Tenshinhan, Chaozu, and Yamcha got some cool stuff to do in the Namek filler such as their battle with Piccolo and the Ginyu Force. It's kind of why I enjoy it, because at least something actually comes out of their training.Yajirobe, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha - These 4 characters should have been more fleshed out going forward by giving them significant roles in the after-life instead of turning them into mere fodder . The focus towards the end entirely changes to Saiyans while human particularly are sidelined to the point of irrelevance. It is the downside of having a big cast having Similar Powers helmed by only a single Writer/Mangaka trying to fit them together in a story spanning over few chapters.
One Piece particularly and Naruto handles a big cast pretty well by giving each character different and varied skill/power set.
Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
The underlying question of this thread is what happens when you don't start from the beginning; you get a false sense of what series is supposed to be.
Keen Observation of Dragon Ball Z Movie 4's Climax wrote:Slug shits to see the genki
- Valerius Dover
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1926
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
- Location: Somewhere
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Ok, why do people keep saying 16 is gone forever? There's no indication of that at all, it would seem. It was stated in supplementary material that he lives in nature now. Just because we don't see him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. 
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover
The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover
The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Well, it definitely did!
i mean, scenes like Piccolo's death was pretty dramatic. so when we already know he's gonna be revived using the Dragon Balls, doesn't that kind of kill the whole point of the dramatic scene ? definitely one of DBZ flaws!
i mean, scenes like Piccolo's death was pretty dramatic. so when we already know he's gonna be revived using the Dragon Balls, doesn't that kind of kill the whole point of the dramatic scene ? definitely one of DBZ flaws!
- Gyt Kaliba
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8869
- Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:38 am
- Location: Arkansas
- Contact:
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
A good point that I'd have to agree with about 75% (and this is coming from someone that did start with DBZ, the dub no less, first).B wrote:The underlying question of this thread is what happens when you don't start from the beginning; you get a false sense of what series is supposed to be.
That said though...the 'Z' era really does come off drastically different in a lot of ways from the earlier material, even if you watch from the beginning, so a certain 'sense of loss' probably would have helped things come off a little better in retrospect. Yet again though, I have to turn things around though, on that note of 'retrospection'. A lot of the things that seem to have no weight at all are only that way, I feel, because we've known how the story ends for years now. A lot of things probably weren't so cut and dry when they first happened though.
- When Bora is killed by Taopaipai, Goku pretty much immediately decides they'll use the Dragon Balls to bring him back. We know this will work, but at the time it was the first time such a thing had been attempted. For all we as readers/viewers, and the characters in-universe, would have known with that as the latest chapter/episode, it would have been an impossible feat.
- When Kuririn, Roshi, and Chaozu are all killed, Shen Long is also taken out of the picture in the same arc. We know looking back how that's going to work out, but at the time anyone could have thought that the Dragon Balls were gone for good, as were Goku's friends.
- Goku's death against Raditz...that one pretty much does come with a sense of 'this isn't permanent'. He's the main character for crying out loud! But, seeing the main character we've seen do so much finally die, even if only temporarily, is sufficiently shocking enough as is.
- When Yamcha, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Kami bite the dust, for all we know that could be for good as well. The characters don't know at first if they can get to Namek. They don't know if the Namekians will actually have Dragon Balls or let them use them at all. Then the whole ordeal with Freeza and his troops (plus Vegeta) comes up, and it's only at the very end (after Kuririn has died again too) that anyone is brought back. That's an entire arc where, anyone following along at the time when this was the new material, would have been unsure if we were ever going to really see certain people again.
- Goku's death in the Cell Games is traumatic enough on it's own since it really does become permanent. ...Well, temporarily.
- All of the deaths in the Boo arc come at the price of a villain that nobody seems capable of stopping at the time, and then we get a mood shift from Vegito completely trouncing Boo, to Boo blowing up the entire planet!. The struggle with Boo is so all over the place, goes to heights of peril that we hadn't yet seen in the series, that there's a sufficient amount of wondering if things are going to be all right as it is.
So yeah, if you sit back and look at a lot of those moments that we, as fans twenty years after the series has been over, chalk up as 'lacking tension', they probably had a lot more tension to them back in the day when everybody and their grandmother didn't know how things ultimately played out.
