Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense...

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense, why I say this: Goku on Namek after making the genki-dama, he is severely injured, and Goku is barely standing. I mean, he had to have lost a large part of his CHI after take the beating from Freeza. He seems to have little Chi (or almost none).

That's because the first time Goku transforms, the transformation is triggered by the "rage" of seeing Krilin dying. So for one part Goku regains his full power through the rage and then the SSJ multiplies it by 10.

So why, when Super Saiyan Goku was fighting Yakon, the difference between Goku and Yakon was slightly larger than 3.5 (800 vs 3000). It is impossible base Goku to have 60 and Goku avoided a lot of attacks from Yakon in his base form. I mean if the power Goku was 60, Yakon could defeat Goku easily. Base Goku should be at least 750 to counterattack Yakon in its base form.

[freezamite]

So why, when Super Saiyan Goku was fighting Yakon, the difference between Goku and Yakon was slightly larger than 3.5 (800 vs 3000). It is impossible base Goku to have 60 and Goku avoided a lot of attacks from Yakon in his base form. I mean if the power Goku was 60, Yakon could defeat Goku easily. Base Goku should be at least 750 to counterattack Yakon in its base form.

Yakon wasn't fighting seriously against Goku, and Goku barely managed to dodge Yakon's attacks (this is why he transforms so fast in the fight). That's like when Goku could dodge a couple of Oozaru Vegeta attacks using KKx2, even when he already knew that in a serious fight not even with KKx5 he could have won at that point.

Furthermore, I doubt those 3000 were the maximum energy Goku could reach as a SSJ, so he may have perfectly been 9000 in SSJ using his full power (that would explains why Dabra was so confident about being able to win even going against all of them when he was way weaker than a SSJ2).

[DannyDBZfanforever]

So why, when Super Saiyan Goku was fighting Yakon, the difference between Goku and Yakon was slightly larger than 3.5 (800 vs 3000). It is impossible base Goku to have 60 and Goku avoided a lot of attacks from Yakon in his base form. I mean if the power Goku was 60, Yakon could defeat Goku easily. Base Goku should be at least 750 to counterattack Yakon in its base form.

Yakon wasn't fighting seriously against Goku, and Goku barely managed to dodge Yakon's attacks (this is why he transforms so fast in the fight). That's like when Goku could dodge a couple of Oozaru Vegeta attacks using KKx2, even when he already knew that in a serious fight not even with KKx5 he could have won at that point.

Furthermore, I doubt those 3000 were the maximum energy Goku could reach as a SSJ, so he may have perfectly been 9000 in SSJ using his full power (that would explains why Dabra was so confident about being able to win even going against all of them when he was way weaker than a SSJ2).

In Daizenshuu, in Dabra biography was written that he fought Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (I find it hard to believe, but okay). I find it a bit strange that Gohan stated he and Goku could beat Yakon in their base forms. Even in the dark, they could feel the evil Chi of Yakon. Or you think that base Gohan is more powerful at this point that base Goku. You also believe that Super Saiyan 2 multiplies the strength of a SSJ 1 by 2 and Super Saiyan 3 multiplies the strength of a SSJ 2 by 4 (information taken from Super Exciting Guides).

[Hitiro]

While its true that both of them are injured, Goku had at that point regained all his strength due to the rage (Chapter 325) so it's not a factor when speaking about Goku's strength at that point of the series.
If Goku regains his strength because of Krilin's death, then the x50 is impossible going by the facts.

Well there is no actual proof he regained all of his strength. For all we know it gave him a portion of his strength back. Regardless, I don't see how it is impossible for him to get 50x boost even if the transformation gave all his strength back.

Furthermore, I doubt those 3000 were the maximum energy Goku could reach as a SSJ, so he may have perfectly been 9000 in SSJ using his full power (that would explains why Dabra was so confident about being able to win even going against all of them when he was way weaker than a SSJ2).

I agree Goku was holding back in SSJ. But I don't think the Kiri system is a linear system. It is probably more of a logarithmic system where you need more power to get another Kiri unit.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku had at that point regained all his strength due to the rage (Chapter 325)

When was that stated?

[DieHard]

So why, when Super Saiyan Goku was fighting Yakon, the difference between Goku and Yakon was slightly larger than 3.5 (800 vs 3000). It is impossible base Goku to have 60 and Goku avoided a lot of attacks from Yakon in his base form. I mean if the power Goku was 60, Yakon could defeat Goku easily. Base Goku should be at least 750 to counterattack Yakon in its base form.

Yakon wasn't fighting seriously against Goku, and Goku barely managed to dodge Yakon's attacks (this is why he transforms so fast in the fight). That's like when Goku could dodge a couple of Oozaru Vegeta attacks using KKx2, even when he already knew that in a serious fight not even with KKx5 he could have won at that point.

