Episode #0040 (27 August 2006)

[MajinMetroid]

One thing I really like to focus on when thinking about Gohan (which is all the time, obviously) is the fact that between the time Raditz came and Trunks arrives, Gohan has nearly no contact with his father at all, besides fighting beside him or watching him get the crap beat out of him, etc.

One day everything is hunky dorey, "Time to go meet the Turtle Hermit!" and then BAM!, this little boy gets thrown into this intergalactic conflict that isn't really resolved for... I don't know, three years? Someone correct me on that but that's near enough. He's forced to grow up so fast and without his father for the most part. Then, when he finally comes back, it's back to training and fighting.

The only time they get to relax together is that nine day period before the Cell Games and after that, Goku dies again, or sacrifices himself, however you want to look at it.

I've actually been working on an AMV (audience groans) for a long while based on this theme and the fact that Gohan lets everyone down until the Cell fight. I'll post a YouTube link (double groan) to it in the AMV area. Check it out!

[future_trunks]

Great podcast guys, I thought it was interesting how you looked at Gohan's character development.

Keep it up.

[DaemonCorps]

I'm listening to the podcast right now (something's up with my computer and it won't let me play the ep via the mp3 link ) and so far, I'm thinkin' this is a pretty good topic!

Heh, I was thinking of the whole "Gohan was forced to fight and grow up so early" thing last year when my English teacher was talking about Telemachus, for anyone who can relate to that. Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree that the Namek Saga was great because of 1) Gohan's best moments and 2) the sneaking around (awaiting the minutes until FUNi releases it on remastered form [/fangasm]).

And to quote myself:

Now that I think of it, the end of the Cell Games was one of the many points in the story where Toriyama thought about stopping the series, but was forced to stop. He didn't even take the time to name the new stage (er I guess stages) of SSJ, since he thought that that would be the end of the series. So I guess SSJ2 was just some super-magnificent thing that Toriyama wanted to show to make the series end with a bang and some speculation (about Gohan's transformation, in particular), but was just bonked on the head when he found out he had to keep on crankin' out more chapters afterwards.
EDIT: I guess the same thing goes for Goku's transformation at the end of the Freeza Saga.

I just think that the whole idea that Toriyama was thinking of ending the series at said points in the series to be such an interesting thing that makes the series at those points just that much better, because Toriyama's probably thinking, "Oh, since I'm planning on ending the series soon [not], I better make sure to finish it with a bang."

Of course, the whole thought that Toriyama didn't want to continue with the series kinda messed up Gohan's persona in the Buu Saga. It's kinda like everything that was built up in the Cell Saga and previous sagas were just kinda erased. I guess you could consider starting the series from here if you wanted to (hey, it's where I truly started following the series!).

EX, did you seriously not get the Peewee reference from Meri? I dunno, maybe I just watch too much TV...

:gaspgaspgasp:! A DB guide episode?! Thweet! I've been kinda curious about Daizenshu 7, since the only thing I've heard about it is that it's got lots of info and text.

Third ZStore reference in a podcast, for anyone who's counting.

Whew, I finally finished the episode, and it's definitely going in the iPod for sure. .

[Bardock-EX]

That was a great podcast, problaby the best to this point
But Meri said that Gohan never realizes his mistakes in the battle against Vegeta and Nappa. Well...in episode 160 (this is filler) he is training with Goku in the "Room Of Spirit And Time" and he wants Goku to basicly wants him to go all out! Well he does and launches a giant Kamehameha wave at Gohan, as Gohan trys to block it he begins to think of his failures in his fighting career. Gohan thinks of everyone who died against Nappa on the day of the Saiyan's arrival and so Gohan becomes super Saiyan!

[WhatTheDarn]

While most fans seem to feel that the Buu saga is (and I hope I'm using this word correctly) a coda to Gohan's character arc, I've always thought of it as an essential part of his development, perhaps even the most important part.

To understand this, you have to consider the connected character arcs of Goku and Gohan. Throughout pretty much all of Dragonball Z, and especially the Buu saga, Goku is trying to find a successor. He devotes years of his life to training Gohan, but, in what is perhaps the greatest moment of character development for this supposedly limited character, realizes that fighting and killing is not what Gohan wants. He eventually moves on to Gotenks and finally his "true" successor (GT notwithstanding), Uub.

Gohan, meanwhile, is being "forced to grow up" and fight, which he hates. Even before the Buu saga, it has been established that Gohan will fight only when he must. Ending the series with him being the "badass SSJ2 defender of Earth" is enjoyable, but it goes completely against his character. The Buu Saga, however, gives him a peaceful closure as a scholar, husband, and father.

