Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense...

[Rocketman]

1 - For the manga, there is no mention of multiplier being 50X. When Toriyama designed the manga design for the fight against Freeza, he had in mind 10 times the size of the boost. Be 40 or 50 times the base power, is pure propaganda from Daizenshuu. Show to me from manga in the fight against Freeza, Goku had a boost of 50 times in power from his base,I repeat manga, nothing from Daizenshuu. I do not care about Daizenshuu numbers at all.

Kaioken x20 is even with 50% Freeza.

[dbgtFO]

But it could be like the Super Saiyan multiplier being 50x, where it wouldn't make sense otherwise and Toriyama would have to go with it despite it being a bit too extreme for his tastes.

Stop spreading false information. Toriyama drew the manga with 10x on mind, not only 10x base state, but 10x what Goku had been until then (which could perfectly be 2x his new increased-by-the-rage base state). 50x is not what's drawn on the manga, it's never implied by anything and in fact it directly contradicts the manga until you can prove me wrong based on MANGA FACTS.

How exactly am I spreading false information?

[DannyDBZfanforever]

1 - For the manga, there is no mention of multiplier being 50X. When Toriyama designed the manga design for the fight against Freeza, he had in mind 10 times the size of the boost. Be 40 or 50 times the base power, is pure propaganda from Daizenshuu. Show to me from manga in the fight against Freeza, Goku had a boost of 50 times in power from his base,I repeat manga, nothing from Daizenshuu. I do not care about Daizenshuu numbers at all.

Kaioken x20 is even with 50% Freeza.

I was talking about the form of Super Saiyan. Kaio-O-Ken is a technique, not a transformation. It does not exist in the manga a fixed multiplier for the Super Saiyan number. I could come here and I come up and say it's 21 or 25, who cares. But in the battle against Frieza, and after beating Goku took, I doubt that is much greater than 10 times. In this case, I just demonstrate my mere opinion, nothing more.

[Darkprince410]

1)

For the manga, there is no mention of multiplier being 50X. When Toriyama designed the manga design for the fight against Freeza, he had in mind 10 times the size of the boost. Be 40 or 50 times the base power, is pure propaganda from Daizenshuu. Show to me from manga in the fight against Freeza, Goku had a boost of 50 times in power from his base,I repeat manga, nothing from Daizenshuu. I do not care about Daizenshuu numbers at all.

Goku was shown to not be able to do any appreciable damage to 50% Full Power Freeza while utilizing the 20x Kaiou-ken, and was easily getting beat around when only using the 10x. Since he was essentially fresh when using the 10x early on, nothing is said or suggested that his base battle power increased as a result of transforming into a Super Saiya-jin, and that while Freeza took some damage from the Genki Dama, it wasn't some insane "cut in half" decrease, that would indicate that Super Saiya-jin would need to be well above 20x to be able to effortlessly beat around 50% Full Power Freeza, and well over twice that strong to be able to fight so well against 100% Full Power Freeza (i.e. well over 40x his base form). Thus the 50x works in the context of the manga.

2)

You again take this information from the Daizenshuu (books 2,3, or 4, I do not care) . In Daizenshuu, there is information that the brats are not far from the potential of the fathers. I could counter that with Gohan and Vegeta were also not serious in the training time against the brats.

Gohan admits to himself though that if he doesn't start picking up the pace, he'll get surpassed by Goten and Trunks.

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.3-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

3)

Gotenks is too cocky to take seriously. According to Trunks, Gotenks in base has a power near Fat Buu - after training the ROSAT, of course this is not the case. You're taking statements from a cocky character to prove something so little there. I say again, when Torriyama designed the manga and the fight against Freeza, the increase or multiplier (50X) did not exist in the head of Toriyama . The multiplier is only 50 times in the Daizenshuu. For me the Daizenshuu is as valuable as a filler. Second, the manga does not prove anything that fusion of dance has a higher multiplier than Super Saiyan. Goku only says that when the brats do the fusion, it will appear a more powerful warrior more powerful than Goku - the conversation between Goku and Fat Buu (Goku does not show whether it was in the form of Base, SSJ 1 or SSJ 2), Picccolo says after Gotens (in base form) lead a shitload of Fat Buu, they should train the fusion one more day at the highest level (highest level of Super Saiyan) possible.

As mentioned before, the 50x works in the context of the manga, and the whole "10x" thing has its basis on the design of Goku's muscles, not necessarily his actual strength. As for Gotenks' abilities, no one is actually using what Trunks/Goten say about Gotenks' strength, but instead Goku and the others. Goku, having seen how powerful the boys are, and having seen the power of the fusion dance, establishes that Gotenks would be able to do what he (Goku) as a Super Saiya-jin 3 stated he couldn't. Since Gotenks is only capable of Super Saiya-jin at this time (he advocated against the boys using the Room of Spirit and Time seeing it as unnecessary to defeat Fat Buu), that would mean that Goku established that Ssj Gotenks, prior to the boys training in the Room of Spirit and Time, would be stronger than he was as a Super Saiya-jin 3.

In turn, nothing is ever said that Ssj Gotenks lacked that power when the boys did eventually form him, and later, when the boys formed into base Gotenks after their training, Piccolo even suggested that they may be strong enough in their base form to do what Ssj Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) wouldn't be able to do. This base Gotenks (post RoSaT) potentially being stronger than Ssj3 Goku, or at the very least absolutely stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, which is again suggested in the Daizenshuu.

4)

Yes I can prove, to be more than 800% is absolutely false. In the case of Super Saiyan Gotenks be more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and using multipliers (which most of the people of this site loves so much) from Super Exciting Guides, then the multiplier of SSJ 3 is eight times higher than a Super Saiyan, SSJ 3 Gotenks has power over 800% higher than SSJ 3 Goku, by the multipliers from Super Exceting Guides.
First these multipliers appear in SEG (the SUper exciting Guides launched in 2008-13 years after the conclusion of the manga - Toriyama has nothing to do with these books.).
Second, in previous sagas, percentages ranging from 10% to 33%, and experienced fighters have an abysmal difference between them and a person with this difference could win without and upper and easily superior to its opponent. (Cui, Vegeta Dodoria, Ginyu, Freeza, Goku, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, etc...)
A difference of over 800% between two characters from the same saga, even in DB is too ridiculous to take seriously.
Third, the SEG multipliers are totally irrelevant to me.And these multipliers contradict the manga in every possible aspect.

The first one and third reasons are irrelevant. Even if you don't agree with them, the SEG and the Daizenshuu are still official databooks, endorsed and supported by Toriyama. If I recall, Toriyama's actual opinion on the Daizenshuu was that he wished they had existed when he was writing the manga, so he could use them for reference. If the original creator wished he had them, then that tends to greatly support how reliable and accurate the info in them is.

The second one, again, I've pointed out why it doesn't work. You and a few others feel that just because an established gap in power in two instances, both of which involved fighters with no combat experience whatsoever who relied solely on just brute strength and their overwhelming power over their opponents to win, that the gap would have to remain the same throughout the series to explain strength differences. A simple way of proving that the gap is irrelevant is to compare Goku using the Kaiou-ken against Vegeta. While Vegeta did have the strength and speed advantage with a gap of 11% between the two, Goku was still holding his own and not getting easily overwhelmed the same as Kui or Dodoria were.

However, right off the bat, during the Saiya-jin Saga we have Goku and Piccolo fighting and surviving (for the most part) against Raditz, who is at least 3x as strong as they are. By your assumptions, Goku and Piccolo should have died instantly the moment Raditz attacked them, but their strength and endurance helped to counter that. Then, during the Freeza Saga, Goku was managing to survive blows from Freeza, while the latter was well over 20x as powerful as he was, again due to his endurance. Insane gaps in strength are nothing new to the franchise, so a relatively minor one like 8x is hardly out of the question.

I was talking about the form of Super Saiyan. Kaio-O-Ken is a technique, not a transformation. It does not exist in the manga a fixed multiplier for the Super Saiyan number. I could come here and I come up and say it's 21 or 25, who cares. But in the battle against Freeza, and after beating Goku took, I doubt that is much greater than 10 times. In this case, I just demonstrate my mere opinion, nothing more.

He was saying that the fact that Kaiou-ken 20x was at/below Freeza's 50% full power is proof enough that Super Saiya-jin is 50x, as it would take something at least twice as strong as Kaiou-ken 20x to be able to match Freeza's full, 100% power, thus at least a 40x battle power increase.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How do you think that? If that was the case, then why would a SSJ need a senju bean to restore himself if just distransforming and then transforming again would restore his power?
Rage boosts have increased and replenished the user's power (yes, it's Gohan in most of the cases, but that's because he is the one with a peaceful personality that refuses to fight no matter what), and we've never seen anyone recovering himself with just a transformation.

I mean because it was his first transformation. It restored his power because it was his first time.

The term "rage boost" is obviously never used in the manga, but if it was only a matter of getting angry, then Vegeta would've become SSJ much before Goku. Anyone can get angry in DB, but rage boosts are reserved to people with a good will, and we know only of a single bad person that got a rage boost and was under some extreme circumstances.

But it's not just anger, as stated in the manga. According to the manga, another requirement is having a tranquil heart, which Vegeta didn't have up until Freeza arc according to Freeza, and there is also the requirement of having high battle power.

The whole point of the SSJ being legendary is that you need a "rage boost" and that normal sayans can't do that because of their evil peronalities (explained in the manga in a conversation between Freezer and Goku after he transforms into a SSJ for the first time).

Could you show me the statement?

Gohan got angry against Cell when he had to witness his friends being killed by Cell's son and #16 being destroyed by Cell, the term "rage boost" was never used there, but as I've said, the context on what's said is what matters.
To become a SSJ a sayan has to get angry, but to get angry in the same way Gohan gets angry, Goku got angry and Vegeta did. And that's what we call a "rage boost".

What we, the fans, call "rage boost" is the ability to get stronger through anger but without transforming. In the manga, the only one that ever did this was Gohan, and he did this multiple times. Goku & Vegeta never did that in the manga.

1 - For the manga, there is no mention of multiplier being 50X. When Toriyama designed the manga design for the fight against Freeza, he had in mind 10 times the size of the boost. Be 40 or 50 times the base power, is pure propaganda from Daizenshuu. Show to me from manga in the fight against Freeza, Goku had a boost of 50 times in power from his base,I repeat manga, nothing from Daizenshuu. I do not care about Daizenshuu numbers at all.

And I never mentioned the x50 multiplier. But Goku could only rival 50% Freeza with a Kaio-ken x20, meaning that he would have to get a x40 boost to rival 100% Freeza. However, SS Goku was stronger than 100% Freeza, meaning that the SS boost is over x40.

You again take this information from the Daizenshuu (books 2,3, or 4, I do not care) . In Daizenshuu, there is the information that the brats are not far from the potential of the fathers.

I didn't take them from any guidebook, everything I mentioned there is purely from the manga.

I could counter that with Gohan and Vegeta were also not serious in the training time against the brats.

Gohan was doing serious training, there is no reason to hold back in training. And Vegeta wouldn't have been forced to punch Trunks and stop him if he was just holding back.

Gotenks is too cocky to take seriously.

I'm aware, but why would he get cocky if this isn't the greatest power he had ever reached? And there isn't only that, there is also the fact that Piccolo couldn't stop him from running away, meaning that base Gotenks is stronger than Piccolo. Plus, Toriyama said that he wanted to make something stronger than Super Saiyan, so he came up with Fusion:

If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”, and Katsura-kun (Masakazu Katsura-sensei), who I usually just joke around and say idiotic things with, said, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.” So I said, “Whoa, sometimes even you say something good. It’s the first time you’ve ever made yourself useful.” (laughs) That’s how that plot point was born.

But it was Goku who taught the fusion for the brats. And when Gohan failed, Goku was again the savior of the manga. Your mistake, it is to seek another four or five chapters of the manga and take this information as absolute truth. You have to see the information in context. Example, when Kaioshin appeared, Kaioshin was a very powerful character, but in later chapters, Toriyama reveal that Kaioshin is not so powerful. Taking a phrase out of context to prove your point of view, has no foundation. The manga was an ongoing series, then our argument has to be continuous. And be the main or secondary character has nothing to do with heroes or villains. A character may be main character and be the Villain at same time (Vegeta - in the Namek saga ) or hero and the main character (Gohan in the Cell Games Saga).

Goku was going to stay dead, and Gohan would have been the one that would kill Boo. Then Toriyama decided that Gohan wasn't fitting for the role, and brought back Goku to save the day.

