Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, the interpretation of the events (although I'll provide solid quotes to support it) may be my explanation of why Goku has to be on full strength to become SSJ, but that the rage restores his power is blatantly obvious when you see that he couldn't even stand up by himself before enraging and after doing so he could fly at full speed even to the point of being able to dodge one of Freezer's attacks (even if the mental-controlled kienzan wasn't a fast technique like the death beam, it still was the 100% Freezer that had been fighting against him in SSJ-form just a few seconds before).

But I don't believe that Goku's power was restored through a rage boost, I believe that the transformation itself restored his power.

As for why it has to be "all of his strength" and not "50% of his strength", we are not speaking of a normal SSJ transformation here but the one that triggers the whole SSJ activation on a sayan body. We know that this is done through intensive training coupled with a rage boost (Goku explains it to Gohan and then Gohan to Goten). It's explicitly said that if a Sayan doesn't have the rage boost, he won't become a SSJ no matter how hard he trains and he will eventually reach a limit that can't be surpassed (and the description of the SSJ is precisely "a sayan that surpasses the limits that a regular sayan has").

We also know that a sayan can enrage and increase his strength without becoming a SSJ, proved by Gohan dozens of times. And for what we see with Goku's rage boost, it wasn't any different than Gohan's rage boosts except for the fact that since Goku was at the limit (or near the limit) of his base state, it triggered the transformation. Like Gohan's rage boosts, Goku regained his strength (not a supposition, check chapter 325 and compare it to Goku before Krillin was killed) and there were never different kinds of rage boosts described on the manga (as I've said, to suppose things that are not based on facts of the manga is not a reader's job. If Toriyama had wanted multiple kinds of rage boosts, then he would have told us about them and the effects they would have).

There are no more secret ingredients to trigger the SSJ transformation, that's pretty well explained in the manga (Gohan to Goten). You need to have the strength and then a rage boost, so it's proved in the manga that if Goku didn't regain all his strength past the base state limit he wouldn't have become a SSJ.

No, it is stated that you have to get angry to transform, not get a rage boost. The only one that has shown the ability to get a rage boost, meaning that he can get stronger without transforming, is Gohan. We never saw any other Saiyan getting stronger through anger without transforming, it was shown that it was an exclusive ability to Gohan alone because he was a Saiyan Halfling (Vegeta did it once in BoG, but we don't know much details about what exactly happened there).

[Hitiro]

I don't think those are the same kind of "limits". Goku saying he has surpassed his limits is one thing and it translates into "I achieved what I thought couldn't be achieved". But Vegeta speaking how he reached SSJ because he hit his REAL limits, that's completely different.
Vegeta wasn't speaking of "limits" in a figurative sense, he really hit a wall that prevented him from going higher no matter what he did. This coupled by the fact that an inferior saiyan and a mysterious out-of-nowhere stranger surpassed him triggered his rage. If it wasn't for that, Vegeta would've never reached the SSJ stage.

So things have to be interpreted considering their context. When Goku talks about how he surpassed his limits it's obviously just a way to say that he reached a strength that surpassed his expectations, not comparable to Vegeta who really hit a limit and stayed training during months (or even years) seeing no progress at all, and realizing he had hit his real limit of strength.

You need to check my edited version. The narrator in the manga actually says that Goku had surpassed the Saiyan limits. In the Daizenshuu it specifically states that to become a SSJ you need a battle power above the standard of normal Saiyan's which would mean surpassing the Saiyan limit which Goku did after he finished his 100g training.

No, he confused Trunks with Goku. He said "that's father's ki" and while it's obvious that there was a lot of resemblance between SSJ kis, if Trunks had been much, much stronger than Goku that would've been pointed out without any doubt (again, it's not a reader's task to suppose things. If Toriyama had wanted Trunks to be much stronger than Goku, then he would've told us through Gohan). Not only Gohan confuses them, but also Goku confirms that he didn't have time to train a lot in Yadrat and that he could only learn the "shunkanido" and how to transform at will.

So, we know that Goku didn't have time to increase his strength (stated by himself).
Gohan never says anything about Trunks being stronger.
Once Goku and Trunks show their SSJ form to each other nothing is said about Goku (who couldn't increase his strength because he didn't have time to do so) being inferior to Trunks.

If Trunks had been much much stronger than Goku then Gohan would have attributed it to Goku now being 100% as opposed to his original fight with Freeza in which he only recovered a little of his strength and turned SSJ. This is really open to interpretation. Gohan could be thinking "Wow! So this is what my fathers Ki is like when he has full power!"

In the manga characters have been able to distinguish between base ki and SSJ ki through it's different feel. It's like a signature unique to the form.

Same implies form and size. Seriously, it doesn't have any sense for Gohan to hide that his father has multiplied his strength since namek if this is the case. If Freezer and Cold had different enough kis to be distinguished and we ALSO know that after they know about the existence of Trunks they can distinguish him from the other SSJ with ease, it meant that:
1. Gohan of course only knew of one SSJ and jumped to conclusions because Trunk's ki isn't exactly equal to Goku's (in type) even when they're both in SSJ form.
2. Trunks had the same power Goku had on Namek. I insist on that, it doesn't have any sense for Trunks to have much more power and Gohan not saying it.

