Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[TheGmGoken]

Someone took that too literally. Center Attention doesn't mean for the entire story. Maybe for the time he was there. That's what he meant. Seeing as they had to hype Broly he did outshine Vegetto just a bit.

[RandomGuy96]

But "Broly is cool"!

I feel like it should also be noted that the "forward" button on the DBM website is Broly's fist.

My opinion is very coherent: I am anti-Broly. Any idea, any use, any plot, becomes irrevocably poisoned by Broly being attached to it. And if elected, I will ban Broly forevermore from this great franchise.

I don't see anything absurd about this.

[Tzigi]

But "Broly is cool"!

Don't you understand that "Broly is cool" was a cool-blooded calculation? If one creates a fan-manga and wants to get people to read it, then the best thing is to make it something special. Broly is a well-known and much debated (as evidenced by this discussion) character for the DB fandom, so he's a perfect one to attract people. So, if Salagir is saying: "Broly is cool", then this phrase has a corollary: "People will read something that includes him.".

It's not the same thing as: "I think that Broly is cool and so I'll center my fancomic around Broly" - I have proven that DBM is in no way centered around Broly.

I feel like it should also be noted that the "forward" button on the DBM website is Broly's fist.

And? The "back" button is Vegetto's fist (and, mind you, the "forward" button doesn't appear at the latest page so every person who reads only the latest page doesn't even see Broly's fist), the favicon is a Varga, the error 404 page is a sketch for page 267 and, to top it all, every page has Vegetto and Gogeta on it - even though Gogeta hasn't appeared yet (and may never appear for all we know). You're drawing conclusions from a random piece of information without considering the whole picture.

[RandomGuy96]

Don't you understand that "Broly is cool" was a cool-blooded calculation? If one creates a fan-manga and wants to get people to read it, then the best thing is to make it something special. Broly is a well-known and much debated (as evidenced by this discussion) character for the DB fandom, so he's a perfect one to attract people. So, if Salagir is saying: "Broly is cool", then this phrase has a corollary: "People will read something that includes him.".

It's not the same thing as: "I think that Broly is cool and so I'll center my fancomic around Broly" - I have proven that DBM is in no way centered around Broly.

He literally said "I decided to take the "Broly's power is constantly growing" option (which is certainly a fan invention) and make him stronger every minute, and thus, at Vegetto's level.
Why? Because Broly is cool ". That's about as clear cut as you can possibly get. "I like him, so I'm gonna give haxxed bullshit powers, make him invincible, and have him become stronger than Vegetto". I don't believe for a minute that it was a "cold-blooded calculation", and that Salagir didn't just really love Broly.

I've considered that as a reason for why he did that, even though he literally says he did it because he thinks Broly is cool. I don't think that's any better of a reason, if true. He'd essentially be catering to the freaking annoying Broly fanboys solely to get more views at the cost of quality. Seriously, Broly fighting on par with Vegetto and being invulnerable is something that only happens in fanboys' wet dreams... and DBM.

And? The "back" button is Vegetto's fist (and, mind you, the "forward" button doesn't appear at the latest page so every person who reads only the latest page doesn't even see Broly's fist), the favicon is a Varga, the error 404 page is a sketch for page 267 and, to top it all, every page has Vegetto and Gogeta on it - even though Gogeta hasn't appeared yet (and may never appear for all we know). You're drawing conclusions from a random piece of information without considering the whole picture.

Vegetto is actually powerful and significant, and apparently an important character in this comic. Broly is not, he's a dumb, irrelevant brute who was just given the ultimate fan-wank because the author likes him. I KNOW the whole picture; I know what chapters Broly is in, I know why Salagir did what he did, and I know what benefits such an approach could have. I just don't like it. Not one bit.

Plus, I never said that there was anything particularly significant about that fist. Just pointing it out.

