Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense...

[KentalSSJ6]

Is this really still going on?

[Kaboom]

Here's the super-simple way I see it.

Super Saiyan is a roughly 50x boost. Started out that way, stays that way. Goku's fight with Freeza all but requires it, the guidebooks say it, and Toriyama's 10x comment doesn't have to mean anything beyond, "I pictured it as 10x when I drew it because 50x is a really REALLY big increase that's hard to scale in one's head."

As for training increases... Super Saiyan is a power amplifier. It takes whatever your base power is and multiplies it by 50, and that doesn't change. If you train in your base state and gain 10 points, then that becomes 500 points when you go Super Saiyan. If you train in Super Saiyan and gain 500 points, then vice-versa your base will be 10 points stronger.

As far as I figure, training in Super Saiyan may grant larger overall gains than training in base, probably just from something simple like working at such a higher level of power. But before you master Super Saiyan to get rid of the stress and energy drain, you can't train in the form for extended periods of time. Once Goku and Gohan fixed that problem, they were able to spar as Super Saiyans to their hearts' content. That, combined with the conditions of the Room of Spirit and Time, let them gain power at a CRAZY rate, until diminishing returns kicked in and Goku decided they were better off leaving.

[Cursed Lemon]

Is the Freeza thing literally the only point of contention here?

We could very easily say that both Goku AND Freeza got their full strength back when respectively going SSJ / powering up to 100%.

[Kaboom]

We could very easily say that both Goku AND Freeza got their full strength back when respectively going SSJ / powering up to 100%.

Yep, that seems like the simplest and easiest way to go about it.

By becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku unlocked a huge new reserve of power to work with. Freeza already had a huge reserve of power which he simply wasn't using yet, and was still able to tap into it despite his injuries to fight Goku. "One hundred percent" means "one hundred percent" unless we're told otherwise, plain and simple.

So in terms of power level a.k.a amount of raw ki, there's nothing preventing Goku and Freeza from working at their respective full 150 and 120 million each. Their physical injuries are the only thing left to possibly hold them back at all, but neither one of them seemed too much worse off than the other in that regard.

[freezamite]

You'd be wrong, since x40 would be equal to 100% Freeza. Since SS Goku was superior to Freeza it absolutely bare minimum has to be above 40x.

Krilin was also stronger than Vegeta, that's why he could kill hem although at the end he didn't. Since Vegeta was 18.000, Krilin was obviously stronger, right?

When was it ever stated that Freeza was impressed with Vegeta's strength and it was reason enough to destroy Planet Vegeta? I thought it was only ever implied that he destroyed Planet Vegeta because he was afraid a Saiyan, in general, would get strong enough to fight with him.

In fact, Freezer wasn't afraid of ONE sayan, he was afraid about the whole sayan race because they were turning stronger and stronger and he feared that one day they would all turn against him.
Vegeta being the trigger of Freezer's decision is implied on the manga by that fact (Freezer being afraid of the sayans becoming stronger and Vegeta being much stronger than any Sayan known until then) and then it was clearly stated in Bardock's original OVA (and since it was canonized by Toriyama himself, I consider it the only non-manga valid material).

I'm sorry but are you only reading what you want to? Because I already stated that there are scenes where Pilaf hurts himself.

So what? That's because he was restricting his power at human's level, he was just dissimulating the whole time. No, seriously, I can't believe you try to dismiss my Pilaf = SSJ3+ "theory" based on anything found on the manga. Don't you see it? That "Pilaf" dissimulating was just an excuse like the ones you give, he hurting himself his hand won't stop me of putting another stupid excuse (I already did that) and now what, is the Pilaf SSJ3 theory equally as valid as yours, only because I can come with absurd excuses one after the other?

Pilaf wasn't a SSJ3+ warrior not because he hurt his hands but because there's nothing in the manga that implies he had that kind of power. I know that admitting that is hard for you, because if you do then the dozens of excuses equally not based on the manga that you've given until now become worthless, but hey, that's how things are.

So if it isn't there, it isn't true? Then if Goku gaining 100% of his ki back when turning SSJ isn't there then it isn't true? As I said.

The problem with that affirmation is that Goku gaining his ki is clearly there. Goku regains his ki, that's not even subject to debate (well, it is if you come with excuses). I mean, you can't possibly affirm that Goku was as weakened in chapter 325 as he was in chapter 318.
So, those are solid facts that unlike my Pilaf SSJ3 theory are there:
1. Goku regained his strength.
2. We know that transforming into a SSJ by itself doesn't heal anyone, nor recovers anyone's stamina/ki.
3. We know that a certain feeling (call it rage boost, call it whatever you want) increases the user's power. Yes, Gohan is the one suffering this kind of power ups normally, but it's also impossible to deny that Goku reacted just like Gohan reacts when he enrages. He had the same feeling as Gohan normally has on those cases.
4. Every single time that someone has had this feeling, he gained much more strength than he ever had. That alone would be enough, but we even have some feats that proof that in this case. Goku dodged 100% Freezer's attack. Yes, a weakened Freezer that at that point was inferior to Goku SSJ, but still a feat previous base Goku wouldn't be able to do.

There is as much evidence for Goku only gaining a portion of his Ki than there is all of it.

No. By two reasons:
Like in Pilaf's case, there has never been a prior case of "partial rage boosts" where the user only regained a portion of his strength. It's just that in this case it's convenient to you to defend it, but you can't draw a parallelism with anything that ever happened on the manga.
And then, if that wasn't enough, we have solid feats like Goku dodging Freezer's attack which wouldn't be possible if Goku wasn't not only as strong as he was before (full condition) but even stronger.

So no, I don't think those stances are comparable unless you give me some FACTS FROM THE MANGA that can support what you say.

The manga never actually states Goku received a rage boost though.

Rage boost is a term that's never used on the manga. But in the manga it's clearly said (by Goku) that he had his power awaken by the anger, and we have actually proof that this was the case. So yes, it was stated in the manga that the anger awoke Goku's power, I even gave direct quotes of the manga that confirm that in my last message.

Which isn't true because the evidence you provided to me was incorrect, Gohan never said he couldn't move. He said he couldn't because it hurt.

Of course it hurt, he was injured. Goku also says that to Krilin after he threw the Genkidama, does that mean that he was at full condition on that point? Gohan couldn't stand up by himself, that's the fact. And he stands up only after the rage gives him enough power to do so (or wasn't Gohan as injured when he enrages than he was just a seconds before when he told Goku that he couldn't stand up?).

What you imply with your reasoning is that Gohan stood up because the pain left, but it's pretty obvious judging by his reaction that this wasn't the case. He stood up because he enraged, and he regained his strength and even went further than that (far enough to fight against Vegeta).

you couldn't admit that you were wrong or that your assumption was baseless.

Look, seriously. Being baseless is saying "Gohan said that it hurt, so he had his full power because of that" as if there was some rule in the DB manga that says that injuries doesn't affect the user as long as they hurt. Goku says that "I can't move because my whole body hurts" at least once (after throwing the Genkidama) as well.

How can you possibly say that my assumption is baseless? I mean, seriously? So the fact of Gohan being unable to even stand up by himself not only is a proof (because he said it hurt!) but even it's not a good enough point to at least SUSPECT that he was weakened?

Are there any other examples you can provide to back up Gohan gaining a rage boost with no Ki other than this one?

So I need more examples? One is not enough? How many examples do you have of "partial rage boosts"? I won't ask you to give me many examples, JUST ONE.

The direct result of him "not being able to move" was because of the punch to the stomach and the headbutt, correct? I'm not putting words into your mouth.

Yes, you do. That the direct result of him "not being able to move" was the punch to the stomach and the headbutt doesn't mean that the reason he didn't have any ki was the "stomach punch and the headbutt".
If you can't see the difference between saying "Gohan didn't have ki because he wasn't able to stand up after receiving a punch to the stomach and a headbutt" and "Gohan didn't have ki because he received a punch to the stomach and a headbutt" then seriously, I don't know what else I could say.

1. You said Gohan said he couldn't move. I provided you with the line from the Viz translation which says nothing of the sort. I'm happy if it is the actual Japanese translation but I doubt it because otherwise what Goku says after Gohan said he couldn't get up because it hurt too much doesn't make sense. Why would Goku tell Gohan off if Gohan couldn't legitimately move his body?

What's said on my version of the manga:
Goku: You've got a lot more strength (referring to Gohan's rage boosts). It doesn't matter if you don't win, but you have to stop him so Krilin can kill him.
Gohan: No... I can't... I can't move either.

Since the moment Goku sees how Gohan attacked Raditz he has taken advantage of Gohan's rage boosts. Goku knows Gohan has that kind of personality, and that's why he speaks about their dead friends and such.

A few pages before Gohan was also saying he didn't want to fight Vegeta because Vegeta was too strong and I also gave you the Japanese lines straight from the Strength Checker herms provides.

No, he didn't say that he didn't want. He said "I can't father, he's too strong. I won't be able to win". And how does that negate the fact that he can't even move? I mean, Gohan saying "Vegeta was too strong" invalidates his next sentence of "I can't move"?

If Gohan really couldn't fight then why would he be complaining about Vegeta being too strong?

Why wouldn't he? He couldn't even move and Vegeta was too strong. I don't see how that's incompatible at all.

Why don't you try to at least prove ONE OF YOUR POINTS at least for once? I mean, for now it's you just attacking my position without being able to prove a single prove of your excuses, why don't you try to prove it?
You say that Gohan still had plenty of Ki, ok, PROVE IT. The fact that he wasn't able to move points to him not having any ki, but you say he was really close to being at full condition.

Goku even states that Gohan should have enough energy to hold off Vegeta, but not to win.

He also said that Gohan had enough strength to defeat Cell. Goku is counting on the RAGE BOOSTS of Gohan to win, we know that. Everyone counts on Gohan rage boosts (that's why Piccolo decides to train him in fact).

2. I provided you with all of the examples of Gohan getting rage boosts and ignoring the one against Vegeta, because we can't seem to agree on it

We "can't" agree on it not because we have reasons to disagree, but because you'll never admit that you may be wrong. I mean, after the explanation I've seen to justify the 10x increase Toriyama talked about and how he was "in your opinion" talking about the mass of the muscles of his body it's pretty obvious that you're not accommodating your opinions to the manga, but the manga/Toriyama's words to your opinion.

It doesn't matter what's said or written on the manga at that point, there will always be a way to accommodate it to your interests, even when your "interests" are pretty contradictory themselves.

3. I already pointed out that Kuririn had received a much more damaging blow than Gohan's punch to the stomach and a headbutt. Kuririn was literally kicked flying and bounced off of several rock formations.

Aaaahhh, so it's the distance flown and the number of bouncing between rocks that determines damage. Then I suppose that Freezer took more damage from Goku's first clean kick (that one that sends him flying through two islands) than from the Genkidama (where Freezer didn't bounce nor is sent flying through different isles). Look, cut it off, seriously. You aren't able to admit when you are wrong. Period.

You are assuming that Gohan took more damage because he has had one more blow than Kuririn.

No, I was in fact demonstrating how your previous excuse (Gohan only took two blows, so in no way he didn't have a lot of ki) was as baseless as an excuse can be.
I've never pointed to the number of hits (you did), the distance flown after receiving a kick nor the number of bounces between rocks. My stance is pretty simple in fact: "Gohan couldn't stand up by himself which means that he had a really low level of ki at that point". Period, nothing more, and nothing else.
The one coming with excuses and various nonsensical metrics to try to dismiss that affirmation its you, and only you.

But the quality of an attack out-weighs the number of attacks and the quality of the attack on Kuririn clearly out-weighs Gohan's.

While the premise of that sentence is true (one attack may be more fatal than multiple weaker attacks) we are again in front of an absurd affirmation based on nothing. How do you know that Krilin's attack was more fatal than Gohan's multiple attacks? Both of them are left in the ground unable to move for a while.

We are again in front of a "the manga adapts to my opinions" situation. The FACT is that both Gohan and Krilin are unable to move after Vegeta's kick. Why do you think one of them had still a lot of ki and the other one didn't?
Besides that, you're so desperate putting the excuses that you don't even take into account if your new excuses contradict any of the old ones!

So why is it Kuririn can move fine and Gohan can't when Kuririn had a received a much more brutal attack?

Krilin can move fine you say? He is barely able to walk and you say he moved fine? That's out-right lying...