First these multipliers appear in SEG (the Super exciting Guides launched in 2008-13 years after the conclusion of the manga - Toriyama has nothing to do with these books.).

Toriyama approved these books.

Second, in previous sagas, percentages ranging from 10% to 35%, with experienced fighters, they have an abysmal difference between them and a person with this difference could win and being upper and easily superior to its opponent (Cui, Vegeta Dodoria, Ginyu, Freeza, Goku, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, etc...)
A difference of over 800% between two characters from the same saga at the same point in time , even in DB is too ridiculous to take seriously.

You just don't like it, this isn't a contradiction. If Goku had fought Gohan, Gotenks, or Evil Boo, and we had seen and even fight, then you had won. But nothing like this ever happened, and Goku said that even with Vegeta's help, he wouldn't stand a chance against Evil Boo, unless they were merged. Which means that their difference in power really is huge.

Third, the SEG multipliers are totally irrelevant to me.And these multipliers contradict the manga in every possible aspect.

But how do the SEG multipliers contradict the manga?

[Hitiro]

The narrator in the manga actually says that Goku had surpassed the Saiyan limits. In the Daizenshuu it specifically states that to become a SSJ you need a battle power above the standard of normal Saiyan's which would mean surpassing the Saiyan limit which Goku did after he finished his 100g training.

Considering that Vegeta was one of the strongest Sayans ever seen with only 18.000 of power, yes, Goku had surpassed at that point what was considered the limits of the sayans.
But "limit" in the sense of what Sayans can normally achieve (between 1000 and 10000 would be the power of normal Sayans) and not in the sense of what they could "potentially reach".

Thus Goku saying he has surpassed his limits (referring to the limits he had until then) it's true, but at the same time it's not the same as surpassing the limits of what's possible.
Let's put a real life example to clarify this. Lets suppose I have a friend that has never done any exercise and weights 150kg. Lets suppose that for him it takes 60 seconds to run 100 meters going as fast as he can the whole time. That's clearly his limit at that point, but if he trains for let's say a month and he loses let's say 20 kilos, and he does the 100 meters test again, he'll surely be much faster than before. He will have surpassed his limits.

But as you may imagine by now, there will be a point in which it won't matter how much he trains, he will never improve (at best he will sustain his peak). He will never be able to run those 100 meters in 5 seconds, and when the point of no progress is reached, then those are the kinds of limits I'm talking about.

Vegeta explained that pretty well. He reached a point where no matter how hard he trained he couldn't make any progress and he was at the same time envious of Goku and that other mysterious SSJ. His huge pride coupled with the impotence of seeing two "inferior beings" becoming what he was dreaming to become and him being unable not only to transform into a SSJ but also to even progress is what unleashed that feeling that in normal circumstances only the pure people can have.

You say this but, as I said, the narrator is the one telling us that Goku had surpassed the Saiyan limits. And that was considered the necessary requirement. There is really no need to mince the words of the narrator of the manga. He clearly defines Goku as surpassing the "Saiyan" limit.

If Trunks had been much much stronger than Goku then Gohan would have attributed it to Goku now being 100% as opposed to his original fight with Freeza in which he only recovered a little of his strength and turned SSJ. his is really open to interpretation. Gohan could be thinking "Wow! So this is what my fathers Ki is like when he has full power!"

No, this is only open to interpretation if we use that fallacy of "I read what I want to read but not what's written". Yes, Gohan could be thinking that, and Pilaf could also be a SSJ3+ warrior hiding his strength.
And regarding Goku recovering "a little" of his strength, when he dodged an attack of 100% Freezer... well, another "I read what I want and not what's written". We've had dozens of rage boosts in the series and they NEVER resulted in "a little recovery", never, under any single circumstance. You say this was the exception, then prove it with something more than "he probably was thinking that but he didn't say it".

If Gohan was thinking that, then there was no point in hiding it not only from the other z-fighters, but also for hiding it to us the readers. If it wasn't written nor implied, then it wasn't there.

It's a logical assumption but just because it isn't there doesn't mean it isn't true. But you are doing exactly what I'm doing. "I read what I want to read but not what's written." It is never said that Goku's power was at 100% when he first went SSJ. You are just assuming that. You can say we've had dozens of rage boosts in the series but you can't say they never resulted in "a little recovery" because there has never been such an example. The only real rage boosts we are aware of are Gohan's and he has never been in a state where had no power and recovered it all.

This isn't an exception. You are assuming all rage boosts recover 100% but you can't possibly know that because no character other than Goku has had little to no ki left. Gohan has ALWAYS still had a good portion of ki when he has had rage boosts.

Gohan going from 75% ki to 125% ki is not recovering 100% am I correct? You tried to accuse Gohan of having no ki during the Vegeta battle just because he got punched in the stomach and then headbutt. But Gohan had taken a senzu bean previous and was at 100%. Even if he took two hits they weren't serious damage. Vegeta was toying with him and egging him on to fight. He had in no way lost all of his ki from those two blows. So you can't possibly say he recovered all his ki.

With all the evidence if Goku had reached 100% and turned SSJ the first time then Gohan would have questioned the ki he was sensing. From the battle we see of Goku vs Trunks, Goku is obviously the stronger SSJ. Standing completely still and fending off Trunks with nothing but his finger.

Trunks only tested Goku, and he didn't attack at full force either. You can't take that as a reference of the strength Trunks had at that moment.

Trunks was trying a lot harder than Goku. The fact that Goku restricted himself to blocking it with just a finger is enough of a feat to say that Goku > Trunks.

Gohan would have wondered why his father's ki has decreased rather than stayed the same or increased.

Besides the fact that Trunks wasn't inferior to Goku, at that point of the series Gohan perfectly knew that Goku was able to hide his ki. So no, Gohan wouldn't have wondered why Goku's ki had decreased because he knew that his father could hide his ki at will and he could have been fighting at 90% of his capacity to say something.

Why would Goku go SSJ and suppress his ki? If the world was in danger then there would be no reason. Also it has been proven that if you are at your maximum strength then it can be sensed. So if Trunks was fighting at 100% nobody would assume he wasn't.

Now you're just making things up.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. It's not that different than when you say "Gohan didn't say this, but he could've been thinking it", the only difference is that I'm only putting an ultra-exaggerated example to show you that this kind of reasoning is fallacious.

No, you treated that as if it was true. All I am doing is providing an opinion on what could be happening as we are trying to determine things. You are treating your opinion as fact. You have no proof every rage boost give back all your ki. There are no examples of it doing so. Any rage boosts that have happened have always involved the user having a good portion of their ki. So them getting back to 100% just means that they received a portion of ki. Not 100%.

Current Ki: 75% + Rage Boost: 50% is not the same as Current Ki: 1% + Rage Boost: 50%. Is it? Can you say Goku got all of his Ki back now? Can you provide me with legitimate proof of a character weakened to Goku's state getting back to 100%? There is no such example.

SSJ Trunks and Goku's SSJ Namek battle power are never once compared.

They're compared to a point where Gohan confuses Trunks with his father... taking Goku's ki in Namek as a reference. If that's not a comparison, please someone tell me what a comparison is.

Gohan confuses the feel of the ki, not the size of it. Gohan sensed a SSJ. That is all. It never pertained to the size of the individuals ki. You are the one assuming that just because the size wasn't mentioned has to mean that Goku and Trunks are both around the same ki amount. But the opposite can also be true. Gohan knows Goku had little to no ki left before the transformation. And there is nothing to say that Gohan isn't assuming this is what Goku's ki would be like if he was at 100%. The manga makes it clear that the confusion between the two SSJ ki's is from their feel, not size. You are also making assumptions. See? As I said. We can both make assumptions on what is not said. And ki size isn't mentioned so we can take it both ways.

There is as much evidence to say they aren't the same as they are. Nothing contradicts Goku being close to Trunks or being much weaker than Trunks.

Gohan confusing Trunks with his father, and not saying anything about any increase in his power, contradicts Goku being much weaker.
Nothing contradicts Pilaf being a SSJ3+ warrior hiding his true identity to train Goku to defeat (let's say) Raditz (he saw him coming to the earth in a dream, hey, nothing contradicts that because it's never written in the manga that Pilaf didn't have a dream about Raditz), but since it's not written nor implied it has happened.

But you are assuming that just because he doesn't say anything about an increase in his power is fact. That is an opinion. He isn't confusing his Father's ki with Trunks due to size. It's due to feel, as what Herms translated. Ki size is NEVER mentioned so Goku having the same relative ki size to Trunks is as much an assumption as Goku being weaker. I really don't understand why you find it so hard to see that.

You are just making assumptions based on what isn't said.

Which reminds me of:

Gohan could be thinking "Wow! So this is what my fathers Ki is like when he has full power!"

Again I know I am making assumptions. But that is all we can do. You make it sound as if your opinion is fact and that it HAS to be your way.

Either he had 100% fighting against Freeza or he gained a small percentage of his full power. Both sides aren't contradicted. We can only make assumptions.

What's not said is never contradicted either. As I've said, every single rage boost has given the user much, much, more than a "little recovery" (and also much more than a full recovery). Not only that, but that "little recovery" was enough for Goku to dodge one of 100% Freezer's kienzans, which is impressive even considering Freezer's injuries and how tired he was at that point. We also see him without any sign of visible tiredness, so tell me, in what FACTS can the "he only regained a little fraction of his strength" theory be supported?

You are saying your assumption as if it is fact yet again. Can you provide me with an actual example of somebody with little to no Ki receiving all of their Ki back? Because so far you have yet to do that. The only example you gave me was Gohan when he thought against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and as I have already pointed out to you Gohan had recently had a Senzu bean so he was at 100% before the punch in the stomach and headbutt. Are you saying that the punch in the stomach and the headbutt reduced Gohan's 100% all the way down to where Goku's ki was before he transformed? Can you give me definitive evidence?

And Goku needs to regain everything to dodge a Kienzan? Why? Can he not have only regained enough to be above Freeza? I don't see why Goku only regaining a fraction of strength means he can't dodge a Kienzan. Can you please elaborate on why you believe he can't? A lot of athletes can still do a lot in a poor condition. Goku only needs to recover to a point where he can move a decent amount and the SSJ boost will make up for any shortcomings as he would still be above Freeza.

25% Goku + SSJ is still going to move 12.5 x better than 100% Goku without SSJ.

Are you talking about the scene where Goku turns around and the Kienzan brushes past his face? You realise Goku didn't dodge that, right? All Goku did was turn around. Freeza just missed. Possibly because, as Goku said, his Ki was now diminishing fast his Ki control would be becoming shaky too.

Yes, the manga contradicts that idea. What the manga doesn't contradict is whether Goku only received a small portion of his base power back or 100% of his power.

Why is that exactly, may I ask? I mean, the manga contradicts Pilaf being a super strong warrior because it's never implied. In the same way, every single rage boost fuelled the user beyond their previous limit, the SSJ is precisely described as the form that a sayan has when surpasses the it's potential limits, and Goku became a SSJ.

You don't make sense here. We see enough demonstrations of him being weak. I think I recall I've seen him hurt himself in one of the chapters after something doesn't go his way because he punched a hard object and hurts his hand. Rage boosts have pushed the user beyond their previous limit when they have had a healthy reserve of Ki. You have yet to show me an example like Goku's who was so weak he couldn't do anything gain back all of their Ki. When you give me an actual example then I may be able to see where you are coming from. But from this point it is all speculation.

Furthermore, he turned back at his base state and he accomplished some feats he probably would've been able to accomplish before, and no signs of him being tired or below his maximum potential are shown.

Because physical stamina has a bearing on that? Goku can get his physical stamina back without 100% Ki. If I were to go on a hike all day and I only had 25% of my energy left as I spent the rest of it would I look like I'm exhausted? You could probably tell if I exerted myself as I would get tired quicker having only a fraction of the energy. But you wouldn't notice if I was walking around or carrying about my daily business. Just because Goku looks okay doesn't mean he is at 100%. In a few panels during his fight with 100% Freeza, SSJ Goku is huffing an puffing from exhaustion in a few panels too. Does that mean Goku lost all of his energy and then rage boosted back to 100% again?

So why is that the manga implies Pilaf not being a super strong warrior, but then it doesn't imply a full recovery for Goku?

Because the manga ACTUALLY states and implies Pilaf is not a super strong warrior through literal feats and gags like him hurting himself? But it is never implied that a full recovery happened for Goku. It is left vague.

