Did DBZ Need More Sense of Loss?

[IIMaxII]

A common flaw brought up about DBZ is how the Dragon Balls pretty much undo every single thing that was killed/destroyed by a villain, causing there to be no real sense of loss or tragedy.

Do you think DBZ needed more actual loss, or would you prefer it didn't?

Dragonball has a strong sense of loss for me throughout the series. I genuinely cried when Cell had pushed Gohan to his limits forcing him to reach into his untapped potential. I could relate to that. His friends being attacked and threatened to be killed pushed him over the edge to protect the one's he loves. Other moments that caused me to cry were when Vegeta dying at the hands of Freeza, When Freeza killed Krillin, When Trunks was killed by Cell, When 16 was killed by Cell, When Vegeta sacrificed himself to save the world, only to fail. There was a strong sense of loss throughout the series. Sure, characters could always return and I knew that, but that didn't stop those scenes from evoking emotion from me.

[TheUltimateVegito]

The thing I liked the most about GT is the way they tackled this problem.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Goku already accepted who he was, Kuririn's death is meant to pull on the heartstrings. We know what he meant to Goku. Sure, Gohan's his son and it would've been very traumatic, but we don't know that Kuririn can be brought back at this point.

Of course Freeza had a reason to kill Kuririn - it was to kill off Goku's loved ones in front of him.

I know but there wasn't enough symbolism in Krillin at the time to really convey a bigger picture into why SSJ was realized and what it would mean from that point, sure krillin inspired him but I don't think he surved the push relative to the build up for that need. If Freeza killed everyone but Goku, the way Buu did - I could see how Goku would lose his mind over it a lot clearer because it would be for a bigger picture. There would have been plenty of themes to the external emotions that would become of that atmosphere. Its like in SM when the scouts die, there is no favouritism, they are either all killed at once or die in a sacrafice which is what I thought could have emphasized a bigger spark of development for Goku.

[GarrettCRW]

Goku lost it pretty badly when Krillin was killed the first time, and with the added pain of knowing that he can't be wished back, that seems sufficient enough to push Goku over the edge in my mind.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Goku lost it pretty badly when Krillin was killed the first time, and with the added pain of knowing that he can't be wished back, that seems sufficient enough to push Goku over the edge in my mind.

Yet he was anyway which devoided everything established before than, his life felt expendable enuogh even before that point.

[ABED]

Goku already accepted who he was, Kuririn's death is meant to pull on the heartstrings. We know what he meant to Goku. Sure, Gohan's his son and it would've been very traumatic, but we don't know that Kuririn can be brought back at this point.

Of course Freeza had a reason to kill Kuririn - it was to kill off Goku's loved ones in front of him.

I know but there wasn't enough symbolism in Krillin at the time to really convey a bigger picture into why SSJ was realized and what it would mean from that point, sure krillin inspired him but I don't think he surved the push relative to the build up for that need. If Freeza killed everyone but Goku, the way Buu did - I could see how Goku would lose his mind over it a lot clearer because it would be for a bigger picture. There would have been plenty of themes to the external emotions that would become of that atmosphere. Its like in SM when the scouts die, there is no favouritism, they are either all killed at once or die in a sacrafice which is what I thought could have emphasized a bigger spark of development for Goku.

The audience knows what Kuririn means to Goku, and Freeza threatened to kill Gohan. I think you are making a bigger deal out of something that is just fine.

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku already accepted who he was, Kuririn's death is meant to pull on the heartstrings. We know what he meant to Goku. Sure, Gohan's his son and it would've been very traumatic, but we don't know that Kuririn can be brought back at this point.

Of course Freeza had a reason to kill Kuririn - it was to kill off Goku's loved ones in front of him.

I know but there wasn't enough symbolism in Krillin at the time to really convey a bigger picture into why SSJ was realized and what it would mean from that point, sure krillin inspired him but I don't think he surved the push relative to the build up for that need. If Freeza killed everyone but Goku, the way Buu did - I could see how Goku would lose his mind over it a lot clearer because it would be for a bigger picture. There would have been plenty of themes to the external emotions that would become of that atmosphere. Its like in SM when the scouts die, there is no favouritism, they are either all killed at once or die in a sacrafice which is what I thought could have emphasized a bigger spark of development for Goku.

I feel like this is an impression more often seen among those who saw Z before Dragon Ball. I don't think that Krillin and Goku's backstory is really played up that much in the Saiyan and Namek arcs.
If you've seen Dragon Ball, though, it makes perfect sense for Goku to react the way he did. It's basically the same thing he did the first time Krillin died, except escalated to match the scale that the series had reached by that point.