You are making the assumption that the brutal kick Kuririn suffered must not be serious damage because it is one blow less than Gohan's.

So now it's a brutal kick again? I was being ironic when I said that Krilin wasn't seriously damaged because "he only received a hit". It was a way of telling you that your previous excuse (Gohan only took two hits so he couldn't have lost a lot of ki) was nonsense.

Again you are ignoring all of the other examples I provided

What other examples exactly? You just provide point-per-point excuses that contradict even between themselves.

I'm trying to have a debate with you but you are either seemingly avoiding the points I try to raise or mocking me by exaggerating stuff...
Other than this point which has yet to be decided you have no examples. If you are wrong about the Vegeta vs Gohan example then you don't actually have any examples to back up your claim that rage boosts have always happened with little Ki and always recover the entirety of it.

Another goalpost movement for your part, and an example of cynicism. I mean you complain about me exaggerating stuff and then you proceed to put in my mouth that "rage boosts have always happened with little Ki and always recover the entirety of it" (which is a thing I've obviously never said).
Then you also criticize me for "avoiding" your points when your points were just really subjective personal interpretations (I mean like the one where you said that since Gohan said that it hurt to him that meant that he had a lot of power left on him) while I'm still waiting for you to answer to my point of how was Goku able to dodge one of 100% Freezer's attacks in his base form if he was as weakened as you say.

As Vegeta said during the fight with the Ginyu Force the only reason Goku was supressing his Ki and using it in bursts was to conserve his Ki for later fights.

That would be the reason of why was Goku fighting in bursts, not the reason why even when busted he was only at 60.000 and not at 90.000.

Was Yakon on Earth with the intent of blowing it up? I don't see the urgency for Goku to go full out against an opponent he could easily deal with and wasn't trying to destroy his planet at the time.

Goku wasn't in an urgency either. Freezer stated pretty clearly he would wait for Goku to arrive, and even if that hasn't been the case Goku had the instantaneous transmission to get there before Freezer could do anything.

Goku is already aware the risks of using SSJ3 on his day on Earth before he even uses it so he would rather not use it and leave it as a last resort. Like he did against Fat Boo to stall for more time.

How is that preventing Bu's resurrection by killing Vegeta before Bu gathers enough energy not a desperate situation, compared to Goku winning a bit of time?
Goku always prioritized good fights over protecting the earth. He fought against Vegeta at SSJ2 because at SSJ3 he would've easily won, not because of any fears of him consuming his time on earth. In fact, he clearly says that he could've destroyed fat bu but that he pretended to be weaker just to give the kids an opportunity to become stronger.

Raditz scouter readings had Gohan at 710 previous to the rage boost.

No, Gohan's 710 was already a rage boost. It was just a tinnier one, which means that rage boosts vary depending on how angered/desperate one is at a given point. It does make sense to be that way, but Gohan's strength once he isn't angered/desperate is just 1 unit.

The reason Gohan said Trunks had the same Ki was because he was a SSJ. It's established throughout the manga that the transformations have a different Ki signature than the base form. As such a person can tell if a Saiyan is fighting in SSJ or not.

You're again deviating the conversation. Yes, transforming into a SSJ alters someone's ki's signature. Yes, we know that. And then again, if Gohan confused Trunks with Goku and said nothing about him being much stronger, it meant that he wasn't. Period. Otherwise we would know.

Again, the Japanese is very specific in this regard.

Japanese, English or Corean. We are speaking about narrative here. Trunks appeared and Gohan mistook him for his father and said nothing about him being stronger or weaker. That means that the difference was trivial enough not to comment on it, or in other words, Trunks had the same strength than Goku on Namek.

Unless the Japanese specifically talks about Trunk's ki being bigger which would of course change everything. But that's not the case, I presume.

The only thing to confuse him was the Ki type.

Yes, we agree on that. We've agreed on that a lot of times. What confused was Ki type, but Ki size had to be really close otherwise he would've said "father has become really strong!" or "it's the same ki father had on Namek, but much bigger!" pr anything on those lines.

Had size come into it then Gohan would have spotted the difference between a 100% Goku and a 100% Trunks

Wait... what???
Another prime example of the manga being adapted to one's opinion instead of the opinion being adapted to what's on the manga.
So in the manga when someone sensed a ki both type and size were sensed at the same time. It's like if I grab a book and I say "it's rectangular and green", two particularities that are spot at the same time.

And now you're saying me that Gohan, precisely on that case, that he didn't sense the size of Trunk's ki?
Let's see our logical process on that concrete example.
My approach:
Gohan mistakes Trunks for his father saying he have the same ki Goku had on Namek.
That means that Trunk's SSJ ki confused Gohan and that he had to be really close to Goku as well. Remember, same ki than Goku on Namek.

Your approach:
Trunks was much stronger than Goku.
Gohan says Trunks had the same ki Goku had on Namek.
Since Trunks was much stronger than Goku on Namek that means that Gohan wasn't able to sense the size of Trunk's ki, otherwise he would've said they're different.

See the difference. I draw my conclusions AFTER reading the manga. You have already drawn your conclusions even before taking into account what's said in the manga.

That is pretty offensive considering you were the one who tried to base Gohan not being able to fight on a statement that I can only assume wasn't even correctly translated. You are also making assumptions based on what a character could be thinking even if it isn't written. Gohan never pertains to the size of Trunks' Ki compared to his fathers

Gohan says Trunks had the same ki Goku had on Namek. It's you that say that in fact he was only referring to the type of ki, but that the difference in size was really big.
I mean, imagine Ki are vehicles. So if someone says "look that's my brother's car right there" and then it turns not to be his car, I'll assume that both colour, size and shape are really close between the two cars.
On the other hand, you say: "No, he didn't specifically speak about the size nor the shape. In that case he was speaking only for the colour, and he confused a 15-ton trailer and his brother's car because they were both red".

And speaking of what's offensive, you coming with excuses is also pretty offensive, because it's a way to tell me you're here not to discuss but to impose your vision of the series.

None of my assumptions have been contradictory.

No? Are you sure about that? Because I remember a "Krilin received a fatal kick which wasn't the case of Gohan" that then became a "Krilin could move perfectly fine". And that's just the first example that has come to my mind.

Goku has shown to have stamina several times throughout the manga while not having all of his full power. A perfect example is his fight with Tambourine.

That's your first legitimately good point. Yes, that scene proves that it's possible to be drawn without evident signs of lacking stamina while still being really short of ki. I was wrong about that.

Are you going to tell me that during the whole fight Goku didn't lose an ounce of Ki even though 100% Freeza got in a good deal of punches and his huffing and puffing was all fake?

I said visible signs of lack of ki, not only huffing and puffing. Huffing and puffing is something that only lasts just after a great effort or injury is taken. And yes, Goku lost some Ki during the 5 minutes he fought against 100% Freezer, it happens that:
1. He got a second re-enragement after Freezer mocks Krilin's death (so he could've been restored there for a second time).
2. 2-3 minutes of fighting with someone at his same level won't let Goku tired enough for him to lose a lot of ki.

He may have gained back a portion during the transformation to make it more even.

I love that. I mean, is there a way to not read this like "there's no way he could've gained it all back. He (at best) may have gained back a portion, but not because the manga said so, just the tiny bit necessary to make it more even considering the power my objective-unquestionable vision of the manga gives them."

In between, these writers do not consider how much more a fighter gets damaged, less Ki the fighter has, and with this the fighter is less strong.

I completely agree with this. It's just a bad analyse made by people that had to write a guide to make some quick money.

There isn't such a page, and I never said that this is a fact. It's my personal interpretation of what's going on: Goku could barely stand, he transforms, and he has enough power to stand up. This never happens after transforming again, so the only logical (for me) conclusion is this.

And why is not logical that seeing how Goku enrages, and how those kind of "enragements" are always accompanied with an increase in ki, to reach the conclusion that was it the feeling that gave him the strength and not the transformation by itself.
Why would that transformation have any special properties the first time and not the other ones? Why is that more logical than my stance, may I ask? Because as you've said, you're not basing this on anything specific...

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

Well but wouldn't that in fact state the opposite? I mean, Goku had a tranquil heart that was awakened through intense rage. And listening to that, Freezer says "that's why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried". To me, that's Freezer saying that Vegeta didn't have a tranquil heart, not that he had one.

Gohan's rage makes him stronger without transforming.

But when Goku tried to show Gohan how to turn into a SSJ, he told him he had to anger because the trigger of the transformation was the rage. It's not like there are multiple kinds of rages, it's just that if you happen to enrage when you are strong enough, you jump into the next stage. In other words, if Gohan had been strong enough when Raditz appeared, he would've trasnsformed into a SSJ instead of just increasing his strength. That's why Goku tells Gohan "imagine that Cell kills Piccolo or Krilin" in order to help him transform.

He was in the middle of the transformation.

And also in the middle of the enragment. But unlike the enragments, transformations have never restored anyone's ki.

When about to fight Nappa, Goku got angry and powered up, but it's doubtful anyone would call that a "rage boost."

That's because it wasn't the same kind of rage/feeling. Goku was still pretty calm minded when fighting Nappa, he was just angry. Like you said, Gohan was an insecure kid who didn't want to fight and that kind of personality made him prone to that kind of feelings, but that doesn't mean that the other characters, under more extreme conditions, couldn't feel the same as him.

As for 100% Freeza, I doubt Toriyama thought Freeza would be much stronger, if it wasn't for his injuries.

It's been happening during the whole series.

Freeza repeatedly claimed he was using 100% of his power/full power and if he really would have been much stronger without injuries, it's really bad writing not to have this explicitly pointed out to the reader.

Why? At that point it's a pretty established rule that injuries make the injured weaker. And to add to this, Freezer talks about him having lost a lot of strength at least twice.

As for training increases... Super Saiyan is a power amplifier. It takes whatever your base power is and multiplies it by 50, and that doesn't change. If you train in your base state and gain 10 points, then that becomes 500 points when you go Super Saiyan. If you train in Super Saiyan and gain 500 points, then vice-versa your base will be 10 points stronger.

And with that approach you contradict the manga in several points. In the manga it's pretty clear that what evolves is the SSJ transformation, and what stays stalled is the base form power (that reaches a limit that can't be surpassed).

The Freezer against Freezer only forces the SSJ to be an x50 if you erase the 3 chapters in which Goku throws a Genkidama to Freezer nearly killing him in the process.

We could very easily say that both Goku AND Freeza got their full strength back when respectively going SSJ / powering up to 100%.

But that would be an excuse, because there has never been an example of anyone restoring his lost ki just because he started to fight hiding part of his strength. And to make things worse we happen to have the concrete example of Cell doing the same against Goku. Cell also fought Goku while hiding part of his power (he didn't give any percentage, but he wasn't fighting goku at his 100%), and Cell could do anything that Freezer could.
So if Freezer could restore any lost power to Cell, why did Goku had to give Cell a senzu bean if he had that kind of ability?
Freezer didn't restore any of his power only by powering up to 100%. Every character that can control his ki has to power up at one point if he starts to fight seriously, and we've never seen any kind of magical energy healing like that.

Goku's anger put him at his base-form peak and because of him being at his base form peak and being enraged, he transformed. Freezer just went from being injured and fighting at his 50% to being injured and fighting at his 100%. Why would Freezer regain any of his strength?

Yep, that seems like the simplest and easiest way to go about.

I don't think so.

"One hundred percent" means "one hundred percent" unless we're told otherwise, plain and simple.

The problem is that "one hundred percent" is not a fixed number, but only a percentage that has to be interpreted in its context. One hundred per cent in that case was compared to his available strength at that moment, because he had been fighting only with half his available strength up until then.
So he was using the 100% of his available strength that at that point, due to the injuries, was far from being the 100% of his normal strength.

[Darkprince410]

Goku's anger put him at his base-form peak and because of him being at his base form peak and being enraged, he transformed. Freezer just went from being injured and fighting at his 50% to being injured and fighting at his 100%. Why would Freezer regain any of his strength?

Where do you get the notion that the anger pushed his ki back up to his maximum base form at the time? What's far, far more likely is that it pushed him to his maximum after all the damage he had received from Freeza up to that point. Goku was battered, worn down, and barely able to stand (not to mention that he was close enough to the Genki Dama that he potentially took some damage from that as well), and even if he had his ki reserves restored, it'd only be up to what his body could hold while in its weakened state, and the transformation would increase his strength in relation to that. You keep making suggestions like it completely restored him to 100% or things like that, when I'm not seeing a single thing to suggest that at all. Even in Gohan's case, where actual "rage boosts" occur (he's still the only character to actually have what one would consider a rage boost), he's still going to be affected by any damage he had taken up to that point. It's not like it miraculously restores him to 100% and pushes him beyond, in turn negating all damage. He's still going to contend with his weakened physical condition.