I can see that 100% Goku is entirely possible idea. But also is him only getting a small amount of strength back.

I've told you my reasons to think he was at his 100%. Now you should at least tell me what makes you think he wasn't, or at least, what makes you consider that possibility.

But your reason for why you consider him to be 100% is founded on the belief that all Rage boosts restore all of your Ki. When there has been no example like Goku's where he has no Ki. For all we know Rage boosts only restore a portion of your Ki. IT is impossible to prove that it restores all of your Ki no matter the how little you have. Because we have never had another example like this.

As I said above it is impossible to prove whether Goku only regained a part of his strength or all of it

No. All of it (in fact, more than what he ever had prior to the rage boost) is what's happened in the manga since the first rage boost. Why is that this is an exception to that rule?

Again, you say the rage boost restored all of his strength based on rage boosts of characters who have close to full Ki anyway. Goku is the exception because he has practically no Ki left. Gohan against Raditz? Gohan had full Ki. Gohan against Nappa? Still had a decent portion of Ki as he had previously kicked Nappa into a mountain before his rage boost. Gohan against Vegeta? Had a senzu bean previously and had only been hit twice by Vegeta so he still had a good portion of Ki. Gohan against Recoom? Had full power. Gohan against Freeza? Both times he still had full power. Now Goku against Freeza? Goku had nothing left in his tank.

We can both come up with valid reasons for one idea or the other.

Here's the problem. I still haven't read a single reason to justify he was weaker. You're saying that my reasons are somewhat valid but that there are other reasons that imply that Goku only regained a tiny fraction of his strength, well then, tell me those reasons.

I gave you plenty of reasons but you ignore them because you only care about your opinion it seems. I have validated your assumptions because like I said it is very vague about whether Goku regained all of his power or just a fraction. All we can do is go on our opinions. But you ignore and try to counter my opinion with assumptions of your own that you can't entirely prove. You keep saying that rage boosts restore ALL Ki but you have yet to give a single example. All of the rage boosts I have seen have always had the individual at full power or close to it. I have been willing to ignore this fact because I still take your opinion on board. I have not said your opinion is wrong. You are entitled to it. And I can also see the possibility of it. I am not dismissing it. But as I said, there is no clear evidence for rage boosts giving back all your Ki because this is the first, and only time, in which a character has practically no Ki has ever received a rage boost.

All we are doing is taking what is said in the manga and through our own perspectives trying to prove our points.

And what's said in the manga that proves that Goku didn't regain all his strength?
He performed feats that imply him reaching even higher levels than before, he wasn't exhausted nor anything that could imply him not being at his 100%, Gohan mistook Trunks (a healed SSJ) when he fought against Freezer (he was serious against Mecha Freezer, by the way) with Goku on Namek and never says anything about him being stronger. We have every single rage boost upgrading the fighter beyond what he could do before enraging. Everything points to a full recovery + increased power to me, and "Gohan could've thought that his father was much stronger than in Namek but we didn't see it" is not comparable to that list of solid facts to me.

Nothing proves or disproves Goku didn't regain all his strength. Apart from maybe the other rage boosts as they have never been like this case.

He performed these feats as a SSJ. Of course they are going to be even higher than his previous feats. A weakened SSJ Goku is going to outperform 100% Base Goku in any feat. Regardless of strength.

Gohan never says he is the same strength either. So this is open to interpretation. In fact, the dialogue deliberately avoids mentioning Ki size in any regard. Whether SSJ Trunks is stronger, weaker or the same level as SSJ Goku is never brought up. So why should we assume he is stronger, weaker or at the same level? You are the one who is saying he MUST be as strong as Trunks because it is never stated. It is as equal an argument as saying Goku was weaker because it wasn't stated. Regardless Trunks battle power isn't going to be exactly even with Goku's. Whether Goku was at 100% or not. So Gohan should have made a point to call out the battle powers strength in both scenarios but didn't leaving it open to interpretation. You can't just tell me my opinion is wrong because their strength was never compared. Because my opinion is also equally true.

I say he didn't comment on their ki difference because Goku only got a small portion of strength back on Namek and Gohan believes that what he was sensing now was SSJ Goku at full strength.

Yes, in the same way you say that Pilaf was weak, and I say that Pilaf was strong but hiding his power.

You keep using the Pilaf example as if it isn't proven in the manga when there are instances were he hurts himself through anger.

Gohan says he sense the SAME ki he sensed in Namek, and he says nothing about it being stronger. The problem here is that you take a sentence of the manga ("it's the same ki") and say "hey, it says it's the same and not the same amount, which means that it was of the same kind but dozens of times stronger", and you say that based on... nothing.

Because the Japanese manga clearly makes that distinction. It is much more clear than English. If Akira Toriyama was going to bring up the amount of Ki Gohan was sensing he would have. That is the whole reason Herms put it in the notes when he translated the line.

If Trunks was dozens of times stronger than Goku (the result of him only recovering a tiny amount of strength) then that would've been said. Things like that are not hidden from the readers, like Pilaf's SSJ3-like super-strength. It wasn't there, so it's false.

Why exactly would it have been said? We know Goku was heavily injured and fatigued on Namek. Did you not think Akira Toriyama would be aware of that and leave it out as we should know that Injured/Fatigue SSJ Goku won't be the same as 100% SSJ Goku?

For once, show me SOMETHING that was on the manga and that supports that theory.

I keep doing this and all you do is disregard everything I have to say. You can't even consider the notion that I have a valid opinion even though you don't have to agree. As I said, I have validated your opinion and I can see it can be possible. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it. The least you could do is validate mine as well. But instead you are trying to say your opinion is a fact. Like the whole "Rage boosts must recover all your Ki because it happens in every situation." when all of the situations it has happened in are situations where the individual as a good chunk of Ki or are at full power.

I'm sorry, but getting punched in the stomach and headbutt isn't going to reduce Gohan all of his ki down to near 0.

Krilin was reduced to 0 with a single hit in his face, and Gohan that was at Krilin's level or even lower wouldn't be the same you say?

When was Kuririn reduced to 0? Are you talking about the kick Vegeta did that send Kuririn flying and bouncing along a rock formation? I'm pretty sure that kick was much more than what Gohan experienced. And Kuririn got up after that and easily scaled a rock formation by jumping with the Genki Dama in his palm. So if Kuririn is at 0 how could he do that?

So for now we have:
SSJ transformations that work like senzu beans. Of course, that's never seen in the manga again, it was a once in a lifetime situation.
Rage boosts that only regain a bit of strength, and again, it's only seen there in the manga and without any explanation, it's just there.
And now we have that Gohan can't lose ki with two hits, when everyone else can. Of course, that's also for this concrete case.

More than reasons, this sounds like excuses to me.

Again, saying Rage Boosts regain all strength when that is never seen.
And you say Gohan loses all of his Ki yet Goku tells Gohan to go fight Vegeta because Vegeta has been weakened. Would Goku be requesting his son fight Vegeta with 0 Ki? It is essentially suicide.
Gohan tells Goku that he doesn't want to because Vegeta is too strong, not because; As you believe, Gohan has 0 ki. Why does Gohan not say he has no Ki left to fight? Why does he blame his reluctance of fighting Vegeta on Vegeta being too strong? You are making the assumption Gohan has no Ki when it isn't stated.

That really doesn't sound like Gohan has no Ki.

If he had broken his neck, then yes.

Gohan's ki wasn't at exactly 0 (death). He was just really exhausted by the beating, in the same sense Goku was at that point also exhausted and he had his neck in place. Please, start to give reasons instead of putting excuses. Thanks.

I'm giving an example as to when a sufficient 1 hit attack would be deadly enough to reduce a character to minimal Ki. It isn't an excuse. And I would appreciate it if you keep the malicious comments to a minimum.

Gohan may be on the floor but it is only due to pain. Children aren't accustomed to being smashed about.

And why was Krilin also on the floor? Was he some kind of kid or anything like that? I'm starting to think that we're not debating. You'll just be unable to admit that you may have been wrong, because man, between the senju-bean SSJ transformations, the partial rage boosts and now Gohan lying on the floor undamaged but with "pain" due to the age while Krilin (an adult and an experienced fighter) was dispatched with a single kick...

Kuririn got hit much harder than Gohan. Vegeta was toying with Gohan and trying to egg him on into attacking him before Kuririn attacked. If you think a gut punch and a headbutt are in any way worse than that kick Kuririn suffered where it sent him flying and bouncing off of rock formations then I think you should re-evaluate the fight scene. And Kuririn also demonstrated he could move more than humanly possible once he got the Genki Dama. So if Kuririn could do that after that kick I don't see how Gohan's Ki would have been depleted so low.

Do you have proof Gohan couldn't stand up?

Did he stand up? No, he didn't, and considering that he was in front of Vegeta, if he could stand up he would've done it. I don't know of anyone that stays lying on the floor while someone that tries to kill him approaches, if he can move.
Gohan only moves when he gets the rage boost, and he even says to Goku (chapter 236 page 9) "I... I can't even move..." that's the fact here.

Gohan isn't standing up because he is afraid of Vegeta who he states is too strong. And I don't know where you are getting your translation from but chapter 236 page 9 Gohan says "I... I Can't... Daddy... It... It hurts too much..." The next panel Goku calls him a coward. Gohan never says he can't even move anymore. You can even check the pages before.

Chapter: 236 (DBZ 42), P7.5, P8.1-4
Goku: “Gohan…dad’s body is messed up. I can’t move anymore. You have to fight for me instead. His power should have fallen a whole lot.”
Gohan: “He’s strong. He’s too strong. I…I can’t win.”
Goku: “You…You don’t have to win. Just hold him off. Your power ought to be even more incredible than this…even more.”

Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P5.2, P8.4
Gohan: “He’s so strong! Even though he should be tired out from fighting with dad.”
Vegeta: “I suppose it’s too late to tell you that no matter how many pieces of garbage join together, they still won’t be any match for a member of the elite.

Goku even claims Gohan still has power which is enough to hold him off.

So again, we have a weakened Gohan that says that he is unable to move, we have Krilin who has been left in the floor with a single kick (also unable to move) and you come here saying there was no proof that Gohan "wasn't lying" to us the readers and that he could move because he was close to his full strength, but he just didn't want to move.

Again, your translation must be off because Gohan never says he can't move anymore. Kuririn, after suffering even more damaging attack than Gohan. Was up shortly after Gohan started to fight with Vegeta and displayed the rock formation scaling feat which would require some Ki.

Again, you are discussing basing your reasons in suppositions that in the best case are never suggested, and in the worst cases they're directly contradicted but that's fine because there will always be an excuse to justify them (for example, the same meaning much bigger or Gohan straight up lying when he said that he couldn't move after receiving Vegeta's attack). And yes, I can't proof that Gohan wasn't lying (lying in the sense of not telling the truth, not in the sense of lying in the ground which clearly was the case) nor that when he said "the same" he really meant "the same kind but dozens of times bigger". I can't prove that, but the burden of proof is clearly on you, so while you don't give me a solid reason to think that Gohan is a liar then it's Pilaf at SSJ3 level or me not answering to those excuses any more.

There is no need to prove Gohan was lying because that isn't what was said. Really, what translation are you using for the line about Gohan not being able to move? Because as I said. It is is wrong, he just says it hurts too much. Never that he can't move.

Goku said for Gohan to go fight Vegeta because Vegeta had been weakened. Do you really think Goku would be saying that if Gohan couldn't fight?

And wasn't in fact Goku very aware of Gohan's rage boosts?

Why does that matter exactly? Without any way of triggering the rage boost how is Gohan meant to fight? Goku was lucky Gohan did get enraged. But Goku telling Vegeta to fight without a rage boost was very evident.

[freezamite]

What? Since when is a "rage boost" inherent to only those with good wills, and furthermore, since when do characters have legitimate rage boosts other than Gohan (Vegeta's BoG situation being the one real exception)?

Since "rage boosts" are normally triggered by pure feelings. It's not that they are exclusive to anyone with a good will, because Vegeta had one being really bad, but for a bad person to have a rage boost it's nearly impossible. Vegeta would've never been a SSJ if Goku and Trunks weren't there with their SSJ forms, and Goku didn't humiliate him forgiving his life when he was a prince and Goku just an inferior being.

And are you saying Goku didn't had a legitimate rage boost? Wow, then tell me what was that I saw in chapter 317.

Except that he acknowledges that it was established as being 50x.

