Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more!?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

First of all, nobody EVER got exhausted, or even mildly fatigued, from using SSJ2. The precedent set by BoG is not reflected in (or even relevant to, IMO) the rest of Z, and as far as FPSSJ, at no point can I even think of does a single character beat his opponent through a battle of endurance.

We never saw a Super Saiyan losing because of the strain it puts on the body, yet Goku still figured that mastering it to eliminate that weakness would be the best.

[TheGmGoken]

First of all, nobody EVER got exhausted, or even mildly fatigued, from using SSJ2. The precedent set by BoG is not reflected in (or even relevant to, IMO) the rest of Z, and as far as FPSSJ, at no point can I even think of does a single character beat his opponent through a battle of endurance.

We never saw a Super Saiyan losing because of the strain it puts on the body, yet Goku still figured that mastering it to eliminate that weakness would be the best.

One can argue that the strain made the virus act quicker. I know the virus already started but SSJ strain made it quicker and hurt more. Though before BoG ssj2 was never said to have strain. Ssj3 did however. Also people seem to think strain as visible. They like to compare or think of kaioken or ssj3

[Zephyr]

SSj2 is inherently less relaxed and calm than SSj1. That alone gives a drawback to the form.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

We never saw a Super Saiyan losing because of the strain it puts on the body, yet Goku still figured that mastering it to eliminate that weakness would be the best.

Dont you remember how buff Goku was when he first turned? He did say that his fight with Freeza tired him out immensly over the time span.
Though mastery of SSJ was just controlling the energy and sense of reason through the rage triggering it. Thats what Gohan had to do. Training after that was just building on it without distorting their body.

If youre referencing the movie spefically, he already mastered SSJ3 in his living body perfectly and if that isnt enough, than there has to be more to it.

[Hitiro]

You are speaking on the premise that he HAS to hit a peak, and that there is no creativity left in the SSJ1-SSJ3 hierarchy, or that we can't have other characters (coughTrunksandGoten) actually start improving via transformations.

It doesn't have to be about Goku breaking the mold. Throwing out super saiyan is like throwing out space travel in Star Trek.

Well we aren't on about any of the other characters here. Just Goku. Now the other characters are free to improve themselves and continue to use transformations. By this point only Gohan is truly around Goku's level when considering SSJ3. Just because Goku has decided to stop relying on SSJ2 and SSJ3 and make his base form the strongest it can be while using SSJ to make up for the gap between his true maximum doesn't mean everyone else needs to follow suit. This is just something Goku is doing, Akira Toriyama never said anything about the other characters. It is highly likely we will still see SSJ3 from Gotenks because I highly doubt Goten or Trunks will catch up with Goku.

And I'm not saying Goku HAS to hit his peak. It is highly likely he won't be able to in his lifetime. That is why he will continue to use the original SSJ transformation and master it completely along with increasing his base power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If youre referencing the movie spefically, he already mastered SSJ3 in his living body perfectly and if that isnt enough, than there has to be more to it.

We don't know that. We don't know if mastering SS3 is even possible.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

If youre referencing the movie spefically, he already mastered SSJ3 in his living body perfectly and if that isnt enough, than there has to be more to it.

We don't know that. We don't know if mastering SS3 is even possible.

If Goku can sustain it without strain than thats all mastery is as far as we know. I'd assume by BOG his SSJ3 is at least as stable as Gotenk's meaning it has no drawbacks besides powering up into it. Why he was so unusually slow when he fought Beerus is still my gripe.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gotenks had the same drawbacks with Goku. The form lasted for 5 minutes, except for when Goku was dead, and it drained whatever they had if they had something (Goku had his time-limit in the living world, Gotenks had the time-limit of Fusion)

The fight is slow because we are watching it in slow motion. Just watch the part of their next fight in the cave.

[Low Tone G]

Well we aren't on about any of the other characters here. Just Goku. Now the other characters are free to improve themselves and continue to use transformations. By this point only Gohan is truly around Goku's level when considering SSJ3. Just because Goku has decided to stop relying on SSJ2 and SSJ3 and make his base form the strongest it can be while using SSJ to make up for the gap between his true maximum doesn't mean everyone else needs to follow suit. This is just something Goku is doing, Akira Toriyama never said anything about the other characters. It is highly likely we will still see SSJ3 from Gotenks because I highly doubt Goten or Trunks will catch up with Goku.

And I'm not saying Goku HAS to hit his peak. It is highly likely he won't be able to in his lifetime. That is why he will continue to use the original SSJ transformation and master it completely along with increasing his base power.

I don't know if in every cases mastering base and SSj1 is better than to rely on transformations, but this could make sense for all the saiyans. Vegeta was able to surpass Goku in SSJ1(2) for a moment, although ne never managed to go SSJ3. There's a logic like "the base form is the best way to conserve power" I can say. If there's a law that transformations are shortcuts to higher power with a price (strain/frustated psychologic state, etc.) and the transformation are really variations of the same SSJ transformation then Goku's case is unic only because of SSJ-God power, and the ability to keep it, but the method of mastering base and SSJ1 to the full potential of the body is available for every saiyan.

