The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

[Kid Buu]

Puar can also drive (backcover of DB Single Volume 9).

Chichi gonna be pissed.

[garnetjester]

Well, according to the manga Goku can drive too (during that break before the Cell Games he is seen driving his car with Chichi and Gohan in it, before he goes off to yell at Cell for killing people or something (ch. 392)), but that doesn't detract from the fact that he's a jobless leech

[Kid Buu]

Oh right.

Well, Puar went to school while Goku never did. Remember, that's how Puar met Oolong?

[garnetjester]

Wow, you're right. Puar is better husband material than Goku. Poor Chichi.

[Kid Buu]

To be fair, she should have known what she was getting into when he told her he thought marriage was food.

Red light right there.

[Basaku]

Toei has nothing to do with an "official canon". I stand by the tradition of the mangaka's creations being the canon

While this is obviously how most poeple think and wish would be the case, the owner of the brand and trademarks can decide what is/isn't canon and I don't believe AT actually holds it. Either Shueisha/Toei or both parts of it.

[Mewzard]

Viacom owns TMNT now, but like hell I'd take their word on what is canon (besides, Peter Laird retained the rights to produce up to 18 issues of TMNT a year under Mirage as part of the deal in selling the rights).

When it comes to long time creator run/owned series like these, the creator's opinions matter.

If Toriyama had no stake in his creation anymore, then Shueisha'd probably find another writer to continue the cash cow that they had (we know they wanted Toriyama to keep going).

When the creators of Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya left Shueisha (Kurumada still comes back on occasion, but he wasn't trying Saint Seiya with them again after they cancelled it last time), they were still able to make sequels to their old work at rival companies, which means they must own full rights to manga works of their series, otherwise, Shueisha would never allow it.

Shueisha, that said, likely has the rights to reprint the material (either retained rights, or rights the creators felt unnecessary to take since it's old material and they would still make money).

[Basaku]

Then make AT's vision canon and produce anime/movies/OVAs/manga spin-offs that fit into it. That's not the case with DB right now, we go back & forth, GT is big part of Heores and then basically disregarded by AT, DBO is new GT oops no one admits it exists, Episode of Bardock? nope DB minus. It's a mess that hurts the franchise and even the creator himself has issues fitting into his own canon and staying away from Lucasing the original manga because he made a new story 1x years later. At this point everyone expects each new DB material to be contradictonary, full of plotholes, happen at random point in timeline, one-shot and not really important 'cause "there's no canon, AT doesn't remember, will get replaced 2 years leater by something else probably".

Doesn't exactly scream a series with a clear direction, even TNMT look like positive example here.

[Mewzard]

TMNT already has the IDW Comic, the Nickelodeon Cartoon, and the Platinum Dunes film ongoing right now (with many more series ended), all contradictory to one another, and not counting when Peter Laird does more issues of the Mirage Comic.

Even the Archie Comic based on the Fred Wolf Cartoon of TMNT is contradictory to it. Not a single adaptation (that's not a direct sequel) avoids contradicting the others.

Jump anime contradict Jump manga all the time. So many filler creations of Saint Seiya's anime directly contradict the manga. Fist of the North Star had moments like when the anime Kenshiro killed an evil old woman no problem, only for manga Kenshiro to refuse to fight women.

Not a jump example, but look at Fullmetal Alchemist, the original anime deviated so much from the original that it had to create an original ending that happened before the manga ended. It was only when Brotherhood was made that we got a more accurate manga adaptation.

Almost every adaptation of a source material contradicts that source material in some way or another.

[Basaku]

But these are consistient within themselves as was DB up until few years. Now we have everything mixed up. Everyone understands the purpouse and 'logic' of Dragon Ball SD as a separate product, it's clear. Try to tell me what's Toriyama's canon. Or the separate Toei canon. And no, you can't. You have AT's input in EOB and DB Minus. You have Dragon Ball Online, no one can guess whether AT thinks its canon or not. Toei stated BOG to be 'official' part of the story. Which story? Manga, anime?

