Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense...

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense, why I say this: Goku on Namek after making the genki-dama, he is severely injured, and Goku is barely standing. I mean, he had to have lost a large part of his CHI after take the beating from Frieza. He seems to have little Chi (or almost none).

If the Super Saiyan is a multiplier, the multiplication increases the base power of the user, but if Goku is all exhausted and without energy even though he had an increase of 50 times the base power, Frieza only by using 50% of his full power, he could destroy Goku with a couple of strokes.

The Super Saiyan be a huge reservoir of pure energy that any Saiyan could access when necessary,makes better sense within the context of the manga.

[Hitiro]

Some people believe the initial transformation had a recovery effect on Goku. The reason for this is even if it gave Goku more ki as opposed to a multiplier he would still be too injured and fatigued to make use of the ki. So the transformation must have restored his body a bit which would have given him back ki as well. Also, while Freeza wasn't using his full power he was also injured by the Genki Dama. Freeza probably used quite a lot of energy to escape dying by the Genki Dama. The Daizenshuu places both their battle powers at 150 million and 120 million respectively, however those battle powers are probably what they would be without any damage rather than their actual battle powers during the fight.

[Bullza]

Frieza would have been pretty exhausted himself though wouldn't he? The Spirit Bomb almost killed him.

[Blade]

The multipliers are join-the-dots retrospective statements for the guidebooks and other supplemental information. If a transformation multiplier doesn't make sense in a given instance of the story, that's because they were never a factor in Toriyama's thinking when he was writing the manga.

Furthermore, with Battle of Gods, any form of previously existing transformation logic has been more or less tossed aside completely. We now know that a regular Super Saiyan is able to surpass a Super Saiyan 3, and that Toriyama now regards that form as being the optimal transformation. Even if the regular Super Saiyan strength multiplier was x50 in the past, from now on, it's going to be whatever-the-hell-it-needs-to-be when the story calls for it more than it ever has before.

[freezamite]

Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense, why I say this: Goku on Namek after making the genki-dama, he is severely injured, and Goku is barely standing. I mean, he had to have lost a large part of his CHI after take the beating from Freeza. He seems to have little Chi (or almost none).

That's because the first time Goku transforms, the transformation is triggered by the "rage" of seeing Krilin dying. So for one part Goku regains his full power through the rage and then the SSJ multiplies it by 10.

The reason for this is even if it gave Goku more ki as opposed to a multiplier he would still be too injured and fatigued to make use of the ki. So the transformation must have restored his body a bit which would have given him back ki as well.

Nope. The reason to think that Goku regained his strength is not "he would be too injured to fight if this wasn't the case", because that would be just a supposition. Chapter 325 on the other hand is the proof that Goku also regained his strength, or the multiple times Gohan enrages and regains all the power he had previously lost.

Also, while Freeza wasn't using his full power he was also injured by the Genki Dama. Freeza probably used quite a lot of energy to escape dying by the Genki Dama.
The Daizenshuu places both their battle powers at 150 million and 120 million respectively, however those battle powers are probably what they would be without any damage rather than their actual battle powers during the fight.

While its true that Freezer lost a lot of energy because of the Genkidama, I wouldn't assume that the Daizenshuu took that into account. The Daizenshuu's section about battle powers contradicts the manga dozens of times. It's like they grabbed a random guy and told him "hey read the manga in five minutes and put some power numbers on the people that didn't have them on the manga" and so they came with conclusions like "Raditz is 1500 but then it was destroyed by a single 1307 blow or is considered to be on par with a 1200 saibamen" or "Nappa was 4000 but he managed to fight Goku at 8000 quite well", etc. etc.

Freeza would have been pretty exhausted himself though wouldn't he? The Spirit Bomb almost killed him.

Yes he was. Considering the strength Goku (and almost every untrained SSJ) had, he was at around 30% of his maximum strength when the last round of the fight started.

If a transformation multiplier doesn't make sense in a given instance of the story, that's because they were never a factor in Toriyama's thinking when he was writing the manga.

I personally don't have a problem with multipliers being applied in the SSJ transformations, but I think that there's a huge problem when people gives random multipliers like "SSJ1 is x50" when (in that case) it was pretty obvious in the manga that the SSJ1 evolved from it's untrained stages to the "full power" form and that the strength of the fighters increased consequently (which meant that the multiplier wasn't the same).

SSJ1 for example would go from it's original 10x to for example x40-x50 once dominated (remember that the sayans doesn't become stronger in their base state once they reach the SSJ form).
So while giving multipliers is not bad in my opinion, of course giving multipliers that contradict the manga it's even much worse than not giving them!

[Saiga]

The multipliers are join-the-dots retrospective statements for the guidebooks and other supplemental information. If a transformation multiplier doesn't make sense in a given instance of the story, that's because they were never a factor in Toriyama's thinking when he was writing the manga.