Goku wasnt fighting seriously either.

[freezamite]

In Daizenshuu, in Dabra biography was written that he fought Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (I find it hard to believe, but okay).

Not in the manga, at least. While its true that he should have fought SSJ2 Gohan, Toriyama "re-did" both Gohan and Kaiohshin to make them much weaker than their world tournament "incarnations".

That's clearly a contradiction and a mistake on the manga, but as far as the manga facts go, Gohan "downgraded" to FP SSJ when he went from the tournament to babidi's space ship.

Well there is no actual proof he regained all of his strength. For all we know it gave him a portion of his strength back. Regardless, I don't see how it is impossible for him to get 50x boost even if the transformation gave all his strength back.

He regained all of his strength because the opposite is not stated. I mean, he had a rage upgrade and every single one of those has given the user not only their full power, but even more than that. In Goku's case, that upgrade allowed Goku to surpass the base state limit of strength and triggered his transformation, so he was as strong as he could have possibly been.

When was that stated?

He went from not being able to stand up by himself, to being able not only to fly but also to dodge one of Freezer's attack. Of course, that Kienzan attack wasn't Freezer's fastest attack nor Freezer had that much strength at that point of the fight, but for Goku to be able to dodge that it meant that he wasn't weakened at all.

I agree Goku was holding back in SSJ. But I don't think the Kiri system is a linear system. It is probably more of a logarithmic system where you need more power to get another Kiri unit.

That's a good point. Since we don't know anything about how kilis work, nor how much Goku was holding back or the strength Yakon used to attack base state Goku, I think any guess is fairly valid. Since an exponential system makes this even easier to explain, I'm ok with that.

Goku wasnt fighting seriously either.

Goku was confident because he knew he could transform, but once Yakon attacks (even when Yakon wasn't serious) he can barely dodge the attacks and he rushes to the SSJ form in order to gain superiority.

[Hitiro]

He regained all of his strength because the opposite is not stated. I mean, he had a rage upgrade and every single one of those has given the user not only their full power, but even more than that. In Goku's case, that upgrade allowed Goku to surpass the base state limit of strength and triggered his transformation, so he was as strong as he could have possibly been.

That is merely an assumption though. You can't tell me he regained all of his strength. He may have only got 50% of it back for all we know. There is no way to gauge how much strength returned to him. The only rage boosts we know of are really Gohan's. And Gohan was never in Goku's condition where he was completely exhausted and had no Ki. Gohan is also a special case because he is practically a monster which has an insurmountable hidden amount of Ki waiting to be drawn upon. Other rage boosts are incomparable to Goku's rage boost when Kuririn dies.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

In Daizenshuu, in Dabra biography was written that he fought Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (I find it hard to believe, but okay).

Not in the manga, at least. While its true that he should have fought SSJ2 Gohan, Toriyama "re-did" both Gohan and Kaiohshin to make them much weaker than their world tournament "incarnations".

That's clearly a contradiction and a mistake on the manga, but as far as the manga facts go, Gohan "downgraded" to FP SSJ when he went from the tournament to babidi's space ship.

Okay, but you have not answered me, because Gohan told Goku if both of them could fight together in their base forms, they could defeat Yakon without the help of the transformation of Super Saiyan. And Gohan could feel the Chi of Yakon, so he was not mistaken on this point. So by this logic, Base Gohan and Base Goku > Yakon.

Or Base Gohan (at that point in the manga), was more powerful than base Goku? And if the transformation of Super Saiyan is 50 times more powerful than the base form, do you believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku? Or SSJ 3 = 4 SSJ 2, because if it were the case, Kid Buu could destroy SSJ 2 Vegeta with only one punch. And that was not what happened, Vegeta remained enough time with Kid Buu, so the difference for Vegeta SSJ 2 to SSJ 3 Goku / Kid Buu is less than 4 times (probably 1.5 or less). Therefore, the Super Saiyan could not be a multiplier, perhaps it was created as a multiplier, but an additive power is more attractive for the interpretation of the manga.

[Darkprince410]

In Daizenshuu, in Dabra biography was written that he fought Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (I find it hard to believe, but okay).

Not in the manga, at least. While its true that he should have fought SSJ2 Gohan, Toriyama "re-did" both Gohan and Kaiohshin to make them much weaker than their world tournament "incarnations".

That's clearly a contradiction and a mistake on the manga, but as far as the manga facts go, Gohan "downgraded" to FP SSJ when he went from the tournament to babidi's space ship.

Okay, but you have not answered me, because Gohan told Goku if both of them could fight together in their base forms, they could defeat Yakon without the help of the transformation of Super Saiyan. And Gohan could feel the Chi of Yakon, so he was not mistaken on this point. So by this logic, Base Gohan and Base Goku > Yakon.