For all intents and purposes, they could have both lost the same proportional amount of strength as a result of their respective damage (Freeza beating Goku around while at 50% full power, and Goku dealing a fair amount of damage to Freeza with the Genki Dama), and thus when Goku transformed, it still needed a 50x boost to get him to a level to where he could fight Freeza's 100% full power at that point.

[Cursed Lemon]

But that would be an excuse, because there has never been an example of anyone restoring his lost ki just because he started to fight hiding part of his strength. And to make things worse we happen to have the concrete example of Cell doing the same against Goku. Cell also fought Goku while hiding part of his power (he didn't give any percentage, but he wasn't fighting goku at his 100%), and Cell could do anything that Freezer could.
So if Freezer could restore any lost power to Cell, why did Goku had to give Cell a senzu bean if he had that kind of ability?
Freezer didn't restore any of his power only by powering up to 100%. Every character that can control his ki has to power up at one point if he starts to fight seriously, and we've never seen any kind of magical energy healing like that.

Goku's anger put him at his base-form peak and because of him being at his base form peak and being enraged, he transformed. Freezer just went from being injured and fighting at his 50% to being injured and fighting at his 100%. Why would Freezer regain any of his strength?

Great!

So Freeza and Goku were both not 100%, glad we cleared this up.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And why is not logical that seeing how Goku enrages, and how those kind of "enragements" are always accompanied with an increase in ki, to reach the conclusion that was it the feeling that gave him the strength and not the transformation by itself.

Because it has never happened before or after that for any other character except for Gohan. How many times do I have to repeat this?

Why would that transformation have any special properties the first time and not the other ones? Why is that more logical than my stance, may I ask? Because as you've said, you're not basing this on anything specific...

Because it's the first time. I don't need to give any other reason.

Well but wouldn't that in fact state the opposite? I mean, Goku had a tranquil heart that was awakened through intense rage. And listening to that, Freezer says "that's why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried". To me, that's Freezer saying that Vegeta didn't have a tranquil heart, not that he had one.

When did I say that Vegeta had a tranquil heart? You were asking why didn't Vegeta transform on Namek even though he was both angry and strong enough to transform, and I answered that the reason was because he didn't have a tranquil heart, which is another requirement to transform.

But when Goku tried to show Gohan how to turn into a SSJ, he told him he had to anger because the trigger of the transformation was the rage. It's not like there are multiple kinds of rages, it's just that if you happen to enrage when you are strong enough, you jump into the next stage. In other words, if Gohan had been strong enough when Raditz appeared, he would've trasnsformed into a SSJ instead of just increasing his strength. That's why Goku tells Gohan "imagine that Cell kills Piccolo or Krilin" in order to help him transform.

Again, Goku says that the anger triggers the transformation, which is true. He never said that when he gets angry, he gets stronger without transforming.

And also in the middle of the enragment. But unlike the enragments, transformations have never restored anyone's ki.

Show me one example of anyone that isn't Gohan that restored/increased his power with his rage, and without transforming.

[Hitiro]

When was it ever stated that Freeza was impressed with Vegeta's strength and it was reason enough to destroy Planet Vegeta? I thought it was only ever implied that he destroyed Planet Vegeta because he was afraid a Saiyan, in general, would get strong enough to fight with him.

In fact, Freezer wasn't afraid of ONE sayan, he was afraid about the whole sayan race because they were turning stronger and stronger and he feared that one day they would all turn against him.
Vegeta being the trigger of Freezer's decision is implied on the manga by that fact (Freezer being afraid of the sayans becoming stronger and Vegeta being much stronger than any Sayan known until then) and then it was clearly stated in Bardock's original OVA (and since it was canonized by Toriyama himself, I consider it the only non-manga valid material).

My point was Freeza never stated it as you pointed out. It being implied doesn't make it fact, it is subjective. Vegeta may have been the strongest Saiyan but Freeza may have come to fear the Saiyan's because "collectively" they were growing much stronger even compared to his own elite troops. In my opinion I don't think Vegeta was the trigger. If you want to include the Bardock special in this then it was actually Bardock's team which was the trigger because they were considered low class yet they were taking out planets that Freeza's own elite troops were having trouble with.

I'm sorry but are you only reading what you want to? Because I already stated that there are scenes where Pilaf hurts himself.

So what? That's because he was restricting his power at human's level, he was just dissimulating the whole time. No, seriously, I can't believe you try to dismiss my Pilaf = SSJ3+ "theory" based on anything found on the manga. Don't you see it? That "Pilaf" dissimulating was just an excuse like the ones you give, he hurting himself his hand won't stop me of putting another stupid excuse (I already did that) and now what, is the Pilaf SSJ3 theory equally as valid as yours, only because I can come with absurd excuses one after the other?

Pilaf wasn't a SSJ3+ warrior not because he hurt his hands but because there's nothing in the manga that implies he had that kind of power. I know that admitting that is hard for you, because if you do then the dozens of excuses equally not based on the manga that you've given until now become worthless, but hey, that's how things are.

So feats are less than implications now? I haven't given any absurd excuses here. They are all pretty valid. You are the only one who thinks they aren't here.

So if it isn't there, it isn't true? Then if Goku gaining 100% of his ki back when turning SSJ isn't there then it isn't true? As I said.

The problem with that affirmation is that Goku gaining his ki is clearly there. Goku regains his ki, that's not even subject to debate (well, it is if you come with excuses). I mean, you can't possibly affirm that Goku was as weakened in chapter 325 as he was in chapter 318.
So, those are solid facts that unlike my Pilaf SSJ3 theory are there:
1. Goku regained his strength.
2. We know that transforming into a SSJ by itself doesn't heal anyone, nor recovers anyone's stamina/ki.
3. We know that a certain feeling (call it rage boost, call it whatever you want) increases the user's power. Yes, Gohan is the one suffering this kind of power ups normally, but it's also impossible to deny that Goku reacted just like Gohan reacts when he enrages. He had the same feeling as Gohan normally has on those cases.
4. Every single time that someone has had this feeling, he gained much more strength than he ever had. That alone would be enough, but we even have some feats that proof that in this case. Goku dodged 100% Freezer's attack. Yes, a weakened Freezer that at that point was inferior to Goku SSJ, but still a feat previous base Goku wouldn't be able to do.

1. Goku did regain strength, but it is unclear as to how much.
2. There are a group of people that think the initial SSJ transformation is kind of like a adrenaline rush which allows him to go further than he should. Don't see why that isn't a valid opinion over rage boosts.
3. Gohan is the only character to actually be stated to receive these though. Other than the BoG movie where Vegeta is stated to get one there is no other examples other than Gohan's that can be proven. And Gohan is a special case from all other Saiyan's with his absurd hidden power.
4. Every single time that someone has had this feeling they have gained much more strength then they ever had? Can you show me an example of a character other than Gohan? Goku and Vegeta get mad a few times in the manga but nothing is ever stated about their battle powers increasing unlike Gohan. You could say it is implied but then that wouldn't be an example, just an opinion.

There is as much evidence for Goku only gaining a portion of his Ki than there is all of it.

No. By two reasons:
Like in Pilaf's case, there has never been a prior case of "partial rage boosts" where the user only regained a portion of his strength. It's just that in this case it's convenient to you to defend it, but you can't draw a parallelism with anything that ever happened on the manga.
And then, if that wasn't enough, we have solid feats like Goku dodging Freezer's attack which wouldn't be possible if Goku wasn't not only as strong as he was before (full condition) but even stronger.

So no, I don't think those stances are comparable unless you give me some FACTS FROM THE MANGA that can support what you say.

There have been no cases stated, other than Gohan's, where there have been rage boosts. Goku and Vegeta could simply be considered as getting angry and having no boosts. You can't prove to me they boosted as it is never stated. We always get active feedback from the other characters when Gohan receives rage boosts. And in BoG we also get proof that Vegeta rage boost against Beerus. But other than this single instance there is no proof that Goku or Vegeta undergo any in the actual manga. And Gohan has always had a considerable amount of Ki when doing the rage boost.

Goku dodging what? Freeza's Kienzan? As I said before. Goku simply turned around and the Kienzan missed. It wasn't a dodging feat.

The manga never actually states Goku received a rage boost though.

Rage boost is a term that's never used on the manga. But in the manga it's clearly said (by Goku) that he had his power awaken by the anger, and we have actually proof that this was the case. So yes, it was stated in the manga that the anger awoke Goku's power, I even gave direct quotes of the manga that confirm that in my last message.

Rage doesn't mean rage boost though. The rage awoke the transformation. It never suggested a boost in base Goku's strength.

Which isn't true because the evidence you provided to me was incorrect, Gohan never said he couldn't move. He said he couldn't because it hurt.

Of course it hurt, he was injured. Goku also says that to Krilin after he threw the Genkidama, does that mean that he was at full condition on that point? Gohan couldn't stand up by himself, that's the fact. And he stands up only after the rage gives him enough power to do so (or wasn't Gohan as injured when he enrages than he was just a seconds before when he told Goku that he couldn't stand up?).

Actually, Goku states he can't move. Unlike Gohan who only says he can't move because it hurts. And because he considers Vegeta too strong.

Chapter: 236 (DBZ 42), P7.5, P8.1-4
Goku: “Gohan…dad’s body is messed up. I can’t move anymore. You have to fight for me instead. [Vegeta's] power should have fallen a whole lot.”
Gohan: “He’s strong. He’s too strong. I…I can’t win.”
Goku: “You…You don’t have to win. Just hold him off. Your power ought to be even more incredible than this…even more.”

What you imply with your reasoning is that Gohan stood up because the pain left, but it's pretty obvious judging by his reaction that this wasn't the case. He stood up because he enraged, and he regained his strength and even went further than that (far enough to fight against Vegeta).

No, what I imply is that Gohan stood up because he got angry enough to ignore the pain and try to fight anyway. Goku already stated Gohan should be able to hold off Vegeta, even without any sort of "rage boost." So I don't see why you are in contention when the manga basically states that Gohan can still hold off Vegeta even though he received the punch and the headbutt.

you couldn't admit that you were wrong or that your assumption was baseless.

Look, seriously. Being baseless is saying "Gohan said that it hurt, so he had his full power because of that" as if there was some rule in the DB manga that says that injuries doesn't affect the user as long as they hurt. Goku says that "I can't move because my whole body hurts" at least once (after throwing the Genkidama) as well.

Did I say Gohan had his full power? I said he had a good amount of it left. Not he was at full power. It is obvious that some damage is going to lower his battle power a bit. But not to the point where he was like Goku on Namek. He could well have 75% of his power left for all we know. As I said, Goku already stated Gohan could hold off Vegeta and that Gohan's ki was sizeable enough to do the job.

How can you possibly say that my assumption is baseless? I mean, seriously? So the fact of Gohan being unable to even stand up by himself not only is a proof (because he said it hurt!) but even it's not a good enough point to at least SUSPECT that he was weakened?

Your assumption is baseless because Gohan had already convinced the audience he was too afraid to fight Vegeta because he was too strong. Why would he say that initially if he couldn't fight? It hurts to move because he did take two blows. That doesn't mean he can't stand up. As was already pointed out he was afraid of fighting Vegeta because he thought he was too strong. The reason he wouldn't get up is simply that. I don't see why you are ignoring this reason for him not getting up.

Are there any other examples you can provide to back up Gohan gaining a rage boost with no Ki other than this one?

So I need more examples? One is not enough? How many examples do you have of "partial rage boosts"? I won't ask you to give me many examples, JUST ONE.

I'm asking you to give me more examples because it seems we can't agree on the Gohan vs. Vegeta fight because you keep thinking he is severely weakened from two blows. If you can provide me with an example other than this one to support your claim then I'm all for it.

The direct result of him "not being able to move" was because of the punch to the stomach and the headbutt, correct? I'm not putting words into your mouth.

Yes, you do. That the direct result of him "not being able to move" was the punch to the stomach and the headbutt doesn't mean that the reason he didn't have any ki was the "stomach punch and the headbutt".
If you can't see the difference between saying "Gohan didn't have ki because he wasn't able to stand up after receiving a punch to the stomach and a headbutt" and "Gohan didn't have ki because he received a punch to the stomach and a headbutt" then seriously, I don't know what else I could say.

