Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[KentalSSJ6]

Why does 16 randomly get weaker?

Darkron may have changed his power in one section but forgot to change it in the other. Happens to me all the time.

Anyway, I like the list. I personally appreciate the adherence to official numbers and lack of fussing over specific power gaps, and like Kental said, it's nice to see the later arc's numbers not get bloated to a ridiculous extent for no good reason. In fact, the ranges of power where the Saiyans end up during Majin Boo are pretty similar to in my list.

I'm sure you know of him, but what do you think of Vegito1089's power level videos on youtube? Granted they arent much seeing as his Battle of Gods video has Goku at roughly 4.5 Billion base - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQUlttsrf94

I brought up Beerus's statement of Goku still needed SSJ to defeat Freeza therefore meaning BOG Base Goku - Somewhere under 120 Million but have yet to receive a reply.

[xmysticgohanx]

I think it's pretty good. Only problems I can see is SSJ3 Goku being less than SSJ Gotenks and Vegetto being pretty low which messed up your BoG numbers. Pretty good first post

[Darkron2151]

Why does 16 randomly get weaker?

Fixed

[Darkron2151]

I think it's pretty good. Only problems I can see is SSJ3 Goku being less than SSJ Gotenks and Vegetto being pretty low which messed up your BoG numbers. Pretty good first post

But I have Super Saiyan 3 Goku stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks. And I intentionally have Vegetto at that level so he can fit in the 6:10:15 split that Godku, Beerus, and Whis are said to be in. I personall have him as a 4.

[KentalSSJ6]

I think it's pretty good. Only problems I can see is SSJ3 Goku being less than SSJ Gotenks and Vegetto being pretty low which messed up your BoG numbers. Pretty good first post

But SSJ3 Goku IS weaker than SSJ Gotenks, post RoSaT at least.

[Darkron2151]

But SSJ3 Goku IS weaker than SSJ Gotenks, post RoSaT at least.

Entirely up for debate. One could say that Gotenks, before becoming Super Saiyan 3, was made simply for a Gag in and of itself. Other than the end fight with Super Buu and being absorbed, there really wasn't anything special about him. I at least wanted to make him over Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta just for power's sake. Some people even have him weaker than Goku, even as a Super Saiyan 3! But hey, to each his own.

[dbgtFO]

I like your list Darkron, it's very good and the numbers are easy on the eye most of the time.
I also don't have a particular big problem with SSJ Gotenks < SSJ 3 Goku.
I do Wonder why you think Dabra was stronger than SSJ Gohan?
I think in terms of power Gohan appeared to have the edge, which resulted in Dabra using his magic to get the edge.

[Darkron2151]

Off topic for a bit, but has anyone ever thought about doing a Hypothetical Power Level list or a "what if" list? For instance, if Freeza turned into a 5th form on Namek instead of bulking up into 100% true form like he did. I might do something like that because that honestly sounds like fun.

[Darkron2151]

I do Wonder why you think Dabra was stronger than SSJ Gohan?
I think in terms of power Gohan appeared to have the edge, which resulted in Dabra using his magic to get the edge.

Thanks for bringing this up because, honestly, I was at a couple cross-roads with this one. I'll probably make them on par with one another. In the manga fight, Dabura looked as though he was getting more hits in than Gohan, but that could have just been from lack of training on Gohan's part.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Off topic for a bit, but has anyone ever thought about doing a Hypothetical Power Level list or a "what if" list? For instance, if Freeza turned into a 5th form on Namek instead of bulking up into 100% true form like he did. I might do something like that because that honestly sounds like fun.

The aforementioned Vegeto1089 has done that in some of his videos

[Darkron2151]

The aforementioned Vegeto1089 has done that in some of his videos

True, but that doesn't mean we can't do it too. Plus some lists will be different than others, so it keeps things interesting.