With all the evidence if Goku had reached 100% and turned SSJ the first time then Gohan would have questioned the ki he was sensing. From the battle we see of Goku vs Trunks, Goku is obviously the stronger SSJ. Standing completely still and fending off Trunks with nothing but his finger. Gohan would have wondered why his father's ki has decreased rather than stayed the same or increased.

But the example you used was pure fact. We know Pilaf is weak and he is evil.

Why do you know that? How do you know he wasn't good and super strong and just pretended to be evil and weak? Well, it's easy, because that's what's written on the manga and it's not our job as readers to figure what's not even hinted.
Trunks being much stronger than Goku in Namek wasn't even hinted. In fact, the opposite is what's "hinted" (although I would say that in this case it's pretty much stated) by what Gohan, Goku and Trunks say on those chapters. And that's why I say that Trunks had the same power level of Goku at Namek.

Now you're just making things up. SSJ Trunks and Goku's SSJ Namek battle power are never once compared. There is as much evidence to say they aren't the same as they are. Nothing contradicts Goku being close to Trunks or being much weaker than Trunks. You are just making assumptions based on what isn't said. I'm saying you can look at it one of two ways. Either he had 100% fighting against Freeza or he gained a small percentage of his full power. Both sides aren't contradicted. We can only make assumptions.

Nothing contradicts it.

Nothing contradicts him being a super strong and good character pretending to be evil and weak just to train Goku in his adventures. Do you have any proof of THAT not being the case?

Yes, the manga contradicts that idea. What the manga doesn't contradict is whether Goku only received a small portion of his base power back or 100% of his power. I'm not taking the manga out of context here and using it to validate my assumptions. I can see that 100% Goku is entirely possible idea. But also is him only getting a small amount of strength back.

But nothing explicitly states Goku regained all of his strength.

Nothing explicitly states Goku NOT regaining all of his strength. Considering that any single rage boost seen on the series up to that point and even after that point restores all the user's strength and even increases it beyond the point it normally was, the burden of proof is on you.
You're the one that has to proof that Goku only regained a part of his strength and not all of it, not me, because I'm just applying a rule that was established on the manga dozens of chapters before. If I say Pilaf was an ultra good character pretending to be bad, isn't it true that it's MY JOB to demonstrate it with manga facts? Because I'm the one making the statement!

As I said above it is impossible to prove whether Goku only regained a part of his strength or all of it. Because neither point is explicitly pointed to. We can both come up with valid reasons for one idea or the other. That doesn't make them true. All we are doing is taking what is said in the manga and through our own perspectives trying to prove our points. A prime example is the SSJ Trunks ki vs. SSJ Goku's ki. You say Gohan doesn't comment on their ki difference because Goku gained all his strength back on Namek. I say he didn't comment on their ki difference because Goku only got a small portion of strength back on Namek and Gohan believes that what he was sensing now was SSJ Goku at full strength.

Now you're telling me that this case is different from any other rage boost seen on the series and that Goku didn't regain all of his strength. Considering that:
1. He doesn't seem tired at all at chapter 325 after reverting to his base state.
2. Feats like being able to dodge Freezer's attack (and Freezer was fighting at the same level of a SSJ just some seconds ago, so even if he was weakened and below a SSJ level at that point and the Kienzan wasn't the fastest attack ever, he still was really strong compared to base Goku).

Makes me think that there's no reason to think that this was an exception, but if you have any proof of it being the case, be my guest.

I don't see what 1 or 2 have to do with Goku's strength. Goku did turn SSJ after all. Any feats attributed to him would be due to the SSJ boost in most cases.

So it could go both ways. We can either see it as giving some of his strength back or all of his strength.

I'm sorry to disagree. I find that like saying that my "theory" of Pilaf being the universe #1 defender is equally valid as your theory of it being just a weak evil being just because in the manga there's anyone explicitly saying that Pilaf wasn't the universe defender.
If you can't prove that this was a special case of rage boost that only brought back a portion of the user's maximum strength, then it works as any other rage boost we've seen in the series. That coupled by the facts I pointed before (Goku not being tired at all after reverting to base state and him dodging an attack with a speed that at that point would require Goku to be at his best condition) is in my opinion a solid proof that he regained all of his strength.

Again, your using that example when it is "explicitly" stated he is a bad guy. But Goku regaining his full strength or part of his strength is entirely subjective because we are never explicitly told whether he gained all of his strength or just part of it.

How did that replenish him exactly? You realise Gohan, prior to this, was given a Senzu by Goku and then Goku told him and Kuririn to leave, right? He still had all of his strength.

Vegeta kicked Gohan's ass before he enraged. In DB even a single punch, if it's strong enough, can kill someone or hurt him enough to left him with only a portion of his strength.
After receiving Vegeta's attack Gohan can't even stand up by himself, by Gohan's standards that punch was devastating. And yet he could stand up and fight with Vegeta.

I'm sorry, but getting punched in the stomach and headbutt isn't going to reduce Gohan all of his ki down to near 0. If he had broken his neck, then yes. Gohan may be on the floor but it is only due to pain. Children aren't accustomed to being smashed about. Goku even tells Gohan to fight Vegeta because was weakened now. If Gohan lost that much ki then Goku wouldn't be telling him he can fight Vegeta.

All the characters that have had actual rage boost have been close to their maximum strength.