[Mewzard]

Toriyama was heavily involved and has referenced to it in his work, so it must be canon to the manga, and Toei says it's an official part of the story, meaning it's canon to their work as well. Both sides worked on it and seem to be happy with it.

Also, outside of the uncertainty of DB Online and EoB, Toriyama's canon is clear. The original manga, YSGAFR, BOG, and Jaco the Galactic Patrolman (with DB Minus) are at least clearly in his mind. With the Galactic Patrolman stuff, it's likely those manga he did with that other artist involving them would be canon as well, insofar as being connected to that organization.

As for Toei? I would assume whatever Toei worked on (and YSGAFR due to the reference to Tarble in BOG) would be their canon. Though, given how contradictory movie and regular episode events tend to be, that's up to the individual I suppose.

[Hellspawn28]

With manga adaptions, if the manga comes first then it's view as canon unless stated other wises. TMNT is an American franchise, comic book canons are very different then what anime and manga have when it comes to their creators. When the original creators pass away or move on then the company runs the comic book franchise on their own. It's the same with Japanese TV series like Ultraman and Kamen Rider when the companies took control of those franchises when their creator pass away.

[Kid Buu]

Wow, you're right. Puar is better husband material than Goku. Poor Chichi.

Speaking of Toriyama and Chichi, look what I just found.

Who do you prefer: Bulma or Chi-Chi?
Toriyama:
To be honest, I’m really not fond of Chi-Chi as a character. (laughs) In the middle of the comic, I started to think, “I don’t want to draw her anymore,” and, sort of as a way of spiting myself, I decided, “you’ll have to draw her if she gets married to Goku, so marry them off!” So, I drew her as a kind of punishment. (laughs)

Nakatsuru:
So that was your reason behind it! (laughs)

Toriyama:
The women I draw all have the same sort of personality. I can’t draw gentle girls; I only know how to draw ones who are strong-willed.

Guess he doesn't like Chichi after all.

[alakazam^]

Oh boy, so much to comment on...

About the number of Kaioushin:

If Toriyama meant three of each Kaioushin, remember that the two alive right now are both East. It wouldn't really explain where the others are, but whatever, it's also possible they won't be replaced because they technically still exist inside of Boo (not counting the ones that were killed). Also, there were five Kaioushin but we don't know for how long was Boo rampaging after being summoned. Besides filler, are we sure East Kaioushin was around when all the other four were alive (he only describes two of them)?

About the origin of Boo:

I also liked the manga explanation more because having him being a magical being (and not his own owner) is really interesting. Having said that, I tend to jump on the "Word of God" bandwagon so, if Toriyama says he always existed, then he always existed. It doesn't contradict anything because, for all we know, Boo was hybernating when Bibidi forced him out of his sleep and the East Kaioushin was first aware of him, thus mistaking Boo for Bibidi's creation.

About the Elder Kaioushin:

"He was freaked out by how fearsome I am. Yep, sure wa~~~as.” Doesn't this strikes you as major BS? Obviously Beers didn't exist in Toriyama's mind back then but from the way EK acted when he first appeared, we can see he's full of himself. So, Kaioushins and Beers were in a meeting, EK probably was being obnoxious about his magical powers and Beers, not being proper to destroy them and the planet, sealed him. No contradiction.

About Red and Dr. Gero:

Gero was one of the founding members of the Red Ribbon. Red was still the leader, just like Gero, but the scientist was obviously more interested in building weapons and robots.

Also, #16 being modeled after Gero's son doesn't mean #16 was meant to be his replacement, he was just inspired by the son and struck a few emotional cords with Gero. Gero isn't any more emotional and a good guy than how he was portrayed in the manga.

About enemies becoming "gooder":

#17 was a deliquent, he wasn't bad per se and Bardock didn't even exist outside two panels and a couple of mentions.

About SSJG, SSJ levels and end of manga:

The way I interpreted it: Goku got the God power-up -> said power-up reached its time limit and Goku reverted to base -> Goku had grasped how to achieve that level of power so he maintained it BUT got weaker -> Goku somewhat noticed he wasn't faring as well as he did previously and unconsciously turned Super Saiya-jin and went back to God's power.