[xmysticgohanx]

I think it's pretty good. Only problems I can see is SSJ3 Goku being less than SSJ Gotenks and Vegetto being pretty low which messed up your BoG numbers. Pretty good first post

But I have ssj3 Goku Stronger than ssj Gotenks. And I intentionally have Vegetto at that level so he can fit in the 6:10:12 split that Godku, Beerus, and Whis are said to be in. I personall have him as a 4.

Goku said SSJ Gotenks is stronger than Goku's SSJ3 but w/e. I'm pretty sure the split is 6:10:15 not 12.

[Darkron2151]

Goku said SSJ Gotenks is stronger than Goku's SSJ3 but w/e. I'm pretty sure the split is 6:10:15 not 12.

Goku said no such thing. He had faith in the boys and their fusion, but never said anything about their strength in comparison to his own until Gotenks turned ssj3, saying how it took him years to "master" it while they got it down pat within a couple weeks. And you're right about the 6:10:15 thing. My bad

[Vice]

I stopped at Vegeta being 25,000. One cannot simply go around the established fact that Vegeta was 18,000 and didn't have the ability to power up at that time only because it appears to them that the story indicates otherwise.

He clearly powered up just before fighting Goku. While I don't agree that his max was 25,000, people who can't control their ki, IE the Saiyan/Freeza Arc guys, clearly have a resting state and a powered up state. Whereas the Z guys can manipulate their ki from 0-max and everything in between at wiil.

[dbgtFO]

I stopped at Vegeta being 25,000. One cannot simply go around the established fact that Vegeta was 18,000 and didn't have the ability to power up at that time only because it appears to them that the story indicates otherwise.

He clearly powered up just before fighting Goku. While I don't agree that his max was 25,000, people who can't control their ki, IE the Saiyan/Freeza Arc guys, clearly have a resting state and a powered up state. Whereas the Z guys can manipulate their ki from 0-max and everything in between at wiil.

It's not until the Freeza Arc, people are shown to willingly suppress their power down to near zero. Gohan's power fluctuated all the way from 1 to 1,307, but that was of course involuntary actions.
Vegeta, Nappa, Raditz and everyone else except Zarbon Ginyu and Freeza should not be capable of changing the readings on the scouter.
That said, Toriyama did not clearly explain this leading to accusations of inconsistency, which is understandable.
Putting Vegeta's Garlick Gun at 25,000 or 24,000(equal to KKx3 Goku) seems pretty logical enough given that it equalled KKx3 Goku. A suitable explanation might be, that Vegeta had never been scouted, when using Garlick Gun, so he didn't know, he could raise his battle power like that.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku said SSJ Gotenks is stronger than Goku's SSJ3 but w/e. I'm pretty sure the split is 6:10:15 not 12.

Goku said no such thing.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”


Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P12.2-4
Kaioshin: “In-incredible…S-so this is Fusion?...”
Goku: “N-no…That’s Fusion, no doubt about it, but…Thi-this is Super Saiyan 3…! Un-unbelievable…Those rotten little brats…They al-already became Super Saiyan 3, and that took me years to finally manage it…Am-amazin’…haha…amazin’…!”
Note: So it seems that Goku never planned on Gotenks reaching Super Saiyan 3, but still thought he’d be able to defeat Boo.

[Darkron2151]

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

That was before Trunks and Goten ever even fused though. In this case, he would have no idea how strong or weak the fusion would be. And when they did fuse, Goku gave no comment or comparison about their power until they reached Super Saiyan 3. So, in hindsight, he probably just said that to Buu in order to get his hopes up about the fight and see if he stops killing, as he said above to Piccolo.

Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P12.2-4
Kaioshin: “In-incredible…S-so this is Fusion?...”
Goku: “N-no…That’s Fusion, no doubt about it, but…Thi-this is Super Saiyan 3…! Un-unbelievable…Those rotten little brats…They al-already became Super Saiyan 3, and that took me years to finally manage it…Am-amazin’…haha…amazin’…!”
Note: So it seems that Goku never planned on Gotenks reaching Super Saiyan 3, but still thought he’d be able to defeat Boo.

