How good are DBZ characters at martial arts?

[goku the krump dancer]

Funny, I remember Nam being known for hitting weak spots or pressure points both on Ranfan and Goku.

Also isnt chi use apart martial arts anyway? Not in the sense of planet destroying energy blasts but just in general because I hear stuff like "let your chi flow through your body " quite a lot in different films and cartoons.

And I think Cell, being a mix of Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo would be a tough contender.

[Rocketman]

Does Kratos really deserve to be on the same level as Batman and Captain America with just his fighting skills? I didn't really get that impression from GoW.

He's an Ancient Spartan ("finest soldiers the world has ever known" and all that) who was personally trained by the God of War. I wouldn't bet against him.

[Kamiccolo9]

Does Kratos really deserve to be on the same level as Batman and Captain America with just his fighting skills? I didn't really get that impression from GoW.

He's an Ancient Spartan ("finest soldiers the world has ever known" and all that) who was personally trained by the God of War. I wouldn't bet against him.

Yeah, but he hasn't actually been shown to be an enormously skilled fighter as much as an enormously powerful one. Also, Ares doesn't exactly have the greatest track record in Greek mythology, so I'm not sure if that should be a plus for Kratos. He's the god of "untamed, savage war," not a master fighter or strategist.

[mAcChaos]

It's hard to separate power and technique since it's their technique that leads to their power. Like ki blasts. Maybe they could be Dragonball power level and be able to make small Kamehamehas and such even with Batman and the rest using their own martial arts. The ki use is supposed to be because they're so good at martial arts in the first place.

[The Monkey King]

Well if Goku were blind he would still be able to kick ass:

Context: after Goku manages to kick Yakon in the dark
Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…”

[White Oni]

This is kind of a rigged question.

Here's why:

Comic book heros practice either "real" martial arts or martial arts that don't stray too far from human limitation.

That is, the training, the arts themselves, do not either rely on superhuman abilities, or push humans (far)past their natural limits when performed.

What I'm getting at is this:
"But you are still within human limits! In order to become a master of martial arts, you must break the wall of humanity! That is the challenge!"
-Roshi

The sorts of martial arts Goku and friends in the DBZ universe master both push them far past their natural limits &/ require they push far past them to be mastered.

What I'm getting at is this, in the DBZ universe, one example of "martial arts" is the mirror image technique.

But, in the scenario presented by the OP, no such technique could be performed, as it's not at all humanly possibly.

So we're left with a dilemma.

we either:

1) Either we lower Goku's physical limits to that of Batman and Goku can't use more than half the martial arts he was trained in.
or
2) We up Batman's physical limits to that of Goku, but then he's unfairly limited, in that his training never factored in the things Goku's did.

Something that does come to mind is this, Goku's brain must operate quite different from the likes of batman. Don't get me wrong, Batman can process complex combat at incredible speed and his reflexive skills are amazing, but Goku performs complex assaults and counters, WHILE planning combat strategies, all the while moving at NLS or FTLS (depending on your opinions)
I don't see how it can be argued that this wouldn't give Goku a strong edge in near any match-up.

[rereboy]

JLA/Avengers had Batman admitting that Captain America would probably beat him in a fight,

He admitted it because he witnessed his serum powered abilities. So, Batman, a normal fit human, admitted that he could lose to Captain America, an artificially enhanced human. Captain America's speed, reflexes and strength would all take a dive without the serum, so if he can fight more or less equally with batman, without the serum Batman would naturally be superior.

Captain America is peak human.

No, he is not. He doesn't have what we might classify as super-powers, but his physical abilities are enhanced beyond normal human limits. He's at the border between superhumans and humans. Classifying him as peak human is erroneous because it gives the impression that he's just a fit human, and he's not as we can see from various examples like this:

"The formula enhances all of his metabolic functions and prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles, giving him endurance far in excess of an ordinary human being. This accounts for many of his extraordinary feats, including bench pressing 1200 pounds (545 kg) and running a mile (1.6 km) in 73 seconds (49 mph/78 kph).[127] Furthermore, his enhancements are the reason why he was able to survive being frozen in suspended animation for decades. He is highly resistant to hypnosis or gases that could limit his focus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Am ... _abilities

Not even a human at his peak would be able to do all this. For example, the top limit of human speed on record is 44.72 km/h (12.42m/s, 27.44 mph) and Captain America can reach 49 mph/78 kph ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footspeed ). And the parts about not having build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles and being able to survive being frozen are clearly beyond human.

Batman can be correctly classified as peak human. Captain America however is beyond such limits.

[Bullza]

Funny, I remember Nam being known for hitting weak spots or pressure points both on Ranfan and Goku.

I actually never thought of that but there has been a few examples where characters have hit their opponents pressure points. Tao did that against General Blue to kill him. Beerus did it against Piccolo and Whis did it against Beerus.