Gohan couldn't even stand up by himself in the fight against Vegeta (he was lying on the ground next to his father). A single punch can be devastating in DB, and that was totally the case.

Do you have proof Gohan couldn't stand up? He didn't want to try and fight Vegeta and if he stood up then Vegeta would have only attacked him again. Goku said for Gohan to go fight Vegeta because Vegeta had been weakened. Do you really think Goku would be saying that if Gohan couldn't fight? Gohan refused to fight Vegeta because he thought Vegeta was too strong. He only got motivated to fight when he saw Vegeta picking on his father.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

do you believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku?

SSJ Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Goku even said so.

Sure, but for sure when Gotenks turns into SS3, it does not get eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku. The multipliers (Super exciting Guide) guide - SS2= 2Super Saiyan 1 or SSJ 3= 4 X SSJ 2. Because this multipliers are in contradiction with the manga itself. At best Hypothesis SSJ3 Gotenks is 100% to 150% more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, and with that I'm being very generous.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Sure, but for sure when Gotenks turns into SS3, it does not get eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku.

SS3 Gotenks is far more than 8 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

[dbgtFO]

Sure, but for sure when Gotenks turns into SS3, it does not get eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku.

SS3 Gotenks is far more than 8 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

I'd like that to be true, but I doubt Toriyama believes that, even back then, when writing the story.
But it could be like the Super Saiyan multiplier being 50x, where it wouldn't make sense otherwise and Toriyama would have to go with it despite it being a bit too extreme for his tastes.

But I really doubt he thought much of SS Gotenks and that's most likely why Daizenshuu 7 had that line about Gotenks(pre RoSaT) implied weaker than Vegeta.

[Low Tone G]

Sure, but for sure when Gotenks turns into SS3, it does not get eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku.

SS3 Gotenks is far more than 8 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

I don't really see it. SSJ3 Gotenks wasn't increbidly stronger than Goku, not even if SSJ3. Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu, which was challenged by SSJ3 Goku and fairly dominated. If Gotenks was more than 2-4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku he wouldn't have problems to overcome Super Buu. Goku had a hop as the kids replace him wih fusion boost. If he could somehow beat Fat Buu, he couldn't be incomparalby weaker then Super Buu, which was equal to SSJ3 Gotenks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'd like that to be true, but I doubt Toriyama believes that, even back then, when writing the story.
But it could be like the Super Saiyan multiplier being 50x, where it wouldn't make sense otherwise and Toriyama would have to go with it despite it being a bit too extreme for his tastes.

But I really doubt he thought much of SS Gotenks and that's most likely why Daizenshuu 7 had that line about Gotenks(pre RoSaT) implied weaker than Vegeta.

Toriyama never directly compared Goku with Gotenks or U. Gohan, and we don't have anything about Goku & Evil Boo other than that Evil Boo is far stronger than Goku. So, there is nothing saying that Toriyama believes or doesn't believe that.

Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu, which was challenged by SSJ3 Goku and fairly dominated.

When did that happen? If we apply the SEG multipliers, which are aproved by Toriyama and don't contradict anything in the manga, the manga implies that SS Gotenks is at least a few times stronger than SS3 Goku, then he gets even stronger, along with Super Saiyan 3 on top of that.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Sure, but for sure when Gotenks turns into SS3, it does not get eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku.

SS3 Gotenks is far more than 8 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

Impossible, this contradicts the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Sure, but for sure when Gotenks turns into SS3, it does not get eight times more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku.

SS3 Gotenks is far more than 8 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

Impossible, this contradicts the manga.

How?

[DannyDBZfanforever]

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH"][/quote]

Firstly these data are from Super exciting Guides, not in the manga.

Second, I doubt seriously that Toriyana took a secondary character and make him more than eight times more powerful than the main character.

Third, in previous fights a difference between 10% -20% was sufficient to defeat an opponent. An advantage over 800% is too absurd to face and fight combats in the same saga, in the same time frame.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Firstly these data are from Super exciting Guides, not in the manga.

What I say mostly comes from the manga.

Second, I doubt seriously that Toriyana took a secondary character and make him more than eight times more powerful than the main character.

Except that Goku wasn't going to be the main character at this point, it was Gohan. He later changed his mind and made Goku the main character again.

Third, in previous fights a difference between 10% -20% was sufficient to defeat an opponent. An advantage over 800% is too absurd to face and fight combats in the same saga, in the same time frame.

Okay? When did Goku fight with Gotenks, or anyone on Gotenks' level?

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Firstly these data are from Super exciting Guides, not in the manga.

What I say mostly comes from the manga.

Second, I doubt seriously that Toriyana took a secondary character and make him more than eight times more powerful than the main character.

Except that Goku wasn't going to be the main character at this point, it was Gohan. He later changed his mind and made Goku the main character again.

Third, in previous fights a difference between 10% -20% was sufficient to defeat an opponent. An advantage over 800% is too absurd to face and fight combats in the same saga, in the same time frame.

Okay? When did Goku fight with Gotenks, or anyone on Gotenks' level?

1 - In the manga is not explicitly that the transformation of Super Saiyan 3 multiplied eight times the power of a Super Saiyan. If you find on the manga, please place here, these multipliers are from Super exciting Guides, and the multipliers disagree with the manga, you're taking this information from the Super exciting Guides, not manga.

