Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?

[thatdbzguy]

A common flaw brought up about DBZ is how the Dragon Balls pretty much undo every single thing that was killed/destroyed by a villain, causing there to be no real sense of loss or tragedy.

Do you think DBZ needed more actual loss, or would you prefer it didn't?

[Cetra]

Dragon Ball is an everything can happen story and it is good that way. I always don't like it when something is totally gone that I did like. And some things in Dragon Ball also did, thought not that way but just because it was no longer used and not killed or anything. At least most of the time. My greatest "loss" of Dragon Ball is it ending. No "loss" in a normal way but the most tragic thing for me about it. A waste of chances.

[Insertclevername]

I think more of a sense of loss would certainly up the series' tension, sure. I do have to commend it for making situations that (albeit temporarily) regain it. The Saiyan and half way through the Cell arcs do a good job as they remove Kami, making the Dragon Balls unusable. So, while Dragon Ball has what is commonly seen as a problem in this respect, it does a fairly good job at working around the rules. In short, not really.

[Kid Buu]

Interestingly, Cell arc has the biggest sense of loss.

Goku stays dead.
#16 & Kami are gone for good.
Trunks is brought back but goes back to his own timeline.

[thatdbzguy]

Interestingly, Cell arc has the biggest sense of loss.

Goku stays dead.
#16 & Kami are gone for good.
Trunks is brought back but goes back to his own timeline.

The only sense of loss I got from the Cell arc was a few brain cells.

[kidglov3s]

I believe that dramatically the show essentially lost all sense of stakes once the Dragonballs were upgraded such that they could bring people back to life unlimited times (as long as it was an unnatural death). If I had been asked to give my input I would have said that's a direction we shouldn't go in. I feel like that along with Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta all achieving Super Saiya-jin without much effort or circumstance significantly hampered my interest in events moving forward.

[Insertclevername]

<Eh, that was kind of too hostile. Carry on>

[thatdbzguy]

Interestingly, Cell arc has the biggest sense of loss.

Goku stays dead.
#16 & Kami are gone for good.
Trunks is brought back but goes back to his own timeline.

The only sense of loss I got from the Cell arc was a few brain cells.

Are you interested in having serious discussion or are we going to go down this perpetual condemning road again? I participated in this thread, giving it the benefit of doubt and I would like to keep on replying but if it's going to be derailed into negative bashing nonsense, then I'll cease any further thoughts I had on the subject.

Calm down. Just thought I'd make a little joke.

[Ajay]

Yes and no, I guess.

It's perfectly viable to have death in a series where death is mostly superficial but it's important to invest your audience enough that when the death happens, they're emotionally engaged regardless.

With Dragon Ball, it's very easy to look back as someone with knowledge of the entire series and go 'oh, he'll just be back via X and Y plot device' but as a first time viewer, many things like the Namekian balls, the new properties of them in the Buu arc etc are fresh concepts that are supposed to be surprising. In that sense, you do get a strong emotive response as characters die since, at that moment, that death is final.

However, I've always found those twists and turns rather poor and predictable. The more attentive viewers should be expecting something like that - it's Dragon Ball, a kids show based around magical balls that grant wishes. There's likely going to be some kind of mystical power that brings back our friends!

One might argue that less repetitive writing would benefit the series but personally, I've never felt it really mattered. Toriyama does a great job at writing characters and relationships that you, as a viewer, truly care about. Prior to Piccolo's death, you have a great deal of time spent establishing Gohan and Piccolo's relationship. It helps make his death scene all the more emotive; not just because he's dying but also because it's the first time we truly see Piccolo outright spilling his heart to Gohan. Poof! He's gone. Dead. It's a wonderfully tragic moment that's emotionally engaging despite the death being temporary.

Once again, with Vegeta's death on Namek, it's a defining moment for the character. We see him and weep and beg Goku to kill Freeza for the sake of the Saiyans. It doesn't matter that he'll be back eventually, it's a powerful moment regardless.

With almost every death, a character is developed at great length and it's that that makes the moment all the more upsetting. No, not every moment is like that and there could certainly be improvements but as it stands, Toriyama does a pretty good job.

[ABED]

I do think some people who die, probably needed to stay dead, but death can just as easily become a gimmick as bringing people back from the dead. I wish Kuririn didn't die the third time, and that Vegeta stayed dead after Buu's defeat. So I do agree to some extent.

Supernatural makes constant resurrection work for them. Sam and Dean have died a lot, but death would actually be something of a relief to them. Something like that could work for DB and still keep in tone with DB.

[FrogTrigger]

Maybe some more reflection on certain losses imo

Like I think it captured that well kinda with personal losses like Piccolo and Goku realizing he was the monster that killed his grandpa

[ABED]

Limitations on the DB would've helped quite a bit in the later part of the series. That's why I liked the idea of negative energy.

[kei17]

No. The lightheartedness is one of the good things about Toriyama's works. I don't consistently expect heavy or sentimental stories from him. We had it enough in Future Trunks's timeline at least.

[Sin]

No. The lightheartedness is one of the good things about Toriyama's works. I don't consistently expect heavy or sentimental stories from him. We had it enough in Future Trunks's timeline at least.

I agree, Future Trunks' timeline was great in that it pretty much gave us a taste of what most people want to see explored with shows like DBZ where a happy ending is expected, a version of the series where the good guys lose and the bad guys win.