As for Kratos I don't really know why he's been mentioned he hasn't shown to have great martial arts skills at all, every fight he's been in involves weapons and magic.

[TheGmGoken]

Question. Oob learning to fight as he fights and even Boo mimick abilities. Could they mimic Batman, Captain America, Shang Chi, Lady Shiva, Broze Tiger, Ra Al Ghuh, Iron Fist, and Moon Knight fighting styles

[Zephyr]

I was always under the impression that ki control/detection, and all of the insane abilities that come with it (gathering ki, bukujutsu, ki blasts, instantaneous movement, etc), ultimately stemmed from martial arts (albeit fantasy martial arts).

[rereboy]

I was always under the impression that ki control/detection, and all of the insane abilities that come with it (gathering ki, bukujutsu, ki blasts, instantaneous movement, etc), ultimately stemmed from martial arts (albeit fantasy martial arts).

I agree. If they were turned into real world martial arts, the gang would still be at the very top because that's what their level is implied to be.

[Hitiro]

Captain America is peak human.

No, he is not. He doesn't have what we might classify as super-powers, but his physical abilities are enhanced beyond normal human limits. He's at the border between superhumans and humans. Classifying him as peak human is erroneous because it gives the impression that he's just a fit human, and he's not as we can see from various examples like this:

"The formula enhances all of his metabolic functions and prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles, giving him endurance far in excess of an ordinary human being. This accounts for many of his extraordinary feats, including bench pressing 1200 pounds (545 kg) and running a mile (1.6 km) in 73 seconds (49 mph/78 kph).[127] Furthermore, his enhancements are the reason why he was able to survive being frozen in suspended animation for decades. He is highly resistant to hypnosis or gases that could limit his focus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Am ... _abilities

Not even a human at his peak would be able to do all this. For example, the top limit of human speed on record is 44.72 km/h (12.42m/s, 27.44 mph) and Captain America can reach 49 mph/78 kph ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footspeed ). And the parts about not having build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles and being able to survive being frozen are clearly beyond human.

Batman can be correctly classified as peak human. Captain America however is beyond such limits.

Captain America is actually classified as a person who is in "Peak Human" condition. But the super soldier serum also prevents fatigue poisons building up in his muscles so he can maintain doing his feats for extraordinarily long amounts of time and it has modified his body to be more durable than a normal human. You could probably consider the serum has altered his body to the peak of Human possibilities too rather than just his condition. Batman is also classified as in "Peak Human" condition but his was attained naturally. And he still suffers from his body not being the best in the world. It's kind of like when you are breeding animals and you are trying to obtain a animal that has a better body than the rest. Genes would be a huge factor for Batman but not for Captain America because the formula altered his body to suit the "Peak Human" conditions.

If you could be the fastest runner in the world it wouldn't amount to anything if you had two broken legs or legs that were weakened due to breaks in your bones. That is basically what is wrong with Batman. He has the conditioning but not the perfect body.

[Rocketman]

It really hits the problem all these matchups eventually do: you have to start cutting powers from the characters that are "part of them", and then you get into trying to cut evenly.

I mean, when you get down to it, Batman learning every single martial art in like five years is just as stupid/superhuman as Goku making afterimages of himself.

[RandomGuy96]

Again with the Kratos wank...

Anyway, as has been pointed out, even taking away his high ki level and decreasing it to that of a regular human, Goku's ki abilities ARE martial arts. While he wouldn't be able to blow up stars with them, he should still be able to throw ki attacks, including Kienzans. He should still be able to fly, teleport, make barriers, et cetera. But even if you then take THOSE away from him, well, he's still a saiyan. Saiyans are physically strong enough to tank bullets as children without any ki defense, so I doubt, say, Batman, would have much of a chance, at least realistically.

If you took away Goku's powers plus his ki martial arts plus his racial abilities, then yeah, obviously Batman would win, as I doubt Goku has any meaningful training in regular, mundane hand to hand fighting like Batman does. But at that point it's just not really fair.

More importantly, if Goku and Batman were to fight each other without any superhuman powers given to the former at all, well... remember that Goku is average sized and fairly lean, at 5'9, 137 pounds. Batman, on the other hand, is tall and buff, with an official height of 6'2 and an official weight of 210 pounds. That's several weight classes apart. There's a reason we have those, you know.

[Rocketman]

Again with the Kratos wank...

You can't really complain about characters being wanked when Batman is in the discussion.

[RandomGuy96]

Again with the Kratos wank...

You can't really complain about characters being wanked when Batman is in the discussion.

You're assuming I tolerate Bat-wank?

[dario03]

Again with the Kratos wank...