Yes, of course it was established. But it was established by the guides and other media. What's totally false is that he went with that x50 in the manga. The manga was drawn as Goku SSJ being 10x what he had been until then (that doesn't even mean that the SSJ was a 10x boost) and x50 is absolutely impossible no matter how anyone look at it. Yes, you can come with "little recovery rage boosts" or even to the extreme of saying that there wasn't a rage boost at all (even when Goku screamed non-stop that he was enraged), but x50? x50 to what? x50 to a Goku that couldn't even stand up by himself? Would that be even king Piccolo level of strength? Freezer was injured, but he was still strong enough to kill piccolo who despite losing some strength with the Genkidama explosion, was still pretty much undamaged.

To me, it's like he's suggesting that he drew Goku's physical appearance as a Super Saiya-jin with the muscle mass and everything if he were only 10x stronger than his base

Just stop, seriously. The only change was in his hair, and in DB power/ki aren't proportional to muscle mass. Toriyama drew the manga with that increase in strength on mind.

because if he drew it to convey the 50x it would look far too exaggerated (like Ssj 3rd Grade size or worse).

Yes, we all know that Goku multiplied its muscular mass by 11 in his journey from the earth to Namek, and then he multiplied it at least by x3 before he fought Freezer. Of course, he also multiplied it's muscular mass by 8 when training with kaito.

So 8 x 3 x 11 = 264. According to you, Goku had 264 times more muscular mass when he started to fight Freezer than when he fought Raditz. But it doesn't end here, because Goku fought against Freezer with kaioh Ken x20, so of course he had at that point Goku had 5280 times the muscular mass he had when fighting against Raditz

There's no way that it could be a simple 10x increase, because we see that Kaiou-ken 10x wasn't anywhere close to 50% Freeza

Going back to that again? Freezer pre-Genkidama was of course much stronger than Freezer post-Genkidama. It's what happens in DB when you're nearly killed by a technique.

and even if his power recovered all the way following his transformation (there's absolutely nothing saying or suggesting that Goku's base increased from his rage) and taking Freeza's damage from the Genki Dama into account, 10x wouldn't cover the considerable gap that would exist between the two, especially after Freeza went to full power.

And why wouldn't cover the "considerable gap"? I mean, while I'm giving concrete feats, pages and chapters, you only put one excuse after another. Vegeta at 18.000 had a power gap over a badly injured Krilin dozens of time bigger than the power gap that could ever be between 10x Goku and an injured Freezer, and there he was in a position where he could've killed Vegeta without Vegeta being able to defend. And why? Because injures weaken the one that's injured, and the more injured the more weakened.

We've seen dozens of characters loosing much more strength due to the injuries than what Freezer lost according to me, but yet you say this was impossible. Of course you'll never provide any single page nor chapter to support that, because like that last page of discussions, that has turned into a "any excuse will do until I can think of another one".

Super Saiya-jin needed to be well over 20x Goku's base to be able to casually beat around 50% Freeza

Yeah, Krilin had to be well over 10.000 units to be able to kill Vegeta.[/irony]

and in turn would need to be over 40x to be able to fight and surpass 100% Freeza, which is why 50x works just fine when looking at the manga.

That has to be the fight with more broken rules I've ever seen, and Toriyama one of the worst writters in the world.
So it suddenly happens that injuries doesn't affect the power of the one being injured when during the whole series that's what has always happened. It also happens that a power gap of 20% in favour of a character didn't determine the outcome of the fight, when much smaller power gaps had been enough until then. Of course Goku didn't recover his energy (well, in fact you now speak as if he did, so in the beginning of your message you didn't think that Goku could recover all of his strength, but now he suddenly recovered all of it because that's how the x50 is calculated, x50 over what Goku had before being injured).
Look, you've reached a point where your own excused contradict themselves, and you still have to provide a single page of the manga to support your stance.

Wouldn't "10x what he'd been up til that point" be 10x the Kaioken x20...aka, a 200x increase?

KK was a technique, not Goku's own power. 200x increase would put him at 5 times the strength of 100% Freezer... yes, surely that was the gap between 100% Freezer and SSJ Goku. May I ask if you've ever read the manga? Serious question.

How exactly am I spreading false information?

Well, to say that Toriyama went with x50 even if it was too much for his tastes, when he clearly said that he drew the manga with 10x on mind... in fact, how could Toriyama go against "his will" in that x50 power up, if nobody could come with it before he drew the SSJ for the first time. Toriyama was the author of the manga, and he drew Goku SSJ as if he was 10x what he had been up until then. The x50 thing was published months or even years after he had drawn those scenes, and it even didn't take into account the injuries or power ups the fighters had during the fight.

It was a poor analysis of the manga that even Toriyama himself contradicted in an interview no matter how many times you try to spin what he said. He drew the manga with 10x on mind, that's a literal quote of what he said and it's pretty clear in the manga this is how it went.

I mean because it was his first transformation. It restored his power because it was his first time.

And I suppose that you have at least one page of the manga where it's said that the first time you transform you regain your strength, but not the following ones. Right?

But it's not just anger, as stated in the manga. According to the manga, another requirement is having a tranquil heart, which Vegeta didn't have up until Freeza arc according to Freeza, and there is also the requirement of having high battle power.

When did Freezer say that Vegeta had a tranquil heart? And more than tranquil, what's said is "pure" if my version of the manga is accurate in that regard...

Could you show me the statement?

Of course:
Chapter 319, at around page 10 (it could be page 11 or 9 as well):
Freezer: Who are you?
Goku: You already know it, don't you? I'm a sayan that has come from the earth to defeat you. The legendary warrior that, despite having a peaceful heart, has had it's violence awoken by a fit of rage.

In the next page, Freezer even adds:
Freezer: So even when having a peaceful heart, a fit of rage awoke your rage... now I understand why Vegeta, as much as he tried, could never achieve that.

What we, the fans, call "rage boost" is the ability to get stronger through anger but without transforming.

And Goku clearly got stronger without transforming. The proof is even on the drawing. How Goku had a semi-closed eye until Krilin is killed, and then he not only looses that but also has no problem to stand up. He enraged, he had a power up, and then because of that he transformed.

In the manga, the only one that ever did this was Gohan, and he did this multiple times. Goku & Vegeta never did that in the manga.

Goku clearly did it against Freezer, and Vegeta had to do it in order to achieve the SSJ form. The "it was the first time argument"... can you support it with a direct quote of the manga?
Because Goku explains pretty well how he reached the SSJ. The difference between Gohan and Goku is that Gohan has a much more peaceful heart than Goku, and the same happens between Goku and Vegeta.

You say this but, as I said, the narrator is the one telling us that Goku had surpassed the Saiyan limits. And that was considered the necessary requirement. There is really no need to mince the words of the narrator of the manga.

Come on. I mean, mincing the words of Toriyama is saying that he meant that "he drew Goku's muscles as if it had a 10x power up". I'm just explaining you that "limit" doesn't mean "the utmost limit", but that there're also other kinds of limits. Considering that Vegeta was the Sayan that with his strength impressed Freezer enough to destroy planet Vegeta (he was unusually strong for the sayan standards) and he had less than 18.000 units back then, yes, Goku at 90.000 surpassed the "Sayan limits".

It's a logical assumption but just because it isn't there doesn't mean it isn't true.

Like my Pilaf SSJ3 theory. Just because it isn't there doesn't mean it isn't true, right? No, we are READING, not trying to guess what real persons think or do. When reading, if it's not there it isn't true.

It is never said that Goku's power was at 100% when he first went SSJ.

Yeah, but it's said that he had a rage boost and rage boosts have never been only "small boosts". Was Cell stronger than Tao Pai Pai? Because it's never said in the manga...

You are just assuming that. You can say we've had dozens of rage boosts in the series but you can't say they never resulted in "a little recovery" because there has never been such an example. The only real rage boosts we are aware of are Gohan's and he has never been in a state where had no power and recovered it all.

No, he was just taking a nap when Vegeta kicked his ass. Let's pretend that scene never happened...

You tried to accuse Gohan of having no ki during the Vegeta battle just because he got punched in the stomach and then headbutt.

No, I accused Gohan of having no ki because he wasn't able to stand up by himself after being punched in the stomach and then headbutt. I know that putting words that he never said on someone is one of the specialities of some users of that forum, but at least try to not doing that to me.

Even if he took two hits they weren't serious damage. Vegeta was toying with him and egging him on to fight. He had in no way lost all of his ki from those two blows.

Of course you know more about that than what's written on the manga. I mean "who" is the manga to contradict you at this point, right? Krilin also didn't take any serious damage, he just took one hit, half the quantity in comparison to Gohan. He also fell asleep.

Gohan has ALWAYS still had a good portion of ki when he has had rage boosts.

Yeah, he was taking a nap in the fight against Vegeta as I've said before. When Goku asked Gohan to stand up, he clearly answered "no, I'm still sleepy so I won't get up, but I still have a lot of strength".

You have no proof every rage boost give back all your ki. There are no examples of it doing so.

What amuses me is that precisely the ones that are turning the fight between Goku and Freezer into the fight of the coincidences (injuries coincidently didn't affect the fighter's power on that fight, rage boosts coincidently didn't recover Goku's energy -although in your defence it has to be said that this isn't a coincidence if we consider your theory of Gohan taking a nap during his fight against Vegeta- even when he coincidently was able to dodge one of 100% Freezer's attacks and he coincidently was the first character of the whole series to be really tired and with only a fraction of his power without a visible sign of him being tired) and now you're using the "there are no examples" to invalidate what I'm saying? LOL

Trunks was trying a lot harder than Goku. The fact that Goku restricted himself to blocking it with just a finger is enough of a feat to say that Goku > Trunks.

Trunks wasn't using all his power to attack. Since this is a clearly stated fact, it doesn't matter if Goku stopped him with a finger. That only proves that Goku was using more strength than Trunks at that moment.

Why would Goku go SSJ and suppress his ki? If the world was in danger then there would be no reason.

Yes, we've never seen Goku supressing his ki in front of weaker enemies. Well, except for when he fought against Reecoome, Burter and Jeece, or when he fought against Yakon, or even when he fought against SSJ2 Vegeta and Bu was being awoken. He has never done anything like that, right?

Current Ki: 75% + Rage Boost: 50% is not the same as Current Ki: 1% + Rage Boost: 50%. Is it?

Hahahahah I love that. So you pull that a rage boost is a 50% increase from your ass, and now that's a proof that I'm wrong. Gohan went from 1 to 1200 against Raditz, he went past 1 million against Freezer when he was clearly much lower than 530.000 before and... well, considering how many excuses (I'll consider what you say as arguments or reasons when I see it justified with manga facts).

Gohan confuses the feel of the ki, not the size of it.

Yes, that's right. He didn't confuse the size of the ki because it was the same size than Goku in Namek. He confused the feel because it was pretty close to the one Goku had, even when we know it wasn't exactly equal. There's no reason why he should have confused the size, and considering that he said that Trunks had the same ki than Goku, there's no reason to think that the size was different.

But you are assuming that just because he doesn't say anything about an increase in his power is fact. That is an opinion. He isn't confusing his Father's ki with Trunks due to size. It's due to feel, as what Herms translated. Ki size is NEVER mentioned so Goku having the same relative ki size to Trunks is as much an assumption as Goku being weaker. I really don't understand why you find it so hard to see that.

What I find really hard to understand is how many different excuses I've seen in order to not recognise that what's not written nor implied is not there. Ki is mentioned as a whole, and that also include size. It's obvious that size alone wouldn't confuse Gohan, so that's why he doesn't specifically speak about "size". Is that too hard to understand?

Again I know I am making assumptions. But that is all we can do.

Well, I would recommend you to at least read the manga before making the assumptions. There's a "tiny" difference in making assumptions based on direct statements of the manga, and your assumptions based on what a certain character could've been thinking even if it wasn't written. I mean, are you aware that there is a special kind of bubbles to represent that a character is thinking instead of speaking? If Toriyama wanted Gohan to think something, he would've used one of those.
Well, there's also the possibility that he forgot to use them, he had to be pretty stressed thinking how many muscle mass he had to draw for his next power up

You are saying your assumption as if it is fact yet again

No, what I'm saying is that my assumptions are based on facts, which is not the case of your excuses. I'm still waiting for a single quote of the manga to support your stance.

Considering the amount of contradictory excuses I've read it would be enough for me to stop at that point... if it wasn't for that:

Because physical stamina has a bearing on that? Goku can get his physical stamina back without 100% Ki.