[rereboy]

I never said that this was inaccurate, I said that your source isn't reliable, since it either comes from an English adaptation (Viz) or a fan scanlation (turns out to be the Viz). It is you who should prove me what it really says in the original version.

I'm sorry, what? I mean WHAT? I provided you with a scan from an OFFICIAL english translation of the manga, and I'm the one that has to prove that it's accurate to the original or, as you say, reliable, instead of you proving that its not?

That notion is just laughable, not to mention that I provided you with much more than just that scan, including a extensive article to reach the conclusion that they are cyborgs.

You missed something else though: she says that they only have a few tiny cybernetic parts that might be the key to their weakness (she says the same thing in the FUNi subs of the anime). As far as we know, the only mechanical parts in them are the mechanics to shut them down, and the bomb.

I missed nothing. I stated from the start that the manga is not clear regarding their components. We have no idea if all their cybernetics do is deactivate them and control the bomb or if they do other stuff as well. You are just assuming they they do nothing more, but there's literally no support for the notion that they do absolutely nothing else in the manga.

It explains why they aren't androids, but not why they are cyborgs. The only cybernetic thing we know that they have is the shut down device & the bomb. Though, I guess just by that we could call them cyborgs?

Maybe you should actually read the conclusions provided in the article:

- A cyborg is a human being that integrates or enhances itself with external feedback systems, be they mechanical, chemical or otherwise.
- A cyborg is not a robot, since it has a human base, and is therefore not an android.
- #17 and #18 were previously humans before their forceful modification by Dr. Gero.
- In fact, very few mechanical parts are inside them, as they were largely enhanced with bio-organic materials
- However, the definition of "jinzouningen" explicitly excludes the "cyborg", otherwise called "kaizouningen" in Japanese.
- To confound this, there are multiple examples across Dragon Ball canon which labels #17 and #18 as "jinzouningen", while they are simultaneously described to be otherwise, i.e. cyborgs.

The article fully explains why they should be called cyborgs even though they are often called androids, mentioning that they have mechanicals parts in them but are mostly organic and human. You just have to read.

It's a logical assumption for DBM to make when they assume that that #17 & #18 are remodeled using mechanical parts. Why would they get weaker and need maintenance when their energy source, and their limbs are organic?

Just one of the things that we know their cybernetics regulate, namely, their "hibernation" or "stand by" mode, is enough to explain their loss of power if the degradation of that particular "shut down" mechanism makes their bodies slowly shut down its functions over time (instead of a complete shut down when its correctly activated). And, on top of that, their cybernetics can interact and regulate a great number of things in their enhanced bodies that we don't know of.

There's literally nothing in DBM's assumption that actually contradicts the manga. Period.

Babidi was very powerful by himself already, and he even wanted to kill Kaioshin by himself anyway. Kibito was much weaker, and he also didn't know that Kaioshin would need help. Besides, he could have revived Boo instantly with Vegeta's energy, and he wouldn't need to have him fight with Goku. He could even use Dabra's energy to revive Boo, if you believe that he fought SS2 Gohan (but let's not talk about this). And Babidi himself said that he didn't need anyone else when he had Boo with him. And given to how impatient Babidi was to revive Boo, it really doesn't make any sense for him not using Dabra (if you think he is on SS2 Gohan level) or Vegeta after he had filled half of Boo's energy with Gohan's energy. And we are even told that the good guys have to get damaged for energy to be transfered, not the bad guys. Only when Goku, and only Goku specifically, got damaged from Vegeta was Boo filled with energy. Pui Pui, Yakon, and Vegeta did get damaged, yet nowhere was it said that they gave energy to Boo. In fact, the opposite was stated for the first two.

And where did you get the "pure energy to revive Boo"? The manga says that good energy is absorbed by the ship and gathered in Boo's ball.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 60#p738875
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 01#p739193
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 01#p739201

So, I really don't see the argument here. Babidi's henchmen never transfered energy to Boo when they got damaged, Babidi never used any of his henchmen to donate energy even though he would have revived Boo instantly if he had done so, and we were told that only good energy can be used.

