Yeah, it was established as a funi dub line.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:When did Trunks say that?Gokuden wrote:When Trunks said Gohan's doing it properly, he wasn't referring to raw strength, quantity of ki, or fighting technique, oh no, it was SPEED.
Trunks never used a ki blast against Cell that used up such a large amount of his ki, let alone doing so after fighting an opponent both stronger and faster than he was during the majority of their fight. If Goku hadn't used the Shunkan Idou Kamehameha when he did, or used so much ki when he did, then he wouldn't have wore himself down so quickly.Gokuden wrote:
When Trunks was going all-out with Cell, his power did not fade, it rose, until a certain point where the only thing holding him back was his lack of speed. His reservoir of ki was steady.
I don't recall Goku ever saying that his blast would have defeated Cell if it had been larger, and the whole line of Trunks saying Gohan was doing it properly wasn't in the original manga, just a dub line as others have pointed out. Likewise, there's no mention whatsoever of him receiving a zenkai as a result of it. The only zenkai ever stated or inferred to happen after Goku's time in the healing chamber during the Freeza Saga was Cell's zenkai following his self-destruct attempt. Since no other zenkai is ever suggested, nor is Cell's strength ever mentioned to increase as a result of that particular recovery, we can't assume there was one.Gokuden wrote:
When Trunks said Gohan's doing it properly, he wasn't referring to raw strength, quantity of ki, or fighting technique, oh no, it was SPEED.
When Goku blasted Cell to near-death, then gave him a sensu bean as a gesture of goodwill, or because of his mild retardation, he said he would have killed Cell had the blast been larger (same applies to Super Vegeta). But, Cell did get a Zenkai boost, how big it was is a mystery, but since Saiyans at near-death get a massive boost, you can expect the same from someone with the same infrastructure.
Cell wasn't using anywhere near his full strength when he fought Trunks though, so any suggestion that Trunks was stronger than him is only in reference to that suppressed level of power. Furthermore, when Goku is getting ready to announce who would be replacing him, Cell even says that while he suspects that Vegeta and Trunks had both become stronger since their last fight, he's certain that they hadn't reached a level to surpass Goku, meaning that if he didn't believe Trunks was stronger than Goku now, he definitely knows Ssj Grade 3 Trunks was weaker than him before hand.Gokuden wrote:
Had Trunks been fast enough, he would have ended the Saga before the Cell Games as a humble half-breed warrior.
Something like: He's fast as Cell,,maybe even faster,,,dbgtFO wrote:Yeah, it was established as a funi dub line.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:When did Trunks say that?Gokuden wrote:When Trunks said Gohan's doing it properly, he wasn't referring to raw strength, quantity of ki, or fighting technique, oh no, it was SPEED.
Though I Wonder what was said in the japanese version of the anime.
We don't know how strong Goku was. For all we know, he could have been stronger than Vegeta & Trunks.xmysticgohanx wrote:So what about the second point I made: USSJ Goku > Semi Perfect Cell? That sounds to be more than 2x especially since SSJ Goku was weaker than 17 and 18.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
The thing is though is that Ssj2 is twice the strength of the Saiya-jin's maximum Ssj output, so no matter how strong their Ssj form was, their Ssj2 form would be higher. Sure, Ssj Grade 3 Goku was very likely stronger than 2nd Stage Cell as he was, and was almost certainly several times stronger than he was before the training, he was still a Super Saiya-jin, and the boost from Ssj2 would still be higher.xmysticgohanx wrote:So what about the second point I made: USSJ Goku > Semi Perfect Cell? That sounds to be more than 2x especially since SSJ Goku was weaker than 17 and 18.
Piccolo said Vegeta surpassed Goku and Piccolo should know since he trained with him all 3 years.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:We don't know how strong Goku was. For all we know, he could have been stronger than Vegeta & Trunks.xmysticgohanx wrote:So what about the second point I made: USSJ Goku > Semi Perfect Cell? That sounds to be more than 2x especially since SSJ Goku was weaker than 17 and 18.
I'm pretty sure FPSSJ is just regular SSJ without the energy strain.Darkprince410 wrote:Full Power Super Saiya-jin is drawing on all that strength that he would have had in his Ssj Grade 3 form without sacrificing speed by bulking up, or dealing with near as much strain on the body as the earlier forms produced.
Goku is shown doing meditation while in the RoSaT, which the Super Exciting Guide notes as increasing his Ki. He wouldn't be at the level Piccolo was familiar with at that point.xmysticgohanx wrote:Piccolo said Vegeta surpassed Goku and Piccolo should know since he trained with him all 3 years.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:We don't know how strong Goku was. For all we know, he could have been stronger than Vegeta & Trunks.xmysticgohanx wrote:So what about the second point I made: USSJ Goku > Semi Perfect Cell? That sounds to be more than 2x especially since SSJ Goku was weaker than 17 and 18.
But Goku has already been training for a few months, and he should have gotten stronger that he was before.xmysticgohanx wrote:Piccolo said Vegeta surpassed Goku and Piccolo should know since he trained with him all 3 years.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
That's pretty much what it is I think. I don't know about it removing the energy strain completely but it at least decreased it down to a point where they can maintain the form without for extremely long periods of time. There is no increase in strength it just allows you to maintain your maximum output for longer and means you don't have to be as sparing with your energy as before because you don't have to keep energy in reserve to maintain the transformation.xmysticgohanx wrote:I'm pretty sure FPSSJ is just regular SSJ without the energy strain.