[Black_Liger]

No actually. Before namek saga, new comers would think that the cast would remain dead until the existence of the dragon balls was released, in namek arc, most of the main cast remained dead until the end of it, then there was a sense of intensity when the namek dragon balls had a chance to be used by the bad guy, and where even used by him but he didn't know the language so it didn't work, but for me it was a heart pumping moment the first time.

Then in cell arc, not only 16 was destroyed but he couldn't be wished back or even go to the afterlife because he had no soul, he was just a robot, so that's a sense of loss, and goku decided to remain death.

Now in buu arc, the dead's and overall maniacal aspects of the arc are enough for a big WTF, then it turns out if you "die" while in soul form, your existence is erased, and buu almost destroyed the afterlife.

[ABED]

I also don't think "symbolism" is the word you want to use in this context.

I'm willing to concede that Toriyama could have played up Kuririn's importance a little more, but that probably would've tipped the hat.

I don't think the series needed more sense of loss but the DB upgrades did get a little absurd.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I feel like this is an impression more often seen among those who saw Z before Dragon Ball. I don't think that Krillin and Goku's backstory is really played up that much in the Saiyan and Namek arcs.
If you've seen Dragon Ball, though, it makes perfect sense for Goku to react the way he did. It's basically the same thing he did the first time Krillin died, except escalated to match the scale that the series had reached by that point.

Thats the issue though, it isnt the first time he died, the shock of it was lost when he was killed again because he suddenly became elevated over the meaning of death when hes immune to it. Youre basically immune when you can come back next arc.

Now in buu arc, the dead's and overall maniacal aspects of the arc are enough for a big WTF, then it turns out if you "die" while in soul form, your existence is erased, and buu almost destroyed the afterlife.

The difference with the Buu arc is that the characters were all killed and kept inactive for a long time. There was no reference to their further existance until late in the saga when Kid buu appeared, before them their absence is what made their deaths actually mean something as death is supposed to. The problem with DBZ is that the time spans of death and revival are too close together and too frequent. For a character to "die" than seen the next episode later even if its in the afterlife doesnt give the audience a sense he was really gone. Just tagged out. In the buu saga the deaths of the characters was at least more complex than just slapping around the weak characters or 1-shotting them. They were actually put into a limbo state and made it clear by Goku even he wasnt sure if they could be brought back trapped in buu because it wasnt really death. Its that mystery that makes you consider what the loss actually is.

I think you are making a bigger deal out of something that is just fine.

Any other anime would be bashed and torn apart if its writing structure was like DBZ's.
Only because its DBZ it gets that suspension.

[ABED]

DBZ gets bashed all the time. Not sure where you got the idea that it gets a pass. The structure of having Kuririn die with little build is fine. We know what he means to Goku.

The shock of his second death wasn't lost because as of that time, the audience believed it was permanent, and more importantly, Goku did.

[thatdbzguy]

Any other anime would be bashed and torn apart if its writing structure was like DBZ's.
Only because its DBZ it gets that suspension.

Not sure where you got that from. Most people, including the fans, recognize DBZ as a poorly-written story that's only good for mindless fighting.

[ABED]

Any other anime would be bashed and torn apart if its writing structure was like DBZ's.
Only because its DBZ it gets that suspension.

Not sure where you got that from. Most people, including the fans, recognize DBZ as a poorly-written story that's only good for mindless fighting.

What do you consider thoughtful fighting?

[Kamiccolo9]

Any other anime would be bashed and torn apart if its writing structure was like DBZ's.
Only because its DBZ it gets that suspension.

Not sure where you got that from. Most people, including the fans, recognize DBZ as a poorly-written story that's only good for mindless fighting.

You need to get it through your head that you don't speak for "most people." It's getting annoying.

[Wibbs]

Any other anime would be bashed and torn apart if its writing structure was like DBZ's.
Only because its DBZ it gets that suspension.

Not sure where you got that from. Most people, including the fans, recognize DBZ as a poorly-written story that's only good for mindless fighting.

You need to get it through your head that you don't speak for "most people." It's getting annoying.

It's the baiting for an argument that's getting on my nerves. If you want to have a discussion fine, but all these purposefully controversial statements are dragging your topics down.

[thatdbzguy]

Any other anime would be bashed and torn apart if its writing structure was like DBZ's.
Only because its DBZ it gets that suspension.

Not sure where you got that from. Most people, including the fans, recognize DBZ as a poorly-written story that's only good for mindless fighting.

You need to get it through your head that you don't speak for "most people." It's getting annoying.

Back when I first became addicted to DBZ, I would go all across the internet for any sort of talk relating to DBZ. And I mean all across.