Or Base Gohan (at that point in the manga), was more powerful than base Goku? And if the transformation of Super Saiyan is 50 times more powerful than the base form, do you believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku? Or SSJ 3 = 4 SSJ 2, because if it were the case, Kid Buu could destroy SSJ 2 Vegeta with only one punch. And that was not what happened, Vegeta remained enough time with Kid Buu, so the difference for Vegeta SSJ 2 to SSJ 3 Goku / Kid Buu is less than 4 times (probably 1.5 or less). Therefore, the Super Saiyan could not be a multiplier, perhaps it was created as a multiplier, but an additive power is more attractive for the interpretation of the manga.

You're assuming that Buu was using the full extent of his strength in his blows, when we've clearly seen that even in the wake of someone of equal strength with him, Pure Buu will still play around with his opponents. Furthermore, by that reasoning alone, Pure Buu must be extremely weak or Mr. Satan must be insanely strong, as he survived a punch by Buu.

There's nothing to suggest that when Buu fought Vegeta and later "fought" Mr. Satan, he was going at them with his full strength, and everything to suggest that he was, in actuality, pulling his punches just to play around with them and have fun beating them around. His later fight with Mr. Buu supports that notion even further, given that, rather than just outright blasting him into non-existence (he easily has the capacity to do so, given the strength difference between the two), Pure Buu opted to have fun and just ripped his own arm off to use as a projectile to pummel Mr. Buu.

He enjoyed playing around with them, and thus wouldn't just outright kill them in a single attack.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

You're assuming that Buu was using the full extent of his strength in his blows, when we've clearly seen that even in the wake of someone of equal strength with him, Pure Buu will still play around with his opponents. Furthermore, by that reasoning alone, Pure Buu must be extremely weak or Mr. Satan must be insanely strong, as he survived a punch by Buu.

There's nothing to suggest that when Buu fought Vegeta and later "fought" Mr. Satan, he was going at them with his full strength, and everything to suggest that he was, in actuality, pulling his punches just to play around with them and have fun beating them around. His later fight with Mr. Buu supports that notion even further, given that, rather than just outright blasting him into non-existence (he easily has the capacity to do so, given the strength difference between the two), Pure Buu opted to have fun and just ripped his own arm off to use as a projectile to pummel Mr. Buu.

He enjoyed playing around with them, and thus wouldn't just outright kill them in a single attack.

At this point of the manga, Mr Satan is a comic character (and only help to get Fat Buu out from Kid Buu, or for plot structure), Buu was pretty serious against Vegeta, so Vegeta yells at Goku for him to rush to to accumulate energy for 100% in Super saiyan 3, but that guy (Kid Buu) it would kill Vegeta (was when Vegeta said to Goku when he was fighting at Super Saiyan 2 against Buu - manga-lines)
Yet the more, Base Vegeta endured Kid Buu,for a long period of time (Buu was not playing around anymore,), Kid Buu after seeing the Genki-Dama, or we'll assume that the difference between them is 400 times. If the difference is 400, a simple kick from Buu against Vegeta, would crumble him into dust on the floor. Considering Cui (18k) and Vegeta (24K) a difference of 33%, Vegeta exploded Cui from the inside and he exploded into dust in the air (and vegeta also was not taking the fight so seriously as well), or Dodoria vs Vegeta (above 20K vs 24K). A multiplier of 50 is absurd, a multiplier of 400 is still more absurd.

[Darkprince410]

You're assuming that Buu was using the full extent of his strength in his blows, when we've clearly seen that even in the wake of someone of equal strength with him, Pure Buu will still play around with his opponents. Furthermore, by that reasoning alone, Pure Buu must be extremely weak or Mr. Satan must be insanely strong, as he survived a punch by Buu.

There's nothing to suggest that when Buu fought Vegeta and later "fought" Mr. Satan, he was going at them with his full strength, and everything to suggest that he was, in actuality, pulling his punches just to play around with them and have fun beating them around. His later fight with Mr. Buu supports that notion even further, given that, rather than just outright blasting him into non-existence (he easily has the capacity to do so, given the strength difference between the two), Pure Buu opted to have fun and just ripped his own arm off to use as a projectile to pummel Mr. Buu.

He enjoyed playing around with them, and thus wouldn't just outright kill them in a single attack.