Babidi is incredibly weak. He is just good at using magic. Without bodyguards he is very vulnerable and someone like Piccolo or even weaker can kill him easily, as it was demonstrated when Piccolo ripped him in half easily. And Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Piccolo.

If he made his bodyguards weak, he would be leaving himself much more vulnerable, which was what happened in the special. This is basic strategy. In fact, Babidi has at least one bodyguard that is actually stronger than the person that is hunting him (Kaioshin). Considering that Kaioshin can attack at any moment, making that bodyguard weaker and lower his power to a level where he might not be stronger than Kaioshin is completely stupid. Any way you look at it, its incredibly stupid. Its way smarter to keep them at full power and collect energy patiently from other sources.

As for the pure energy, that's what Kibito says they are after to revive Buu while they are flying in the english manga.

As for the topics you posted and that I read carefully, they are about Babidi's SHIP and the original japanese is only explaining how THE SHIP works and stating that it only absorbs good energy. It doesn't actually say that Buu himself can only receive good energy no matter the method. And how did Dabra actually give energy to Buu in the special? That's right, he gave it directly, with some sort of umbilical cord or something, he didn't use the same method to give it.

And frankly, it makes perfect sense that only the ship works in that way (capable of only getting good energy) since Spopovich and his partner were clearly only caring about levels of powers, not if it was actually good, and the energy they collected was inserted directly into Buu's ball.

So, once again, I see no contradiction.

[goku the krump dancer]

I agree with everything that Tzigi is saying and I don't believe you have to be a Broly fan (which I am) to see it that way as well.

Despite his lack of "Depth", Broly is an insanely popular character and not just in America either(there's a reason he was the first to get a what-if transformation in Dragon Battlers). Salagir could have teased ANY battle in the beginning of the comic but he chose Broly vs A Goku/Vegeta fusion because he knows how popular that scene was in Budokai 3 and he knew it would draw people in.. Which it did.

Besides, regardless of how people feel about the power levels of other characters, the main story has progressed just fine since the big guy's inevitable departure. Boo quickly stole Broly's thunder as top villain once he became incapacitated.

The only way I could buy Salagir being a "Broly is god" fanboy is if he some how makes his way back into the story.

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

You know, now that Raichi knows King Cold has additional forms, why did he not summon him in his final form? And Coola for that matter?

Not that it matters, Vegeta's gonna stomp either way.

[KentalSSJ6]

Asura's art is orgasmic.

[Tzigi]

Asura's art is orgasmic.

Yes, it is. And, from what I've seen from the upcoming pages, it continues to be so. The plot also gives him many chances to deploy his talent (yes, yes, it's rule of cool all the way through this chapter - and paired with Asura's gorgeous art, it's wonderful).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm sorry, what? I mean WHAT? I provided you with a scan from an OFFICIAL english translation of the manga, and I'm the one that has to prove that it's accurate to the original or, as you say, reliable, instead of you proving that its not?

That notion is just laughable, not to mention that I provided you with much more than just that scan, including a extensive article to reach the conclusion that they are cyborgs.

Given to the fact that the Viz manga is an English adaptation, and the fact that it changes things all the time, yes, you have to prove me what it says in the original. The FUNi dub, along with every dub, is also official, but far from accurate. So, being official doesn't mean anything.

I missed nothing. I stated from the start that the manga is not clear regarding their components. We have no idea if all their cybernetics do is deactivate them and control the bomb or if they do other stuff as well. You are just assuming they they do nothing more, but there's literally no support for the notion that they do absolutely nothing else in the manga.

How is it not clear? It is stated that there are only a few cybernetic parts in them that are related to their weakness, which is their shut down device, and there is also a bomb.