So you are assuming the fact that the lack of Ki is the reason he can't move and not the blows themselves? Fair enough. That still doesn't prove your point because as I said in my last post. Which you continue to ignore, Kuririn received a much more hefty attack than Gohan's. Yet Kuririn could move fine. Ask anybody in this thread and I can guarantee you that Kuririn came off with the most damage. So why is it Kuririn, who is weaker than Gohan, can take a significantly worse attack and still have Ki to move around?

1. You said Gohan said he couldn't move. I provided you with the line from the Viz translation which says nothing of the sort. I'm happy if it is the actual Japanese translation but I doubt it because otherwise what Goku says after Gohan said he couldn't get up because it hurt too much doesn't make sense. Why would Goku tell Gohan off if Gohan couldn't legitimately move his body?

What's said on my version of the manga:
Goku: You've got a lot more strength (referring to Gohan's rage boosts). It doesn't matter if you don't win, but you have to stop him so Krilin can kill him.
Gohan: No... I can't... I can't move either.

Well your translation is incorrect. I don't know where you got your version of the manga but Gohan never says he can't move.

Chapter: 236 (DBZ 42), P7.5, P8.1-4
Goku: “Gohan…dad’s body is messed up. I can’t move anymore. You have to fight for me instead. [Vegeta's] power should have fallen a whole lot.”
Gohan: “He’s strong. He’s too strong. I…I can’t win.”
Goku: “You…You don’t have to win. Just hold him off. Your power ought to be even more incredible than this…even more.”

This is the direct translation from Herms. When Goku asks Gohan to fight for him Gohan never complains about not being able to move. Just that Vegeta is too strong for him to win against. If Gohan couldn't stand, then why would he even say that? Why not just tell Goku he couldn't move anymore as well?

Since the moment Goku sees how Gohan attacked Raditz he has taken advantage of Gohan's rage boosts. Goku knows Gohan has that kind of personality, and that's why he speaks about their dead friends and such.

Goku actually calls him a coward for not trying actually. So I don't think it was to enrage him. He would have worded it a lot better if he was trying to rile Gohan up.

A few pages before Gohan was also saying he didn't want to fight Vegeta because Vegeta was too strong and I also gave you the Japanese lines straight from the Strength Checker herms provides.

No, he didn't say that he didn't want. He said "I can't father, he's too strong. I won't be able to win". And how does that negate the fact that he can't even move? I mean, Gohan saying "Vegeta was too strong" invalidates his next sentence of "I can't move"?

Again, Gohan never says he couldn't fight. If it were the case he would have told his father that he couldn't fight anymore? Did he? No. He just said he wouldn't be able to win. Gohan never says anything about not being able to fight him. Only you are trying to make it sound like he is saying that by saying he said he couldn't move. Which is never said.

If Gohan really couldn't fight then why would he be complaining about Vegeta being too strong?

Why wouldn't he? He couldn't even move and Vegeta was too strong. I don't see how that's incompatible at all.

Again, in the manga it never says he couldn't move. Only that it hurts to move. You're the one telling me he can't move because he has no Ki.

Why don't you try to at least prove ONE OF YOUR POINTS at least for once? I mean, for now it's you just attacking my position without being able to prove a single prove of your excuses, why don't you try to prove it?
You say that Gohan still had plenty of Ki, ok, PROVE IT. The fact that he wasn't able to move points to him not having any ki, but you say he was really close to being at full condition.

I have proved it. Several times already. You just ignore what I have to say because it doesn't fit with your opinion.

1. Gohan is scared to fight Vegeta, that is pretty much evident. When Goku asks him to fight he says he can't because Vegeta is too strong. Gohan never says anything about not being able to attempt to fight. Only that he can't fight Vegeta because Vegeta is too strong. Which is basically him saying he doesn't want to because Vegeta is too strong.

2. Gohan says it hurts too much for him to move. Not that he was incapable of moving. In fact, if he was incapable of moving then why would it hurt? And if it was due to his Ki being too low then why is he on about pain rather than simply saying he hasn't got the energy to move? It was purely from a pain standpoint. Unless you can prove to me that it was Ki which was the problem then Gohan more than likely still has a healthy reserve of it. Kuririn did even though he suffered much more damage than Gohan. If it simply hurt for him to try and move then where does him having little Ki come into this?

3. Kuririn suffered a worse blow than Gohan's two blows combined. Yet Kuririn is fine enough to walk over to Goku and scale a rock formation to launch the Genki Dama. And the majority of the thread will most likely agree with me about that. You just assume Gohan had it worse than Kuririn because of the quantity of the blows rather than the quality.

Goku even states that Gohan should have enough energy to hold off Vegeta, but not to win.

He also said that Gohan had enough strength to defeat Cell. Goku is counting on the RAGE BOOSTS of Gohan to win, we know that. Everyone counts on Gohan rage boosts (that's why Piccolo decides to train him in fact).

Goku acknowledged Gohan was stronger than him even without rage boosts. And we see in the Majin Boo arc that a SSJ Gohan is able to fight on par with a Perfect Cell like opponent without rage boosts. A rage boost would be icing on the cake but Goku thought that Gohan was capable without one.

2. I provided you with all of the examples of Gohan getting rage boosts and ignoring the one against Vegeta, because we can't seem to agree on it

We "can't" agree on it not because we have reasons to disagree, but because you'll never admit that you may be wrong. I mean, after the explanation I've seen to justify the 10x increase Toriyama talked about and how he was "in your opinion" talking about the mass of the muscles of his body it's pretty obvious that you're not accommodating your opinions to the manga, but the manga/Toriyama's words to your opinion.

You have me mixed up with someone else. I never said anything about the 10x being about muscle mass. Toriyama thought that 50x was too massive an increase. It is highly possible he forgot that Goku was using KK at the time and that the KK was Goku's maximum so he thought what was being implied was 50x the KKx20(Goku's maximum). And thus said 10x sounds more reasonable.

It doesn't matter what's said or written on the manga at that point, there will always be a way to accommodate it to your interests, even when your "interests" are pretty contradictory themselves.

Again you are saying my points are contradictory. I find that offensive when it isn't true.

3. I already pointed out that Kuririn had received a much more damaging blow than Gohan's punch to the stomach and a headbutt. Kuririn was literally kicked flying and bounced off of several rock formations.

Aaaahhh, so it's the distance flown and the number of bouncing between rocks that determines damage. Then I suppose that Freezer took more damage from Goku's first clean kick (that one that sends him flying through two islands) than from the Genkidama (where Freezer didn't bounce nor is sent flying through different isles). Look, cut it off, seriously. You aren't able to admit when you are wrong. Period.

That kick would have been impressive if Goku was actually the stronger individual in the fight. I think it's you who aren't able to admit when you are wrong. Again. Ask anyone in this thread whether the kick Kuririn suffered was worse than the two blows Gohan received and you'll see the majority will think the kick was worse.

You are assuming that Gohan took more damage because he has had one more blow than Kuririn.

No, I was in fact demonstrating how your previous excuse (Gohan only took two blows, so in no way he didn't have a lot of ki) was as baseless as an excuse can be.
I've never pointed to the number of hits (you did), the distance flown after receiving a kick nor the number of bounces between rocks. My stance is pretty simple in fact: "Gohan couldn't stand up by himself which means that he had a really low level of ki at that point". Period, nothing more, and nothing else.
The one coming with excuses and various nonsensical metrics to try to dismiss that affirmation its you, and only you.

I'm sorry, but it is not an excuse. You have been trash talking my opinion and the stuff I brought up for the last week or so because you can't admit that things other than your opinion might be possible. I have said several times in my other posts about you having some valid theories. Yet you are the one who can't admit that my theories are just as possible. I am aware that it is possible that two blows can reduce your Ki to a low amount. By point with the two blows, as I said in several of my posts, is that the blows were nowhere as severe as others. And yes, you did point to the number of hits actually.

Krilin was reduced to 0 with a single hit in his face, and Gohan that was at Krilin's level or even lower wouldn't be the same you say?

Apparently Kuririn was reduced to 0 with a single hit (which isn't true because Kuririn got up when Gohan started fighting and went to Goku. He then successfully scaled a rock formation to launch the Genki Dama.) so Gohan being around the same level as Kuririn must be worse off because he took two blows? That is what it seems like you are saying here. It may not be. But those two blows weren't worse than the single blow Kuririn took. Vegeta was toying with Gohan and goading him. If his intent was to reduce his Ki to near 0 he would have just got it done and out of the way. Not try and make Gohan fight him.

But the quality of an attack out-weighs the number of attacks and the quality of the attack on Kuririn clearly out-weighs Gohan's.

While the premise of that sentence is true (one attack may be more fatal than multiple weaker attacks) we are again in front of an absurd affirmation based on nothing. How do you know that Krilin's attack was more fatal than Gohan's multiple attacks? Both of them are left in the ground unable to move for a while.

We are again in front of a "the manga adapts to my opinions" situation. The FACT is that both Gohan and Krilin are unable to move after Vegeta's kick. Why do you think one of them had still a lot of ki and the other one didn't?
Besides that, you're so desperate putting the excuses that you don't even take into account if your new excuses contradict any of the old ones!

You can tell from the page that Kuririn's attack was more brutal. And with the fact that Vegeta is trying to get Gohan to fight him while attacking him. This is what he says after the punch to the stomach.

Vegeta: "What's wrong? You're half Saiyan aren't you boy? Show me your power, come on!"

Then he kicks Kuririn and says.

Vegeta: "Heh. I guess he wanted to be first." < Implying he has already done enough damage to deal with him.

And then he goes back to Gohan and says.

Vegeta: "Get up! Let me have some fun. Is that your best? Ha! Like Father, like Son."

Stepping on him while he is hunched over cowering. Before headbutting him and chucking him next to his Father.

Seems like Vegeta was pulling his punches to me with the exception of Kuririn.

So why is it Kuririn can move fine and Gohan can't when Kuririn had a received a much more brutal attack?

Krilin can move fine you say? He is barely able to walk and you say he moved fine? That's out-right lying...

Spoiler:

If I'm lying then what is this? He clearly jumps over 20 ft to get into position to launch the Genki Dama.

You are making the assumption that the brutal kick Kuririn suffered must not be serious damage because it is one blow less than Gohan's.

So now it's a brutal kick again? I was being ironic when I said that Krilin wasn't seriously damaged because "he only received a hit". It was a way of telling you that your previous excuse (Gohan only took two hits so he couldn't have lost a lot of ki) was nonsense.

It isn't non-sense when Vegeta is pulling his punches because he wants to try and get Gohan to fight him.

Again you are ignoring all of the other examples I provided

What other examples exactly? You just provide point-per-point excuses that contradict even between themselves.

Again could you refrain from the offensive remarks. My points are as valid as yours or anybody else's. Just because you don't see their value doesn't give you the right to belittle my opinion by calling them excuses. And again, non of them contradict each other. I really don't see why you think that.

I'm trying to have a debate with you but you are either seemingly avoiding the points I try to raise or mocking me by exaggerating stuff...
Other than this point which has yet to be decided you have no examples. If you are wrong about the Vegeta vs Gohan example then you don't actually have any examples to back up your claim that rage boosts have always happened with little Ki and always recover the entirety of it.

Another goalpost movement for your part, and an example of cynicism. I mean you complain about me exaggerating stuff and then you proceed to put in my mouth that "rage boosts have always happened with little Ki and always recover the entirety of it" (which is a thing I've obviously never said).

I apologise for sticking you with the "little Ki" argument. I thought that was what you were implying. Regardless you can't point to it recovering all of your Ki if there hasn't been a case like Goku's. Which there hasn't. Because Goku's case is unique. It has not happened before. And there is no way to judge whether all rage boosts have put their characters back to full Ki from a small amount of Ki unless it has happened and been proven. Which it has not.

Then you also criticize me for "avoiding" your points when your points were just really subjective personal interpretations (I mean like the one where you said that since Gohan said that it hurt to him that meant that he had a lot of power left on him) while I'm still waiting for you to answer to my point of how was Goku able to dodge one of 100% Freezer's attacks in his base form if he was as weakened as you say.