[Hitiro]

I don't know if in every cases mastering base and SSj1 is better than to rely on transformations, but this could make sense for all the saiyans. Vegeta was able to surpass Goku in SSJ1(2) for a moment, although ne never managed to go SSJ3. There's a logic like "the base form is the best way to conserve power" I can say. If there's a law that transformations are shortcuts to higher power with a price (strain/frustated psychologic state, etc.) and the transformation are really variations of the same SSJ transformation then Goku's case is unic only because of SSJ-God power, and the ability to keep it, but the method of mastering base and SSJ1 to the full potential of the body is available for every saiyan.

Well I'm not saying it wouldn't be best for everyone to do it. What I'm saying is for the other characters to keep up with Goku they will probably continue to use the SSJ transformations. Goten and Trunks will never amount to being as strong as Goku in base without their transformations. And if Goku gets as strong as his SSJ3 form in base then they won't be able to be as strong/stronger unless they fuse and go SSJ. Of course they are free to do the same as Goku. But can you really see Goten and Trunks training as hard/harder then their fathers to keep up? Highly unlikely.

[Low Tone G]

I don't know if in every cases mastering base and SSj1 is better than to rely on transformations, but this could make sense for all the saiyans. Vegeta was able to surpass Goku in SSJ1(2) for a moment, although ne never managed to go SSJ3. There's a logic like "the base form is the best way to conserve power" I can say. If there's a law that transformations are shortcuts to higher power with a price (strain/frustated psychologic state, etc.) and the transformation are really variations of the same SSJ transformation then Goku's case is unic only because of SSJ-God power, and the ability to keep it, but the method of mastering base and SSJ1 to the full potential of the body is available for every saiyan.

Well I'm not saying it wouldn't be best for everyone to do it. What I'm saying is for the other characters to keep up with Goku they will probably continue to use the SSJ transformations. Goten and Trunks will never amount to being as strong as Goku in base without their transformations. And if Goku gets as strong as his SSJ3 form in base then they won't be able to be as strong/stronger unless they fuse and go SSJ. Of course they are free to do the same as Goku. But can you really see Goten and Trunks training as hard/harder then their fathers to keep up? Highly unlikely.

Of course they never be so strong like Goku because Goku has now Godly power. Goku's base power it's immensly stronger than his SSJ3 self's power can ever be. Which I'm saying is Goku's potentiall has increased a lot by the fact that he is now a permanent God, a real God of War. He can continue to become even stronger, has he how even more Godly latent power to realise with training. I personally beilve that some of the latent Godly power has been shown right when Goku was able to transform into SSJ-God once again after being really exhaused from Beerus's ultimate attack.

But the way to master SSJ and base could work for all the saiyans as we can take SSJ2 and SSJ3 as shortcuts to future powers, which could be realised through training but it durates more time to achive that power. The shortcuts even if are comfortable as generate much power in a moment, but have some side-effects which make them useless in a tight fight because they simply exhausting. So if they train their body have the time get used to that genarated power. So it worths to become stroner via training as you can conserve the earned power way better than with bodies generated via shortcuts.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Gotenks had the same drawbacks with Goku. The form lasted for 5 minutes, except for when Goku was dead, and it drained whatever they had if they had something (Goku had his time-limit in the living world, Gotenks had the time-limit of Fusion)

The form itself was stable with Gotenks, he just wasted a lot of ki but never had any trouble with his attacks or movement.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gotenks had the same drawbacks with Goku. The form lasted for 5 minutes, except for when Goku was dead, and it drained whatever they had if they had something (Goku had his time-limit in the living world, Gotenks had the time-limit of Fusion)

The form itself was stable with Gotenks, he just wasted a lot of ki but never had any trouble with his attacks or movement.

No, the kids said that the form lasts for 5 minutes.

[Darkprince410]

Gotenks had the same drawbacks with Goku. The form lasted for 5 minutes, except for when Goku was dead, and it drained whatever they had if they had something (Goku had his time-limit in the living world, Gotenks had the time-limit of Fusion)

The form itself was stable with Gotenks, he just wasted a lot of ki but never had any trouble with his attacks or movement.

It was stable in the sense that he wasn't growing fatigued, but there is an incredible strain on his body all the same, and for those fusions, that's tied to the time limit they can maintain the fusion. Though it's GT, Goku even points out that's why his fusion with Vegeta wore off after ten minutes, because the ki expended as a fused Super Saiya-jin 4 was so great that it wore off early.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Gotenks had the same drawbacks with Goku. The form lasted for 5 minutes, except for when Goku was dead, and it drained whatever they had if they had something (Goku had his time-limit in the living world, Gotenks had the time-limit of Fusion)

The form itself was stable with Gotenks, he just wasted a lot of ki but never had any trouble with his attacks or movement.