Maybe you should actually read the conclusions provided in the article:

- A cyborg is a human being that integrates or enhances itself with external feedback systems, be they mechanical, chemical or otherwise.
- A cyborg is not a robot, since it has a human base, and is therefore not an android.
- #17 and #18 were previously humans before their forceful modification by Dr. Gero.
- In fact, very few mechanical parts are inside them, as they were largely enhanced with bio-organic materials
- However, the definition of "jinzouningen" explicitly excludes the "cyborg", otherwise called "kaizouningen" in Japanese.
- To confound this, there are multiple examples across Dragon Ball canon which labels #17 and #18 as "jinzouningen", while they are simultaneously described to be otherwise, i.e. cyborgs.

The article fully explains why they should be called cyborgs even though they are often called androids, mentioning that they have mechanicals parts in them but are mostly organic and human. You just have to read.

I read the whole thing, and it only proves that they are not androids. They seem to be technically cyborgs though, but I don't think it's appropriate to call them like that, since they barely have anything mechanical in them. It's like calling Luke Skywalker from Star Wars a cyborg.

There's literally nothing in DBM's assumption that actually contradicts the manga. Period.

And I disagree.

Babidi is incredibly weak. He is just good at using magic. Without bodyguards he is very vulnerable and someone like Piccolo or even weaker can kill him easily, as it was demonstrated when Piccolo ripped him in half easily. And Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Piccolo.

Kaioshin still considered him dangerous. Not saying that he can't kill him, since he killed Bibidi, and as you said about Piccolo, but he is still dangerous.

If he made his bodyguards weak, he would be leaving himself much more vulnerable, which was what happened in the special. This is basic strategy. In fact, Babidi has at least one bodyguard that is actually stronger than the person that is hunting him (Kaioshin). Considering that Kaioshin can attack at any moment, making that bodyguard weaker and lower his power to a level where he might not be stronger than Kaioshin is completely stupid. Any way you look at it, its incredibly stupid. Its way smarter to keep them at full power and collect energy patiently from other sources.

But why didn't he call Vegeta to return to the spaceship & take his energy? Why did he have him fight with Goku? You still didn't explain that.

As for the pure energy, that's what Kibito says they are after to revive Buu while they are flying in the english manga.

The FUNi subs say "unpolluted" energy.

As for the topics you posted and that I read carefully, they are about Babidi's SHIP and the original japanese is only explaining how THE SHIP works and stating that it only absorbs good energy. It doesn't actually say that Buu himself can only receive good energy no matter the method. And how did Dabra actually give energy to Buu in the special? That's right, he gave it directly, with some sort of umbilical cord or something, he didn't use the same method to give it.

Why would Babidi be so stupid to make the spaceship absorb only the energy of his enemies? How did he even do that if his fighters are no different from the others?

Spopovich and his partner were clearly only caring about levels of powers, not if it was actually good, and the energy they collected was inserted directly into Buu's ball.

And there is not a chance that their measuring device only measures energy that can be used for Boo, right?

[rereboy]

Given to the fact that the Viz manga is an English adaptation, and the fact that it changes things all the time, yes, you have to prove me what it says in the original. The FUNi dub, along with every dub, is also official, but far from accurate. So, being official doesn't mean anything.

Really...?

The FUNI Dub has already been repeatedly PROVEN to be VERY inaccurate. Hence, why almost nobody takes its accuracy very seriously.

Did this happen with Viz? Not at all. In fact, as it has been repeatedly verified, its almost always accurate to the meaning of the original with only sporadic cases of actual wrong translation.

So, no, I don't have to prove you a thing. You put into question an official translation not known to be very inaccurate at all, and that its known instead to be almost always accurate to the meaning of the original with only sporadic cases of actual wrong translation. Either back up the claim that what was on the page is inaccurate or I'll just do with your claim what should be done: to be ignored.

How is it not clear? It is stated that there are only a few cybernetic parts in them that are related to their weakness, which is their shut down device, and there is also a bomb.