Yeah, after he turned Super Saiyan 3. Before Gotenks did that, he said absolutely nothing about their power or how they would fair against Buu. All he did was have faith in the boys' fusion and gave Buu a promise of a fight BEFORE they ever even fused. In this quote, Goku sounds both pretty excited and surprised. Not just about the fact that Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3, but also that they now have a chance to turn the tables against Buu.

[RandomGuy96]

That was before Trunks and Goten ever even fused though. In this case, he would have no idea how strong or weak the fusion would be. And when they did fuse, Goku gave no comment or comparison about their power until they reached ssj3. So, in hindsight, he probably just said that to Buu in order to get his hopes up about the fight and see if he stops killing, as he said above to Piccolo.

Goku can predict the results of the fusion just from seeing the two individuals. If he couldn't do that, he never would have left this to them in the first place. But as it stands, SS Gotenks [pre] > SS3 Goku is stated right there in the manga, with nothing to contradict it (also he never said that to Buu).

Yeah, after he turned ssj3. Before Gotenks did that, he said absolutely nothing about their power or how they would fair against Buu. All he did was have faith in the boys' fusion and gave Buu a promise of a fight BEFORE they ever even fused. In this quote, Goku sounds both pretty excited and surprised. Not just about the fact that Gotenks went ssj3, but also that they now have a chance to turn the tables against Buu.

He directly said they would easily crush Buu, and that Gotenks would be stronger than him.

[Darkron2151]

Goku can predict the results of the fusion just from seeing the two individuals. If he couldn't do that, he never would have left this to them in the first place. But as it stands, SS Gotenks [pre] > SS3 Goku is stated right there in the manga, with nothing to contradict it.

He directly said they would easily crush Buu, and that Gotenks would be stronger than him.

Nothing contradicts Super Saiyan Gotenks < Super Saiyan 3 Goku either. He really had to leave it up to them because no one else besides him could beat Buu. That and he wanted to leave it up to the new generation to save the earth. But like I said, that was before they fused. He said, "a warrior stronger than me" would beat Buu, but never specified the form. Keep in mind, this was before ANYONE, including Goku, knew that they could even transform to Super Saiyan in fusion. They even experimented with it later to see if it would work. From what you're saying, Goku would've already knew that they could be able to transform in their fusion, even though NO ONE knew they could even do that, which is kind of wonky. Goku's not psychic, unlike his father. For all we know, Goku could've predicted that Gotenks would beat Buu in his regular fused form, which he would then be wrong considering that Buu handed Gotenks his own butt when he was in base. You could really go both ways with this.

And to be frank, all of that is speculation anyways because not everything about Gotenks (or the entire Buu saga for that matter) is clear-cut. So saying that it is, "directly said", in the manga is far from the truth, because if that were the case, we wouldn't have countless "Gotenks" debates all over the internet because it would be sooooooo "directly said" or "clear in the manga". Regardless if he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku or weaker, it still works because the end result was still the same. He turned Super Saiyan 3 and served no other purpose to be absorbed by a horrible, gelatinous, pink monster .

Also he never said that to Buu.

What are you talking about?
He stated clearly to Fat Buu that a warrior stronger than himself would fight him in a couple days. That right there is clear as day.

[Kaboom]

All in all, I wish Super Saiyan 3 had remained exclusive to Goku, and that Gotenks would end up as extraordinarily powerful as he was hyped up to be but with just Super Saiyan 1, limited to it because that's all Goten and Trunks had.

That would have been interesting but also kept things a little more in check, and not made Gotenks look like such a useless wimp without Super Saiyan 3. As it stands, Gotenks had little going for him before Super Saiyan 3 beyond a lot of unfulfilled hype. You can hardly blame anyone for not believing up front that he was already an unstoppable force before gaining the higher levels.