Of course they were, Toriyama himself said as much. For starters, he used actual multipliers in the story and even gauged other characters against multipliers he wasn't using (comparing a weakened Oozaru Vegeta to a hypothetical Kaio-ken x5 Goku) and he also spoke about what he thought about the Super Saiyan multiplier while writing the story. It's certainly not something thought of after the fact going off what Toriyama has said himself.

[freezamite]

The multipliers are join-the-dots retrospective statements for the guidebooks and other supplemental information. If a transformation multiplier doesn't make sense in a given instance of the story, that's because they were never a factor in Toriyama's thinking when he was writing the manga.

Of course they were, Toriyama himself said as much. For starters, he used actual multipliers in the story and even gauged other characters against multipliers he wasn't using (comparing a weakened Oozaru Vegeta to a hypothetical Kaio-ken x5 Goku) and he also spoke about what he thought about the Super Saiyan multiplier while writing the story. It's certainly not something thought of after the fact going off what Toriyama has said himself.

Wow! I knew about him confirming that SSJ was originally a 10x multiplier, but can you give me a link to the interview where he explains in more detail the multipliers he used as a reference?
That would be great!!!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Here is all that he says:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

[freezamite]

Here is all that he says:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

Thank you very much! I already knew about that quote and I was glad that he confirmed personally what was already drawn on the manga (and the anime managed to destroy somehow making a lot of fans think about huge multipliers and astronomic battle power units). So in the end he never talked about Oozaru being like KKx5 then, did he?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Kaio-ken x5 & Oozaru thing is from the manga. Saiga didn't say that Oozaru is like KKx5, he said that Toriyama compared Oozaru with KKx5, by mentioning the Oozaru's multiplier being x10 comparing to Kaio-ken's maximum at that point multiplier, which was x5.

And it doesn't sound like Toriyama says that the multiplier is x10. It sounds more like x50 was already established when he was drawing the manga, but he had x10 in his mind because x50 sounded to him too big.

[freezamite]

The Kaio-ken x5 & Oozaru thing is from the manga. Saiga didn't say that Oozaru is like KKx5, he said that Toriyama compared Oozaru with KKx5, by mentioning the Oozaru's multiplier being x10 comparing to Kaio-ken's maximum at that point multiplier, which was x5.

What? I don't understand that. I mean, in the manga there's no KKx5, if it wasn't in one of those extra pages that sometimes are published on the volumes that then never arrive here in the west (at least not in my country) then I don't know when that comparison is made.

And it doesn't sound like Toriyama says that the multiplier is x10. It sounds more like x50 was already established when he was drawing the manga, but he had x10 in his mind because x50 sounded to him too big.

How was x50 established if he drew it with 10x on mind? x50 contradicts the manga in dozens of places, while x10 (as far as I know) is completely in line with what's shown (as far as I know).

[Tyro]

The Kaio-ken x5 & Oozaru thing is from the manga. Saiga didn't say that Oozaru is like KKx5, he said that Toriyama compared Oozaru with KKx5, by mentioning the Oozaru's multiplier being x10 comparing to Kaio-ken's maximum at that point multiplier, which was x5.

What? I don't understand that. I mean, in the manga there's no KKx5, if it wasn't in one of those extra pages that sometimes are published on the volumes that then never arrive here in the west (at least not in my country) then I don't know when that comparison is made.

When Goku is fighting Oozaru Vegeta he says:

Chapter: 233 (DBZ 39), P11.3
Goku: “Even if I raise the Kaio-Ken to x5, it still won't have any effect on him!!!!”
Goku (VIZ): "But my only chance-- is to increase my power!!!!"

Very odd translations at that time, indeed. They even glossed over the Oozaru = 10x bit.

Chapter: 233 (DBZ 39), P6.2
Oozaru Vegeta: “Wanna hear something good?... When Saiyans become Oozaru, their battle power becomes 10 times what it is as a human!!!!"
Oozaru Vegeta (VIZ): "A Saiyan is most powerful in its ape form! A Saiyan...that still has its tail!!"

Even stranger, people don't mind these translations. I remember before Herms started taking translations requests on MFG that we all assumed that Oozaru = 10x was just anime filler.

[xmysticgohanx]

And it doesn't sound like Toriyama says that the multiplier is x10. It sounds more like x50 was already established when he was drawing the manga, but he had x10 in his mind because x50 sounded to him too big.

How was x50 established if he drew it with 10x on mind? x50 contradicts the manga in dozens of places, while x10 (as far as I know) is completely in line with what's shown (as far as I know).

But that would mean SSJ is worse than Kaioken.

[Rocketman]

It doesn't make sense because Super Saiyan was originally the legendary unstoppable warrior. So obviously Goku would be healed up fully when he assumes demigod status.