AniManga Travelogue - Currently Reviewing: Dragon Ball (Z)
Twitter
Switch Friend Code: SW-0745-6427-7791 (let's play some Dragon Ball: The Breakers!)
Switch Friend Code: SW-0745-6427-7791 (let's play some Dragon Ball: The Breakers!)
- SingleFringe&Sparks
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1642
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
- Location: Mt. Paozu/East District
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Rarely do I agree with you, but on this I do. The Original Bardock special and History of Trunks were the only subjects in the franchise where I felt there was actually an instilled sense of failure and hopelessness because of how thin the situations were. In both cases there were no fallbacks. When Gohan and Bardock were killed and beaten up, they retained it making their character development solid and coherent. Bardock was doomed to reap his karma but died trying to change it but never came back.thatdbzguy wrote:A common flaw brought up about DBZ is how the Dragon Balls pretty much undo every single thing that was killed/destroyed by a villain, causing there to be no real sense of loss or tragedy.
Do you think DBZ needed more actual loss, or would you prefer it didn't?
Future Trunks is the only character that honestly comprehends the idea that loss means loss. Though probably because of how often the same weak characters die over and over again like fodder is what makes the loss feel just like limbo for them. Even Goku dying exclusing from Trunk's time meant nothing, though I give him credit as he didnt want to come back but is infinitely forced to due to how incompetent his friends are without him.
I felt main DBZ didnt make anything they did wrong a real consiquence they had to think about. Not widly at least.
For me whenever Piccolo died, my eyes rolled - there was no real feeling of something missing from his "deaths" and When Freeza killed Krillin, I felt nothing near what Goku did and actually questioned it. Nothing was very impactful for me because Krillin was a) insignificant in Z and b) has died before. I couldnt see the big deal and still today thought it was weak for Goku to scream over it. I always thought it should have been Gohan killed by Freeza, krillin had no reason to even be targeted, where as Gohan was a Saiyan and was shown to be a threat to him, if Freeza killed Goku's only son in a bigoted motive to hurt Goku - that would have brought out my sympathy. Not killing someone as measly as Krillin. Who has died before.
- Now when #16 was killed, that actually moved me, because he was morally significant, he was killed very nobally and he was condemed to stay dead because of his artificial circumstances. His death had real meaning from his preformance to his end because he couldn't come back for it.
- When Vegeta killed Nappa I was a little pissed off from how unfair it seemed, I thought he could have been reformed, he was a loss.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
- FortuneSSJ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5939
- Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
I have HunterxHunter for that.
Dragon Ball its a "happy" world. And thats how Toriyama rolls.
The funny thing is that even knowing the character would maybe be revived later I would still get sad with his death.
Because thats how awesome Dragon Ball is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4MDFKwHzf8
Dragon Ball its a "happy" world. And thats how Toriyama rolls.
The funny thing is that even knowing the character would maybe be revived later I would still get sad with his death.
Because thats how awesome Dragon Ball is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4MDFKwHzf8
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.
Favourite old DB Animators: Masaki Sato and Tadayoshi Yamamuro
Favourite new DB Animators: Yuya Takahashi and Chikashi Kubota
Favourite old DB Animators: Masaki Sato and Tadayoshi Yamamuro
Favourite new DB Animators: Yuya Takahashi and Chikashi Kubota
- Gyt Kaliba
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8869
- Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:38 am
- Location: Arkansas
- Contact:
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Maybe it was measly for you, but Kuririn was a character that had been around for a long time (almost since the beginning), and as you pointed out, he just 'died again'. In Dragon Ball, especially at this point in time, that's almost worse than if it was the first time, because now he probably can't ever be brought back again, from Goku's POV - especially not with Piccolo's 'apparent' death again as well.SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:When Freeza killed Krillin, I felt nothing near what Goku did and actually questioned it. Nothing was very impactful for me because Krillin was a) insignificant in Z and b) has died before. I couldnt see the big deal and still today thought it was weak for Goku to scream over it. I always thought it should have been Gohan killed by Freeza, krillin had no reason to even be targeted, where as Gohan was a Saiyan and was shown to be a threat to him, if Freeza killed Goku's only son in a bigoted motive to hurt Goku - that would have brought out my sympathy. Not killing someone as measly as Krillin. Who has died before.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't see why it's hard to believe that Goku would be outraged over the death of his best friend. There's nothing measly about that, at all.