This is glorious. Of course, no one will find a single case of someone regaining all his stamina without regaining all his ki at the same time, but of course as a real DB fan you won't allow the manga to interfere with what really happened on DB. Glorious.

[Kaboom]

This conversation is already difficult and tedious enough to follow with all the long posts and back-and-forth quoting, but it's even worse when posts start getting reported. Let's tone down the condescending and "amused" attitude(s) and try to keep things friendly and shonen, please.

[Rocketman]

I was talking about the form of Super Saiyan. Kaio-O-Ken is a technique, not a transformation. It does not exist in the manga a fixed multiplier for the Super Saiyan number. I could come here and I come up and say it's 21 or 25, who cares.

You'd be wrong, since x40 would be equal to 100% Freeza. Since SS Goku was superior to Freeza it absolutely bare minimum has to be above 40x.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

"Goku was shown to not be able to do any appreciable damage to 50% Full Power Freeza while utilizing the 20x Kaiou-ken, and was easily getting beat around when only using the 10x. Since he was essentially fresh when using the 10x early on, nothing is said or suggested that his base battle power increased as a result of transforming into a Super Saiya-jin, and that while Freeza took some damage from the Genki Dama, it wasn't some insane "cut in half" decrease, that would indicate that Super Saiya-jin would need to be well above 20x to be able to effortlessly beat around 50% Full Power Freeza, and well over twice that strong to be able to fight so well against 100% Full Power Freeza (i.e. well over 40x his base form). Thus the 50x works in the context of the manga."


You do not get it, my biggest problem is with the transformation of SSJ 3 and SSJ 2 with the multipliers given by SEG (2008).
Second, Frieza was "playing" with Goku most of the time - there was playground, Frieza even smiled when attacked by Piccolo, Gohan and Kurin. Frieza was not taking the fight seriously in no time, he just started really angry when he would blow up Namek with the Death Ball, at that moment, Frieza was serious about. Until that moment Frieza was not really take any of them seriously so.

Frieza took a deadly blow from the Genki-dama, then the transformation of manga in this context, could never be greater than forties times the power of the base. Fireza until says "even weak, I can still kill you all". If the Genki-dama was not as effective against Frieza, you think Piccolo would have survived the Death Ray from Frieza.


"Gohan admits to himself though that if he doesn't start picking up the pace, he'll get surpassed by Goten and Trunks.

[quote]Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.3-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

And it shows that brats are still a bit away from Gohan. Gohan and Vegeta were caught by surprise by the transformation of Super Saiyan from the brats.

"As mentioned before, the 50x works in the context of the manga, and the whole "10x" thing has its basis on the design of Goku's muscles, not necessarily his actual strength. As for Gotenks' abilities, no one is actually using what Trunks/Goten say about Gotenks' strength, but instead Goku and the others. Goku, having seen how powerful the boys are, and having seen the power of the fusion dance, establishes that Gotenks would be able to do what he (Goku) as a Super Saiya-jin 3 stated he couldn't. Since Gotenks is only capable of Super Saiya-jin at this time (he advocated against the boys using the Room of Spirit and Time seeing it as unnecessary to defeat Fat Buu), that would mean that Goku established that Ssj Gotenks, prior to the boys training in the Room of Spirit and Time, would be stronger than he was as a Super Saiya-jin 3.
In turn, nothing is ever said that Ssj Gotenks lacked that power when the boys did eventually form him, and later, when the boys formed into base Gotenks after their training, Piccolo even suggested that they may be strong enough in their base form to do what Ssj Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) wouldn't be able to do. This base Gotenks (post RoSaT) potentially being stronger than Ssj3 Goku, or at the very least absolutely stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, which is again suggested in the Daizenshuu."

Why you give me this information, I accepted that Gotenks is stronger than Goku, who cares, it was not beacuse of this I opened the topic.
The all transformation be 50 times the power base is contradictory. And the numbers of the Daizenshuu, with a percentage of 20 in favor, Goku could destroy Frieza would have half a dozen punches and kicks. Seen earlier fights against Cui, Dodoria among others.

"The first one and third reasons are irrelevant. Even if you don't agree with them, the SEG and the Daizenshuu are still official databooks, endorsed and supported by Toriyama. If I recall, Toriyama's actual opinion on the Daizenshuu was that he wished they had existed when he was writing the manga, so he could use them for reference. If the original creator wished he had them, then that tends to greatly support how reliable and accurate the info in them is.
The second one, again, I've pointed out why it doesn't work. You and a few others feel that just because an established gap in power in two instances, both of which involved fighters with no combat experience whatsoever who relied solely on just brute strength and their overwhelming power over their opponents to win, that the gap would have to remain the same throughout the series to explain strength differences. A simple way of proving that the gap is irrelevant is to compare Goku using the Kaiou-ken against Vegeta. While Vegeta did have the strength and speed advantage with a gap of 11% between the two, Goku was still holding his own and not getting easily overwhelmed the same as Kui or Dodoria were."
However, right off the bat, during the Saiya-jin Saga we have Goku and Piccolo fighting and surviving (for the most part) against Raditz, who is at least 3x as strong as they are. By your assumptions, Goku and Piccolo should have died instantly the moment Raditz attacked them, but their strength and endurance helped to counter that. Then, during the Freeza Saga, Goku was managing to survive blows from Freeza, while the latter was well over 20x as powerful as he was, again due to his endurance. Insane gaps in strength are nothing new to the franchise, so a relatively minor one like 8x is hardly out of the question."

Yes, they are the official guides, as the films - later Toriymana (himself) tells us we do not take into account the films with the manga, because, guess what, the movies are full of errors and mistakes . And look, there's surprise, (in Daizenshuu) we have biography of characters from movies and other things.
If Toriyama had seen the Daizenshuu and SEG, Toriyama certainly would not give green light to pass those multipliers or numbers. In the case of the Daizenshuu, he probably just write the monologue and then received the money and nothing more for using his own characters.
And Raditz was playing with them. He only started getting scared when Piccolo and Goku started to use special attacks (Kamehameha-like), until that moment, it was playground for Raditz. You can not compare the two situations.

"He was saying that the fact that Kaiou-ken 20x was at/below Freeza's 50% full power is proof enough that Super Saiya-jin is 50x, as it would take something at least twice as strong as Kaiou-ken 20x to be able to match Freeza's full, 100% power, thus at least a 40x battle power increase."

Frieza was brutally wounded by Genki-dama, it was not necessary to have a boost of 50X, Toriyama himself designed the fight in the manga with an increase of 10X, 50X it would be too absurd. You do not you take into consideration the injured fighters (Frieza in this case), and you think that Frieza could reach 120 mil, all fresh as the fight begans. You are making a grave error of reasoning. Frieza never could reach 120 000 with all those injuries from Genki-Dama attack and the fight against Goku. Or You think Yajirobe when faced Vegeta, Yajirobe had a battle power of 17,000, because he given more fight and damage to Vegeta that Goku with Kaio-O-Ken 2.


"And I never mentioned the x50 multiplier. But Goku could only rival 50% Freeza with a Kaio-ken x20, meaning that he would have to get a x40 boost to rival 100% Freeza. However, SS Goku was stronger than 100% Freeza, meaning that the SS boost is over x40. "

Frieza received great damage from fighting Goku and especially from Genki-dama, Frieza Ki decreases a lot, it quite impossible to get it 120KK, then this makes impossible for Goku having a 50X boost power base.


"Gohan was doing serious training, there is no reason to hold back in training. And Vegeta wouldn't have been forced to punch Trunks and stop him if he was just holding back."

Gohan and Vegeta were caught by surprise by the transformation of brats. Still Gohan (the weakest of the 3 adult saiyans) admits that Trunks and Goten are still beneath him:

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.3-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”


It says : he will be outstripped. He is not saying I am outstripped.Big difference here, sir.

"I'm aware, but why would he get cocky if this isn't the greatest power he had ever reached? And there isn't only that, there is also the fact that Piccolo couldn't stop him from running away, meaning that base Gotenks is stronger than Piccolo. Plus, Toriyama said that he wanted to make something stronger than Super Saiyan, so he came up with Fusion:"


I never said that Gotenks is weaker than Goku, I only say that the multipliers given by Daizenshuu and SEG are contradictory against the manga.

"Toriyama approved these books."


Of course, as he approves the movies that contradicted the manga in all aspects (irony mode on).I doubt if he had seen the section of the power levels he let it pass. He did some drawings and the monologue to Daizenshuu and okay, he received his money by using his characters. That is all. Actually, there is some evidence that Toriyama publicly recognizes the multipliers from SEG...or something from his mouth about the multipliers from SEG?

"But how do the SEG multipliers contradict the manga?"

I've posted in previous pages my opinion about SEG multipliers. Basically a difference of more than 800% between the same two characters in the same period of time, considering the percentages in previous sagas (from 10% to 35% is a instant victory) is too ridiculous and too high seriously to be taken, unless you take and you accept the information (power levels and multipliers) that appears in Daizenshuu and SEG. I do not consider any percentage or battle power from these books.

You'd be wrong, since x40 would be equal to 100% Freeza. Since SS Goku was superior to Freeza it absolutely bare minimum has to be above 40x.

Sure, if you take the numbers and multipliers from Daizenshuu and SEG seriously. Frieza to have 120 million Ki, he would have transformed, in the beginning of the battle (all fresh) and this is not what happened. He took immense damage from Goku and especially from the Genki-Dama (almost a fatal blow). Daizenshuu
and SEG do not take the damage (more damage = less ki = less strong) into account. By Daizenshuu logic, Yajirobe is tronger that Goku Kaio-O-Ken 2, because, Yajirobe put a better fight and he did more damage to Vegeta that Goku with the Kaio-O-Ken 2. Yajirobe would have a battle power of 17,000, because he given more figh to Vegeta that Goku with Kaio-O-Ken 2.

[Hitiro]

You say this but, as I said, the narrator is the one telling us that Goku had surpassed the Saiyan limits. And that was considered the necessary requirement. There is really no need to mince the words of the narrator of the manga.

Come on. I mean, mincing the words of Toriyama is saying that he meant that "he drew Goku's muscles as if it had a 10x power up". I'm just explaining you that "limit" doesn't mean "the utmost limit", but that there're also other kinds of limits. Considering that Vegeta was the Sayan that with his strength impressed Freezer enough to destroy planet Vegeta (he was unusually strong for the sayan standards) and he had less than 18.000 units back then, yes, Goku at 90.000 surpassed the "Sayan limits".

When was it ever stated that Freeza was impressed with Vegeta's strength and it was reason enough to destroy Planet Vegeta? I thought it was only ever implied that he destroyed Planet Vegeta because he was afraid a Saiyan, in general, would get strong enough to fight with him.

It's a logical assumption but just because it isn't there doesn't mean it isn't true.

Like my Pilaf SSJ3 theory. Just because it isn't there doesn't mean it isn't true, right? No, we are READING, not trying to guess what real persons think or do. When reading, if it's not there it isn't true.

I'm sorry but are you only reading what you want to? Because I already stated that there are scenes where Pilaf hurts himself. I really don't see why you keep using this "theory" when it is more than implied he is weak. It is pretty much stated through the manga that he can't do anything. So if it isn't there, it isn't true? Then if Goku gaining 100% of his ki back when turning SSJ isn't there then it isn't true? As I said. There is as much evidence for Goku only gaining a portion of his Ki than there is all of it.

It is never said that Goku's power was at 100% when he first went SSJ.

Yeah, but it's said that he had a rage boost and rage boosts have never been only "small boosts". Was Cell stronger than Tao Pai Pai? Because it's never said in the manga...

The manga never actually states Goku received a rage boost though. I have been going along with you entertaining the idea that he had a rage boost for the sake of simplicity. If we want to argue whether he had a rage boost or not we can if you want. There are plenty of scenes through the manga where Saiyan's other than Gohan have gotten angry but haven't recieved rage boosts. Why would this one be any different?

You are just assuming that. You can say we've had dozens of rage boosts in the series but you can't say they never resulted in "a little recovery" because there has never been such an example. The only real rage boosts we are aware of are Gohan's and he has never been in a state where had no power and recovered it all.

No, he was just taking a nap when Vegeta kicked his ass. Let's pretend that scene never happened...