2 - Goku was always the main character of Dragon Ball in general, though not continuously. Vegeta on Namek was the main character. In Cell games was Gohan. It is impossible to make a character more than eight times more powerful than the main character in so little time, for no reason. Just one question, is SSJ 2 Gohan eight times more powerful than Super Saiyan Full Power Goku in the Cell games?

3 - Goku never fought anybody with the level of Gotenks, but SSJ 3 Gotenks is not 800% more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku. And yes, I think a fight between these two,Gotenks would Beat Goku, but a difference of 800% is too absurd to be taken into consideration.

[dbgtFO]

How do you figure the multipliers outright disagree with the manga?

[Darkprince410]

Firstly these data are from Super exciting Guides, not in the manga.

What I say mostly comes from the manga.

Second, I doubt seriously that Toriyana took a secondary character and make him more than eight times more powerful than the main character.

Except that Goku wasn't going to be the main character at this point, it was Gohan. He later changed his mind and made Goku the main character again.

Third, in previous fights a difference between 10% -20% was sufficient to defeat an opponent. An advantage over 800% is too absurd to face and fight combats in the same saga, in the same time frame.

Okay? When did Goku fight with Gotenks, or anyone on Gotenks' level?

1 - In the manga is not explicitly that the transformation of Super Saiyan 3 multiplied eight times the power of a Super Saiyan. If you find on the manga, please place here, these multipliers are from Super exciting Guides, and the multipliers disagree with the manga, you're taking this information from the Super exciting Guides, not manga.

2 - Goku was always the main character of Dragon Ball in general, though not continuously. Vegeta on Namek was the main character. In Cell games was Gohan. It is impossible to make a character more than eight times more powerful than the main character in so little time, for no reason. Just one question, is SSJ 2 Gohan eight times more powerful than Super Saiyan Full Power Goku in the Cell games?

3 - Goku never fought anybody with the level of Gotenks, but SSJ 3 Gotenks is not 800% more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku. And yes, I think a fight between these two,Gotenks would Beat Goku, but a difference of 800% is too absurd to be taken into consideration.

There's nothing in the manga that disputes or goes against those numbers though. You may disagree with the multipliers, but given that we're not shown one thing in the manga that establishes that those multipliers can't work, all there is left is just your opinion and interpretation of things.

Goku wasn't originally meant to be the main character/hero in the Buu Saga though. That's why, despite his one day return and continued observations on Kaioushin Kai, he didn't do much any fighting or have a big role to play until the very end. It was meant to shape up to have Gohan and Gotenks there as his replacements, and he just remain dead, but Toriyama eventually changed that and brought Goku back, in turn making a new form of Buu weak enough for Goku to evenly fight. Ssj2 Gohan wasn't eight times as strong, but he was over twice as strong, and in both situations it was because Toriyama's plot "demanded it".

Why is it absurd for Ssj3 Gotenks to be that much stronger than Ssj3 Goku? The manga basically establishes Ssj Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) as being as strong as him, if not stronger, and it can be argued that the boys training in the Room of Spirit and Time brought base Gotenks to a level above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus putting Ssj3 Gotenks far, far higher than just 800% stronger than Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

1 - In the manga is not explicitly that the transformation of Super Saiyan 3 multiplied eight times the power of a Super Saiyan. If you find on the manga, please place here, these multipliers are from Super exciting Guides, and the multipliers disagree with the manga, you're taking this information from the Super exciting Guides, not manga.

Even ignoring the SEG multipliers, which don't contradict anything, the manga has enough implications that prove that SS3 Gotenks is many times stronger than SS3 Goku:

• The Super Saiyan forms are implied to be multipliers in the manga, and Super Saiyan is implied to be over x40 through the fight with Freeza.
• Through their feats during their training with Gohan & Vegeta, Goten & Trunks are implied to be less than x2 weaker than the adults when in the same form.
• When first formed, base Gotenks was so amazed with his newfound power, that he though that he was stronger than Boo. This implies that base Gotenks is stronger than SS Goten or Trunks, meaning that Fusion gives a greater multiplier than the Super Saiyan multiplier, which is over x40.

Do the math, and SS Gotenks' battle power ends up being far over 4 dozens of times greater than that of SS Goku, and the same applies for SS3 Gotenks & Goku of course.

2 - Goku was always the main character of Dragon Ball in general, though not continuously. Vegeta on Namek was the main character. In Cell games was Gohan. It is impossible to make a character more than eight times more powerful than the main character in so little time, for no reason. Just one question, is SSJ 2 Gohan eight times more powerful than Super Saiyan Full Power Goku?

Vegeta wasn't the guy who would save the day on Namek. Goku saved the day up until Freeza arc, so he was made to be the strongest. In Cell arc, Gohan saved the day, so he was the strongest. The same was going to happen in Boo arc, which is why Gotenks & Gohan ended up stronger than Goku, but Toriyama changed his mind, so he weakened Boo and threw Gohan & Gotenks away so that Goku can save the day.

3 - Goku never fought anybody with the level of Gotenks, but SSJ 3 Gotenks is not 800% more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku. And yes, I think a fight between these two,Gotenks would Beat Goku, but a difference of 800% is too absurd to be taken into consideration.

Can you prove this?

[Mjb1985]

In Viz, Buutenks says he is infinitely more than he was as Fat Buu.