My points were about Kuririn still having plenty of Ki and been able to move decently even after that brutal kick from Vegeta. You've been ignoring that point up until this point. There is nothing to prove that Gohan lost all his Ki in those two blows. He is merely not getting up due to the pain. And it never states that he couldn't get up otherwise. Powering through the pain he more than likely could stand up and fight. He never says he is out of energy or that he couldn't move his body. So I don't see why you still believe he must not be getting up because he has no Ki left.

As Vegeta said during the fight with the Ginyu Force the only reason Goku was supressing his Ki and using it in bursts was to conserve his Ki for later fights.

That would be the reason of why was Goku fighting in bursts, not the reason why even when busted he was only at 60.000 and not at 90.000.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. Why would he need the 100%? Again, as Vegeta made quite clear, Goku was using his Ki in bursts to conserve his Ki for later fights. Why burst to 90,000 and waste more Ki than necessary dealing with an opponent that isn't an issue? Even though I don't know how you could possibly know he was only using 60,000 when he was bursting because it is never stated or implied. But if he was using merely 60,000 it would fall under Ki conservation. It wasn't like Recoome was posing any danger like blowing up the planet or anything so there would be no reason for him to go all out.

Was Yakon on Earth with the intent of blowing it up? I don't see the urgency for Goku to go full out against an opponent he could easily deal with and wasn't trying to destroy his planet at the time.

Goku wasn't in an urgency either. Freezer stated pretty clearly he would wait for Goku to arrive, and even if that hasn't been the case Goku had the instantaneous transmission to get there before Freezer could do anything.

Goku was going to do something, he said to Trunks that he was about to Teleport but didn't because he sensed Trunks. There is nothing to say Goku wouldn't have teleported and whipped out his maximum to finish Freeza off quickly just in case he did pull a fast one and try to destroy the planet. And more than likely that would be how it would have turned out.

Goku is already aware the risks of using SSJ3 on his day on Earth before he even uses it so he would rather not use it and leave it as a last resort. Like he did against Fat Boo to stall for more time.

How is that preventing Bu's resurrection by killing Vegeta before Bu gathers enough energy not a desperate situation, compared to Goku winning a bit of time?
Goku always prioritized good fights over protecting the earth. He fought against Vegeta at SSJ2 because at SSJ3 he would've easily won, not because of any fears of him consuming his time on earth. In fact, he clearly says that he could've destroyed fat bu but that he pretended to be weaker just to give the kids an opportunity to become stronger.

You know yourself that Goku was not supposed to be there solving problems when he was dead. Otherwise he would have finished off Boo when he had the chance. Not to mention he didn't want to hurt Vegeta's pride by showing he was much stronger. Also, how can you guarantee that Goku defeating Vegeta at SSJ3 wouldn't have released Boo? And I don't see how the transformation falls under suppression. It's a different category in my eyes. Goku wasn't holding back in any other regard. He was still fighting Vegeta all out.

Raditz scouter readings had Gohan at 710 previous to the rage boost.

No, Gohan's 710 was already a rage boost. It was just a tinnier one, which means that rage boosts vary depending on how angered/desperate one is at a given point. It does make sense to be that way, but Gohan's strength once he isn't angered/desperate is just 1 unit.

Gohan was crying, he wasn't angered. Unless you think that crying to go back home is considered a rage boost. When has someone ever had a rage boost on top of another rage boost? Gohan's strength fluctuates with his emotions but the 710 was not an anger boost by any stretch.

The reason Gohan said Trunks had the same Ki was because he was a SSJ. It's established throughout the manga that the transformations have a different Ki signature than the base form. As such a person can tell if a Saiyan is fighting in SSJ or not.

You're again deviating the conversation. Yes, transforming into a SSJ alters someone's ki's signature. Yes, we know that. And then again, if Gohan confused Trunks with Goku and said nothing about him being much stronger, it meant that he wasn't. Period. Otherwise we would know.

If Gohan said nothing about him being stronger than Namek Goku it can easily be attributed to Gohan thinking SSJ Trunks was SSJ Goku at 100%. Nothing is stated he didn't think that so we can also look at it from that standpoint. Your opinion isn't the only one that is possible. This is open to interpretation and you can't go saying my interpretation is wrong without the manga explicitly stating both SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku have the same Ki amount.

Again, the Japanese is very specific in this regard.

Japanese, English or Corean. We are speaking about narrative here. Trunks appeared and Gohan mistook him for his father and said nothing about him being stronger or weaker. That means that the difference was trivial enough not to comment on it, or in other words, Trunks had the same strength than Goku on Namek.

The difference doesn't have to be trivial. Gohan can simply assume Goku was not at his best on planet Namek, which is a perfectly logical assumption given Goku was pretty beat up by Freeza, and didn't comment on it. Like you say, the difference; or lack of, in their stength is never acknowledged. So both opinions are valid assumptions.

Unless the Japanese specifically talks about Trunk's ki being bigger which would of course change everything. But that's not the case, I presume.

The only thing that would definitely not make sense is if Goku fighting at 100% on Namek and Trunks was fighting at 100% on Earth. Because the Z warriors have proved time and again that they know when someone is at maximum power. So Gohan would not have been confused if they were both at 100% because there would be a clear difference.

The only thing to confuse him was the Ki type.

Yes, we agree on that. We've agreed on that a lot of times. What confused was Ki type, but Ki size had to be really close otherwise he would've said "father has become really strong!" or "it's the same ki father had on Namek, but much bigger!" pr anything on those lines.

I don't see why just because nothing is said about their strength they have to be really close and just because nothing is said my opinion has to be wrong. Nothing is said about their Ki's being similar in size, does that mean your opinion is wrong? No. It doesn't. It just leaves the whole thing open to interpretation.

I really don't get why I need evidence to validate my opinion on this scenario whereas you don't need evidence to validate yours.

Had size come into it then Gohan would have spotted the difference between a 100% Goku and a 100% Trunks

Wait... what???
Another prime example of the manga being adapted to one's opinion instead of the opinion being adapted to what's on the manga.
So in the manga when someone sensed a ki both type and size were sensed at the same time. It's like if I grab a book and I say "it's rectangular and green", two particularities that are spot at the same time.

And now you're saying me that Gohan, precisely on that case, that he didn't sense the size of Trunk's ki?
Let's see our logical process on that concrete example.
My approach:
Gohan mistakes Trunks for his father saying he have the same ki Goku had on Namek.
That means that Trunk's SSJ ki confused Gohan and that he had to be really close to Goku as well. Remember, same ki than Goku on Namek.

Your approach:
Trunks was much stronger than Goku.
Gohan says Trunks had the same ki Goku had on Namek.
Since Trunks was much stronger than Goku on Namek that means that Gohan wasn't able to sense the size of Trunk's ki, otherwise he would've said they're different.

See the difference. I draw my conclusions AFTER reading the manga. You have already drawn your conclusions even before taking into account what's said in the manga.

I never said Gohan didn't sense Trunks' Ki size. I said Gohan made the assumption that Trunks 100% was Goku's 100% as Goku was weaker than 100% on Namek in my opinion. Gohan is going to tell the difference between Trunks 100% and Goku 100% because the Z fighters can tell when someone is at their max power.

My approach:
100% SSJ Trunks stronger than Weakened SSJ Goku.
Gohan grasps the size difference is due to Goku being weaker on Namek.
Confuses 100% SSJ Trunks for 100% SSJ Goku.

Your approach:
SSJ Goku was at 100% on Namek.
One Saiyan is stronger than the other, not completely equal. - Debatable as to who is stronger.
Gohan sense a similar Ki type to SSJ Goku.

If SSJ Trunks = 100% then Gohan questions why it doesn't match up with SSJ Goku at 100% - Is it because he has become stronger or weaker?

If SSJ Trunks < 100% and < SSJ Goku at 100% then Gohan thinks that SSJ Goku is not going all out. - Assuming Trunks is not as strong as Goku.

If SSJ Trunks < 100% but > SSJ Goku at 100% then Gohan questions if Goku got stronger or this is someone else. - Assuming Trunks is stronger than Goku. Did Goku become stronger? Or is it someone else?

In my approach it is fine if SSJ Trunks fights Freeza at 100% because Gohan is going to assume that is Goku's 100%.

In your approach it can go a few ways. SSJ Trunks is either at 100% which means his Ki won't match the size of Goku's. Gohan will think about why this is so, if Goku at 100% is stronger than Trunks at 100% then Gohan will seriously question whether it is his Father because Goku would never get weaker. If he is weaker then it is possible he thinks Trunks is Goku after training which isn't so bad. If Trunks isn't going all out and it is weaker than Goku's 100% then Gohan will think Goku isn't serious. And if Trunks isn't going all out and it is stronger than Goku at 100% he is going to assume Goku has become stronger.

That is pretty offensive considering you were the one who tried to base Gohan not being able to fight on a statement that I can only assume wasn't even correctly translated. You are also making assumptions based on what a character could be thinking even if it isn't written. Gohan never pertains to the size of Trunks' Ki compared to his fathers

Gohan says Trunks had the same ki Goku had on Namek. It's you that say that in fact he was only referring to the type of ki, but that the difference in size was really big.
I mean, imagine Ki are vehicles. So if someone says "look that's my brother's car right there" and then it turns not to be his car, I'll assume that both colour, size and shape are really close between the two cars.
On the other hand, you say: "No, he didn't specifically speak about the size nor the shape. In that case he was speaking only for the colour, and he confused a 15-ton trailer and his brother's car because they were both red".

And speaking of what's offensive, you coming with excuses is also pretty offensive, because it's a way to tell me you're here not to discuss but to impose your vision of the series.

The problem is in your scenario the two cars would never be the same shape or size in the Dragon Ball Z universe they'd be off unless Trunks and Goku were exactly equal. It will be easy to spot the difference of the two cars. No matter how small the difference is to a car(ki) "expert." However, if we cover up one car(in this case the Goku car because he isn't at his maximum on Namek) so you can see the colour and the general shape. The car(ki) "expert" can only hazard a guess that the car covered up is the same as the one exposed.

None of my assumptions have been contradictory.

No? Are you sure about that? Because I remember a "Krilin received a fatal kick which wasn't the case of Gohan" that then became a "Krilin could move perfectly fine". And that's just the first example that has come to my mind.

I never said the kick was fatal. I said the kick was much more damaging than the two blows Gohan received and Kuririn could still prove he could move perfectly fine after the kick, he Jumps the equivalent of a a 3 story house. So Gohan should be in better condition than him. Or am I wrong?

Goku has shown to have stamina several times throughout the manga while not having all of his full power. A perfect example is his fight with Tambourine.

That's your first legitimately good point. Yes, that scene proves that it's possible to be drawn without evident signs of lacking stamina while still being really short of ki. I was wrong about that.

Thanks for agreeing on something I've said.

Are you going to tell me that during the whole fight Goku didn't lose an ounce of Ki even though 100% Freeza got in a good deal of punches and his huffing and puffing was all fake?

I said visible signs of lack of ki, not only huffing and puffing. Huffing and puffing is something that only lasts just after a great effort or injury is taken. And yes, Goku lost some Ki during the 5 minutes he fought against 100% Freezer, it happens that:
1. He got a second re-enragement after Freezer mocks Krilin's death (so he could've been restored there for a second time).
2. 2-3 minutes of fighting with someone at his same level won't let Goku tired enough for him to lose a lot of ki.

1. This huffing and puffing happened after the mocking of Kuririn's death I believe, and if there was another rage boost it still wouldn't be so even.
2. He doesn't need to lose a lot of Ki if he doesn't have a lot left to begin with though. If he didn't get 100% back before he transformed and was fighting on 20%-50% of course 2-3 mins are going to be enough. Coupled with the energy consumption of the SSJ form and 2-3 is plenty of time to lose enough Ki.

He may have gained back a portion during the transformation to make it more even.

I love that. I mean, is there a way to not read this like "there's no way he could've gained it all back. He (at best) may have gained back a portion, but not because the manga said so, just the tiny bit necessary to make it more even considering the power my objective-unquestionable vision of the manga gives them."

There are several parts of the manga that are open to interpretation. I don't see why you have to make it this offensive because I have a differing opinion than you. The manga makes no mention of Goku getting all of his power back yet you see it that way. If you want to say the multiplier is smaller than we think and that Goku only put up a fight because he gained all of his Ki back while Freeza maintained the damage then that is up to you.

Though I don't see how that can make sense if you couple it with the "Trunks is around Goku Namek's level." Theory because otherwise Trunks wouldn't have a chance against mecha Freeza.