AniManga Travelogue - Currently Reviewing: Dragon Ball (Z)
Twitter
Switch Friend Code: SW-0745-6427-7791 (let's play some Dragon Ball: The Breakers!)
Switch Friend Code: SW-0745-6427-7791 (let's play some Dragon Ball: The Breakers!)
- thomas1up
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 375
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:51 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
I actually felt sad when Kami-Sama was pretty much wiped from existence, he did the biggest sacrifice out of most the characters and he's not ever mentioned again 
Also even though Dragon Balls DO exist I don't think it ruins the deaths, when I first watched Goku's death after Raditz I actually found it pretty sad, obviously watching now it doesn't have the same effect but damn first time around it was pretty depressing!
Piccolo's death too, since at the time we (the viewer) would have no idea on how they could come back (unless you'd been spoiled)
Also even though Dragon Balls DO exist I don't think it ruins the deaths, when I first watched Goku's death after Raditz I actually found it pretty sad, obviously watching now it doesn't have the same effect but damn first time around it was pretty depressing!
Piccolo's death too, since at the time we (the viewer) would have no idea on how they could come back (unless you'd been spoiled)
-Anon-Kun 2014 <3thomas1up are fuckin terrible and need to fuck off asap all the other noobs are decent thouhg
- garnetjester
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:42 am
- Location: Colombia
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
I think Toriyama did it pretty well up to the Buu arc when the story started to move at breakneck speed and there wasn't a lot of time to process all of the deaths happening left and right, that's without pointing out the fact that the whole arc someone was saying "It's ok, work harder so we can revive them with the dragon balls". It felt a little anti climatic, but there were still deaths in that saga that gave it a sense of loss, like when Buu crushes Chichi in front of Goten or the senseless death of the old couple, Vegeta's self sacrifice also stands out, even if it's pretty obvious that he's not gonna stay dead at that point.
In general, I think that for what DB strives to be, which is a lighthearted story about adventure and fights, it has a great balance of dark moments and happy endings. I like that, the broody overly angsty thing is not my kind of entertainment at all, and I don't like seeing characters I love suffer a lot for no reason other than to make them ~deep~ so I'm glad things are kept upbeat for the most part.
What is this about No. 16 living in nature? I don't recall it from the anime or manga (I think Shenron told Gohan that he couldn't revive No 16 because it was fully mechanical) but I don't remember exactly, and I've heard it being brought up before too.
In general, I think that for what DB strives to be, which is a lighthearted story about adventure and fights, it has a great balance of dark moments and happy endings. I like that, the broody overly angsty thing is not my kind of entertainment at all, and I don't like seeing characters I love suffer a lot for no reason other than to make them ~deep~ so I'm glad things are kept upbeat for the most part.
What is this about No. 16 living in nature? I don't recall it from the anime or manga (I think Shenron told Gohan that he couldn't revive No 16 because it was fully mechanical) but I don't remember exactly, and I've heard it being brought up before too.
"Giving up is something we can do anytime, so let's head on, even if it's just a little bit!"
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
I didn't think Chichi was a sense of loss. Damn little bastard Gotenks still fucked around with Buu despite Chichi's death, but at least the fight was funny.
No. 16 was never in nature as far as I remember. We do see No. 17 during the Genki Dama portion.
No. 16 was never in nature as far as I remember. We do see No. 17 during the Genki Dama portion.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
- garnetjester
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:42 am
- Location: Colombia
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
I thought it was pretty sad for Goten how he's left with no family in like 10 seconds. But then yeah, Gotenks is not serious business at all so it kills the mood (which actually happens a lot in the Buu arc because everyone is fooling around at some point, I think it's to bring back the humor but sometimes it's a little tone deaf, however much I loved all those stupid gags).
Thank you for confirming about No. 16.
Thank you for confirming about No. 16.
"Giving up is something we can do anytime, so let's head on, even if it's just a little bit!"
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
garnetjester wrote:I thought it was pretty sad for Goten how he's left with no family in like 10 seconds..

His grandad and his dad are still alive!
