Why didn't Akira Toriyama just introduce Gogeta instead?

[DieHard]

According to the daizenshuu,goten and Trunks should be more or less the same power level of gohan without rage boost, so there shouldn't be a huge gap beetween the them and goku and vegeta.After their training in the ROSAT they should be very close.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

According to the daizenshuu,goten and Trunks should be more or less the same power level of gohan without rage boost, so there shouldn't be a huge gap beetween the them and goku and vegeta.After their training in the ROSAT they should be very close.

Gohan says in the manga that the kids will surpass him soon if he keeps skipping his training, meaning that he is stronger than them. Daizenshuu states that Goten is exactly as strong as Gohan, which would make Trunks a little stronger than Gohan. So obviously, the statement is wrong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Just focus on this a little:

Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

Let that sink in.

That's the line that implies that Fusion is a multiplier.

Even if Goku/Vegeta are only 2x stronger than the kids (doubtful; the gap should be greater),

It's implied that it's actually smaller, not greater.

the resulting difference in the respective fusions would be huge.

How so?

I place very little relevance in the whole ROSAT incident. First, you are lead to believe that you must transform before you fuse. In the ROSAT, this was not the case. So anything Piccolo believed to be true is thrown out the window the moment Toriyama decided Gotenks can transform.

The kids had to transform before merging because they hadn't trained yet. After they trained as Gotenks, Gotenks managed to transform on his own from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 3, and even invented new techniques.

[Gogeta8001]

Regardless if Fusion is a multiplier or not, I don't see any reason why Gogeta should get a godly boost where as Gotenks gets a minimal boost.

As for Gotenks's power, Trunks feels that a Base Fusion between the two of them can stall Majin Buu (with the last Buu they sensed being Initial Super Buu). That combined with Piccolo's statement in the RoSaT shows that...

Base Gotenks (Post RoSaT) ~ Initial Super Buu

[miguelnuva1]

Gogeta is getting a bigger boost in the outcome because Goku and Vegeta are adding more to the fusion not because Gogeta has a bigger fusion boost then Gotenks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gogeta is getting a bigger boost in the outcome because Goku and Vegeta are adding more to the fusion not because Gogeta has a bigger fusion boost then Gotenks.

That doesn't make sense mathematically.

[sekzee]

Gogeta is getting a bigger boost in the outcome because Goku and Vegeta are adding more to the fusion not because Gogeta has a bigger fusion boost then Gotenks.

That doesn't make sense mathematically.

It doesn't have to. Toriyama was bad at math.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gogeta is getting a bigger boost in the outcome because Goku and Vegeta are adding more to the fusion not because Gogeta has a bigger fusion boost then Gotenks.

That doesn't make sense mathematically.

It doesn't have to. Toriyama was bad at math.

Toriyama never used math to explain anything. And this is basic math BTW.

He did, however, showed us that SS Goten & Trunks weren't extremely far from SS Gohan & Vegeta, who weren't extremely far from SS Goku. So, Gotenks & Gogeta shouldn't be very far from each other when they are in the same form, while base Vegetto was implied to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks, even Gotenks Boo.

[miguelnuva1]

Gogeta is getting a bigger boost in the outcome because Goku and Vegeta are adding more to the fusion not because Gogeta has a bigger fusion boost then Gotenks.

That doesn't make sense mathematically.

It doesn't have to. Toriyama was bad at math.

Toriyama never used math to explain anything. And this is basic math BTW.

He did, however, showed us that SS Goten & Trunks weren't extremely far from SS Gohan & Vegeta, who weren't extremely far from SS Goku. So, Gotenks & Gogeta shouldn't be very far from each other when they are in the same form, while base Vegetto was implied to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks, even Gotenks Boo.[/quote]

Base Vegito can be around SSJ Gotenks for all we know. Buuhan is at most 3x SSJ3 Gotenks who in turn would be 4x SSJ Gotenks, Vegito has a 50x boost to work with.

Also Gotenks increased his power at least 51x training in the ROSAT while Goten and Trunks maid gains that Piccolo didn't even notice. If Gotenks can increase like that it leads me to believe Gogeta is a whole lot stronger than Gotenks.