Let's pretend you were correct about Gohan having no Ki. Which isn't true because the evidence you provided to me was incorrect, Gohan never said he couldn't move. He said he couldn't because it hurt. Which you have yet to clarify on. You just ignored my correction of the evidence you provided because you couldn't admit that you were wrong or that your assumption was baseless.

Back to the point. Assuming you were correct about Gohan having no Ki. Are there any other examples you can provide to back up Gohan gaining a rage boost with no Ki other than this one? As I said in my previous post, all of the rage boosts he has had have been from when he was at full power. Excluding the Vegeta fight because you can't seem to agree that he could still move.

You tried to accuse Gohan of having no ki during the Vegeta battle just because he got punched in the stomach and then headbutt.

No, I accused Gohan of having no ki because he wasn't able to stand up by himself after being punched in the stomach and then headbutt. I know that putting words that he never said on someone is one of the specialities of some users of that forum, but at least try to not doing that to me.

How is that not the same thing exactly? The direct result of him "not being able to move" was because of the punch to the stomach and the headbutt, correct? I'm not putting words into your mouth. The "evidence" you are trying to provide to me was that Gohan couldn't move so he must of had no Ki. I never quarrelled that. But the cause of which was the punch to the stomach and a headbutt. You try to say that I'm trying to put words into your mouth but it seems as though you are intentionally avoiding things in my posts because you don't know how to work them around to you being correct. Sorry if that isn't the case, but that is what it seems like to me. I'll provide a few examples.

1. You said Gohan said he couldn't move. I provided you with the line from the Viz translation which says nothing of the sort. I'm happy if it is the actual Japanese translation but I doubt it because otherwise what Goku says after Gohan said he couldn't get up because it hurt too much doesn't make sense. Why would Goku tell Gohan off if Gohan couldn't legitimately move his body? A few pages before Gohan was also saying he didn't want to fight Vegeta because Vegeta was too strong and I also gave you the Japanese lines straight from the Strength Checker herms provides. If Gohan really couldn't fight then why would he be complaining about Vegeta being too strong? Goku even states that Gohan should have enough energy to hold off Vegeta, but not to win.

2. I provided you with all of the examples of Gohan getting rage boosts and ignoring the one against Vegeta, because we can't seem to agree on it, all the other examples have Gohan with a good portion of his Ki or he is at full power. So where does your assumption that every rage boost give the user their full Ki back come from when the only real example in question is the Gohan vs Vegeta one? If you can prove to me that some of the others had Gohan at little to no Ki then I'll commend you. But other than the fight in question there is no other possible example.

3. I already pointed out that Kuririn had received a much more damaging blow than Gohan's punch to the stomach and a headbutt. Kuririn was literally kicked flying and bounced off of several rock formations. You are assuming that Gohan took more damage because he has had one more blow than Kuririn. But the quality of an attack out-weighs the number of attacks and the quality of the attack on Kuririn clearly out-weighs Gohan's. So why is it Kuririn can move fine and Gohan can't when Kuririn had a received a much more brutal attack?

This stuff is what I said in the last post but it seems you just completely ignored them. I don't know why but it seems to me that you have no way to prove me wrong so just ignored them. If you think I am on the money I would at least like some positive feedback from you rather than you just ignoring it.

Even if he took two hits they weren't serious damage. Vegeta was toying with him and egging him on to fight. He had in no way lost all of his ki from those two blows.

Of course you know more about that than what's written on the manga. I mean "who" is the manga to contradict you at this point, right? Krilin also didn't take any serious damage, he just took one hit, half the quantity in comparison to Gohan. He also fell asleep.

You are also doing the same though. You are making the assumption that the brutal kick Kuririn suffered must not be serious damage because it is one blow less than Gohan's. So I guess the damage that Tienshinhan suffered from the single blow from Nappa which tore Tienshinhan's arm off is less damage than Gohan's two hits? You can clearly see that the kick Kuririn received from Vegeta was much worse than the two hits Gohan received. Ask anybody on this forum I can guarantee you that the majority will confirm it.

Gohan has ALWAYS still had a good portion of ki when he has had rage boosts.

Yeah, he was taking a nap in the fight against Vegeta as I've said before. When Goku asked Gohan to stand up, he clearly answered "no, I'm still sleepy so I won't get up, but I still have a lot of strength".

Again you are ignoring all of the other examples I provided. And when Goku asked Gohan to stand up and fight he said he didn't want to because Vegeta is too strong. I don't see why he would say that unless it was true.

You have no proof every rage boost give back all your ki. There are no examples of it doing so.

What amuses me is that precisely the ones that are turning the fight between Goku and Freezer into the fight of the coincidences (injuries coincidently didn't affect the fighter's power on that fight, rage boosts coincidently didn't recover Goku's energy -although in your defence it has to be said that this isn't a coincidence if we consider your theory of Gohan taking a nap during his fight against Vegeta- even when he coincidently was able to dodge one of 100% Freezer's attacks and he coincidently was the first character of the whole series to be really tired and with only a fraction of his power without a visible sign of him being tired) and now you're using the "there are no examples" to invalidate what I'm saying? LOL

I'm sorry but this is just malicious. If you are going to say stuff like this then you should probably take your opinions elsewhere. I'm trying to have a debate with you but you are either seemingly avoiding the points I try to raise or mocking me by exaggerating stuff. Like the whole "Your Gohan napping theory." The Vegeta vs Gohan "example" is still open to debate. Other than this point which has yet to be decided you have no examples. If you are wrong about the Vegeta vs Gohan example then you don't actually have any examples to back up your claim that rage boosts have always happened with little Ki and always recover the entirety of it.

Trunks was trying a lot harder than Goku. The fact that Goku restricted himself to blocking it with just a finger is enough of a feat to say that Goku > Trunks.

Trunks wasn't using all his power to attack. Since this is a clearly stated fact, it doesn't matter if Goku stopped him with a finger. That only proves that Goku was using more strength than Trunks at that moment.

The fact that Goku deflects Trunks sword several times with just a finger even if both of them aren't really trying is still a possible feat to consider Goku > Trunks. But it is up to a persons individual opinion I guess as there is no real way to exclusively claim it without more evidence.

Why would Goku go SSJ and suppress his ki? If the world was in danger then there would be no reason.

Yes, we've never seen Goku supressing his ki in front of weaker enemies. Well, except for when he fought against Reecoome, Burter and Jeece, or when he fought against Yakon, or even when he fought against SSJ2 Vegeta and Bu was being awoken. He has never done anything like that, right?

As Vegeta said during the fight with the Ginyu Force the only reason Goku was supressing his Ki and using it in bursts was to conserve his Ki for later fights. Was Yakon on Earth with the intent of blowing it up? I don't see the urgency for Goku to go full out against an opponent he could easily deal with and wasn't trying to destroy his planet at the time. And you, yourself should know Goku was going all out in SSJ2. Are you saying he was holding back because he had SSJ3? Goku is already aware the risks of using SSJ3 on his day on Earth before he even uses it so he would rather not use it and leave it as a last resort. Like he did against Fat Boo to stall for more time.

Current Ki: 75% + Rage Boost: 50% is not the same as Current Ki: 1% + Rage Boost: 50%. Is it?

Hahahahah I love that. So you pull that a rage boost is a 50% increase from your ass, and now that's a proof that I'm wrong. Gohan went from 1 to 1200 against Raditz, he went past 1 million against Freezer when he was clearly much lower than 530.000 before and... well, considering how many excuses (I'll consider what you say as arguments or reasons when I see it justified with manga facts).

The 50% increase was just an example to get my point across. I was merely pointing out that the user doesn't need to receive 100% to have a rage boost. It wasn't meant as proof that you are wrong. Also, Gohan didn't go from 1 to 1200. Raditz scouter readings had Gohan at 710 previous to the rage boost. It only went to 1 after he used the rage boost. But I don't see why you are bringing this up. Gohan is a messed up character. His power fluctuates all the time. Even if he had been 1 originally that doesn't mean that was his actual "full power." And Gohan is also a special case as I said 4 or 5 posts ago. He has a massive well of hidden energy to draw upon, surpassing any character in the series. It's hardly fair to compare any character to him. Vegeta even states he has never seen a person, or Saiyan, have so much hidden power.

Gohan confuses the feel of the ki, not the size of it.

Yes, that's right. He didn't confuse the size of the ki because it was the same size than Goku in Namek. He confused the feel because it was pretty close to the one Goku had, even when we know it wasn't exactly equal. There's no reason why he should have confused the size, and considering that he said that Trunks had the same ki than Goku, there's no reason to think that the size was different.

The reason Gohan said Trunks had the same Ki was because he was a SSJ. It's established throughout the manga that the transformations have a different Ki signature than the base form. As such a person can tell if a Saiyan is fighting in SSJ or not. Again, the Japanese is very specific in this regard. If you want to take size into consideration then, as I said, there will be a difference between Goku and Trunks. No matter how small or how big. If Trunks is going at full power then it is going to be weaker or stronger than SSJ Goku's 100% no matter how you see it. And characters can tell when a person is going full out too. Trunks is a pretty serious character and would likely not suppress his Ki when fighting Freeza. Gohan would have sensed a clear distinction to Goku's 100% and Trunks' 100% but didn't comment on it. If this is what you believe anyway. But that is just as likely as Goku being weak and Gohan confusing Trunks 100% for Goku's 100%.

But you are assuming that just because he doesn't say anything about an increase in his power is fact. That is an opinion. He isn't confusing his Father's ki with Trunks due to size. It's due to feel, as what Herms translated. Ki size is NEVER mentioned so Goku having the same relative ki size to Trunks is as much an assumption as Goku being weaker. I really don't understand why you find it so hard to see that.

What I find really hard to understand is how many different excuses I've seen in order to not recognise that what's not written nor implied is not there. Ki is mentioned as a whole, and that also include size. It's obvious that size alone wouldn't confuse Gohan, so that's why he doesn't specifically speak about "size". Is that too hard to understand?

The only thing to confuse him was the Ki type. As I said above, it is seen throughout the manga that SSJ has a specific Ki type which distinguishes a SSJ from a regular Saiyan. Had size come into it then Gohan would have spotted the difference between a 100% Goku and a 100% Trunks and brought it up as their powers aren't going to be exactly the same.

Again I know I am making assumptions. But that is all we can do.

Well, I would recommend you to at least read the manga before making the assumptions. There's a "tiny" difference in making assumptions based on direct statements of the manga, and your assumptions based on what a certain character could've been thinking even if it wasn't written. I mean, are you aware that there is a special kind of bubbles to represent that a character is thinking instead of speaking? If Toriyama wanted Gohan to think something, he would've used one of those.
Well, there's also the possibility that he forgot to use them, he had to be pretty stressed thinking how many muscle mass he had to draw for his next power up

That is pretty offensive considering you were the one who tried to base Gohan not being able to fight on a statement that I can only assume wasn't even correctly translated. You are also making assumptions based on what a character could be thinking even if it isn't written. Gohan never pertains to the size of Trunks' Ki compared to his fathers so you are making an equal assumption that they have to be the same. Rather than my assumption that Ki size is never indicated because Goku wasn't at 100% on Namek.

You are saying your assumption as if it is fact yet again

No, what I'm saying is that my assumptions are based on facts, which is not the case of your excuses. I'm still waiting for a single quote of the manga to support your stance.

You are saying your assumptions are based on fact yet all of the instances of your facts are highly subjective to ones own opinion and perspective. You say it is fact that Gohan has no Ki because he can't stand up. But Gohan never says he can't move. He only says he can't because it hurts too much. Goku even says he can still fight to hold off Vegeta.

You say Goku must be at 100% because Gohan's mistakes Trunks Ki for his fathers so Goku must be as strong as Trunks, yet the only way Gohan could mistake Goku and Trunks is if Trunks wasn't going all out against Freeza because throughout the manga we know characters can tell when someone is using their full power.

Your assumption that rage boosts restore all your Ki no matter the situation because according to you all rage boosts demonstrate someone going from minimal Ki to full power. Yet the only possible example of this is Gohan vs Vegeta and even that is highly subjective because you are basing it on the fact that your assumption Gohan can't stand is because he has little to no Ki left.

That is an assumption based on an assumption and you can check every rage boost Gohan has had other than this one, Gohan has had a good portion of Ki to full power.

Considering the amount of contradictory excuses I've read it would be enough for me to stop at that point... if it wasn't for that:

Because physical stamina has a bearing on that? Goku can get his physical stamina back without 100% Ki.