To tie this all up: even him "absorbing" God's power doesn't mean he is always at that level otherwise he wouldn't be noted as having gotten slightly weaker. This is why he needs SSJ, to access all of God's power (this ties with Gohan seemingly needing to "activate" Ultimate and Toriyama talking about SSJ form being enough, which wouldn't make sense if Goku in base already had God's power). Boo was still a great enemy, one which Goku hadn't even fought at an equal or superior level (SSJ3 doesn't count because he couldn't maintain the form for too long), so he was still excited with the idea of fighting Oob. In the tournament he didn't use full power or turned SSJ so there's no contradiction here as well.

And you guys are a little too obsessed with Superman, aren't you? Is it an American thing?

And Is it just me or does anyone else think these answers aren't 100% Toriyama? I mean, I'm sure he did gave those answers but I wonder if he was guided in the direction Jump wanted to go. I think it's strange that Toriyama contradicts some facts about the Shinjin when, apparently, he remembers an answer he previously gave about Kuririn and #18 and also what the manga says about Boo's origin. I also think is strange that they don't seem to have Toriyama's recent tidbits with them as reference material. Why even meet the guy to just ask twelve questions, having on-the-fly answers and call it a day?

"Toriyama-san, could you tell us more about Majin Boo's creation? The manga says he was created by Bibidi but that seems just like Cell. What do you think of giving him another origin? Also, #17 looked like a hunter in the end of the manga, what was that all about?"

[Low Tone G]

To tie this all up: even him "absorbing" God's power doesn't mean he is always at that level otherwise he wouldn't be noted as having gotten slightly weaker. This is why he needs SSJ, to access all of God's power (this ties with Gohan seemingly needing to "activate" Ultimate and Toriyama talking about SSJ form being enough, which wouldn't make sense if Goku in base already had God's power). Boo was still a great enemy, one which Goku hadn't even fought at an equal or superior level (SSJ3 doesn't count because he couldn't maintain the form for too long), so he was still excited with the idea of fighting Oob. In the tournament he didn't use full power or turned SSJ so there's no contradiction here as well.

I don't think Goku need to go SSJ to access SSJ God power after absorbing it. Goku was able to withstand against Beerus' attacks when he was way closer to his full power than he was against any other heroes. As going SSJ for Goku wasn't anything else just a power up to a higher level, closer to SSJ God's full power, before he used his 80%. Goku thought he must use his full power to prevent Beerus to destroy everything, but he surely believed that he was still SSJ God then.

[kuartus4]

About the number of Kaioushin:

If Toriyama meant three of each Kaioushin, remember that the two alive right now are both East. It wouldn't really explain where the others are, but whatever, it's also possible they won't be replaced because they technically still exist inside of Boo (not counting the ones that were killed). Also, there were five Kaioushin but we don't know for how long was Boo rampaging after being summoned. Besides filler, are we sure East Kaioushin was around when all the other four were alive (he only describes two of them)?

I just take AT's comment to mean that there are 3 kaioshin in the present.He does say that there are 3 of them, and 2 of them are on duty now. It doesn't necessarily mean that there weren't more in the past. One of them is still a fruit pit in the ground(imo) which will grow up like a plant into a kaioshin if either Kibitoshin or Elder Kai die accidentally. Which could go on to explain why the ones that died didn't get replaced. AT said if one of them dies by accident then his replacement will grow up, but the ones that died were killed intentionally and the other one died because he gave his life away on purpose.

[Mewzard]

With manga adaptions, if the manga comes first then it's view as canon unless stated other wises. TMNT is an American franchise, comic book canons are very different then what anime and manga have when it comes to their creators. When the original creators pass away or move on then the company runs the comic book franchise on their own. It's the same with Japanese TV series like Ultraman and Kamen Rider when the companies took control of those franchises when their creator pass away.

But TMNT was creator-owned for 25 years. Eastman and Laird started their own company (company being just them) to print their comic and sell it back in 1984. Eastman sold his half to Laird at some point, and Laird eventually did sell the property to Viacom in 2009. But yeah, they ran their own comic for some time (and Peter Laird contractually required he be allowed up to 18 issues a year to continue the Mirage Comics as he sees fit, so I'd argue he still has say in that regard).