At this point of the manga, Mr Satan is a comic character (and only help to get Fat Buu out from Kid Buu, or for plot structure), Buu was pretty serious against Vegeta, so Vegeta yells at Goku for him to rush to to accumulate energy for 100% in Super saiyan 3, but that guy (Kid Buu) it would kill Vegeta (was when Vegeta said to Goku when he was fighting at Super Saiyan 2 against Buu - manga-lines)
Yet the more, Base Vegeta endured Kid Buu,for a long period of time (Buu was not playing around anymore,), Kid Buu after seeing the Genki-Dama, or we'll assume that the difference between them is 400 times. If the difference is 400, a simple kick from Buu against Vegeta, would crumble him into dust on the floor. Considering Cui (18k) and Vegeta (24K) a difference of 33%, Vegeta exploded Cui from the inside and he exploded into dust in the air (and vegeta also was not taking the fight so seriously as well), or Dodoria vs Vegeta (above 20K vs 24K). A multiplier of 50 is absurd, a multiplier of 400 is still more absurd.

As said, there's nothing suggesting that Pure Buu was actually trying to utilize his full power when he was attacking Vegeta, and his demeanor strongly suggests that. If he's willing to play around when facing off against an opponent of equal strength to him (Ssj3 Goku), what makes you think he's going to not play around with an opponent several times weaker than him?

Likewise, just because there was a small gap in power between Vegeta and Kui (and an even smaller one between Vegeta and Dodoria) doesn't mean that a gap larger than that is automatically going to result in the weaker opponent dying instantly. For example, after Freeza jumped to 50% of his full power, Goku was on the receiving end of blows from someone that was at the very least twice as strong as him (when Goku was using the 10x Kaiou-ken), and actually took several blows from Freeza while the Kaiou-ken 10x was down, resulting in a power difference in the range of 20x.

Kui and Dodoria weren't actual fighters in any sense, relying solely on the fact they had high battle powers to win battles. Neither had ever faced the concept of an opponent stronger than them, because in their minds, the only people stronger were still on their side. Thus they weren't prepared for defensive battles, and would sooner run away rather than fight an opponent even somewhat stronger than they were.

[Mjb1985]

Considering that one minute Freeza is laying face down in a pool of blood, chopped in half and begging for mercy, unable to move and the next minute he is flying around all nilly willy and trying to take Goku on, I think having ki restores your body a ton.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He went from not being able to stand up by himself, to being able not only to fly but also to dodge one of Freezer's attack. Of course, that Kienzan attack wasn't Freezer's fastest attack nor Freezer had that much strength at that point of the fight, but for Goku to be able to dodge that it meant that he wasn't weakened at all.

That doesn't mean he is 100% back, it only means that he has most of his power back.

[Mjb1985]

I don't see why it wouldn't be 100% back. If Freeza can still reach 100% power after getting burned by a KHH, taking a Genki Dama to the face and getting pounded on by a Super Saiyan, well then I don't think Super Saiyan replenishing Goku's base power is all that hard to imagine.

[xmysticgohanx]

do you believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku?

SSJ Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Goku even said so.

[freezamite]

That is merely an assumption though. You can't tell me he regained all of his strength. He may have only got 50% of it back for all we know.

No, for three reasons:
Firstly, the sole fact of Goku transforming into a SSJ demonstrates that he fully regained all of his strength. SSJ is activated when, due to a pure heart that unleashes in the sayan a feeling that allows him to increase its ki beyond what he could possible do in normal conditions, the sayan also surpasses the limits he couldn't surpass with training alone. In other words, if we assume that Goku still had some room to improve in its base state when he fought against Freezer, then the rage not only fully replenished him, but also increased his base state strength (in which case the initial SSJ multiplier for Goku would be lower than 10). If Goku had only regained half of his strength he wouldn't have become a SSJ, because the SSJ is the consequence of Goku surpassing the the base state limit of power.

Secondly, because when Trunks appears without even a single scratch it has a power level nearly identical to the one Goku had on Namek, and then once Goku arrives, we see him at that power level and without being hurt at all.

Thirdly, because when reading a book (or a manga in this case) you have to assume things work the same way they've always worked (there're fictional rules in every single literary work), and if there's a change/something different in how things work in a certain moment, then that change has to be specifically explained. In other words and going with an extremely exaggerated example, for what we are told in the manga I could assume that Pilaf could've been an incredibly powerful alien with the aim to train Goku. He could've had SSJ3 level of strength and he could've been pretending to be weak and have evil intentions with the only aim to strengthen Goku so he could become his successor as the universe's most valuable defender. Does the manga state the opposite? Nope, but it would be bad reading comprehension for my part to reach those conclusions based on what's written in the DB manga.
Is it an assumption that Pilaf was just a weak bad guy who wanted to conquer the world? Why couldn't he be the ultimate defender of the universe with a strength surpassing that of Goku's SSJ3 just pretending to be evil and weak in order to train Goku? Well, because if that was the case then it's the author job to make me notice it somehow, and if he doesn't, then it means that I'm the one being wrong in my assumption.