[dbgtFO]

First and foremost:

Yep, that seems like the simplest and easiest way to go about.

I don't think so.

"One hundred percent" means "one hundred percent" unless we're told otherwise, plain and simple.

The problem is that "one hundred percent" is not a fixed number, but only a percentage that has to be interpreted in its context. One hundred per cent in that case was compared to his available strength at that moment, because he had been fighting only with half his available strength up until then.
So he was using the 100% of his available strength that at that point, due to the injuries, was far from being the 100% of his normal strength.

I didn't write those two lines, that was some other posters, the first was Kaboom, the second sound like something from another, but similar thread.

That's because it wasn't the same kind of rage/feeling. Goku was still pretty calm minded when fighting Nappa, he was just angry. Like you said, Gohan was an insecure kid who didn't want to fight and that kind of personality made him prone to that kind of feelings, but that doesn't mean that the other characters, under more extreme conditions, couldn't feel the same as him.

I agree with that.

As for 100% Freeza, I doubt Toriyama thought Freeza would be much stronger, if it wasn't for his injuries.

It's been happening during the whole series.

Yeah, but how many times do villains only start using their full powers after getting heavily injured?

Why? At that point it's a pretty established rule that injuries make the injured weaker. And to add to this, Freezer talks about him having lost a lot of strength at least twice.

Lol, I really can't debate this point more than half-heartedly. I think you're right, Freeza really should be at less than his actual 100% considering his actual admission of having lost his strength. It's just silly that we have Goku being all excited getting to fight the strongest guy in the universe at full power, then not even having him at his true full power...

@Hitiro
About that Gohan vs Vegeta debate. I don't think Herms translated the line freezamite keeps posting as the manga guide agrees with him.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

I brought the Daizenshuu up because you made it sound as if they a were trying to say the 50x multiplier only fits for FPSSJ. Which isn't the case. If SSJ is less than 20x Goku should just not use it then as KKx20 is better? And no, base Saiyan's do increase in strength. Otherwise why would Goku even be training in his base form during the Boo arc? For fun? It is never implied that they can't get stronger in their base form.

Look at this way, if Goku and Freeza were both equally injured then Goku isn't going to beat Freeza without a 40+ multiplier. As it so happens, Goku was the one who was most injured in the fight. So it makes it even more impossible that the multiplier is less than 20x. Unless you believe Goku fully healed after transforming into a SSJ then there is no other possible way for it to be less than 20x.

No, Goku, Trunks and Vegeta went into the ROSAT to obtain a new level of SSJ. A SSJ 2. But Goku determined the regular SSJ was best for fighting Cell and trained to rid it of it's weakness, the ki consumption. No multiplier increase is ever implied or stated. And no, the Daizenshuu doesn't agree with you on this. It doesn't say anything about increasing their capacity for their SSJ forms. It says the gains they received were due to training in SSJ. Their gains would be significantly less if they trained in their base form. As I said above we see Goku training in heaven in his base form. If he couldn't increase his base form then what would be the purpose of him training in it?

Someone put it very well about what FPSSJ is :- "The key to this state is energy conservation rather than boosted energy output. This results in a Saiyan who is able to fight longer and more efficiently than with the Ascended and Ultra stages of Super Saiyan."

Sorry dude.
With all the information that you gave me, you failed to explain a simple thing and a lot of a lot of people also fail, when people do power levels - Base Saiyans do not give more strength to the user (Saiyan), once the form of Super Saiyan is reached. This information was confirmed in the manga and I can prove it with several examples. As I said Trunks, Goku and Vegeta reach their limit in base before ROSAT, why do you think that Zenkais were over. Simply because their bodies have reached their maximum in their base form. Or why do you think Vegeta stood three days in the desert with Trunks? If Vegeta could increase his power base and multiply by 50X , after all he just needed more training and he could gain more strength - he could have increased the base easily and defeat the androids and Cell easily, but that is not what happened, he had to join the ROSAT to increase the energy Super Saiyan or in other words, achieve new levels of Super Saiyan with larger multipliers, or new transformations with more energy. In any view, the 3 adults saiyans have reached their limit in base form before entering in the Room of Time and Spirit. This information is fact on the manga itself.

[Darkprince410]

I brought the Daizenshuu up because you made it sound as if they a were trying to say the 50x multiplier only fits for FPSSJ. Which isn't the case. If SSJ is less than 20x Goku should just not use it then as KKx20 is better? And no, base Saiyan's do increase in strength. Otherwise why would Goku even be training in his base form during the Boo arc? For fun? It is never implied that they can't get stronger in their base form.

Look at this way, if Goku and Freeza were both equally injured then Goku isn't going to beat Freeza without a 40+ multiplier. As it so happens, Goku was the one who was most injured in the fight. So it makes it even more impossible that the multiplier is less than 20x. Unless you believe Goku fully healed after transforming into a SSJ then there is no other possible way for it to be less than 20x.

No, Goku, Trunks and Vegeta went into the ROSAT to obtain a new level of SSJ. A SSJ 2. But Goku determined the regular SSJ was best for fighting Cell and trained to rid it of it's weakness, the ki consumption. No multiplier increase is ever implied or stated. And no, the Daizenshuu doesn't agree with you on this. It doesn't say anything about increasing their capacity for their SSJ forms. It says the gains they received were due to training in SSJ. Their gains would be significantly less if they trained in their base form. As I said above we see Goku training in heaven in his base form. If he couldn't increase his base form then what would be the purpose of him training in it?

Someone put it very well about what FPSSJ is :- "The key to this state is energy conservation rather than boosted energy output. This results in a Saiyan who is able to fight longer and more efficiently than with the Ascended and Ultra stages of Super Saiyan."

Sorry dude.
With all the information that you gave me, you failed to explain a simple thing and a lot of a lot of people also fail, when people do power levels - Base Saiyans do not give more strength to the user (Saiyan), once the form of Super Saiyan is reached. This information was confirmed in the manga and I can prove it with several examples. As I said Trunks, Goku and Vegeta reach their limit in base before ROSAT, why do you think that Zenkais were over. Simply because their bodies have reached their maximum in their base form. Or why do you think Vegeta stood three days in the desert with Trunks? If Vegeta could increase his power base and multiply by 50X , after all he just needed more training and he could gain more strength - he could have increased the base easily and defeat the androids and Cell easily, but that is not what happened, he had to join the ROSAT to increase the energy Super Saiyan or in other words, achieve new levels of Super Saiyan with larger multipliers, or new transformations with more energy. In any view, the 3 adults saiyans have reached their limit in base form before entering in the Room of Time and Spirit. This information is fact on the manga itself.

They were looking for something that would increase their strength far quicker than what they would get by training for awhile in their base form to get the same results. In order to get the same same strength they would get as a Super Saiya-jin 2, a Saiya-jin would need to train their base form to be twice what it was before, and even then the Super Saiya-jin transformations would still prove to generate more power, because however strong the base form was, the Ssj form would be all the more powerful. Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan were needing to find a way to grow more powerful quickly, and while Trunks and Vegeta just tried to pump out more ki from the form than the 50x of the transformation, Goku realized that the normal Super Saiya-jin form offered the best balance of strength, speed, and ki drain.

Likewise, while nothing is said about Goku or Vegeta about reaching the cap of their base forms, for Gohan it was explicitly said that he hadn't.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Basically saying that he had grown substantially stronger in his base form as a result of his Z sword training, and that as powerful as he became in his base form, then he'd grown even more substantial in his Ssj form as a result.

Likewise, that line essentially establishes that the Super Saiya-jin transformation is a multiplier (going back to your initial reason for making the topic), since it's basically confirming that the Ssj transformation's strength is based on the strength of the base form.

[Hitiro]

Sorry dude.
With all the information that you gave me, you failed to explain a simple thing and a lot of a lot of people also fail, when people do power levels - Base Saiyans do not give more strength to the user (Saiyan), once the form of Super Saiyan is reached. This information was confirmed in the manga and I can prove it with several examples. As I said Trunks, Goku and Vegeta reach their limit in base before ROSAT, why do you think that Zenkais were over. Simply because their bodies have reached their maximum in their base form. Or why do you think Vegeta stood three days in the desert with Trunks? If Vegeta could increase his power base and multiply by 50X , after all he just needed more training and he could gain more strength - he could have increased the base easily and defeat the androids and Cell easily, but that is not what happened, he had to join the ROSAT to increase the energy Super Saiyan or in other words, achieve new levels of Super Saiyan with larger multipliers, or new transformations with more energy. In any view, the 3 adults saiyans have reached their limit in base form before entering in the Room of Time and Spirit. This information is fact on the manga itself.

It isn't confirmed by the manga though. You haven't proved any examples. When is it ever stated that Trunks, Goku and Vegeta reach their limit in base before the RoSaT? And what in the manga says that Zenkai's are over? The Zenkai's could have become so insignificant they aren't worth mentioning any more.

If Goku is at 20 million and he gets a Zenkai that puts him at between 21 million and 23 million there is relatively no difference. But Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million makes him several times stronger. Why do you also assume it would be easy for Vegeta to catch up to the Androids? You're under the assumption that it easy to gain battle power in base? Only Piccolo has shown sizeable gains with normal training. Goku has shown huge gains through Zenkai's and unnatural training like gravity training. Ignoring the Zenkai in the Namek arc how long would it have taken Goku to get to 3 million through gravity training? It took Goku 6 days to reach 90,000. Assuming linearity while training it would take another 6 days for him to reach 180,000 (But linearity isn't possible because as he gets stronger he would have less gains meaning it would take him more days to reach another increment of 90,000).

It would take him a theorised 200 days to reach 3 million through pure 100G training every day, all day. And like I said, gains decrease the stronger the Saiyan gets meaning they would have to train harder/longer. So 200 days is a very optimistic amount. Now for Goku to get 2x stronger he would have to train for more than 200 days at 100G. To get 2x stronger again? over 400 days. To get 2x stronger again? more than 800 days. And so on. But again, assuming linearity in training and ignoring the fact that it gets more difficult to get the same gain each time. After 1400 days, 4 years of training, Goku's battle power would be a theorised 24 million. What if the Androids are as strong as 2.4 billion? SSJ Goku at 1.2 billion (24 million * 50) wouldn't be able to beat them because they are twice as strong as him. Assuming linearity again and ignoring reduction of gains as he grows stronger. He'd have to train for more than 8 years to get twice as strong as he was to be able to fight on par with the Androids.

So why would Goku go into the RoSaT? Well, finding a the elusive SSJ2 form means he wouldn't have to train for 8 years for starters. Why train for 8 years to get two times stronger when you can get the SSJ2 transformation that is 2x stronger than the first SSJ form? Of course he didn't succeed. But Gohan's natural ability and the gains from maintaining the SSJ form for the whole year while sparring with Gohan were much more impressive gains than the 100G training Goku used before.

We see a perfect example of it taking long to catch up to someone in this manga in the Boo arc. Did it not take Goku and Vegeta the 7 years to catch up with SSJ2 Enraged Gohan's battle power?

The manga also pertains to the Saiyan's hitting their limits and surpassing them in their base forms multiple times. So even if it does say they've hit their limit there is no proof that they can't overcome that limit. Not hat I recall the manga specifically stating all of the Saiyan's had hit their limits in the Cell arc.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.5-6, P14.1
Context: after Freeza and Vegeta grapple for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Freeza: “I see…Seems that wasn’t a complete lie…”
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”
Kuririn: “I-I see…! Since coming here Vegeta’s acquired such strength that he seems to have even further surpassed his limits…B-but…F-Freeza is oddly calm…Why?...”

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P6.1-2
Context: after Jheese freaks out over Vegeta's new battle power
Vegeta: “That’s right…I’ve surpassed Saiyan limits, and my strength is still increasing more and more…The truth is that I’ve realized it too…That this extension of my power isn’t merely what you’d call giftedness…In other words…I’m steadily drawing near…to becoming a Super Saiyan!”

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Furthermore, Goku only reached 90,000 due to Zenkai's too.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P8.3-4
Context: Narrator commenting on Goku’s increasing strength.
Narrator: “Goku had continued this insane pattern of pushing his body and ki to the brink of death, then refreshing himself again by eating a senzu. The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death…”

So 100G training without Zenkai boosts is going to yield less than 90,000 additional battle power if you keep it up.

And again, if training in Base doesn't effect power any more because they've reached their limit. Then why is Goku training in his base form in Heaven during the Boo arc?