[freezamite]

But I don't believe that Goku's power was restored through a rage boost, I believe that the transformation itself restored his power.

How do you think that? If that was the case, then why would a SSJ need a senju bean to restore himself if just distransforming and then transforming again would restore his power?
Rage boosts have increased and replenished the user's power (yes, it's Gohan in most of the cases, but that's because he is the one with a peaceful personality that refuses to fight no matter what), and we've never seen anyone recovering himself with just a transformation.

No, it is stated that you have to get angry to transform, not get a rage boost.

The term "rage boost" is obviously never used in the manga, but if it was only a matter of getting angry, then Vegeta would've become SSJ much before Goku. Anyone can get angry in DB, but rage boosts are reserved to people with a good will, and we know only of a single bad person that got a rage boost and was under some extreme circumstances.
The whole point of the SSJ being legendary is that you need a "rage boost" and that normal sayans can't do that because of their evil peronalities (explained in the manga in a conversation between Freezer and Goku after he transforms into a SSJ for the first time).

Gohan got angry against Cell when he had to witness his friends being killed by Cell's son and #16 being destroyed by Cell, the term "rage boost" was never used there, but as I've said, the context on what's said is what matters.
To become a SSJ a sayan has to get angry, but to get angry in the same way Gohan gets angry, Goku got angry and Vegeta did. And that's what we call a "rage boost".

The narrator in the manga actually says that Goku had surpassed the Saiyan limits. In the Daizenshuu it specifically states that to become a SSJ you need a battle power above the standard of normal Saiyan's which would mean surpassing the Saiyan limit which Goku did after he finished his 100g training.

Considering that Vegeta was one of the strongest Sayans ever seen with only 18.000 of power, yes, Goku had surpassed at that point what was considered the limits of the sayans.
But "limit" in the sense of what Sayans can normally achieve (between 1000 and 10000 would be the power of normal Sayans) and not in the sense of what they could "potentially reach".

Thus Goku saying he has surpassed his limits (referring to the limits he had until then) it's true, but at the same time it's not the same as surpassing the limits of what's possible.
Let's put a real life example to clarify this. Lets suppose I have a friend that has never done any exercise and weights 150kg. Lets suppose that for him it takes 60 seconds to run 100 meters going as fast as he can the whole time. That's clearly his limit at that point, but if he trains for let's say a month and he loses let's say 20 kilos, and he does the 100 meters test again, he'll surely be much faster than before. He will have surpassed his limits.

But as you may imagine by now, there will be a point in which it won't matter how much he trains, he will never improve (at best he will sustain his peak). He will never be able to run those 100 meters in 5 seconds, and when the point of no progress is reached, then those are the kinds of limits I'm talking about.

Vegeta explained that pretty well. He reached a point where no matter how hard he trained he couldn't make any progress and he was at the same time envious of Goku and that other mysterious SSJ. His huge pride coupled with the impotence of seeing two "inferior beings" becoming what he was dreaming to become and him being unable not only to transform into a SSJ but also to even progress is what unleashed that feeling that in normal circumstances only the pure people can have.

If Trunks had been much much stronger than Goku then Gohan would have attributed it to Goku now being 100% as opposed to his original fight with Freeza in which he only recovered a little of his strength and turned SSJ. his is really open to interpretation. Gohan could be thinking "Wow! So this is what my fathers Ki is like when he has full power!"

No, this is only open to interpretation if we use that fallacy of "I read what I want to read but not what's written". Yes, Gohan could be thinking that, and Pilaf could also be a SSJ3+ warrior hiding his strength.
And regarding Goku recovering "a little" of his strength, when he dodged an attack of 100% Freezer... well, another "I read what I want and not what's written". We've had dozens of rage boosts in the series and they NEVER resulted in "a little recovery", never, under any single circumstance. You say this was the exception, then prove it with something more than "he probably was thinking that but he didn't say it".

If Gohan was thinking that, then there was no point in hiding it not only from the other z-fighters, but also for hiding it to us the readers. If it wasn't written nor implied, then it wasn't there.

With all the evidence if Goku had reached 100% and turned SSJ the first time then Gohan would have questioned the ki he was sensing. From the battle we see of Goku vs Trunks, Goku is obviously the stronger SSJ. Standing completely still and fending off Trunks with nothing but his finger.

Trunks only tested Goku, and he didn't attack at full force either. You can't take that as a reference of the strength Trunks had at that moment.

Gohan would have wondered why his father's ki has decreased rather than stayed the same or increased.

Besides the fact that Trunks wasn't inferior to Goku, at that point of the series Gohan perfectly knew that Goku was able to hide his ki. So no, Gohan wouldn't have wondered why Goku's ki had decreased because he knew that his father could hide his ki at will and he could have been fighting at 90% of his capacity to say something.

Now you're just making things up.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. It's not that different than when you say "Gohan didn't say this, but he could've been thinking it", the only difference is that I'm only putting an ultra-exaggerated example to show you that this kind of reasoning is fallacious.

SSJ Trunks and Goku's SSJ Namek battle power are never once compared.

They're compared to a point where Gohan confuses Trunks with his father... taking Goku's ki in Namek as a reference. If that's not a comparison, please someone tell me what a comparison is.

There is as much evidence to say they aren't the same as they are. Nothing contradicts Goku being close to Trunks or being much weaker than Trunks.