This is glorious. Of course, no one will find a single case of someone regaining all his stamina without regaining all his ki at the same time, but of course as a real DB fan you won't allow the manga to interfere with what really happened on DB. Glorious.

None of my assumptions have been contradictory. And I don't appreciate your harsh tone towards my opinions. Goku has shown to have stamina several times throughout the manga while not having all of his full power. A perfect example is his fight with Tambourine. If Goku got 100% back like you said then why was he huffing and puffing during the battle with Freeza but then after the fight he was fine? Are you going to tell me that during the whole fight Goku didn't lose an ounce of Ki even though 100% Freeza got in a good deal of punches and his huffing and puffing was all fake?

You'd be wrong, since x40 would be equal to 100% Freeza. Since SS Goku was superior to Freeza it absolutely bare minimum has to be above 40x.

Sure, if you take the numbers and multipliers from Daizenshuu and SEG seriously. Freeza to have 120 million Ki, he would have transformed, in the beginning of the battle (all fresh) and this is not what happened. He took immense damage from Goku and especially from the Genki-Dama (almost a fatal blow). Daizenshuu
and SEG do not take the damage (more damage = less ki = less strong) into account. By Daizenshuu logic, Yajirobe is tronger that Goku Kaio-O-Ken 2, because, Yajirobe put a better fight and he did more damage to Vegeta that Goku with the Kaio-O-Ken 2. Yajirobe would have a battle power of 17,000, because he given more figh to Vegeta that Goku with Kaio-O-Ken 2.

Goku was also severely damaged himself and was running on little to no Ki when he transformed. He may have gained back a portion during the transformation to make it more even. Where do you put the SSJ multiplier then? Because anything less than 20x and Goku may as well just keep using the Kaioken to fight enemies and possibly push it to higher levels like 25x KK or 30x KK.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

You'd be wrong, since x40 would be equal to 100% Freeza. Since SS Goku was superior to Freeza it absolutely bare minimum has to be above 40x.

Sure, if you take the numbers and multipliers from Daizenshuu and SEG seriously. Freeza to have 120 million Ki, he would have transformed, in the beginning of the battle (all fresh) and this is not what happened. He took immense damage from Goku and especially from the Genki-Dama (almost a fatal blow). Daizenshuu
and SEG do not take the damage (more damage = less ki = less strong) into account. By Daizenshuu logic, Yajirobe is tronger that Goku Kaio-O-Ken 2, because, Yajirobe put a better fight and he did more damage to Vegeta that Goku with the Kaio-O-Ken 2. Yajirobe would have a battle power of 17,000, because he given more figh to Vegeta that Goku with Kaio-O-Ken 2.

Goku was also severely damaged himself and was running on little to no Ki when he transformed. He may have gained back a portion during the transformation to make it more even. Where do you put the SSJ multiplier then? Because anything less than 20x and Goku may as well just keep using the Kaioken to fight enemies and possibly push it to higher levels like 25x KK or 30x KK.

I would not give a specific multiplier in the battle against Freeza, but I could tell you, it would be less than 20X. The problem I have with the Daizenshuu and the Super Saiyan multiplier is that it is misplaced. Goku could only reach a multiplier between 40X and 50X in the Cell Games Saga and the Majin Buu saga. The writers of the Daizenshuu basically put a multiplier of Super Saiyan Full Power from the next sagas into a basic Super Saiyan from Saga Namek (years before the training necessary to achieve and other stuff - like the ROSAT). In between, these writers do not consider how much more a fighter gets damaged, less Ki the fighter has, and with this the fighter is less strong.
I would have no problem if the writers of Daizenshuu separate a multiplier for the case of a Basic Super Saiyan (as Goku on Namek, or later on Vegeta or Trunks in the Android Saga) and then they would given the multiplier of 50X but with an image and a message saying: Super Saiyan Full Power Goku has a multiplier between 40X and 50X.

Edit: The SEG multipliers to Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3, in my opinion these multipliers are too high in case Goku, and (I think Goku is that the writers are giving prominence) since Goku is in the image that appears in the book. And once again, they do not take into account that the transformation of a SSJ 3 drained too quick the ki of the user and the multiplier be 4 times higher than Super Saiyan 2 does not make sense.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And I suppose that you have at least one page of the manga where it's said that the first time you transform you regain your strength, but not the following ones. Right?

There isn't such a page, and I never said that this is a fact. It's my personal interpretation of what's going on: Goku could barely stand, he transforms, and he has enough power to stand up. This never happens after transforming again, so the only logical (for me) conclusion is this.

When did Freezer say that Vegeta had a tranquil heart? And more than tranquil, what's said is "pure" if my version of the manga is accurate in that regard...

I've asked before, and I've been told that the correct word is tranquil/calm/gentle (all 3 are the same thing).

I've got a question about Super Saiyan God:

What is the requirement? Do the Saiyans have to be pure hearted? Good hearted? Righteous? What's the exact word? Is it the same tranquil/calm heart like with regular Super Saiyan?

The one used for God is "正しい心" which is "righteous heart", while the regular Super Saiyan is "おだやかな心" which is more along the lines of a calm or gentle heart. Similar but not the same!

And as for when Freeza said it:

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

Of course:

(Heh look, we posted the same thing.)
Well, this has nothing to do with the rage boost. This says that Goku's rage made him transform. Gohan's rage makes him stronger without transforming.

And Goku clearly got stronger without transforming. The proof is even on the drawing. How Goku had a semi-closed eye until Krilin is killed, and then he not only looses that but also has no problem to stand up. He enraged, he had a power up, and then because of that he transformed.

He was in the middle of the transformation.

Freeza received great damage from fighting Goku and especially from Genki-dama, Freeza Ki decreases a lot, it quite impossible to get it 120KK, then this makes impossible for Goku having a 50X boost power base.

Goku could barely stand before transforming, and while most of his power was restored, it doesn't mean that he was at 100%. Same for Freeza. So they were both wounded, which allowed them to have an even match, but with Goku still being superior. Then after a while, Freeza's ki started to drop, which made him even weaker.

It says : he will be outstripped. He is not saying I am outstripped.Big difference here, sir.

When did I ever said that the kids are on the same level? I said that the difference was less than x2, which seems to be true, based on other fights.

I never said that Gotenks is weaker than Goku, I only say that the multipliers given by Daizenshuu and SEG are contradictory against the manga.

But you never said what they contradict.

Of course, as he approves the movies that contradicted the manga in all aspects (irony mode on).

When did he say that?

I doubt if he had seen the section of the power levels he let it pass.

The only BPs that are contradictory are Nappa's, and maybe Raditz's. The rest are fine. Besides, it's not like Toriyama cares about the BPs.

I've posted in previous pages my opinion about SEG multipliers. Basically a difference of more than 800% between the same two characters in the same period of time, considering the percentages in previous sagas (from 10% to 35% is a instant victory) is too ridiculous and too high seriously to be taken, unless you take and you accept the information (power levels and multipliers) that appears in Daizenshuu and SEG. I do not consider any percentage or battle power of these books.

But that's just something you don't like, it doesn't contradict anything.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH"][/quote]

"Goku could barely stand before transforming, and while most of his power was restored, it doesn't mean that he was at 100%. Same for Freeza. So they were both wounded, which allowed them to have an even match, but with Goku still being superior. Then after a while, Freeza's ki started to drop, which made him even weaker."

I've said it what you say, I had already had one of my other posts. And...What does this have to do with the transformation being inferior in terms of boost with Kaio Ken 20X?

"But you never said what they contradict."

One of the reasons:
I've posted in previous pages my opinion about SEG multipliers. Basically a difference of more than 800% between the same two characters in the same period of time, considering the percentages in previous sagas (from 10% to 35% is a instant victory) is too ridiculous and too high seriously to be taken, unless you take and you accept the information (power levels and multipliers) that appears in Daizenshuu and SEG. I do not consider any percentage or battle power from these books.
Another reason:
Daizenshuu
and SEG do not take the damage (more damage = less ki = less strong) into account. By Daizenshuu logic, Yajirobe is tronger that Goku Kaio-O-Ken 2, because, Yajirobe put a better fight and he did more damage to Vegeta that Goku with the Kaio-O-Ken 2. Yajirobe would have a battle power of 17,000, because he given more figh to Vegeta that Goku with Kaio-O-Ken 2.


"When did he say that?"

I was being ironic. Toriyama clearly says the opposite Toriymana (himself) tells us we do not take into account the films with the manga, because, guess what, the movies are full of errors and mistakes .

"The only BPs that are contradictory are Nappa's, and maybe Raditz's. The rest are fine. Besides, it's not like Toriyama cares about the BPs."

Correct, is because of Toriyama Personality - basically Toriyama did not care, he just wanted the money for the use of his characters - that he missed these mistakes in section of Power Levels on Daizenshuu. And no, most of the Power Levels are wrong, is not only the power levels of Raditz and Nappa.

"But that's just something you don't like, it doesn't contradict anything."

Contradicts all regarding the Manga. Especially Goku have a transformation 50X his base form in the battle against Frieza and SSJ 3 = 2X 4X SSJ 2, which is proven wrong throughout the manga with the Fights between Buu and Vegeta and Super Saiyan Gotens VS Buu and SSJ 3 Gotenks and Buu again.

[Hitiro]

I would not give a specific multiplier in the battle against Freeza, but I could tell you, it would be less than 20X. The problem I have with the Daizenshuu and the Super Saiyan multiplier is that it is misplaced. Goku could only reach a multiplier between 40X and 50X in the Cell Games Saga and the Majin Buu saga. The writers of the Daizenshuu basically put a multiplier of Super Saiyan Full Power from the next sagas into a basic Super Saiyan from Saga Namek (years before the training necessary to achieve and other stuff - like the ROSAT). In between, these writers do not consider how much more a fighter gets damaged, less Ki the fighter has, and with this the fighter is less strong.
I would have no problem if the writers of Daizenshuu separate a multiplier for the case of a Basic Super Saiyan (as Goku on Namek, or later on Vegeta or Trunks in the Android Saga) and then they would given the multiplier of 50X but with an image and a message saying: Super Saiyan Full Power Goku has a multiplier between 40X and 50X.

Edit: The SEG multipliers to Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3, in my opinion these multipliers are too high in case Goku, and (I think Goku is that the writers are giving prominence) since Goku is in the image that appears in the book. And once again, they do not take into account that the transformation of a SSJ 3 drained too quick the ki of the user and the multiplier be 4 times higher than Super Saiyan 2 does not make sense.

Again, if SSJ was lower than KKx20 then why would Goku use it? Also. Full Power SSJ was never stated to be stronger than regular SSJ. FPSSJ is just SSJ with better ki management as it reduces the ki consumption of the transformation and allows the Saiyan's to continue fighting at 100% for longer. The writers of the Daizenshuu attribute Goku and Gohan's Cell Saga Battle Powers as a product of training in SSJ while in the RoSaT. It never said anywhere that FPSSJ gives a higher multiplier than regular SSJ. You need to read the manga.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
[ ]
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

I don't see why you are placing Goku's multiplier below the KKx20 when Goku was even more weak and damaged than Freeza. Ignoring any recuperating affects and assuming Goku had 10% of his ki left, that would put Goku at 300,000. If the SSJ multiplier was 50x it would put him at 15 million. If we pretend Freeza was damaged as much as Goku then 10% of his power he would be 12 million. But Freeza isn't as damaged as Goku is. You see?

[Darkprince410]

Contradicts all regarding the Manga. Especially Goku have a transformation 50X his base form in the battle against Freeza and SSJ 3 = 2X 4X SSJ 2, which is proven wrong throughout the manga with the Fights between Buu and Vegeta and Super Saiyan Gotens VS Buu and SSJ 3 Gotenks and Buu again.

How? Using straightforward facts from the manga, not just your beliefs about how it doesn't work, how do those multipliers contradict what is seen in the manga? As we see, Goku needed something above 40x to be able to fight and surpass 100% full power Freeza (both were damaged and weakened considerably up to that point, so saying something like "Goku didn't need that much because Freeza was weak from the Genki Dama" is a moot point).

Furthermore, if you're going to use the % difference that you have before, as I've pointed out, there have been plenty of cases where fighters have survived hits despite the gap being far higher than what you deem possible. As mentioned before, Goku and Piccolo were taking hits from Raditz when both were at least 3x as weak as he was (low 400's vs. a minimum of 1,200 if we're going solely by numbers from the manga), which constitutes a difference of 300%. Later, we've got Goku surviving blows from Freeza while the former doesn't have the Kaiou-ken up for protection and the latter is at 50% full power, a difference of at least 20x, or 2,000%. Were they losing? Sure, I'm not going to argue that at all. But was it an instant victory to where they got one-shotted by a single attack? Not in the slightest.