For how the SSJ transformation was described on the manga, Goku had to be fully replenished when he transformed for the first time, otherwise he wouldn't be able to transform.

And Gohan was never in Goku's condition where he was completely exhausted and had no Ki.

Do you think so? In the fight against Vegeta there's a scene of Gohan lying on the ground near his father after being beaten by Vegeta, and considering that at that point he was at around 2000 when he enraged and the fight he gave Vegeta, it seems pretty obvious that the rage replenished him well.

Gohan is also a special case because he is practically a monster which has an insurmountable hidden amount of Ki waiting to be drawn upon. Other rage boosts are incomparable to Goku's rage boost when Kuririn dies.

Rage boosts have always replenished the user's strength and upgraded the fighter that had them. There has never been a rage boost that has given the one that suffered it only a "half the strength replenishment", and considering the explanations that are given in the manga about how SSJ is reached, the sole fact that Goku transforms means that he was at leas fully replenished, if not even upgraded.

And Gohan could feel the Chi of Yakon, so he was not mistaken on this point. So by this logic, Base Gohan and Base Goku > Yakon.

Yes but that's assuming Yakon was using his full 800 kilis at that point. Babidi knew Goku's SSJ form was more powerful than Yakon's maximum 800 kilis of strength, but Yakon may have been fighting with 500 Kilis at that point, being superior to base Goku and still reserving some energy for when necessary. Or maybe as has been said Kilis are not a linear unit but an exponentially increasing one.

Or Base Gohan (at that point in the manga), was more powerful than base Goku?

Yes, that could also be the case.

And if the transformation of Super Saiyan is 50 times more powerful than the base form, do you believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku?

As I've said, I don't believe in those numbers. I believe that the SSJ may be a multiplier that varies depending on how well one controls it's own energy, but I'm in fact one of the biggest detractors of the "fixed" x50 theory.

Or SSJ 3 = 4 SSJ 2

That directly contradicts the manga in my opinion. SSJ3 from SSJ2 was a smaller jump than SSJ2 from SSJ, and SSJ2 from SSJ was a rather small jump in my opinion (20-30% in increase of strength I would say).

And that was not what happened, Vegeta remained enough time with Kid Buu, so the difference for Vegeta SSJ 2 to SSJ 3 Goku / Kid Buu is less than 4 times (probably 1.5 or less). Therefore, the Super Saiyan could not be a multiplier, perhaps it was created as a multiplier, but an additive power is more attractive for the interpretation of the manga.

Well, multiplier or adder is just the same, since a multiplication is just an add repeated multiple times. In what I agree with you is in that the official multipliers doesn't make any sense at all.

That doesn't mean he is 100% back, it only means that he has most of his power back.

As I've said, if he didn't regain all his power (and more) Goku wouldn't have transformed into a SSJ. SSJ is not the consequence of rage alone (otherwise Gohan would've turned SSJ multiple times) but the consequence of rage upping the user's power beyond the limit. Since Goku transformed, he was fully replenished.

I don't see why it wouldn't be 100% back. If Freeza can still reach 100% power after getting burned by a KHH, taking a Genki Dama to the face and getting pounded on by a Super Saiyan, well then I don't think Super Saiyan replenishing Goku's base power is all that hard to imagine.

I don't think we are talking about the same percentages here. I mean, if we speak in relative terms (strength used in relation to the available strength) then Goku had been at his 100% the whole match, because even when he is unable to sand up by himself, he was still using all the strength he had. This is Freezer's 100%, the 100% of strength he had at that point.
But if we speak in absolute terms (strength available in relation to the maximum strength a certain fighter has at one point in optimal conditions), then Freezer never reaches his 100% in the fight (because when he decides to fight with the 100% of the strength he has available, he is already severely injured and he has already lost a big chunk of the energy he could potentially use).

What we are discussing is if Goku's rage replenished him completely (which I firmly believe is the case) or not, not if he was using all his strength or not.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As I've said, if he didn't regain all his power (and more) Goku wouldn't have transformed into a SSJ. SSJ is not the consequence of rage alone (otherwise Gohan would've turned SSJ multiple times) but the consequence of rage upping the user's power beyond the limit. Since Goku transformed, he was fully replenished.

That's your interpretation of the events, not a fact. It was never stated that you need to be at full power to become a SS, and it's never stated that rage restores the power of a fighter, except if it's Gohan.