It's still the form that lets them draw on their full strength without the straining. It's letting them power up to their full strength (hence the name of the form) while not sacrificing speed by bulking up to extreme levels like Trunks did.xmysticgohanx wrote:I'm pretty sure FPSSJ is just regular SSJ without the energy strain.Darkprince410 wrote:Full Power Super Saiya-jin is drawing on all that strength that he would have had in his Ssj Grade 3 form without sacrificing speed by bulking up, or dealing with near as much strain on the body as the earlier forms produced.
But it never implies it gives the strength of the SSJG3 form. It just lets them use their maximum power for longer. The maximum would still be 50x base.Darkprince410 wrote:It's still the form that lets them draw on their full strength without the straining. It's letting them power up to their full strength (hence the name of the form) while not sacrificing speed by bulking up to extreme levels like Trunks did.
The way Goku explains it, to me at least, suggested that he knew instantly that the drawbacks of trying to grow stronger through that method (the Ssj Grade 3 approach of just powering up and bulking up the muscles) was costly in a number of ways, and saw that if he could figure out a way of growing stronger while maintaining the speed/strength balance of Super Saiya-jin AND cut down on the strain, it'd be the best approach. That and I feel the official name for the state speaks volumes, that when he powers up to his maximum, it's the full power output capable for the Super Saiya-jin form, and since Ssj 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade are clumped together as sub-states of the regular Super Saiya-jin form (as is FpSsj) then FpSsj would be able to produce the output at or above Ssj 3rd Grade.Hitiro wrote:But it never implies it gives the strength of the SSJG3 form. It just lets them use their maximum power for longer. The maximum would still be 50x base.Darkprince410 wrote:It's still the form that lets them draw on their full strength without the straining. It's letting them power up to their full strength (hence the name of the form) while not sacrificing speed by bulking up to extreme levels like Trunks did.
But the full power output capable for the SSJ form is what has already been applied which is 50x. The Graded forms are merely power-ups. Not actual forms themselves. Much in the same way Kaioken is a power-up, not a form. In all eventuality the SSJG3 form has, more than likely, a larger boost than SSJ2. If FPSSJ could give you access to the SSJG3 boost then there would be no need for them to use SSJ2, really. Goku would have been more than a match for Cell if he had that strength because FPSSJ > SSJG3 > SSJ2 in your scenario. And nowhere in the manga or any other sources is it indicated that FPSSJ increases the 50x boost.Darkprince410 wrote:The way Goku explains it, to me at least, suggested that he knew instantly that the drawbacks of trying to grow stronger through that method (the Ssj Grade 3 approach of just powering up and bulking up the muscles) was costly in a number of ways, and saw that if he could figure out a way of growing stronger while maintaining the speed/strength balance of Super Saiya-jin AND cut down on the strain, it'd be the best approach. That and I feel the official name for the state speaks volumes, that when he powers up to his maximum, it's the full power output capable for the Super Saiya-jin form, and since Ssj 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade are clumped together as sub-states of the regular Super Saiya-jin form (as is FpSsj) then FpSsj would be able to produce the output at or above Ssj 3rd Grade.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Well that basically is it. Their gains in the RoSaT from maintaining the SSJ form and training in it are huge. That is why they trounce Vegeta and Trunks and why even after all those years of training Vegeta is still behind Goku in terms of strength in the Boo arc because Goku was so far in front of him from the RoSaT training and Goku maintained training in the 7 years of his death. It's actually amazing that Vegeta was starting to follow him up. The amount of training Vegeta must have done to get close enough to Goku that the Majin boost was actually a significant enough of a gain to put them on equal pegging's is amazing.Cursed Lemon wrote:I'm going to go ahead and assume that Goku and Gohan were far stronger than Trunks and Vegeta in base, which feeds the theory that their FPSSJ could've been roughly comparable to at least ASSJ for Trunks and Vegeta.
SSJ Goku (post-ROSAT) is stronger than USSJ 3 Trunks/Vegeta. Goku said to Vegeta right before he goes to Karin with Gohan that he is stronger than him now, and Goku is well aware of the USSJ grades.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:We don't know how strong Goku was. For all we know, he could have been stronger than Vegeta & Trunks.xmysticgohanx wrote:So what about the second point I made: USSJ Goku > Semi Perfect Cell? That sounds to be more than 2x especially since SSJ Goku was weaker than 17 and 18.
But this isn't Goku after RoSaT he is talking about, this is Goku while inside the RoSaT.OWmyDragonBallz wrote:SSJ Goku (post-ROSAT) is stronger than USSJ 3 Trunks/Vegeta. Goku said to Vegeta right before he goes to Karin with Gohan that he is stronger than him now, and Goku is well aware of the USSJ grades.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:We don't know how strong Goku was. For all we know, he could have been stronger than Vegeta & Trunks.xmysticgohanx wrote:So what about the second point I made: USSJ Goku > Semi Perfect Cell? That sounds to be more than 2x especially since SSJ Goku was weaker than 17 and 18.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