Whether the series ends at the Cell or Buu saga, Gohan feels somewhat incomplete to me. I think that if he had a larger role in the Buu saga, perhaps fusing with Goku to defeat Buu(which is extremely symbolic given the previous points in this essay), his story would have been perfect.


And in a (somewhat) related note, how did Gohan go Super Saiyan in the manga? Are we to assume that he just "trained" his way to it?

[Bardock-EX]

While most fans seem to feel that the Buu saga is (and I hope I'm using this word correctly) a coda to Gohan's character arc, I've always thought of it as an essential part of his development, perhaps even the most important part.

To understand this, you have to consider the connected character arcs of Goku and Gohan. Throughout pretty much all of Dragonball Z, and especially the Buu saga, Goku is trying to find a successor. He devotes years of his life to training Gohan, but, in what is perhaps the greatest moment of character development for this supposedly limited character, realizes that fighting and killing is not what Gohan wants. He eventually moves on to Gotenks and finally his "true" successor (GT notwithstanding), Uub.

Gohan, meanwhile, is being "forced to grow up" and fight, which he hates. Even before the Buu saga, it has been established that Gohan will fight only when he must. Ending the series with him being the "badass SSJ2 defender of Earth" is enjoyable, but it goes completely against his character. The Buu Saga, however, gives him a peaceful closure as a scholar, husband, and father.

Whether the series ends at the Cell or Buu saga, Gohan feels somewhat incomplete to me. I think that if he had a larger role in the Buu saga, perhaps fusing with Goku to defeat Buu(which is extremely symbolic given the previous points in this essay), his story would have been perfect.


And in a (somewhat) related note, how did Gohan go Super Saiyan in the manga? Are we to assume that he just "trained" his way to it?

They don't say but watch episode 160.

[fps_anth]

Great podcast guys! I'm really looking forward to the whole "Daizenshuu" guide that you're gonna do next podcast. I just wanna hear what ones you reccomend buying before others. (btw, Daizenshuu 1 pwns hard. I just got it )

[Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi]

I think I know which version of Cha-la that was. Though I don't know the real name of it, I have an MP3 of it, and it sounds just like it. I was gonna post it in Dragonball Questions and see if someone could tell me what it was, but I guess I'll just post it here for everyone to hear, that is if VegettoEX lets me.

Anyways, this version of Cha-la makes Kageyama sound like a dying old man with lung cancer and a tooth ache. He can't hold a note for more than 1.5 seconds, and all of his words sound all messed up, like this:

Hiffarfu kumo fufinukegheh Fryghhgh Awfrayghgh (Fry Away)

It's very painful to listen to.

EDIT:
I just listened to it again, and let me tell you, he really sounds like he's about to die. It's worse than his performance in "Thank you". I hope I can post the MP3, because I want to know which version this is.

[Sebastian (SB)]

Maybe they're just getting tired after the numerous Dragon Ball related merchandises being released over the past near decade. I mean can you imagine Kageyama in his 80-90s singing CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA?

Of course, my realistic answer would be that they had to use that version of CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA because of the versions that were used in "Dragon Ball Z (Budokai) (Original)" & "Super DBZ (2005 Ver.)", so maybe they didn't have much of a choice?? Honestly I'd rather hear the "Jungle Remix" over this version if they must.

[scottdahl]

Man I'm really starting to like these Podcasts. I find them highly entertaining and I agree with most of the stuff talked about.

I loved the Gohan Disscussionc It would be awsome if this was done with each character.

[Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi]

Maybe they're just getting tired after the numerous Dragon Ball related merchandises being released over the past near decade. I mean can you imagine Kageyama in his 80-90s singing CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA?

Of course, my realistic answer would be that they had to use that version of CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA because of the versions that were used in "Dragon Ball Z (Budokai) (Original)" & "Super DBZ (2005 Ver.)", so maybe they didn't have much of a choice?? Honestly I'd rather hear the "Jungle Remix" over this version if they must.

With the way he's sounding now, I can't imagin how he'll sound then. He's only like 40-50 years old now, and he was younger when he made the version that I mentioned, but him singing Cha-la in his 90's? I'm going deaf just thinking about it.