[Low Tone G]

And it doesn't sound like Toriyama says that the multiplier is x10. It sounds more like x50 was already established when he was drawing the manga, but he had x10 in his mind because x50 sounded to him too big.

How was x50 established if he drew it with 10x on mind? x50 contradicts the manga in dozens of places, while x10 (as far as I know) is completely in line with what's shown (as far as I know).

But that would mean SSJ is worse than Kaioken.

I think Toriyama believed that KK 20X Goku was normal Goku, and making him tenfold stronger was more than enough to surpass Frieza.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What? I don't understand that. I mean, in the manga there's no KKx5, if it wasn't in one of those extra pages that sometimes are published on the volumes that then never arrive here in the west (at least not in my country) then I don't know when that comparison is made.

It never happened, but Goku mentioned it.

How was x50 established if he drew it with 10x on mind? x50 contradicts the manga in dozens of places, while x10 (as far as I know) is completely in line with what's shown (as far as I know).

Where does the x50 contradict the manga?

[freezamite]

When Goku is fighting Oozaru Vegeta he says:

Chapter: 233 (DBZ 39), P11.3
Goku: “Even if I raise the Kaio-Ken to x5, it still won't have any effect on him!!!!”
Goku (VIZ): "But my only chance-- is to increase my power!!!!"

Very odd translations at that time, indeed. They even glossed over the Oozaru = 10x bit.

Wow! I wasn't aware of that! Normally I rely on the catalan translation of the manga which had the "Oozaru = 10x" comparison, but instead of Goku saying "Even if I raise the Kaio-Ken to x5" it has "Even if I use all my power" on it (assuming this is the page just after goku realizes that he was the one he killed his grandfather).

Although at the state Goku was at that point, that "KKx5" comparison is meaningless in terms of approaching Vegeta's strength at that point, since Goku was so exhausted after the KKx4 that I doubt a KKx5 at that point could've had even the same strength that Goku had with a KKx2 at the start of the fight.

But that would mean SSJ is worse than Kaioken.

I don't think so. That would just mean that the upper level of KK can give a higher power burst than the untrained SSJ transformation, but in terms of potential (SSJ is much stronger than any seen KK once dominated) as well as practical use (KK destroys the body by forcing it while SSJ is just a transformation that puts a bit of extra-strain into it) SSJ is much better (not that they're the same btw. KK was a technique, while SSJ was a transformation).

I think Toriyama believed that KK 20X Goku was normal Goku, and making him tenfold stronger was more than enough to surpass Freeza.

No, that doesn't make any sense considering how the fight between 100% injured Freezer and SSJ restored Goku went.

It never happened, but Goku mentioned it.

Yes, I didn't know it said that and that's why I couldn't understand the whole point.

Where does the x50 contradict the manga?

In multiple places. Firstly, on the part where Goku explains the reason Freezer can't keep up. x50 would mean that at that point Goku was 25% stronger than Freezer even if Freezer had been in full condition and we all know what happens in DB with a 25% of power difference in favour of someone (and even less than that).
What actually happened is that even injured, 100% Freezer achieved to fight evenly with SSJ Goku for a short period of time, only to be surpassed after it's power started to decrease.

Freezer, even after being severely injured with Goku's Genkidama (and loosing a bit more of energy due to Goku's beating after that), managed to reach the same power level of SSJ Goku, whose power had been restored by the rage (as chapter 325 demonstrates). I think that those facts can't be explained with the x50 boost, while they're perfectly explained with a 10x boost.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Both Goku and Freeza were injured, meaning that their battle power had decreased by an unknown number. So, Goku & Freeza could have been closer in power due to their injuries.

[rereboy]

Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense, why I say this: Goku on Namek after making the genki-dama, he is severely injured, and Goku is barely standing. I mean, he had to have lost a large part of his CHI after take the beating from Freeza. He seems to have little Chi (or almost none).

If the Super Saiyan is a multiplier, the multiplication increases the base power of the user, but if Goku is all exhausted and without energy even though he had an increase of 50 times the base power, Freeza only by using 50% of his full power, he could destroy Goku with a couple of strokes.

The Super Saiyan be a huge reservoir of pure energy that any Saiyan could access when necessary,makes better sense within the context of the manga.

Freeza was also damaged, so he had also lost a great deal of power. That alone destroys your argument.

[freezamite]

Both Goku and Freeza were injured, meaning that their battle power had decreased by an unknown number. So, Goku & Freeza could have been closer in power due to their injuries.

While its true that both of them are injured, Goku had at that point regained all his strength due to the rage (Chapter 325) so it's not a factor when speaking about Goku's strength at that point of the series.
If Goku regains his strength because of Krilin's death, then the x50 is impossible going by the facts.