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
- TheGmGoken
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 10592
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
- Location: Capsule Corps
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Teen Goten got Gine hair. Not Yamcha. Toriyama killed the joke. Gohan is Goten half brotherKid Buu wrote:garnetjester wrote:I thought it was pretty sad for Goten how he's left with no family in like 10 seconds..
His grandad and his dad are still alive!
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
TheGmGoken wrote:Teen Goten got Gine hair. Not Yamcha. Toriyama killed the joke. Gohan is Goten half brotherKid Buu wrote:garnetjester wrote:I thought it was pretty sad for Goten how he's left with no family in like 10 seconds..
His grandad and his dad are still alive!

Looks similar to me.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
- SingleFringe&Sparks
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1642
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
- Location: Mt. Paozu/East District
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
I think if they stuck with fewer wishes it would have made it manditory to hold a more stategic way of handling villains or at least kill off the "useless" characters that never fight anyone important anyway. That or the same people wouldn't keep dying over and over. I'm sure Chaoztu would have been better off in otherworld; he and Tien would probably get a lot stronger and the other characters could cameo in if needed.kidglov3s wrote:I believe that dramatically the show essentially lost all sense of stakes once the Dragonballs were upgraded such that they could bring people back to life unlimited times (as long as it was an unnatural death). If I had been asked to give my input I would have said that's a direction we shouldn't go in. I feel like that along with Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta all achieving Super Saiya-jin without much effort or circumstance significantly hampered my interest in events moving forward.
In terms of SSJ, I think DBZ lost a lot of the meaning to its theme when SSj stopped requiring intense pressure, struggle and training to even reach it and surpass it. After the Cell saga, it meant nothing at all.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
- TheGmGoken
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 10592
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
- Location: Capsule Corps
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Kid Buu they look nothing alike...
Not even Gt Goten......
Teen Goten is Gine or Goku hair grown down.
Gt Goten is slanted hair.
The joke works only for Gohan
Not even Gt Goten......
Teen Goten is Gine or Goku hair grown down.
Gt Goten is slanted hair.
The joke works only for Gohan
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Well, Gyumo is still alive as his grandad.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
- SingleFringe&Sparks
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1642
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
- Location: Mt. Paozu/East District
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
By the time it came down to him, Krillin seemed too much of an easy target and was insignificant in terms of relevance to the current spot in the saga,the saga was about the Nameks and the Sayians confronting Freeza, not Krillin. Goku becoming SSJ was about him accepting his place in the legend. If Freeza killed Gohan instead, not only would it force him as the last survivor of the race to stop Freeza - it would also have to provoke some of Goku's parental instincts to see the unfairness in it. Krillin dying was measly because focus on him killed the atmosphere of that point in the Arc. If krillin stayed dead from when Freeza impaled him the impact would have been left in because that point in the arc he was in the focus group. Freeza had no real reason to kill him again at the point he did.Gyt Kaliba wrote:Maybe it was measly for you, but Kuririn was a character that had been around for a long time (almost since the beginning), and as you pointed out, he just 'died again'. In Dragon Ball, especially at this point in time, that's almost worse than if it was the first time, because now he probably can't ever be brought back again, from Goku's POV - especially not with Piccolo's 'apparent' death again as well.SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:When Freeza killed Krillin, I felt nothing near what Goku did and actually questioned it. Nothing was very impactful for me because Krillin was a) insignificant in Z and b) has died before. I couldnt see the big deal and still today thought it was weak for Goku to scream over it. I always thought it should have been Gohan killed by Freeza, krillin had no reason to even be targeted, where as Gohan was a Saiyan and was shown to be a threat to him, if Freeza killed Goku's only son in a bigoted motive to hurt Goku - that would have brought out my sympathy. Not killing someone as measly as Krillin. Who has died before.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't see why it's hard to believe that Goku would be outraged over the death of his best friend. There's nothing measly about that, at all.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Tue May 13, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20497
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Sarasota, FL
- Contact:
Re: Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?
Goku already accepted who he was, Kuririn's death is meant to pull on the heartstrings. We know what he meant to Goku. Sure, Gohan's his son and it would've been very traumatic, but we don't know that Kuririn can be brought back at this point.
Of course Freeza had a reason to kill Kuririn - it was to kill off Goku's loved ones in front of him.
Of course Freeza had a reason to kill Kuririn - it was to kill off Goku's loved ones in front of him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.