[DannyDBZfanforever]

[quote="Hitiro"][/quote]

Vegeta had a close fight with # 18, and after the fight he ate a senzu. If there a Zenkai, he would have gone there to do a rematch with #18. And it was not what happened. Same thing after the beating he took from Perfect Cell, Vegeta received a senzu from Krilin - in other words no Zenkai - he was doing more training for ROSAT, instead.
Ultimate Gohan was fighting Super Buu with Gotenks absorbed, Buu notices that Gohan ,after healed by Dende, he had no power increase. Zenkais ended when the Saiyans reach their maximum base power. And when the saiyans reach their maximum base power, then they have finally access to the Super Saiyan Form.
Goku, after the beating from Perfect Cell at Cell games, He ate a Senzu, no Zenkai at all, and the list goes on.
The rest of your argument are fallacies, with numbers and wrong information from Daizenshuu and without basis and any connection to be compared to manga.

Edit: Hitiro, it is interesting that all chapters which bring in your post (chapters -270, 280, 289, 295, 306 e 307), are before the transformation of Goku to Super Saiyan. Why? Why are you put things I never said?
I never said Vegeta and Goku (before the Transformation of Super Saiyan) had no Zenkai, instead of all the training of Goku and Vegeta in the Namek saga was based on the Zenkai system. My observation is that after a Saiyan achieve the transformation of Super Saiyan, the Base Saiyans has no power increases. Because for them to reach the Super Saiyan form, their bases must reach their power limit first.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

You bring one of the most contradictory characters in the entire manga to prove a point totally wrong. After this conversation appears the old Kaioshin and he told to East Kaioshin (the character who speacks these lines: "If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world") that he is totally mistaken, that was not how things work. Why you did not post the rest of the conversation from the manga, and not only parts of the manga that appeal to your advantage to win a conversation.
Training with the sword just did improve the strength Gohan`s arms (told by himself) has nothing to do with the exponential increase in battle power in his Base.

[Darkprince410]

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

You bring one of the most contradictory characters in the entire manga to prove a point totally wrong. After this conversation appears the old Kaioshin and he told to East Kaioshin (the character who speacks these lines: "If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world") that he is totally mistaken, that was not how things work. Why you did not post the rest of the conversation from the manga, and not only parts of the manga that appeal to your advantage to win a conversation.
Training with the sword just did improve the strength Gohan`s arms (told by himself) has nothing to do with the exponential increase in battle power in his Base.

Because nothing is said afterwards that contradicts that. Neither Rou Kaioushin, Gohan, or Goku say anything about him being wrong in that regard. The only thing that's said is just Goku being unsure as to whether or not Gohan's grown strong enough in his base form to become powerful enough as a Super Saiya-jin 2 to defeat Buu, NOT that Super Saiya-jin doesn't work the way he's believing it will.

Goku's line after even further verifies that Gohan has grown stronger as a result of his training (not just his arm strength, but his strength as a whole). He knew full well that Gohan stood absolutely no chance against Buu back before the Z Sword training, but now he's unsure of whether or not Gohan is stronger than Buu as a result of his training. That means that he's noticed an increase in Gohan's strength as a result of the training, just he's not sure if Ssj2 Gohan following that training would be enough to beat him.

Additionally, if Goku was already at his maximum base battle power before his time in the Room of Spirit and Time, then why is he shown in the afterlife (following his death from Cell's self-destruct) training while in his base form?

Going back to the whole Zenkai thing, as Hitiro said, the boosts might have been negligible amounts once the Saiya-jin's base grew into the millions. They were substantial early on because it didn't take a lot to make for a large boost, but when you're as strong as the Saiya-jin are during the Cell and Buu Sagas, something like a million increase to the base isn't going to be anything major, and certainly wasn't going to turn the tides of any battle. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because no Zenkai is mentioned doesn't mean that one didn't potentially occur. The only time, following the Freeza Saga, where a Saiya-jin takes a considerable beating, recovers from it, and receives no boost is Gohan following his fight with Gotenks Buu, but that could and very likely is related in part to Rou Kaioushin having pushed his strength beyond its natural limits, thus no strength available for the Zenkai to unlock.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Because nothing is said afterwards that contradicts that. Neither Rou Kaioushin, Gohan, or Goku say anything about him being wrong in that regard. The only thing that's said is just Goku being unsure as to whether or not Gohan's grown strong enough in his base form to become powerful enough as a Super Saiya-jin 2 to defeat Buu, NOT that Super Saiya-jin doesn't work the way he's believing it will.

Goku's line after even further verifies that Gohan has grown stronger as a result of his training (not just his arm strength, but his strength as a whole). He knew full well that Gohan stood absolutely no chance against Buu back before the Z Sword training, but now he's unsure of whether or not Gohan is stronger than Buu as a result of his training. That means that he's noticed an increase in Gohan's strength as a result of the training, just he's not sure if Ssj2 Gohan following that training would be enough to beat him.

Additionally, if Goku was already at his maximum base battle power before his time in the Room of Spirit and Time, then why is he shown in the afterlife (following his death from Cell's self-destruct) training while in his base form?

Going back to the whole Zenkai thing, as Hitiro said, the boosts might have been negligible amounts once the Saiya-jin's base grew into the millions. They were substantial early on because it didn't take a lot to make for a large boost, but when you're as strong as the Saiya-jin are during the Cell and Buu Sagas, something like a million increase to the base isn't going to be anything major, and certainly wasn't going to turn the tides of any battle. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because no Zenkai is mentioned doesn't mean that one didn't potentially occur. The only time, following the Freeza Saga, where a Saiya-jin takes a considerable beating, recovers from it, and receives no boost is Gohan following his fight with Gotenks Buu, but that could and very likely is related in part to Rou Kaioushin having pushed his strength beyond its natural limits, thus no strength available for the Zenkai to unlock.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - translation - I can not prove with facts in the manga, that the bases of the Saiyans have reached their limit and therefore no Zenkai after Goku on Namek (or for Vegeta and Trunks in Android Saga). In other words, you can not prove to me that I'm wrong.
Rou Kaioshin explicitly says that is not how things work. I told you put the rest of the text from the pages of the manga.
Not Zenkai after the Base Saiyans, once they reach the Super Saiyan form. When Vegeta transforms into SS for the first time, he explains in detail that he trained hard (and a long and difficult training by the way) and he did not see improvements in power, by this he reached his limit in his Base Form, to see that it has reached its limit on his Base Form and with a heart full of pure hate, he managed to overcome that barrier and turned into Super Saiyan. Second reason - after the Androids saga of the entire workout of the Saiyans was to obtain new and better levels of transformations to increase their power. Especially in Rosat, that is why after the beating he took from Perfect Cell, he was doing more training on ROSAT, instead he ask someone, for someone to take him a blow with Ki in his belly and then he eats a senzu and he gets a big boost in power, like Krilin did to him on Namek.

What this means:
"Going back to the whole Zenkai thing, as Hitiro said, the boosts might have been negligible amounts once the Saiya-jin's base grew into the millions."
I hope this is not 150KK and 120KK from the Daizenshuu, I have explained, these numbers I do not take into account (I only took into consideration the numebers from the manga). The last battle power was Frieza in his second form was over 1 million units and if we go by the rule of 10% advantage, Piccolo fused with Nail with a power over 1.1K, with that difference he could defeat the second form of Frieza easily at some degree. Increases yes, negligible not even close. Unless you follow the numbers Daizenshuu religiously, any numbers would be negligible. Because these numbers are too absurd to take seriously, and these numbers do not even take into account the damage that fighters take into combat, to begin.

[Hitiro]

Vegeta had a close fight with # 18, and after the fight he ate a senzu. If there a Zenkai, he would have gone there to do a rematch with #18. And it was not what happened. Same thing after the beating he took from Perfect Cell, Vegeta received a senzu from Krilin - in other words no Zenkai - he was doing more training for ROSAT, instead.
Ultimate Gohan was fighting Super Buu with Gotenks absorbed, Buu notices that Gohan ,after healed by Dende, he had no power increase. Zenkais ended when the Saiyans reach their maximum base power. And when the saiyans reach their maximum base power, then they have finally access to the Super Saiyan Form.
Goku, after the beating from Perfect Cell at Cell games, He ate a Senzu, no Zenkai at all, and the list goes on.
The rest of your argument are fallacies, with numbers and wrong information from Daizenshuu and without basis and any connection to be compared to manga.

Edit: Hitiro, it is interesting that all chapters which bring in your post (chapters -270, 280, 289, 295, 306 e 307), are before the transformation of Goku to Super Saiyan. Why? Why are you put things I never said?
I never said Vegeta and Goku (before the Transformation of Super Saiyan) had no Zenkai, instead of all the training of Goku and Vegeta in the Namek saga was based on the Zenkai system. My observation is that after a Saiyan achieve the transformation of Super Saiyan, the Base Saiyans has no power increases. Because for them to reach the Super Saiyan form, their bases must reach their power limit first.

Vegeta's fight with #18 was not close. He was completely outmatched. Even the blows he landed against her didn't do anything while all the blows she landed on him injured him, she broke his arm and made him bleed. It was like the Vegeta vs Recoom fight all over again. And again, Zenkai's had become so minimal at this point it wouldn't have mattered if he got the Zenkai. It wouldn't have changed the outcome. The same with Gohan vs Bootenks. If Bootenks was 400% stronger than Gohan and Gohan received a Zenkai then Bootenks is still going to be 399% stronger than him.

My last post included nothing from the Daizenshuu. So I don't understand why you are bringing that up. I've been using the manga.

I also didn't provide those chapters because of Zenkai's. I provided those chapters to point out that the story has talked about limits multiple times and every time the characters have been mentioned to surpass their "limits." So even if it does say that the Saiyan's had reached their limits it is not definite that they couldn't overcome them. The narrator said Goku had surpassed Saiyan limits when he arrived on Namek when he reached 90,000. Vegeta then said Goku surpassed his limits yet again when he reached a battle power high enough to fend off a suppressed Freeza. Limits have always been overcome before. So why can't they overcome them now?

Not that I ever recall the manga saying that Goku, Vegeta and Trunks had reached their limits. When is it said? Can you give me the quote and the chapter/page?

Also, you haven't answered my question. If the Saiyan's can't increase their base powers any more. Why is Goku training as a base Saiyan in Heaven? Surely he should be training as a SSJ because training as a base Saiyan would provide no increase according to you?

[Darkprince410]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - translation - I can not prove with facts in the manga, that the bases of the Saiyans have reached their limit and therefore no Zenkai after Goku on Namek (or for Vegeta and Trunks in Android Saga). In other words, you can not prove to me that I'm wrong.
Rou Kaioshin explicitly says that is not how things work. I told you put the rest of the text from the pages of the manga.
Not Zenkai after the Base Saiyans, once they reach the Super Saiyan form. When Vegeta transforms into SS for the first time, he explains in detail that he trained hard (and a long and difficult training by the way) and he did not see improvements in power, by this he reached his limit in his Base Form, to see that it has reached its limit on his Base Form and with a heart full of pure hate, he managed to overcome that barrier and turned into Super Saiyan. Second reason - after the Androids saga of the entire workout of the Saiyans was to obtain new and better levels of transformations to increase their power. Especially in Rosat, that is why after the beating he took from Perfect Cell, he was doing more training on ROSAT, instead he ask someone, for someone to take him a blow with Ki in his belly and then he eats a senzu and he gets a big boost in power, like Krilin did to him on Namek.

What this means:
"Going back to the whole Zenkai thing, as Hitiro said, the boosts might have been negligible amounts once the Saiya-jin's base grew into the millions."
I hope this is not 150KK and 120KK from the Daizenshuu, I have explained, these numbers I do not take into account (I only took into consideration the numebers from the manga). The last battle power was Freeza in his second form was over 1 million units and if we go by the rule of 10% advantage, Piccolo fused with Nail with a power over 1.1K, with that difference he could defeat the second form of Freeza easily at some degree. Increases yes, negligible not even close. Unless you follow the numbers Daizenshuu religiously, any numbers would be negligible. Because these numbers are too absurd to take seriously, and these numbers do not even take into account the damage that fighters take into combat, to begin.