And you guys are a little too obsessed with Superman, aren't you? Is it an American thing?"

You don't maintain high popularity from 1938 to now, lead the way in an entire medium being associated with your genre, and become a decades long cultural icon without some love.

And while he might not be as popular in the rest of the world as in the US, Superman has had a decent sized international presence (cartoons, movies, etc).

So, it's not just an American thing, no more than Goku is just a Japanese thing (Goku's origin always came off as a slight variation on Superman's origin anyways, and Toriyama did a Superman parody in Dr. Slump, so he does know the character *even Osamu Tezuka, the God of Manga, was a Superman fan, and made honorary chairman of the Superman Fan Club in Japan*).

But yeah, Toriyama's little tidbits of information I do find facinating. It still amuses me that he seems more into Dragon Ball now than he had in decades. Guess we only miss what we love when we're truly gone from it.

[Bullza]

It's true that this whole canon issue is a complete mess. They really need to do a fresh slate of what's canon and what isn't, get out a brand new guide book with all this information and have Toriyama decide exactly what is and isn't canon.

As far as I'm concerned Dragon Ball Minus, Jaco, Dragon Ball, the JSAT special, Battle of Gods and these tidbits are all that's canon.

They need to stop making all this pointless stuff like EOB and there needs to be some sort of team who keeps track of it all and Toriyama needs to run things by them first to see if it fits because half the time he just like he's made these things up on the spot.

[soulnova]

I wonder if AT will ever say what's up with Tenshinhan and Chaoz later on too. xD

He already has:

Kendō Kobayashi: Please tell us about the lives of the characters after [the end of the series]. (Particularly Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chiaotzu.)

Akira Toriyama: First, a word of warning: I am a considerably arbitrary creator, so I’ve imagined what happens after for these three for the first time just now. The possibility that I have made mistakes about the characters’ backgrounds is great. Proceed with caution.

Yamcha’s Epilogue:
Like you, KenKoba1, he has the dilemma of loving women but not being good around them, so he is still wandering blindly in search of the ideal partner he won’t be nervous around. He’s even worked in a host club, but because of his nervousness, it didn’t go well and he was fired. His livelihood is mainly working together with Pu’er as a freelance bodyguard, but he occasionally goes to Tenshinhan’s to help with the farm, as well.

Tenshinhan’s Epilogue:
Stoic Tenshinhan mainly does farming in addition to his training. He can split into multiple bodies and grow extra arms, so harvesting the crops goes quickly. He was found by Lunch, who fell in love with him at first sight and had been constantly pursuing his whereabouts, and even reluctantly lived together with her; but she wasn’t cut out for farming, and Tenshinhan has no interest in romance, so she left after just a few days. After that, it seems Lunch apparently stops in from time to time.

Chiaotzu’s Epilogue:
Naturally, he helps out with farming together with Tenshinhan, but his work utilizing his telekinetic powers has a reputation for its efficiency, and he is hired at an expensive rate by farmers nearby, so he apparently has a surprisingly large amount of money saved away.

hahaha thanks!! I didn't know this! Poor Launch... well, I guess it's good she stops in "from time to time".


Yeah, farm work is pretty much one of the few things I can see them doing. I read a fanfic once where Goku gets a job as a stunt double for movies... all the directors want him because it doesn't matter what they throw at him without worrying about safety. xD I believe Yamucha would be better suited for this kind of thing, actually.

Ok, then I'll refrase that question.... Why Chiaotzu never grows or gets old!? xD (wait... Has he answered that one? )

[Basaku]

Also, outside of the uncertainty of DB Online and EoB

[...]

given how contradictory movie and regular episode events tend to be, that's up to the individual I suppose.

That's the point. On one side you're trying to portray it how everything is clear and then admit yourself how contradictory a lot of recent stuff is and how some of it really is up in the air regarding its canonical status, like DB Online which is a VERY significant material lore-wise.