What...? Bulma is simply saying that those cybernetics MIGHT be related to their weakness and no where is it stated that she is SURE that they ONLY do that. Seriously, do you only interpret things how you please or do actually use logic in your interpretation...?

I read the whole thing, and it only proves that they are not androids. They seem to be technically cyborgs though, but I don't think it's appropriate to call them like that, since they barely have anything mechanical in them. It's like calling Luke Skywalker from Star Wars a cyborg.

Er... Apparently, no, you didn't read it, otherwise you would read those conclusions and see that he is including them in the definition of cyborgs and explaining it. And I'm sorry, but there are no "degrees" in the definition of cyborg. It doesn't matter if the artificial parts are just a little part of the being or a big part. You don't get to redefine the term based on percentages of artificial parts just because you feel like it. Luke Skywalker became a cyborg because what he became fits the description and definition of a cyborg. Period.

And I disagree.

Really? I barely noticed at all... Unfortunately, what I've noticed so far is a complete lack of reasonable arguments to back up your position. Now you are arguing that the term shouldn't be applied to someone who doesn't have many mechanical parts just because you feel like it.

Kaioshin still considered him dangerous. Not saying that he can't kill him, since he killed Bibidi, and as you said about Piccolo, but he is still dangerous.

Never said that Babidi wasn't dangerous. What I said was that without bodyguards or with weak bodyguards Babidi is extremely vulnerable, which is true.

But why didn't he call Vegeta to return to the spaceship & take his energy? Why did he have him fight with Goku? You still didn't explain that.

And Kaioshin, Gohan and Goku, who were actively seeking the destruction of Babidi, would just sit around and wait as that happened? If Vegeta returned to the spaceship to Babidi's side, they would simply follow him and they would try to stop them and kill Babidi, as they had been doing. Not to mention that trying to make your bodyguards weak as you are being attacked is even more stupid than making your bodyguards weak when you are in danger of being attacked but not actually under attack yet.

The FUNi subs say "unpolluted" energy.

Seems to be basically the same thing, just different ways of putting it.

Why would Babidi be so stupid to make the spaceship absorb only the energy of his enemies? How did he even do that if his fighters are no different from the others?

His fighters are different from the others just from the fact that all of his fighters have been subjected to his magic. As for why Babidi's ship works that way, I have no idea, just as I have no idea how Badidi's magic works in general since it wasn't explained in the manga. What I do know is that that page is only talking about Babidi's ship, not about Buu, nor is it ever stated in there that Buu can only receive good energy, nor anywhere else.

All this argument was about contradicting the manga and we have now established that no where in the manga is it ever stated or demonstrated that Buu can only receive energy from good people, and that good energy is only mentioned in regards to the energy that Babidi's ship can absorb and nowhere else.

And there is not a chance that their measuring device only measures energy that can be used for Boo, right?

There's a chance of that but its unlikely since its never mentioned that it had to be energy from good people, not even when Babidi is talking about the number of people from which they must have gotten the energy from, and not even when Kibito talks about it and talks about it being pure or unpolluted energy instead of talking about good energy. The term good only appears in relation to Babidi's ship, nothing more, so it seems unlikely.

Notice that I'm not claiming that you CAN'T interpret it that way, I'm simply trying to make you realize that that's not the only interpretation at all and in fact might not even be the most likely interpretation at all. For DBM to contradict the manga, it had to be something that actually contradicted something that is clear in the manga. This is not clear at all in the manga and what DBM offered is perfectly consistent with a logical, reasonable and even likely interpretation of the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

Aren't the Ghost Warriors supposed to be way stronger than the originals? If they're not, why did Raichi even bother summoning Cooler, Freeza, and Cold to fight a SS2-level opponent?

[rereboy]

Aren't the Ghost Warriors supposed to be way stronger than the originals? If they're not, why did Raichi even bother summoning Cooler, Freeza, and Cold to fight a SS2-level opponent?