Furthermore, using your 10%-35% difference = instant victory for the stronger scenario, Vegeta should have instantly beat Kaiou-ken Goku when the two were fighting during the Saiya-jin Saga, as Goku was at 16,000 and Vegeta was at 18,000, thus a difference of 11%. However, we see that Goku was able to easily rebound from Vegeta's attacks, and while slower and weaker, it wasn't anything remotely close to Vegeta totally dominating him.

So there's no reason to assume that Vegeta wouldn't be able to survive blows from someone 400% stronger than he is, especially given that Pure Buu quite clearly was playing around and thus wasn't giving it his all. The same can also be said about Ssj Gotenks vs. Evil Buu, who really only got one or two hits in on Gotenks before Piccolo destroyed the doorway to the RoSaT, thus ending the fight. Likewise, we saw that Evil Buu wasn't taking the fight seriously at all, since he was there sipping a drink and reading as Gotenks was trying to get his ghosts in order.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I've said it what you say, I had already had one of my other posts. And...What does this have to do with the transformation being inferior in terms of boost with Kaio Ken 20X?

What do you mean? The transformation isn't inferior to Kaio-ken x20. If it was, Goku wouldn't have been stronger than Freeza.

I've posted in previous pages my opinion about SEG multipliers. Basically a difference of more than 800% between the same two characters in the same period of time, considering the percentages in previous sagas (from 10% to 35% is a instant victory) is too ridiculous and too high seriously to be taken, unless you take and you accept the information (power levels and multipliers) that appears in Daizenshuu and SEG. I do not consider any percentage or battle power from these books.

But SS3 Goku never fought with SS/3 Gotenks, U. Gohan, or Evil/Gotenks/Piccolo/Gohan Boo. So, the difference can be anything.

Another reason:
Daizenshuu
and SEG do not take the damage (more damage = less ki = less strong) into account.

Of course, they give the BP they have in their full power, not the BP they have in the picture.

By Daizenshuu logic, Yajirobe is tronger that Goku Kaio-O-Ken 2, because, Yajirobe put a better fight and he did more damage to Vegeta that Goku with the Kaio-O-Ken 2. Yajirobe would have a battle power of 17,000, because he given more figh to Vegeta that Goku with Kaio-O-Ken 2.

... What are you talking about? Yajirobe never fought with Vegeta, he only sliced his tail & back from behind.

I was being ironic. Toriyama clearly says the opposite Toriymana (himself) tells us we do not take into account the films with the manga, because, guess what, the movies are full of errors and mistakes .

Yeah, he did say that the anime is its own thing, but he didn't say such a thing for the guides.

Correct, is because of Toriyama Personality - basically Toriyama did not care, he just wanted the money for the use of his characters - that he missed these mistakes in section of Power Levels on Daizenshuu. And no, most of the Power Levels are wrong, is not only the power levels of Raditz and Nappa.

What else is wrong there? Don't tell me about Goku's BP being 8.000 instead of over 8.000.

Contradicts all regarding the Manga. Especially Goku have a transformation 50X his base form in the battle against Freeza and SSJ 3 = 2X 4X SSJ 2, which is proven wrong throughout the manga with the Fights between Buu and Vegeta and Super Saiyan Gotens VS Buu and SSJ 3 Gotenks and Buu again.

Again, the fight with Freeza doesn't contradict anything, both Goku & Freeza were injured. Fat Boo was no match for Vegeta, and he wasn't even serious, and Evil Boo got serious against Gotenks only when Gotenks went SS3, not to mention that it was partially a gag fight.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

I would not give a specific multiplier in the battle against Freeza, but I could tell you, it would be less than 20X. The problem I have with the Daizenshuu and the Super Saiyan multiplier is that it is misplaced. Goku could only reach a multiplier between 40X and 50X in the Cell Games Saga and the Majin Buu saga. The writers of the Daizenshuu basically put a multiplier of Super Saiyan Full Power from the next sagas into a basic Super Saiyan from Saga Namek (years before the training necessary to achieve and other stuff - like the ROSAT). In between, these writers do not consider how much more a fighter gets damaged, less Ki the fighter has, and with this the fighter is less strong.
I would have no problem if the writers of Daizenshuu separate a multiplier for the case of a Basic Super Saiyan (as Goku on Namek, or later on Vegeta or Trunks in the Android Saga) and then they would given the multiplier of 50X but with an image and a message saying: Super Saiyan Full Power Goku has a multiplier between 40X and 50X.

Edit: The SEG multipliers to Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3, in my opinion these multipliers are too high in case Goku, and (I think Goku is that the writers are giving prominence) since Goku is in the image that appears in the book. And once again, they do not take into account that the transformation of a SSJ 3 drained too quick the ki of the user and the multiplier be 4 times higher than Super Saiyan 2 does not make sense.

Again, if SSJ was lower than KKx20 then why would Goku use it? Also. Full Power SSJ was never stated to be stronger than regular SSJ. FPSSJ is just SSJ with better ki management as it reduces the ki consumption of the transformation and allows the Saiyan's to continue fighting at 100% for longer. The writers of the Daizenshuu attribute Goku and Gohan's Cell Saga Battle Powers as a product of training in SSJ while in the RoSaT. It never said anywhere that FPSSJ gives a higher multiplier than regular SSJ. You need to read the manga.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
[ ]
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

I don't see why you are placing Goku's multiplier below the KKx20 when Goku was even more weak and damaged than Freeza. Ignoring any recuperating affects and assuming Goku had 10% of his ki left, that would put Goku at 300,000. If the SSJ multiplier was 50x it would put him at 15 million. If we pretend Freeza was damaged as much as Goku then 10% of his power he would be 12 million. But Freeza isn't as damaged as Goku is. You see?

Why you bring information from Daizenshuu if I said I do not want to know about this guide. Super Saiyan must be less than 20X, unless the journeys of the Saiyans to ROSAT are completely useless.One of the simplest reasons is that the Base Saiyans do not increased strength, since the form of Super Saiyan is reached. The manga is full of examples and I could give you lots of examples, but it seems that is you who need to read the manga, not me.
As I said a few pages back, if the manga had finished in the fight against Frieza, there would be not so many problems with these multipliers. But the manga continued and Toriyama takes advantage of opportunities to create new designs for his manga. Vegeta, Goku and Trunks had already reached their maximum at their bases at the beginning of the Androids Saga, so they went to the ROSAT, to increase the use of energy of the total power of the Super Saiyan form, hence the name Super Saiyan Full Power. When they leave the Rosat, so yes, at this point Goku has a Super Saiyan transformation with a multiplier more than 40X. Never before ROSAT.

Edit: Even the precious Daizenshuu, agrees with me on this, that the Saiyans were just ROSAT to increase their capacity of their Super Saiyan forms: "Goku and Gohan's Cell Saga Battle Powers as a product of training in SSJ"
They do not train the bases because the bases of the Saiyans had already reached their limits (in the case of Goku, it reached its maximum on Namek). So what the Saiyans train on the ROSAT? Correct, their forms of Super Saiyans, not the Bases.

[dbgtFO]

Some things I wanted to address:

First of all I don't like the term "rage boost," as it just sounds stupid. Second of all the whole "only Gohan gets stronger and or gets his ki healed by rage boosting" statement seems like a misconception to me.
The whole point of Gohan was, that he was a little, insecure kid, who didn't know about his huge hidden powers nor how to control them. Most of the time he needed to get angry to get rid of those inhibitions to unleash his full power.
It's unlike Goku, who could control his power without needing to get angry to fight at full power. When about to fight Nappa, Goku got angry and powered up, but it's doubtful anyone would call that a "rage boost."

When Gohan could get up and fight Vegeta, it was not because he was healed by virtue of his "rage boost." It was because, Gohan hadn't used his power yet, since recovering it. Thus he had a huge reserve of power just waiting to be unleashed even in a slightly injured state.
It's unlike, when Goku confronted Tambourine, because Goku, despite being angry, couldn't use the full extent of his power, because he had already done so against Tenshinhan.

As for 100% Freeza, I doubt Toriyama thought Freeza would be much stronger, if it wasn't for his injuries. Freeza repeatedly claimed he was using 100% of his power/full power and if he really would have been much stronger without injuries, it's really bad writing not to have this explicitly pointed out to the reader.
I think the fact, that Freeza hadn't used his full power yet made it possible for him to use all of it against Goku. I also think Cell could have done the same against Gohan, even if he didn't get the senzu from Goku. At most their stamina should be reduced.

As for Super Saiyan Goku, I agree with this part of TC's post:

The Super Saiyan be a huge reservoir of pure energy that any Saiyan could access when necessary,makes better sense within the context of the manga.

The 50x multiplier is often thought in a very simple manner as in "Goku's power dropped a whole lot and should really be far less than 1,000,000, thus as a Super Saiyan he still wouldn't come close to ½ of Freeza's power."

I think differently:

The 50x multiplier works in the sense that it's a huge reserve of Super Saiyan power, that's 50 times greater than one's normal power. So even though Goku had lost a huge amount of power, his Super Saiyan power was the same it would have been normally, because he hadn't used any of it up till that point.
We never see this happen again, because everyone just started out as Super Saiyans and then lost it, making them unable to tap into that power again, because they had just used all of it up, unlike Goku.

I don't know how Toriyama envisaged Super Saiyan power back then, what with his 10x strength statement, but I don't think he made much sense unless he really did think that Freeza lost the bulk of his power, or something like that.

[Hitiro]

Why you bring information from Daizenshuu if I said I do not want to know about this guide. Super Saiyan must be less than 20X, unless the journeys of the Saiyans to ROSAT are completely useless.One of the simplest reasons is that the Base Saiyans do not increased strength, since the form of Super Saiyan is reached. The manga is full of examples and I could give you lots of examples, but it seems that is you who need to read the manga, not me.
As I said a few pages back, if the manga had finished in the fight against Freeza, there would be not so many problems with these multipliers. But the manga continued and Toriyama takes advantage of opportunities to create new designs for his manga. Vegeta, Goku and Trunks had already reached their maximum at their bases at the beginning of the Androids Saga, so they went to the ROSAT, to increase the use of energy of the total power of the Super Saiyan form, hence the name Super Saiyan Full Power. When they leave the Rosat, so yes, at this point Goku has a Super Saiyan transformation with a multiplier more than 40X. Never before ROSAT.

Edit: Even the precious Daizenshuu, agrees with me on this, that the Saiyans were just ROSAT to increase their capacity of their Super Saiyan forms: "Goku and Gohan's Cell Saga Battle Powers as a product of training in SSJ"
They do not train the bases because the bases of the Saiyans had already reached their limits (in the case of Goku, it reached its maximum on Namek). So what the Saiyans train on the ROSAT? Correct, their forms of Super Saiyans, not the Bases.

I brought the Daizenshuu up because you made it sound as if they a were trying to say the 50x multiplier only fits for FPSSJ. Which isn't the case. If SSJ is less than 20x Goku should just not use it then as KKx20 is better? And no, base Saiyan's do increase in strength. Otherwise why would Goku even be training in his base form during the Boo arc? For fun? It is never implied that they can't get stronger in their base form.

Look at this way, if Goku and Freeza were both equally injured then Goku isn't going to beat Freeza without a 40+ multiplier. As it so happens, Goku was the one who was most injured in the fight. So it makes it even more impossible that the multiplier is less than 20x. Unless you believe Goku fully healed after transforming into a SSJ then there is no other possible way for it to be less than 20x.

No, Goku, Trunks and Vegeta went into the ROSAT to obtain a new level of SSJ. A SSJ 2. But Goku determined the regular SSJ was best for fighting Cell and trained to rid it of it's weakness, the ki consumption. No multiplier increase is ever implied or stated. And no, the Daizenshuu doesn't agree with you on this. It doesn't say anything about increasing their capacity for their SSJ forms. It says the gains they received were due to training in SSJ. Their gains would be significantly less if they trained in their base form. As I said above we see Goku training in heaven in his base form. If he couldn't increase his base form then what would be the purpose of him training in it?

Someone put it very well about what FPSSJ is :- "The key to this state is energy conservation rather than boosted energy output. This results in a Saiyan who is able to fight longer and more efficiently than with the Ascended and Ultra stages of Super Saiyan."