Anyway, as has been pointed out, even taking away his high ki level and decreasing it to that of a regular human, Goku's ki abilities ARE martial arts. While he wouldn't be able to blow up stars with them, he should still be able to throw ki attacks, including Kienzans. He should still be able to fly, teleport, make barriers, et cetera. But even if you then take THOSE away from him, well, he's still a saiyan. Saiyans are physically strong enough to tank bullets as children without any ki defense, so I doubt, say, Batman, would have much of a chance, at least realistically.

If you took away Goku's powers plus his ki martial arts plus his racial abilities, then yeah, obviously Batman would win, as I doubt Goku has any meaningful training in regular, mundane hand to hand fighting like Batman does. But at that point it's just not really fair.

More importantly, if Goku and Batman were to fight each other without any superhuman powers given to the former at all, well... remember that Goku is average sized and fairly lean, at 5'9, 137 pounds. Batman, on the other hand, is tall and buff, with an official height of 6'2 and an official weight of 210 pounds. That's several weight classes apart. There's a reason we have those, you know.

I was assuming we were averaging size as well since its supposed to be just about skill. Though that does remind me...Where do they get these weights from?! Batman's isn't to bad though sometimes they draw him like a tank and he looks a lot bigger. But going by most weight by height charts that I've seen Goku is under weight and even when he isn't bulked up from powering up he still usually has a decent build. Are Saiyans made of helium or something?

[rereboy]

Captain America is actually classified as a person who is in "Peak Human" condition.

And like I said, I completely disagree with that definition for him. He can do stuff beyond any peak human. Heck, he can basically run twice as fast as the fastest human ever in record, like I demonstrated. It really doesn't matter how fit or how "peak" a normal human is, he or she will never be able to do what Captain America is able to do.

Usain Bolt, the fastest human on record already has pretty much the perfect human body for running and an even more perfect body than his would amount to only marginally differences, like the differences between Usain Bolt and his competitors. However, Captain America completely eclipses Usain Bolt by running pretty much twice as fast as him. That is way more difference than is possible for any normal or peak human. Therefore, he is beyond that, he is just not in same class as actual superhumans. Like I said, he is kind of in the border between humans and superhumans.

Also, having the perfect human body wouldn't make a human being be able to survive being frozen in ice for decades. Surviving that is not a matter of resistance. The body would have to be different from a normal human one.

By the way, compare Buffy to Captain America. Buffy is always stated as being beyond human in terms of her abilities. However, comparing her feats in terms of abilities with Captain America, Captain America seems more impressive than her. And yet she is beyond human and Captain America is peak human? Yeah, no. Can't agree with that. Peak human is a definition that doesn't fit him.

Being classified as peak human has always been just a way for the reader to relate to him and believe that he is not actually beyond human, that a human could possibly be as impressive as him and kind of forget that he is only that impressive in terms of his abilities because of drugs. But what the reader actually sees of him tells something else.

[Rocketman]

I always saw it as Cap is the absolute best a human could possibly be without being classified as a separate species. Not that you (general you) could possibly train yourself up to his level, but that he's still an H. sapiens, unlike the X-men style mutants (H. superior) or the guys like Spider-Man and the FF who're mutants from radioactivity.

[Hitiro]

And like I said, I completely disagree with that definition for him. He can do stuff beyond any peak human. Heck, he can basically run twice as fast as the fastest human ever in record, like I demonstrated. It really doesn't matter how fit or how "peak" a normal human is, he or she will never be able to do what Captain America is able to do.

Usain Bolt, the fastest human on record already has pretty much the perfect human body for running and an even more perfect body than his would amount to only marginally differences, like the differences between Usain Bolt and his competitors. However, Captain America completely eclipses Usain Bolt by running pretty much twice as fast as him. That is way more difference than is possible for any normal or peak human. Therefore, he is beyond that, he is just not in same class as actual superhumans. Like I said, he is kind of in the border between humans and superhumans.

Also, having the perfect human body wouldn't make a human being be able to survive being frozen in ice for decades. Surviving that is not a matter of resistance. The body would have to be different from a normal human one.

By the way, compare Buffy to Captain America. Buffy is always stated as being beyond human in terms of her abilities. However, comparing her feats in terms of abilities with Captain America, Captain America seems more impressive than her. And yet she is beyond human and Captain America is peak human? Yeah, no. Can't agree with that. Peak human is a definition that doesn't fit him.

Being classified as peak human has always been just a way for the reader to relate to him and believe that he is not actually beyond human, that a human could possibly be as impressive as him and kind of forget that he is only that impressive in terms of his abilities because of drugs. But what the reader actually sees of him tells something else.

Peak human conditioning also relies on the condition of that universes humans. It is more than likely that the humans of Captain America's universe are much better than our own. Batman's too. In Dragon Ball a Peak Human would probably be capable of some amazing feats.