Gohan confusing Trunks with his father, and not saying anything about any increase in his power, contradicts Goku being much weaker.
Nothing contradicts Pilaf being a SSJ3+ warrior hiding his true identity to train Goku to defeat (let's say) Raditz (he saw him coming to the earth in a dream, hey, nothing contradicts that because it's never written in the manga that Pilaf didn't have a dream about Raditz), but since it's not written nor implied it has happened.

You are just making assumptions based on what isn't said.

Which reminds me of:

Gohan could be thinking "Wow! So this is what my fathers Ki is like when he has full power!"

Either he had 100% fighting against Freeza or he gained a small percentage of his full power. Both sides aren't contradicted. We can only make assumptions.

What's not said is never contradicted either. As I've said, every single rage boost has given the user much, much, more than a "little recovery" (and also much more than a full recovery). Not only that, but that "little recovery" was enough for Goku to dodge one of 100% Freezer's kienzans, which is impressive even considering Freezer's injuries and how tired he was at that point. We also see him without any sign of visible tiredness, so tell me, in what FACTS can the "he only regained a little fraction of his strength" theory be supported?

Yes, the manga contradicts that idea. What the manga doesn't contradict is whether Goku only received a small portion of his base power back or 100% of his power.

Why is that exactly, may I ask? I mean, the manga contradicts Pilaf being a super strong warrior because it's never implied. In the same way, every single rage boost fuelled the user beyond their previous limit, the SSJ is precisely described as the form that a sayan has when surpasses the it's potential limits, and Goku became a SSJ.
Furthermore, he turned back at his base state and he accomplished some feats he probably would've been able to accomplish before, and no signs of him being tired or below his maximum potential are shown.

So why is that the manga implies Pilaf not being a super strong warrior, but then it doesn't imply a full recovery for Goku?

I can see that 100% Goku is entirely possible idea. But also is him only getting a small amount of strength back.

I've told you my reasons to think he was at his 100%. Now you should at least tell me what makes you think he wasn't, or at least, what makes you consider that possibility.

As I said above it is impossible to prove whether Goku only regained a part of his strength or all of it

No. All of it (in fact, more than what he ever had prior to the rage boost) is what's happened in the manga since the first rage boost. Why is that this is an exception to that rule?

We can both come up with valid reasons for one idea or the other.

Here's the problem. I still haven't read a single reason to justify he was weaker. You're saying that my reasons are somewhat valid but that there are other reasons that imply that Goku only regained a tiny fraction of his strength, well then, tell me those reasons.

All we are doing is taking what is said in the manga and through our own perspectives trying to prove our points.

And what's said in the manga that proves that Goku didn't regain all his strength?
He performed feats that imply him reaching even higher levels than before, he wasn't exhausted nor anything that could imply him not being at his 100%, Gohan mistook Trunks (a healed SSJ) when he fought against Freezer (he was serious against Mecha Freezer, by the way) with Goku on Namek and never says anything about him being stronger. We have every single rage boost upgrading the fighter beyond what he could do before enraging. Everything points to a full recovery + increased power to me, and "Gohan could've thought that his father was much stronger than in Namek but we didn't see it" is not comparable to that list of solid facts to me.

I say he didn't comment on their ki difference because Goku only got a small portion of strength back on Namek and Gohan believes that what he was sensing now was SSJ Goku at full strength.

Yes, in the same way you say that Pilaf was weak, and I say that Pilaf was strong but hiding his power. Gohan says he sense the SAME ki he sensed in Namek, and he says nothing about it being stronger. The problem here is that you take a sentence of the manga ("it's the same ki") and say "hey, it says it's the same and not the same amount, which means that it was of the same kind but dozens of times stronger", and you say that based on... nothing. If Trunks was dozens of times stronger than Goku (the result of him only recovering a tiny amount of strength) then that would've been said. Things like that are not hidden from the readers, like Pilaf's SSJ3-like super-strength. It wasn't there, so it's false.

For once, show me SOMETHING that was on the manga and that supports that theory.

I'm sorry, but getting punched in the stomach and headbutt isn't going to reduce Gohan all of his ki down to near 0.

Krilin was reduced to 0 with a single hit in his face, and Gohan that was at Krilin's level or even lower wouldn't be the same you say?

So for now we have:
SSJ transformations that work like senzu beans. Of course, that's never seen in the manga again, it was a once in a lifetime situation.
Rage boosts that only regain a bit of strength, and again, it's only seen there in the manga and without any explanation, it's just there.
And now we have that Gohan can't lose ki with two hits, when everyone else can. Of course, that's also for this concrete case.

More than reasons, this sounds like excuses to me.

If he had broken his neck, then yes.

Gohan's ki wasn't at exactly 0 (death). He was just really exhausted by the beating, in the same sense Goku was at that point also exhausted and he had his neck in place. Please, start to give reasons instead of putting excuses. Thanks.

Gohan may be on the floor but it is only due to pain. Children aren't accustomed to being smashed about.

And why was Krilin also on the floor? Was he some kind of kid or anything like that? I'm starting to think that we're not debating. You'll just be unable to admit that you may have been wrong, because man, between the senju-bean SSJ transformations, the partial rage boosts and now Gohan lying on the floor undamaged but with "pain" due to the age while Krilin (an adult and an experienced fighter) was dispatched with a single kick...