Because of that, I saw that the majority of people either didn't care for DBZ, or only liked it for the nostalgia and/or fighting. Nobody ever praised it for having a well-written story or anything, and it's easy to see why.

When I say things and throw "most people" into the mix, I'm not just pulling things out of my ass. It's based off of all those years of internet surfing and real-life discussions.

[Kamiccolo9]

Back when I first became addicted to DBZ, I would go all across the internet for any sort of talk relating to DBZ. And I mean all across.

Because of that, I saw that the majority of people either didn't care for DBZ, or only liked it for the nostalgia and/or fighting. Nobody ever praised it for having a well-written story or anything, and it's easy to see why.

When I say things and throw "most people" into the mix, I'm not just pulling things out of my ass. It's based off of all those years of internet surfing and real-life discussions.

I don't care what you may or may not have done. You are not the spokesperson of the internet fanbase. All of your "experience" on the internet means nothing. For every detractor you find, I, or someone else, could more than likely find someone who praises the series.

Your repetitive moping around is really getting old. You are not contributing to the discussion anymore, nor are you being a productive member of the community. You've spent the last several months reiterating the same points over and over without end, and all you've accomplished is turning a large portion of this community against you. If that was your goal, then congrats.

I'm not entirely sure why you are even here anymore. You say that you are ashamed of liking the franchise, yet you stick around. You insult members of the community, and constantly detract something many of them are passionate about, and you insist on continuing on in this fashion. Are you trying to convince people that Dragon Ball is bad? If so, then you are doing a piss-poor job of it. Nobody here (except you, you claim) is so lacking in self esteem that the opinions of anonymous internet dwellers who may or may not exist that they spiral into self loathing at the very thought of enjoying a cartoon/comic book.

Don't bother responding to this. I'll be blocking you because you are no longer worth my time. Enjoy your wallowing in "shame" or your trolling; I don't really care which it is at this point.




On Topic:
I think that this problem concerning a lack of a sense of loss picked up in the Buu Arc, with Goku and Piccolo's comments on "let them die; we can bring them back with the Dragon Balls later." Yes, I realize these moments were brought about by necessity, but the callousness of the comments kind of undercut the moment for me.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

DBZ gets bashed all the time. Not sure where you got the idea that it gets a pass. The structure of having Kuririn die with little build is fine. We know what he means to Goku.

The shock of his second death wasn't lost because as of that time, the audience believed it was permanent, and more importantly, Goku did.

DBZ gets bashed for arbitrary stuff like the yelling and the "episode long" transformations or fight scenes. Rarely ever have I ever heard DBZ criticized for its writing besides from the One Piece fanboys.

Your repetitive moping around is really getting old.

This has been discussed a long time ago, and frankly it doesnt bother me anymore. He at least gives us things to talk about, a discussion cant be all positive. Someone needs to be the bad apple.

On topic.
There wasnt anything that really had it set for the audience to believe Krillin's death was perminant. Nothing I remember strongly made it clear. Him being brought back later within the end of the Arc made it seem like no big deal. Maybe they could have emphasized Goku and Krillin's friendship a bit more elaborately in DBZ to remind us that it is strong instead of rather putting it aside and making Krillin more of the joke of the group distracting us. In DB krillin was shown a lot more often to be hardworking and a calm, collected wise-guy at times that made him feel like a serious character. In Z (Namek and on) hes just comedic relief and its harder to take a character in that block seriously. Where as in Z Gohan was already established to be very significant just for being Goku's son. The importance in him would have clicked more instantly with the audience.

[ABED]

DBZ gets bashed for arbitrary stuff like the yelling and the "episode long" transformations or fight scenes. Rarely ever have I ever heard DBZ criticized for its writing besides from the One Piece fanboys.

That's not been my experience. There are plenty of detractors, and I've been around the net DBZ fans since pretty much the beginning.

There wasnt anything that really had it set for the audience to believe Krillin's death was perminant. Nothing I remember strongly made it clear.

I recall Goku saying that he couldn't be brought back. Regardless, it would still be upsetting to see someone die, just like it can be emotional for someone you love to move away from you. They aren't dead, but they are still not in close contact.

There are plenty of reminders that Kuririn is Goku's dear friend, and if you hit the point too hard on the head, it could tip people off to his fate. If you've been with the story for a while, it's well established how close Goku and Kuririn are.

[Naughty Kinto Un]

When I say things and throw "most people" into the mix, I'm not just pulling things out of my ass. It's based off of all those years of internet surfing and real-life discussions.

Can you walk us through your clearly rigorous method of study, as well as the peer-reviewed statistics you've accumulated over the year?

You do that successfully, and I might take you seriously.