[Rocketman]

Gogeta is getting a bigger boost in the outcome because Goku and Vegeta are adding more to the fusion not because Gogeta has a bigger fusion boost then Gotenks.

That doesn't make sense mathematically.

So?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Base Vegito can be around SSJ Gotenks for all we know. Buuhan is at most 3x SSJ3 Gotenks who in turn would be 4x SSJ Gotenks, Vegito has a 50x boost to work with.

Rou Kaioshin said that if Goku & Gohan were to merged with the Potara, they wouldn't need to turn Super Saiyan to beat Gotenks Boo, because the Potara are that extreme. He isn't talking about Ultimate, because if he did, then they wouldn't have to turn Super Saiyan because it would be useless, or they wouldn't be able to turn Super Saiyan at all, or they would be able to beat Boo because Gohan is that strong already, not because of the Potara. Rou Kaioshin then reacted to Vegetto being so strong because Goku & Vegeta were also rivals, implying that Vegetto is stronger than the result from Goku & Gohan would have been. So, base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo.

BTW, SS3 Gotenks is x8 SS Gotenks.

Also Gotenks increased his power at least 51x training in the ROSAT while Goten and Trunks maid gains that Piccolo didn't even notice. If Gotenks can increase like that it leads me to believe Gogeta is a whole lot stronger than Gotenks.

The whole "base Gotenks can beat Evil Boo!" was a gag that was proved to be BS seconds later.

Gogeta is getting a bigger boost in the outcome because Goku and Vegeta are adding more to the fusion not because Gogeta has a bigger fusion boost then Gotenks.

That doesn't make sense mathematically.

So?

Seriously? You are inventing a basic math inconsistency for your own convenience?

[sekzee]

Ultimate Gohan = Gohan. It is not a transformation as much as it is a release of his power. It is like when someone gathers their ki to transform. What the heck does that have to do with Goku/Gohan fused and Goku/Vegeta fused and their respective power levels? Nothing indicates base Vegito's placement outside the anime.

[goku the krump dancer]

Trying to apply "simple math" to the fusion equation as well as literally going off the "tens of times" statement would put Gogeta far more powerful than Vegetto.

Potara:

Goku-20 x Vegeta- 20 = 400

Dance:

Goku-20 + Vegeta-20 = 40 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 400 billion and that's probably just base form.

If you don't take "tens of times" to mean "to the tenth power" but instead just by a factor of ten, then Gogeta and Vegetto end up dead even.. Depending on the numbers you give Goku and Vegeta respectively.

Ex: as above lets just say Goku and Vegeta are both twenties. 20 x 20 = 400 for the Potara, now for the dance 20+20 = 40 x 10 = 400....

Ya know, I was gonna write some other stuff but it only makes things more complicated. So for me until something explicitly says other wise then Gogeta and Vegetto are even with Gogeta being a small skip behind as a second gander.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Trying to apply "simple math" to the fusion equation as well as literally going off the "tens of times" statement would put Gogeta far more powerful than Vegetto.

Potara:

Goku-20 x Vegeta- 20 = 400

Dance:

Goku-20 + Vegeta-20 = 40 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 400 billion and that's probably just base form.

If you don't take "tens of times" to mean "to the tenth power" but instead just by a factor of ten, then Gogeta and Vegetto end up dead even.. Depending on the numbers you give Goku and Vegeta respectively.

Ex: as above lets just say Goku and Vegeta are both twenties. 20 x 20 = 400 for the Potara, now for the dance 20+20 = 40 x 10 = 400....

Ya know, I was gonna write some other stuff but it only makes things more complicated. So for me until something explicitly says other wise then Gogeta and Vegetto are even with Gogeta being a small skip behind as a second gander.

Your mistake there is that you use the AxB formula, proving why it's so wrong. And tens of times is "[number]x10".

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Ex: as above lets just say Goku and Vegeta are both twenties. 20 x 20 = 400 for the Potara, now for the dance 20+20 = 40 x 10 = 400....