Do you have proof Gohan couldn't stand up?

Did he stand up? No, he didn't, and considering that he was in front of Vegeta, if he could stand up he would've done it. I don't know of anyone that stays lying on the floor while someone that tries to kill him approaches, if he can move.
Gohan only moves when he gets the rage boost, and he even says to Goku (chapter 236 page 9) "I... I can't even move..." that's the fact here.

So again, we have a weakened Gohan that says that he is unable to move, we have Krilin who has been left in the floor with a single kick (also unable to move) and you come here saying there was no proof that Gohan "wasn't lying" to us the readers and that he could move because he was close to his full strength, but he just didn't want to move.

Again, you are discussing basing your reasons in suppositions that in the best case are never suggested, and in the worst cases they're directly contradicted but that's fine because there will always be an excuse to justify them (for example, the same meaning much bigger or Gohan straight up lying when he said that he couldn't move after receiving Vegeta's attack). And yes, I can't proof that Gohan wasn't lying (lying in the sense of not telling the truth, not in the sense of lying in the ground which clearly was the case) nor that when he said "the same" he really meant "the same kind but dozens of times bigger". I can't prove that, but the burden of proof is clearly on you, so while you don't give me a solid reason to think that Gohan is a liar then it's Pilaf at SSJ3 level or me not answering to those excuses any more.

Goku said for Gohan to go fight Vegeta because Vegeta had been weakened. Do you really think Goku would be saying that if Gohan couldn't fight?

And wasn't in fact Goku very aware of Gohan's rage boosts?

But it could be like the Super Saiyan multiplier being 50x, where it wouldn't make sense otherwise and Toriyama would have to go with it despite it being a bit too extreme for his tastes.

Stop spreading false information. Toriyama drew the manga with 10x on mind, not only 10x base state, but 10x what Goku had been until then (which could perfectly be 2x his new increased-by-the-rage base state). 50x is not what's drawn on the manga, it's never implied by anything and in fact it directly contradicts the manga until you can prove me wrong based on MANGA FACTS.

[Darkprince410]

Anyone can get angry in DB, but rage boosts are reserved to people with a good will, and we know only of a single bad person that got a rage boost and was under some extreme circumstances.
The whole point of the SSJ being legendary is that you need a "rage boost" and that normal sayans can't do that because of their evil peronalities (explained in the manga in a conversation between Freezer and Goku after he transforms into a SSJ for the first time).

What? Since when is a "rage boost" inherent to only those with good wills, and furthermore, since when do characters have legitimate rage boosts other than Gohan (Vegeta's BoG situation being the one real exception)? Being good or evil was never once mentioned as being why most Saiya-jin couldn't transform, as all that was said was that Goku's tranquil heart (tranquil having nothing to do with being good or evil, just calm/peaceful) was awakened through intense rage. Nothing there about needing to be good or evil, as an evil person could still have a tranquil heart, and nothing there suggesting any boost in strength as a result of his anger.

But it could be like the Super Saiyan multiplier being 50x, where it wouldn't make sense otherwise and Toriyama would have to go with it despite it being a bit too extreme for his tastes.

Stop spreading false information. Toriyama drew the manga with 10x on mind, not only 10x base state, but 10x what Goku had been until then (which could perfectly be 2x his new increased-by-the-rage base state). 50x is not what's drawn on the manga, it's never implied by anything and in fact it directly contradicts the manga until you can prove me wrong based on MANGA FACTS.

Except that he acknowledges that it was established as being 50x.

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

To me, it's like he's suggesting that he drew Goku's physical appearance as a Super Saiya-jin with the muscle mass and everything if he were only 10x stronger than his base, because if he drew it to convey the 50x it would look far too exaggerated (like Ssj 3rd Grade size or worse).

There's no way that it could be a simple 10x increase, because we see that Kaiou-ken 10x wasn't anywhere close to 50% Freeza, and even if his power recovered all the way following his transformation (there's absolutely nothing saying or suggesting that Goku's base increased from his rage) and taking Freeza's damage from the Genki Dama into account, 10x wouldn't cover the considerable gap that would exist between the two, especially after Freeza went to full power. Super Saiya-jin needed to be well over 20x Goku's base to be able to casually beat around 50% Freeza, and in turn would need to be over 40x to be able to fight and surpass 100% Freeza, which is why 50x works just fine when looking at the manga.

[Rocketman]

Wouldn't "10x what he'd been up til that point" be 10x the Kaioken x20...aka, a 200x increase?

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Even ignoring the SEG multipliers, which don't contradict anything, the manga has enough implications that prove that SS3 Gotenks is many times stronger than SS3 Goku:

• The Super Saiyan forms are implied to be multipliers in the manga, and Super Saiyan is implied to be over x40 through the fight with Freeza.
• Through their feats during their training with Gohan & Vegeta, Goten & Trunks are implied to be less than x2 weaker than the adults when in the same form.
• When first formed, base Gotenks was so amazed with his newfound power, that he though that he was stronger than Boo. This implies that base Gotenks is stronger than SS Goten or Trunks, meaning that Fusion gives a greater multiplier than the Super Saiyan multiplier, which is over x40.

Do the math, and SS Gotenks' battle power ends up being far over 4 dozens of times greater than that of SS Goku, and the same applies for SS3 Gotenks & Goku of course.