[Hitiro]

Firstly, the sole fact of Goku transforming into a SSJ demonstrates that he fully regained all of his strength. SSJ is activated when, due to a pure heart that unleashes in the sayan a feeling that allows him to increase its ki beyond what he could possible do in normal conditions, the sayan also surpasses the limits he couldn't surpass with training alone. In other words, if we assume that Goku still had some room to improve in its base state when he fought against Freezer, then the rage not only fully replenished him, but also increased his base state strength (in which case the initial SSJ multiplier for Goku would be lower than 10). If Goku had only regained half of his strength he wouldn't have become a SSJ, because the SSJ is the consequence of Goku surpassing the the base state limit of power.

Goku was stated to surpass Saiyan limits post 100g training. Vegeta states that and the narrator of the manga introduces him like that.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

So if we were to take those mentions then Goku would only need to be above 90,000 to transform into a SSJ. Therefore he wouldn't need to regain all of his strength. I'm not saying that this is the case. But you can look at this multiple ways. There is no "fact" when it comes to Goku going into rage because this is the first and only true time he has become enraged. The only other instance of him becoming enraged was the last time Kuririn died and it did not give him 100% strength otherwise he would have picked apart Tambourine. But we can chalk this down to "enraging" not existing quite yet. The fact of the matter is you can't say with 100% certainty that it gave all his strength back.

Secondly, because when Trunks appears without even a single scratch it has a power level nearly identical to the one Goku had on Namek, and then once Goku arrives, we see him at that power level and without being hurt at all.

This isn't correct. What was said was the ki "feels" like a SSJ's ki. Which would only be Goku's at this point because this is the only person they know to transform into a SSJ. It never reference the size/amount of ki.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

In the manga characters have been able to distinguish between base ki and SSJ ki through it's different feel. It's like a signature unique to the form.

Thirdly, because when reading a book (or a manga in this case) you have to assume things work the same way they've always worked (there're fictional rules in every single literary work), and if there's a change/something different in how things work in a certain moment, then that change has to be specifically explained. In other words and going with an extremely exaggerated example, for what we are told in the manga I could assume that Pilaf could've been an incredibly powerful alien with the aim to train Goku. He could've had SSJ3 level of strength and he could've been pretending to be weak and have evil intentions with the only aim to strengthen Goku so he could become his successor as the universe's most valuable defender. Does the manga state the opposite? Nope, but it would be bad reading comprehension for my part to reach those conclusions based on what's written in the DB manga.
Is it an assumption that Pilaf was just a weak bad guy who wanted to conquer the world? Why couldn't he be the ultimate defender of the universe with a strength surpassing that of Goku's SSJ3 just pretending to be evil and weak in order to train Goku? Well, because if that was the case then it's the author job to make me notice it somehow, and if he doesn't, then it means that I'm the one being wrong in my assumption.

For how the SSJ transformation was described on the manga, Goku had to be fully replenished when he transformed for the first time, otherwise he wouldn't be able to transform.

But the example you used was pure fact. We know Pilaf is weak and he is evil. Nothing contradicts it. But nothing explicitly states Goku regained all of his strength. So it could go both ways. We can either see it as giving some of his strength back or all of his strength.

And Gohan was never in Goku's condition where he was completely exhausted and had no Ki.

Do you think so? In the fight against Vegeta there's a scene of Gohan lying on the ground near his father after being beaten by Vegeta, and considering that at that point he was at around 2000 when he enraged and the fight he gave Vegeta, it seems pretty obvious that the rage replenished him well.

How did that replenish him exactly? You realise Gohan, prior to this, was given a Senzu by Goku and then Goku told him and Kuririn to leave, right? He still had all of his strength. He just didn't use it out of fear. Vegeta did beat him up a bit but Gohan wasn't exhausted and hadn't lost any ki.

Gohan is also a special case because he is practically a monster which has an insurmountable hidden amount of Ki waiting to be drawn upon. Other rage boosts are incomparable to Goku's rage boost when Kuririn dies.

Rage boosts have always replenished the user's strength and upgraded the fighter that had them. There has never been a rage boost that has given the one that suffered it only a "half the strength replenishment", and considering the explanations that are given in the manga about how SSJ is reached, the sole fact that Goku transforms means that he was at leas fully replenished, if not even upgraded.

Really? Hate to go back to pre-Z again; but Goku enraged due to Kuririn's death is proof that rage don't give your strength back. Tienshinhan when Chiaotzu dies doesn't get all of his strength back. There are no other characters in the manga, I believe, that had little to no ki and were completely exhausted that regained their strength. All the characters that have had actual rage boost have been close to their maximum strength. Goku is actually the only character to be in such a situation to actually get any of his ki back. Gohan has practically always had an abundance of ki and not been exhausted before he goes past his current maximum strength.

[freezamite]

That's your interpretation of the events, not a fact. It was never stated that you need to be at full power to become a SS, and it's never stated that rage restores the power of a fighter, except if it's Gohan.