They are. Also, Raichi has most likely never fought an opponent nearly as strong as this Vegeta (directly or otherwise).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Did this happen with Viz? Not at all. In fact, as it has been repeatedly verified, its almost always accurate to the meaning of the original with only sporadic cases of actual wrong translation.

It has. It's not terribly inaccurate, but it has inaccuracies. It said simply "energy" instead of "good energy" in the description of Babidi's spaceship, it made up a backstory for Mr. Satan Ηercule, it omitted the line about Oozaru making the Saiyans x10 stronger, etc. Herms rated it 7/10. So yes, you have to prove that the lines you use are also in the original if you want to use them as evidence.

What...? Bulma is simply saying that those cybernetics MIGHT be related to their weakness and no where is it stated that she is SURE that they ONLY do that. Seriously, do you only interpret things how you please or do actually use logic in your interpretation...?

And we later learn that they ARE related to their weakness. And if you want to bring the Daizenshuu in the discussion, the shut down device & the bomb are indeed the only parts there.

Er... Apparently, no, you didn't read it, otherwise you would read those conclusions and see that he is including them in the definition of cyborgs and explaining it. And I'm sorry, but there are no "degrees" in the definition of cyborg. It doesn't matter if the artificial parts are just a little part of the being or a big part. You don't get to redefine the term based on percentages of artificial parts just because you feel like it. Luke Skywalker became a cyborg because what he became fits the description and definition of a cyborg. Period.

I'm not familiar with cyborgs, so I guess you are right about that. But the use of the word "cyborg" isn't my main issue, it's the fact that DBM treats them as if they are machines.

And Kaioshin, Gohan and Goku, who were actively seeking the destruction of Babidi, would just sit around and wait as that happened? If Vegeta returned to the spaceship to Babidi's side, they would simply follow him and they would try to stop them and kill Babidi, as they had been doing. Not to mention that trying to make your bodyguards weak as you are being attacked is even more stupid than making your bodyguards weak when you are in danger of being attacked but not actually under attack yet.

They can't simply follow Vegeta, like they couldn't simply follow Dabra when he left, and they couldn't simply go to Babidi straight away.

This is not clear at all in the manga and what DBM offered is perfectly consistent with a logical, reasonable and even likely interpretation of the manga.

• Spopovitch & Yamu hunt down unpolluted energy.
• Babidi's spaceship absorbs only good energy.
• Babidi never uses any means to absorb energy from any of his henchmen, even when he has the chance, and even when it will revive Boo.

It's clear enough to me that DBM offered a very unlikely interpretation of the manga, which makes Babidi incredibly stupid, in both the manga & DBM.

[goku the krump dancer]

I feel like this could possibly end in a draw. While Vegeta may have the power advantage, he doesn't know about the "ghost warriors", so he might realize what's going on at the last second, kill Raichi but be too weary and possibly injured to continue.

[mAcChaos]

Cold died there with a hole in his chest. I wonder if that counts as dying the same way as Trunks killed him.

[FoolsGil]

Raichi could win this. Vegeta has a finite supply of energy. As long as Raichi can escape physical damage, he can force Vegeta to exhaustion.

[Hellspawn28]

Aren't the Ghost Warriors supposed to be way stronger than the originals? If they're not, why did Raichi even bother summoning Cooler, Freeza, and Cold to fight a SS2-level opponent?

He most likely didn't know that Vegeta would be this strong. My money is that Vegeta wins this and he will end up using the Elder Kaioshin to become Mystic or become U13 Vegito. If Vegeta wins then he is no match for Gast Carcolh.

[Marco Polo]

Good art but pointless page.

[xmysticgohanx]

He most likely didn't know that Vegeta would be this strong. My money is that Vegeta wins this and he will end up using the Elder Kaioshin to become Mystic or become U13 Vegito. If Vegeta wins then he is no match for Gast Carcolh.

I doubt they would agree to permanent fusion.