2 - Goku was always the main character of Dragon Ball in general, though not continuously. Vegeta on Namek was the main character. In Cell games was Gohan. It is impossible to make a character more than eight times more powerful than the main character in so little time, for no reason. Just one question, is SSJ 2 Gohan eight times more powerful than Super Saiyan Full Power Goku?

Vegeta wasn't the guy who would save the day on Namek. Goku saved the day up until Freeza arc, so he was made to be the strongest. In Cell arc, Gohan saved the day, so he was the strongest. The same was going to happen in Boo arc, which is why Gotenks & Gohan ended up stronger than Goku, but Toriyama changed his mind, so he weakened Boo and threw Gohan & Gotenks away so that Goku can save the day.

3 - Goku never fought anybody with the level of Gotenks, but SSJ 3 Gotenks is not 800% more powerful than SSJ 3 Goku. And yes, I think a fight between these two,Gotenks would Beat Goku, but a difference of 800% is too absurd to be taken into consideration.

Can you prove this?

1 - For the manga, there is no mention of multiplier being 50X. When Toriyama designed the manga design for the fight against Frieza, he had in mind 10 times the size of the boost. Be 40 or 50 times the base power, is pure propaganda from Daizenshuu. Show to me from manga in the fight against Frieza, Goku had a boost of 50 times in power from his base,I repeat manga, nothing from Daizenshuu. I do not care about Daizenshuu numbers at all.

"Through their feats during their training with Gohan & Vegeta, Goten & Trunks are implied to be less than x2 weaker than the adults when in the same form."
You again take this information from the Daizenshuu (books 2,3, or 4, I do not care) . In Daizenshuu, there is the information that the brats are not far from the potential of the fathers. I could counter that with Gohan and Vegeta were also not serious in the training time against the brats.


"When first formed, base Gotenks was so amazed with his newfound power, that he though that he was stronger than Boo. This implies that base Gotenks is stronger than SS Goten or Trunks, meaning that Fusion gives a greater multiplier than the Super Saiyan multiplier, which is over x40."

"Do the math, and SS Gotenks' battle power ends up being far over 4 dozens of times greater than that of SS Goku, and the same applies for SS3 Gotenks & Goku of course."

Gotenks is too cocky to take seriously. According to Trunks, Gotenks in base form (in the ROSAT - the conversation between him and Goten) has a power near Fat Buu - after training the ROSAT, of course this is not the case. You're taking statements from a cocky character to prove something so little there. I say again, when Torriyama designed the manga and the fight against Frieza, the increase or multiplier (50X) did not exist in the head of Toriyama . The multiplier is only 50 times in the Daizenshuu. For me the Daizenshuu is as valuable as a filler. Second, the manga does not prove anything that fusion of dance has a higher multiplier than Super Saiyan. Goku only says that when the brats do the fusion, it will appear a more powerful warrior more powerful than Goku - the conversation between Goku and Fat Buu and more later with Piccolo (Goku does not show whether it was in the form of Base, SSJ 1 or SSJ 2), Picccolo says after Gotens (in base form) lead a shitload of Fat Buu, they should train the fusion one more day at the highest level (highest level of Super Saiyan) possible.


"Vegeta wasn't the guy who would save the day on Namek. Goku saved the day up until Freeza arc, so he was made to be the strongest. In Cell arc, Gohan saved the day, so he was the strongest. The same was going to happen in Boo arc, which is why Gotenks & Gohan ended up stronger than Goku, but Toriyama changed his mind, so he weakened Boo and threw Gohan & Gotenks away so that Goku can save the day."

But it was Goku who taught the fusion for the brats. And when Gohan failed, Goku was again the savior of the manga. Your mistake, it is to seek another four or five chapters of the manga and take this information as absolute truth. You have to see the information in context. Example, when Kaioshin appeared, Kaioshin was a very powerful character, but in later chapters, Toriyama reveal that Kaioshin is not so powerful. Taking a phrase out of context to prove your point of view, has no foundation. The manga was an ongoing series, then our argument has to be continuous. And be the main or secondary character has nothing to do with heroes or villains. A character may be main character and be the Villain at same time (Vegeta - in the Namek saga ) or hero and the main character (Gohan in the Cell Games Saga).

"Can you prove this?"

Yes I can prove, to be more than 800% is absolutely false. In the case of Super Saiyan Gotenks be more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and using the multipliers (which most of the people of this site loves so much) from Super Exciting Guides, then the multiplier of SSJ 3 is over eight times higher than a Super Saiyan, SSJ 3 Gotenks has power over 800% higher than SSJ 3 Goku, by the multipliers from Super Exceting Guides.
First these multipliers appear in SEG (the Super exciting Guides launched in 2008-13 years after the conclusion of the manga - Toriyama has nothing to do with these books.).
Second, in previous sagas, percentages ranging from 10% to 35%, with experienced fighters, they have an abysmal difference between them and a person with this difference could win and being upper and easily superior to its opponent (Cui, Vegeta Dodoria, Ginyu, Frieza, Goku, Tien, Piccolo, etc...)
A difference of over 800% between two characters from the same saga at the same point in time , even in DB is too ridiculous to take seriously.
Third, the SEG multipliers are totally irrelevant to me.And these multipliers contradict the manga in every possible aspect.