No, the interpretation of the events (although I'll provide solid quotes to support it) may be my explanation of why Goku has to be on full strength to become SSJ, but that the rage restores his power is blatantly obvious when you see that he couldn't even stand up by himself before enraging and after doing so he could fly at full speed even to the point of being able to dodge one of Freezer's attacks (even if the mental-controlled kienzan wasn't a fast technique like the death beam, it still was the 100% Freezer that had been fighting against him in SSJ-form just a few seconds before).

As for why it has to be "all of his strength" and not "50% of his strength", we are not speaking of a normal SSJ transformation here but the one that triggers the whole SSJ activation on a sayan body. We know that this is done through intensive training coupled with a rage boost (Goku explains it to Gohan and then Gohan to Goten). It's explicitly said that if a Sayan doesn't have the rage boost, he won't become a SSJ no matter how hard he trains and he will eventually reach a limit that can't be surpassed (and the description of the SSJ is precisely "a sayan that surpasses the limits that a regular sayan has").

We also know that a sayan can enrage and increase his strength without becoming a SSJ, proved by Gohan dozens of times. And for what we see with Goku's rage boost, it wasn't any different than Gohan's rage boosts except for the fact that since Goku was at the limit (or near the limit) of his base state, it triggered the transformation. Like Gohan's rage boosts, Goku regained his strength (not a supposition, check chapter 325 and compare it to Goku before Krillin was killed) and there were never different kinds of rage boosts described on the manga (as I've said, to suppose things that are not based on facts of the manga is not a reader's job. If Toriyama had wanted multiple kinds of rage boosts, then he would have told us about them and the effects they would have).

There are no more secret ingredients to trigger the SSJ transformation, that's pretty well explained in the manga (Gohan to Goten). You need to have the strength and then a rage boost, so it's proved in the manga that if Goku didn't regain all his strength past the base state limit he wouldn't have become a SSJ.

Goku stated he surpassed his limits post 100g training. I believe he states that, Vegeta states that and I think the sub-text of the manga introduces him like that. So if we were to take those mentions then Goku would only need to be above 90,000 to transform into a SSJ.

I don't think those are the same kind of "limits". Goku saying he has surpassed his limits is one thing and it translates into "I achieved what I thought couldn't be achieved". But Vegeta speaking how he reached SSJ because he hit his REAL limits, that's completely different.
Vegeta wasn't speaking of "limits" in a figurative sense, he really hit a wall that prevented him from going higher no matter what he did. This coupled by the fact that an inferior saiyan and a mysterious out-of-nowhere stranger surpassed him triggered his rage. If it wasn't for that, Vegeta would've never reached the SSJ stage.

So things have to be interpreted considering their context. When Goku talks about how he surpassed his limits it's obviously just a way to say that he reached a strength that surpassed his expectations, not comparable to Vegeta who really hit a limit and stayed training during months (or even years) seeing no progress at all, and realizing he had hit his real limit of strength.

This isn't correct. What was said was the ki "feels" like a SSJ's ki. Which would only be Goku's at this point because this is the only person they know to transform into a SSJ. It never reference the size/amount of ki.

No, he confused Trunks with Goku. He said "that's father's ki" and while it's obvious that there was a lot of resemblance between SSJ kis, if Trunks had been much, much stronger than Goku that would've been pointed out without any doubt (again, it's not a reader's task to suppose things. If Toriyama had wanted Trunks to be much stronger than Goku, then he would've told us through Gohan). Not only Gohan confuses them, but also Goku confirms that he didn't have time to train a lot in Yadrat and that he could only learn the "shunkanido" and how to transform at will.

So, we know that Goku didn't have time to increase his strength (stated by himself).
Gohan never says anything about Trunks being stronger.
Once Goku and Trunks show their SSJ form to each other nothing is said about Goku (who couldn't increase his strength because he didn't have time to do so) being inferior to Trunks.

In the manga characters have been able to distinguish between base ki and SSJ ki through it's different feel. It's like a signature unique to the form.

Same implies form and size. Seriously, it doesn't have any sense for Gohan to hide that his father has multiplied his strength since namek if this is the case. If Freezer and Cold had different enough kis to be distinguished and we ALSO know that after they know about the existence of Trunks they can distinguish him from the other SSJ with ease, it meant that:
1. Gohan of course only knew of one SSJ and jumped to conclusions because Trunk's ki isn't exactly equal to Goku's (in type) even when they're both in SSJ form.
2. Trunks had the same power Goku had on Namek. I insist on that, it doesn't have any sense for Trunks to have much more power and Gohan not saying it.

But the example you used was pure fact. We know Pilaf is weak and he is evil.