No, the kids said that the form lasts for 5 minutes.

Thats the fusion limit, I said the form itself. He had no trouble controlling it whatsoever, its as easy to him as SSJ is to Goku.

[Darkprince410]

Thats the fusion limit, I said the form itself. He had no trouble controlling it whatsoever, its as easy to him as SSJ is to Goku.

The boys however say otherwise.

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of [Boo]!”

Yes, Gotenks' body doesn't show the outward signs of fatigue and stress that Goku's did when he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 3 (heavy breathing and inability to catch his breath, sweating, etc), but the boys both establish that the tremendous power and strain from the form tires them out, uses up all their energy, and prevents them from being able to last for more than five minutes in the form, and that the drain is so great that it even undoes the fusion. They're making it clear that it's the form that's causing problems, just in a slightly different way than with Goku (though Goku burning up a good portion of his time on Earth echoes them burning up their fusion time).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thats the fusion limit, I said the form itself. He had no trouble controlling it whatsoever, its as easy to him as SSJ is to Goku.

Fusion lasts for 30 minutes normally, and after they split, they can merge again immediately. But when they used SS3, the time dropped to 5 minutes, they reverted to base for a while, and then they split, and they had to rest for an hour to merge again.

In both cases (Gotenks vs Evil Boo & Goku vs Pure Boo), SS3 lasted for a few minutes normally (confirmed to be 5 minutes for Gotenks, most likely the same for Goku), but then suddenly, the power dropped, and they reverted to base. Gotenks had an extra problem, his Fusion ended a few seconds after reverting.

Yes, Gotenks' body doesn't show the outward signs of fatigue and stress that Goku's did when he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 3 (heavy breathing and inability to catch his breath, sweating, etc)

Goku seemed to have this problem when he was dead because of his time on the Living World was almost over, since he didn't have this problem when he reverted to base when he was alive, even though he barely had any ki.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

The boys however say otherwise.
Yes, Gotenks' body doesn't show the outward signs of fatigue and stress that Goku's did when he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 3 (heavy breathing and inability to catch his breath, sweating, etc), but the boys both establish that the tremendous power and strain from the form tires them out, uses up all their energy, and prevents them from being able to last for more than five minutes in the form, and that the drain is so great that it even undoes the fusion. They're making it clear that it's the form that's causing problems, just in a slightly different way than with Goku (though Goku burning up a good portion of his time on Earth echoes them burning up their fusion time).

Well there we have some inconsistency then, they never even trained at all in the form but somehow powering up into it was nothing. Granted fusion may allow it so with more energy to pool, but thats only of you'd really go there. To assume fusion handles everyhing. The fusion timer may have limited use of the form but it didnt ever stop them from battle let alone them goofing around within it. They were even able to stay in the bleached-haired casual state in SSJ3; Goku not once ever did that.

[miguelnuva1]

The boys however say otherwise.
Yes, Gotenks' body doesn't show the outward signs of fatigue and stress that Goku's did when he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 3 (heavy breathing and inability to catch his breath, sweating, etc), but the boys both establish that the tremendous power and strain from the form tires them out, uses up all their energy, and prevents them from being able to last for more than five minutes in the form, and that the drain is so great that it even undoes the fusion. They're making it clear that it's the form that's causing problems, just in a slightly different way than with Goku (though Goku burning up a good portion of his time on Earth echoes them burning up their fusion time).

Well there we have some inconsistency then, they never even trained at all in the form but somehow powering up into it was nothing. Granted fusion may allow it so with more energy to pool, but thats only of you'd really go there. To assume fusion handles everyhing. The fusion timer may have limited use of the form but it didnt ever stop them from battle let alone them goofing around within it. They were even able to stay in the bleached-haired casual state in SSJ3; Goku not once ever did that.

If your talking about the white haired no aura look while Goku's hair never looked like that he did go aura less in the anime.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

The boys however say otherwise.
Yes, Gotenks' body doesn't show the outward signs of fatigue and stress that Goku's did when he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 3 (heavy breathing and inability to catch his breath, sweating, etc), but the boys both establish that the tremendous power and strain from the form tires them out, uses up all their energy, and prevents them from being able to last for more than five minutes in the form, and that the drain is so great that it even undoes the fusion. They're making it clear that it's the form that's causing problems, just in a slightly different way than with Goku (though Goku burning up a good portion of his time on Earth echoes them burning up their fusion time).

Well there we have some inconsistency then, they never even trained at all in the form but somehow powering up into it was nothing. Granted fusion may allow it so with more energy to pool, but thats only of you'd really go there. To assume fusion handles everyhing. The fusion timer may have limited use of the form but it didnt ever stop them from battle let alone them goofing around within it. They were even able to stay in the bleached-haired casual state in SSJ3; Goku not once ever did that.

If your talking about the white haired no aura look while Goku's hair never looked like that he did go aura less in the anime.

I considered Goku's SSJ3 to always be at a constant full-powered state. It was never in such control where he could relax in it as Gotenks can.