I think that even with the Dragon Balls around there was still sometimes a sense of hopelessness, for instance when Vegeta was threatened with non-existence, or when Freeza had survived Goku's genki-dama. Saying that however, how can a show with an afterlife ever have a sense of loss? Especially when the afterlife in DB isn't a terrible place at all. The only real option for loss IS non-existence, and perhaps this could've been explored more emotionally with #16's death or Vegeta's risk when fighting Boo, however this is explained by Akira Toriyama's writing style and the general mood of the series, it likely would've been out of place for Toriyama to explore it in such a depth.

[theoriginalbilis]

I think Toriyama managed to keep a good balance between comedy and drama overall.

The optimistic tone of the series is one of the biggest charms of Dragon Ball.

Even when it got super-serious, it never became bleak. Which it never needed to...

Anyone who wants a super-hardcore/"the super-serious" DBZ needs to just go watch the countless fanmade Dragon Ball projects on Youtube.

[TheGmGoken]

Not really. Even when theDbs undo anything there's still sense of lost. Look at when Krillin dies at Namek. We didn't know he'll be back. Hell even when Piccolo died on Earth and ALMOST died on Namek there was lost. Cyborg has many senses of loss(which is why its the second best arc of franchise) and Cell arc have some as Kid Buu stated. Only arc that didn't have the sense of loss feel is BOO arc. Every other arc has it.

[Vijay]

Its not a flaw. Blessing in disguise actually.

As someone mentioned, Cell Saga has more impactful losses.

1. Goku's death (though seem heroic, extremely painful)
2. 16 & Kami-sama's complete wipe-out from DBZ franchise.
3. Future Trunks (easily coolest character) returned his TL (another sorrow era)

DragonBall in general is frolic fun-filled anime. Has its share of dark moments but Toriyama has managed very-well balance. In fact, I think Anime in general is supposedly a form of entertainment, not to be taken seriously to the point crying our hearts out. DBZ however trolls death itself, which is badass.

[Fizzer]

After Goku died in the Cell arc and was reduced to angel waving goodbye in the closing credits of the next arc, that was great. I like Goku, but I really appreciated the happy-sad emotional impact of that. I do think we need more loss, as long as there's always a silver lining (such as the character who died not really minding it) to make sure it stays in line with the tone of Dragon Ball.

Sticking to the one-revival-by-DBs rule would be a good way to do it, if some events were switched around to make it work. For example, it would have to be Gohan, rather than Kuririn, who dies on Namek, as Kuririn can no longer be wished back at that point and still has a role to play in the next arc. If Ten and Chaozu stayed dead after being killed by Nappa (Ten volunteering to stay dead of his own free will, Chaozu being happy as long as he's with Ten), it would have been much better than just letting them be completely sidelined. That's the other plus point of death - characters don't have to become irrelevant in such an unsatisfying way, but can instead go out with a bang.

In order to make death actually matter even when it does happen, the afterlife (as in where the dead ultimately end up, not Snake Road etc) should be kept as mysterious as possible, while still being implied to be a positive thing for good guys.

[Mr.Judge]

Akira Toriyama apparently doesn't like much Dark tone in his manga, so he tries to relieve the tension by introducing random gag/fun moments in an otherwise serious scenarios.

Also DB is no Berserk. DB world is kinda of a Utopia world.

Onto the Question of in the OP, The no-apparent sense of Loss is due to the Dragons Balls ,which also what allows Goku to stay sane as a character otherwise Goku would go on a killing-spree like he went during the red-ribbon arc/King Piccolo arc changing DB into Asura's Wrath.

the Original Script for BOG mentioned something along the lines of destruction of Earth and thereby Dragon Balls. But the Earthquake in Japan had its implications and changes to script had to be made.

Exploring Ideas going further,a what-if Scenario on How Goku handles a situation where he faces a significant loss and Dragon Balls stop existing, would make for a good Movie/OVA, fitting in some alternate Time-Line under different screen-writer considering Akira Toriyama doesn't like serious and dark tone.

. If Ten and Chaozu stayed dead after being killed by Nappa (Ten volunteering to stay dead of his own free will, Chaozu being happy as long as he's with Ten), it would have been much better than just letting them be completely sidelined. That's the other plus point of death - characters don't have to become irrelevant in such an unsatisfying way, but can instead go out with a bang.

Yajirobe, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha - These 4 characters should have been more fleshed out going forward by giving them significant roles in the after-life instead of turning them into mere fodder . The focus towards the end entirely changes to Saiyans while human particularly are sidelined to the point of irrelevance. It is the downside of having a big cast having Similar Powers helmed by only a single Writer/Mangaka trying to fit them together in a story spanning over few chapters.
One Piece particularly and Naruto handles a big cast pretty well by giving each character different and varied skill/power set.

[UltraPerfectCellZ]

Interestingly, Cell arc has the biggest sense of loss.

Goku stays dead.
#16 & Kami are gone for good.
Trunks is brought back but goes back to his own timeline.

The only sense of loss I got from the Cell arc was a few brain cells.

I'll be honest, I laughed my ass of reading this
Back on topic, When watching the show for the first time I was a lot more hooked in and felt there was a much greater sense of loss when there really wasn't. When Piccolo Daimao killed Shenlong I thought that was it, then when Piccolo/Kami died I also thought that 'shit was getting real.' In hindsight there were always alternatives present, but when first experiencing it (I was quite young at the time) it had enough suspense and a faux sense of loss which kept me intrigued enough to keep watching.