I'm totally in support of knocking the Goku x Vegeta "formula" as well as the idea that Gogeta isn't as weak as everyone likes to think, but I have to be fair here. You kinda touched on this, but the math is pretty simple when you have low numbers like this. It gets significantly more complicated when they get stronger.

For example, say Goku and Vegeta are the same strength as Goku's base on Namek when he first transforms.

3,000,000 x 3,000,000 = 9,000,000,000,000 and yet (3,000,000 + 3,000,000) x 10 = 60,000,000

Now, in order to match Vegetto, Goku and Vegeta would have to have a x1,500,000 multiplier for the dance...

[Puto]

Just want to mention here that you can't mathematically do BPxBP=BP. You cannot multiply two of the same unit and end up with that same unit. e.g. 2 metres x 2 metres is not 4 metres, it's 4 square metres.

[Hitiro]

Gohan says in the manga that the kids will surpass him soon if he keeps skipping his training, meaning that he is stronger than them. Daizenshuu states that Goten is exactly as strong as Gohan, which would make Trunks a little stronger than Gohan. So obviously, the statement is wrong.

Just curious why you think Kid Trunks can't be stronger than Gohan? He was in the gravity chamber training with his father. As far as I'm aware Gravity training > normal training. Not really unbelievable that Trunks could do better than him when Gohan is doing absolutely nothing.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Ultimate Gohan = Gohan. It is not a transformation as much as it is a release of his power. It is like when someone gathers their ki to transform. What the heck does that have to do with Goku/Gohan fused and Goku/Vegeta fused and their respective power levels? Nothing indicates base Vegito's placement outside the anime.

It is shown in the manga that it's a different state. Gohan's hairstyle slightly changes when he fights, while his hairstyle is his normal base when he is not. Plus, if Gohan couldn't power-down to his normal base, Goku shouldn't be able to use Fusion with Ultimate Gohan, while it's stated that he could. And there is also the fact that Ultimate Gohan can't turn Super Saiyan to get stronger, while Rou Kaioshin said that they won't have to turn into Super Saiyan when merged because the Potara were so strong that they won't need it, not because Gohan's new power-up will give them enough power, and that it renders Super Saiyan useless.

Just curious why you think Kid Trunks can't be stronger than Gohan? He was in the gravity chamber training with his father. As far as I'm aware Gravity training > normal training. Not really unbelievable that Trunks could do better than him when Gohan is doing absolutely nothing.

Gohan was strong enough to block every hit from Goten, and after Goten told him that Trunks is a little stronger, Gohan said that they will surpass him soon, not that they may have already done so. Plus, I think that we would at least have a hint in the manga that Trunks is stronger than Gohan, since Gohan was the main character.

[goku the krump dancer]

Ex: as above lets just say Goku and Vegeta are both twenties. 20 x 20 = 400 for the Potara, now for the dance 20+20 = 40 x 10 = 400....

I'm totally in support of knocking the Goku x Vegeta "formula" as well as the idea that Gogeta isn't as weak as everyone likes to think, but I have to be fair here. You kinda touched on this, but the math is pretty simple when you have low numbers like this. It gets significantly more complicated when they get stronger.

For example, say Goku and Vegeta are the same strength as Goku's base on Namek when he first transforms.

3,000,000 x 3,000,000 = 9,000,000,000,000 and yet (3,000,000 + 3,000,000) x 10 = 60,000,000

Now, in order to match Vegetto, Goku and Vegeta would have to have a x1,500,000 multiplier for the dance...

I know, that's why I said what I said at the end of my post. I think Miguelnuva's explanation that Goku and Vegeta just bring more to the table is simple enough and I like it.

@ DBZGTKOSDH

I feel like the only thing they could have been talking about is a Goku battle power times Vegeta's. I mean during that point in the story that was the most important thing. Let Goku find a suitable fusion partner who could create a powerful result. Which is why he considered Tenshinhan over Mark, because he not only had a understanding of martial arts but his BP is obviously much higher.

[Gogeta8001]

Yeah, still not buying into the whole Goku X Vegeta thing.

Ever wondered why Vegito decided to go SSJ ASAP against Buuhan? I don't think he did that just to be fancy.