or Buu. But does that make him a good person or even a good parent? Hell no. He is criminal in everything he does all the way up to the end of the series, even assaulting and hospitalizing another competitor in the tournament with an uncalled for sucker punch. He isn't a good dude, and in a way, he reminds me of Lunch in her blond form. A sociopathic (possibly even psychopathic) criminal.

It is possible that Freeza is the most evil though. I agree. But I find Freeza is less personal in why he does what he does, where Vegeta does things on a personal level. It's like murder with a gun versus murder with a knife where Freeza is the gun user and Vegeta has the knife. What is more evil to you? It's debatable.

Again, you won't get an argument from me that Vegeta isn't an absolutely horrible human being. However, the title of the thread is "the most evil", and Vegeta has done enough good things, and a number of them for the right reasons that I wouldn't qualify him as the most evil.

I don't know if this is right, but it's my understanding that the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath is a sociopath believes what they are doing is moral, whereas psychopaths simply lack any remorse. I believe Vegeta to the former, since he doesn't justify his murders on moral grounds.

[hleV]

Any evidence that Vegeta is a bad guy after he was said to finally be a good guy, and not just your own desire to have him labelled as such?

The fact that Vegeta was still going to hell after making that self sacrifice and not doing much else to add to his status of a good guy (in general sense) later on is my evidence.

I never claimed Vegeta wasn't evil, ever, just that he's not the most evil. Please, don't put words in my mouth. Anyone who has read my comments on the matter will tell you that I don't think he's a good guy. He is a mass murderer, I agree, but so is Freeza. I'm arguing that Freeza is the most evil because Vegeta did help save the world.

Well, the sub-discussion we were having was about whether Vegeta's inclusion into Porunga's list of "good guys" makes Vegeta a good guy. Since you specifically quoted me, I had to assume you're emerging into that sub-discussion as well.