[uchiha_boy]

First of all likewise to what other people have said about Podcast #40 ^.^
Plus I really enjoyed it since its deals with my favorite DBZ character! So I'm really grateful for that. Anyways my opinion is that yes, I agree with what has been mentioned in the podcast about finishing it with the Cell arc, with Gohan surpassing his father and taking over as the world's protector. But it was really interesting to see Gohan growing up even further into adulthood, also if there was no Buu arc there wouldn't be cute little Goten-chan! lol I swear his just so kawaii! But thats a different matter altogether =P. So I like to see it in two seperate parts in a way. For instance, if it had finished with the Cell arc, I like to see it as how the world has a new hero where Gohan continues to train and protect the Earth as his father did. With the Buu arc, I see it as Gohan achiving three things.

1) Reaching his full potential via the power-up.
2) Becoming a scholar as his mother wanted.
3) Getting married and starting a family.

In other words, as with Gohan being half Saiya-jin and half human, each arc relates to each of his sides. That is, if it had ended with the Cell arc it would have related to his Saiyan-jin side of training and becoming stronger. Whereas at the end of the Buu arc relating to his human side of growing up, having a successful career and starting a family. Kind of abit complex but I'm sure most of you know what I'm trying to say.

One more thing about Gohan (although I don't know if it relates) is how he lacked different special attacks and abilities, yes he has the Masenko, the Kamehameha and Chou Kamehameha. But I think Akira Toriyama could of given him atleast a few more special abilities.

Anyways that what I have to say about this podcast.

Thanks!!!

[DaemonCorps]

Throughout pretty much all of Dragonball Z, and especially the Buu saga, Goku is trying to find a successor.

Hmm, I find your point about Goku finding a successor pretty interesting, especially since it isn't really talked about in the series much.

To me, I think Goku was thinking about this whole thing when Frieza came to Earth, and if not then, then when the RR Androids appeared. Of course, one could also say that the idea of a successor was just kinda an idea that was developing even in early DB, with Pilaf and co. always running into him, and Piccolo coming back as Ma Jr. for revenge. Then again, Goku was still pretty young in those fights and probably wasn't even thinking about a successor until he found that his kid had some potential as well.

So, Goku just sorta puts Gohan in all of these fights (not intentionally, meaning that Goku's not really looking for trouble, right?) just to see if he would respond the same way as a little Goku would to the same situations. Of course, Goku ends up getting told off by Piccolo in the Cell Games when he finds out that Gohan is nothing like him when it comes to fighting and tries to avoid the whole thing entirely if he can (ex: Gohan trying to talk Cell out of fighting before their fight). On the flip side, you see a kid Goku charging into RR HQ just because he finds their idea to be wrong.

Gohan is just too different from Goku, who drops the idea of him being a "true fighter." At this point, you've got to think how messed up this is of Goku, who has potentially just messed Gohan's childhood! Heh, the little comparison of this could be something like a Miss America winner forcing her daughter into pageants ever since she was, like 4. So, to this point, I kinda have to wag my finger at Goku's bad fathering, but at the same time, can get where he's coming from.

Let's just hope that Uub enjoys fighting as much as Goku (let's just totally ignore the plothole that's GT). Otherwise, we'll just have Goku taking away the childhood of kid to kid until he's found the right person :?...

[Sebastian (SB)]

Maybe they're just getting tired after the numerous Dragon Ball related merchandises being released over the past near decade. I mean can you imagine Kageyama in his 80-90s singing CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA?

Of course, my realistic answer would be that they had to use that version of CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA because of the versions that were used in "Dragon Ball Z (Budokai) (Original)" & "Super DBZ (2005 Ver.)", so maybe they didn't have much of a choice?? Honestly I'd rather hear the "Jungle Remix" over this version if they must.

With the way he's sounding now, I can't imagin how he'll sound then. He's only like 40-50 years old now, and he was younger when he made the version that I mentioned, but him singing Cha-la in his 90's? I'm going deaf just thinking about it.

Well that is pretty interesting that you mentioned this particular version of CHA-LA was done in his earlier years.......

[Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi]

Maybe they're just getting tired after the numerous Dragon Ball related merchandises being released over the past near decade. I mean can you imagine Kageyama in his 80-90s singing CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA?

Of course, my realistic answer would be that they had to use that version of CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA because of the versions that were used in "Dragon Ball Z (Budokai) (Original)" & "Super DBZ (2005 Ver.)", so maybe they didn't have much of a choice?? Honestly I'd rather hear the "Jungle Remix" over this version if they must.

With the way he's sounding now, I can't imagin how he'll sound then. He's only like 40-50 years old now, and he was younger when he made the version that I mentioned, but him singing Cha-la in his 90's? I'm going deaf just thinking about it.

Well that is pretty interesting that you mentioned this particular version of CHA-LA was done in his earlier years.......

I don't really get what your trying to hint at.