Why do you know that? How do you know he wasn't good and super strong and just pretended to be evil and weak? Well, it's easy, because that's what's written on the manga and it's not our job as readers to figure what's not even hinted.
Trunks being much stronger than Goku in Namek wasn't even hinted. In fact, the opposite is what's "hinted" (although I would say that in this case it's pretty much stated) by what Gohan, Goku and Trunks say on those chapters. And that's why I say that Trunks had the same power level of Goku at Namek.

Nothing contradicts it.

Nothing contradicts him being a super strong and good character pretending to be evil and weak just to train Goku in his adventures. Do you have any proof of THAT not being the case?

But nothing explicitly states Goku regained all of his strength.

Nothing explicitly states Goku NOT regaining all of his strength. Considering that any single rage boost seen on the series up to that point and even after that point restores all the user's strength and even increases it beyond the point it normally was, the burden of proof is on you.
You're the one that has to proof that Goku only regained a part of his strength and not all of it, not me, because I'm just applying a rule that was established on the manga dozens of chapters before. If I say Pilaf was an ultra good character pretending to be bad, isn't it true that it's MY JOB to demonstrate it with manga facts? Because I'm the one making the statement!
Now you're telling me that this case is different from any other rage boost seen on the series and that Goku didn't regain all of his strength. Considering that:
1. He doesn't seem tired at all at chapter 325 after reverting to his base state.
2. Feats like being able to dodge Freezer's attack (and Freezer was fighting at the same level of a SSJ just some seconds ago, so even if he was weakened and below a SSJ level at that point and the Kienzan wasn't the fastest attack ever, he still was really strong compared to base Goku).

Makes me think that there's no reason to think that this was an exception, but if you have any proof of it being the case, be my guest.

So it could go both ways. We can either see it as giving some of his strength back or all of his strength.

I'm sorry to disagree. I find that like saying that my "theory" of Pilaf being the universe #1 defender is equally valid as your theory of it being just a weak evil being just because in the manga there's anyone explicitly saying that Pilaf wasn't the universe defender.
If you can't prove that this was a special case of rage boost that only brought back a portion of the user's maximum strength, then it works as any other rage boost we've seen in the series. That coupled by the facts I pointed before (Goku not being tired at all after reverting to base state and him dodging an attack with a speed that at that point would require Goku to be at his best condition) is in my opinion a solid proof that he regained all of his strength.

How did that replenish him exactly? You realise Gohan, prior to this, was given a Senzu by Goku and then Goku told him and Kuririn to leave, right? He still had all of his strength.

Vegeta kicked Gohan's ass before he enraged. In DB even a single punch, if it's strong enough, can kill someone or hurt him enough to left him with only a portion of his strength.
After receiving Vegeta's attack Gohan can't even stand up by himself, by Gohan's standards that punch was devastating. And yet he could stand up and fight with Vegeta.

Really? Hate to go back to pre-Z again; but Goku enraged due to Kuririn's death is proof that rage don't give your strength back.

Going to "pre-z" is dangerous because some concepts still weren't introduced in the manga, but in that case it would be important to remember that rage boosts are not triggered by rage alone (otherwise Vegeta would've had dozens of them, or Freezer or any bad guy who has ever enraged) but also by desperation.
Gohan has them because he hates to fight, he is "coward" and pacific, so he has a personality that pushes him into a desperate situation even before he starts to fight against someone (because he doesn't want to fight no matter what).
That's not the case of Goku by any means, and in that fight between Goku and Piccolo's demon Son Goku was enraged but I don't think he was desperate and so I think of that rage like the ones Vegeta, Freezer, Cell or any villain have when they see that they're loosing against the good boys.

The same goes for Vegeta, he "enraged" a lot of times (when he found out that Gohan had tricked him and stole his dragon ball) but the only time he had a "rage boost" was when he found himself totally desperate trying to become a SSJ and realizing he had reached his limits while inferior beings like a low class Sayan or even an unknown earthling could transform.
Goku, as a Saiyan, has the same violent instincts than Vegeta. He is pure hearted, but he loves to fight, so this kind of "desperation" feeling was much harder to trigger on him (that's why he doesn't enrage nor have rage boost every now and then, but only once during the whole series) and could only be reached in front of a villain that had already defeated him and was killing his friends in front of him one by one, without him being able to do anything to protect them. Had Freezer killed Krilin and Piccolo before Goku started to fight, and you would've never seen a rage boost on Goku (like when he arrives after Nappa had killed nearly all of his friends. Goku enrages, sure, but it's only that, a pissed Goku and not a rage boosted one).

All the characters that have had actual rage boost have been close to their maximum strength.

Gohan couldn't even stand up by himself in the fight against Vegeta (he was lying on the ground next to his father). A single punch can be devastating in DB, and that was totally the case.