Rou Kaioushin doesn't say anything about how that's not how the Super Saiya-jin works though. I'm not "omitting" anything just to try and prove my point about the subject, because there's nothing there to omit. No one at any point after that conversation says that 1) Gohan didn't get stronger in his base form as a result of his training with the Z Sword, or 2) that his Ssj and Ssj2 forms weren't going to grow proportionally larger as a result of that training. If you say there's something I'm omitting, then give the exact quote.

First off, there's no rule of 10% advantage, as I've shown you through various other accounts (taken from the manga) that a gap of 10%-35% as you've said, doesn't automatically result in a one-shot win for the stronger individual. Besides, even taking solely the manga into account, we have Piccolo, who was well over a million at the time, being far weaker than Vegeta's strength after the Zenkai he received from Kuririn's blast, who in turn is far weaker than Goku following his Zenkai and release from the rejuvenation chamber. Goku in his base form was strong enough to where Piccolo felt like his and Freeza's ki alone could crush him, indicating a considerable difference between the two. Furthermore, since this is just the Freeza Saga, and his base increased considerably over the years, him being in the millions in his base form is pretty clear.

Lastly, as I said in my previous post, and Hitiro also commented on, if Goku were already at his maximum base battle power by that point of the manga, why was he shown training in the afterlife, in preparation for his one day back on Earth, in his base form? When South Kaiou and his newest student came over, Goku was there, training in his base form with one ton weights on his arms and legs. If he were already at his maximum, then he shouldn't be getting anything out of that, so why would he be doing it?

[freezamite]

Where do you get the notion that the anger pushed his ki back up to his maximum base form at the time?

Because otherwise he wouldn't have turned SSJ. Rage boosts alone are not enough to turn you into a SSJ, otherwise Gohan would've been a SSJ since the beginning of Z.
Besides that, Goku dodging 100% Freezer's kienzan, every single rage boost working that way and nothing being said about this being an exception, him (SSJ Goku) having the same strength than SSJ Trunks without being injured and fighting at his maximum power...
Why are you so invested on him not regaining his maximum power? Considering you've still to provide a single quote of the manga that points to that direction, this is starting to seem something personal to you...

Goku was battered, worn down, and barely able to stand (not to mention that he was close enough to the Genki Dama that he potentially took some damage from that as well), and even if he had his ki reserves restored, it'd only be up to what his body could hold while in its weakened state, and the transformation would increase his strength in relation to that.

And on what facts are you basing that claim, may I ask? This is not real life, in real life if you are exhausted it doesn't matter if someone kills your family in front of you, you'll still be exhausted. In real life you won't turn into SSJ. In real life there're no ki blasts.

Look, this is not about "what I would like had happened in the manga", but about "what happened in the manga". If Goku hadn't regained all of his strength:
1. The "how to turn into a SSJ" explanation wouldn't make any sense.
2. Goku wouldn't have been able to dodge one of 100% Freezer's attacks.
3. Goku wouldn't have a power comparable to that of Trunks (who was at 100% full condition).

And we also saw Gohan going from "I can't stand up" to being able to fight against Vegeta who despite being injured was still much stronger than Gohan had ever been without being enraged... all of this evidence, while at the same time you're not being able to quote a single page where anything in the lines of "in Namek I couldn't use my full strength" is being said. Besides your personal interests in defending your made-up stance, I see nothing that points to what you say. NOTHING. Can you show me a page where it's said that Goku didn't regain all of his strength, or anything that could point towards that? Anything (a sentence, a drawing, a feat). Because you're going against solid feats, so at least you would need equally solid feats to defend your made-up scenario.

he's still going to be affected by any damage he had taken up to that point. It's not like it miraculously restores him to 100% and pushes him beyond, in turn negating all damage. He's still going to contend with his weakened physical condition.

Yes, this is why he could fight against Vegeta, because he was so affected by the injuries... look, I understand that from your perspective that's the most logical approach, but this is not about making DB realistic, it's about what was drawn on DB. And in DB rage boosts ignored injuries. It happened against Vegeta, it happened against Cell and it would've happened in any other situation with an injured Gohan suddenly enraging.

For all intents and purposes, they could have both lost the same proportional amount of strength as a result of their respective damage (Freeza beating Goku around while at 50% full power, and Goku dealing a fair amount of damage to Freeza with the Genki Dama), and thus when Goku transformed, it still needed a 50x boost to get him to a level to where he could fight Freeza's 100% full power at that point.

For all intents and purposes, if that was the case then Goku wouldn't be at Trunks levels, nor his base-state able to dodge one of Freezer's attacks. Yes, if it weren't for what's written in the manga that could be a plausible scenario (a plausible one, not the only possible one that's what you try to defend), but it happens that those facts are there.

So Freeza and Goku were both not 100%, glad we cleared this up.

If that's the conclusion you've reached after reading what I said then I think I'm starting to understand a lot of things...

And now an example of a planet-sized facepalm:

Because it has never happened before or after that for any other character except for Gohan. How many times do I have to repeat this?

Because it's the first time. I don't need to give any other reason.

Up until now excuses had been contradictory but with a certain limit. Now we've reached the point of being contradictory between them even in TWO CONSECUTIVE SENTENCES!!! LOL

Look, that "it has never happened before or after" would be valid if it wasn't because Goku directly states (in the manga) that he had had a rage boost (pacific heart whose violence awoke because of a rage fit).
But even accepting that fallacy of yours, then it happens that the reason you give to justify the strength recovery is another "once in a lifetime" feat that not only has never happened to Goku before or after that scene, but that has never been even documented on the manga on any single character!

You're also so personally invested on the discussion that you even lie about what we said in past messages:

When did I say that Vegeta had a tranquil heart? You were asking why didn't Vegeta transform on Namek even though he was both angry and strong enough to transform

That's what I asked in reality:

When did Freezer say that Vegeta had a tranquil heart?

I've asked before, and I've been told that the correct word is tranquil/calm/gentle (all 3 are the same thing). And as for when Freeza said it:...

I don't know if that has been a misunderstanding or if you've reached the point where it doesn't matter what I say that you'll always try to contradict it with whatever excuse you can think off. Kid, this is just a manga we are discussing about, take it easy and don't get so emotionally invested on the discussion.

Again, Goku says that the anger triggers the transformation, which is true. He never said that when he gets angry, he gets stronger without transforming.

He also never said that when someone transforms for the first time there's a healing process related to the transformation and here we have you going with this stance.
Goku speaks about that kind of rage, and we all know what that feeling does to the other characters.

To be sincere, I've been "holding back" a couple of scenes of the manga hoping you would realize your mistakes, but now that I see how you straight up lied and also how you aren't afraid of contradicting yourself as long as that's enough for you to avoid admitting you're wrong on anything I think I'll just point how clueless you really are when it comes to Dragon Ball related things.
That's from one of your messages from the last page:

What we, the fans, call "rage boost" is the ability to get stronger through anger but without transforming.

That's the first thing I was holding back. HOW CAN ANYONE EVEN INSINUATE THAT FANS ONLY CONSIDER SOMETHING BEING A RAGE BOOST WHEN THERE'RE NO TRANSFORMATIONS INVOLVED, WHEN THE MOST FAMOUS RAGE BOOST IN THE WHOLE SERIES IS THE ONE TURNING GOHAN INTO A SSJ2???
Hell, in the animated version there even was a song inserted on that scene and it's one of the most iconic rage boosts of the whole series. How can anyone discuss about DB without knowing that?

Show me one example of anyone that isn't Gohan that restored/increased his power with his rage, and without transforming.

Without transforming at all or without transforming for the first time? Because there's quite an evident rage boost for Vegeta when he sees Trunks being killed by Cell. It wasn't enough for Vegeta to damage Cell, but the power up was pretty evident considering that Vegeta was only at "mini-Cell" levels of strength prior to that (and we all know what happened to the mini-Cells when a SSJ2 attacked them).
So yes, of course I had it (I was just waiting to see how many excuses you were able to put up before I put the evidences in front of you), although I can already imagine your next excuse:
"That doesn't count because Vegeta enraged in base state and transformed into SSJ1 when he attacked Cell".

Rage boosts are not common on characters besides Gohan because they have violent personalities that make them less prone to having them. But at that point of the series Vegeta had softened his bad personality (and training with Trunks for a whole year surely made him to be attached to him) so he had a rage boost in a situation that would've never affected him in the past.

It being implied doesn't make it fact, it is subjective.

There's nothing subjective in that Vegeta was the strongest sayan ever and that Freezer destroyed planet Vegeta because sayans were becoming stronger. But yes, it wasn't a fact of the manga, it was from the TV special that the manga canonized when Toriyama drew the death scene of bardock in the series.

So feats are less than implications now?

It's not a "feat" since the moment we see how a strong character can be hurt with weak attacks if he restrains his power enough. But the worst thing here is that you're even unable to see that my Pilaf SSJ3 story is not even an implication. That's the point precisely, there're no feats nor implications to support it, so it's false by definition even if I can come up with extravagant excuses to justify it.
You'll never be able to demonstrate that I'm wrong unless I contradict the manga in something (like how you contradicted it in dozens of times and came up with more excuses), but Pilaf hiding his power already "justifies" how he can be hurt just by kicking at a wall (don't you remember how Vegeta was badly injured by Krilin because he restrained his power in order to allow that?).
It's not with "Pilaf hurt his hand hitting a wall" that you will demonstrate that my SSJ3 Pilaf made-up story is false. Unless you accept that in this case the burden of proof is on me you won't be able to demonstrate that I'm wrong. The problem is that if you accept that, then you would have to try to proof many of your made-up excuses which is obviously impossible for you to do so.

You are the only one who thinks they aren't here.

In fact there has been at least two other posters that have answered to your excuses but you blatantly ignored them. That doesn't make them to not exist. If your excuses are valid, give pages and chapters to justify them.

2. There are a group of people that think the initial SSJ transformation is kind of like a adrenaline rush which allows him to go further than he should. Don't see why that isn't a valid opinion over rage boosts.

Because no one ever says anything about "first transformation recoveries" and as an excuse is as valid as my Pilaf SSJ3 theory. No feats and no implications to back it.
In fact, the whole Gohan turning into a SSJ2 contradicts that. No one is saying "we need Gohan to enrage to trigger up a new transformation that will restore his power because it's the first time", no. What's said is that "we need Gohan to enrage so he can release all of his strength" and him turning into a SSJ2 was a side effect of that increase in strength in the same way turning a SSJ was.
So yeah, another excuse that is so bad that contradicts the manga. It's curious how I'm defending my ridiculous and made-up story of SSJ3 Pilaf even better than you can defend the excuses you give in this threads.

3. Gohan is the only character to actually be stated to receive these though.

Stated by other characters? Yes. Sated in the manga? No. We also have Goku and Vegeta.

4. Every single time that someone has had this feeling they have gained much more strength then they ever had? Can you show me an example of a character other than Gohan?

We're speaking of a specific feeling, not any kind of rage. We've seen a lot of characters being pissed about anything, and in fact that even reduced their strength in some cases (Nappa). But when that specific feeling appeared there has always been a rage boost. We have Gohan, Goku and Vegeta to prove it. 3 cases. And we also have an example of a rage boost ending with a transformation (Gohan SSJ2) that totally destroys your excuse of "it's not the rage but the fact of transforming for the first time".

There have been no cases stated, other than Gohan's, where there have been rage boosts. Goku and Vegeta could simply be considered as getting angry and having no boosts.

So going from being unable to stand-up to SSJ is not a boost? And that was because of the rage. You coming up with excuses like the "first-time transforming" healing (and why would he transform at that point if according to you he had had that feeling dozens of times before and there's no need to have your full base-state strength in order to transform? I'm waiting for the 999999th excuse to show up on here) won't change that.

You can't prove to me they boosted as it is never stated.

It wasn't stated that Goku went from not being able to stand up to SSJ levels of strength?

Goku dodging what? Freeza's Kienzan? As I said before. Goku simply turned around and the Kienzan missed. It wasn't a dodging feat.

The Kienzan failed? This is straight up lying. Come on, that would reach "excuse" level if it wasn't because of that panel of Goku clearly moving his head to the side in order to dodge. Even if it wasn't for that panel, that would be another absurd excuse because accuracy has never been a factor in DB unless a character was under a certain extreme condition (like being "Tayokened") and there's nothing that point towards Freezer having bad accuracy at that moment.

The rage awoke the transformation. It never suggested a boost in base Goku's strength.

Yes I get it, the "boost" was suggested by the "adrenaline" of "first time transformations". Yeah.

Unlike Gohan who only says he can't move because it hurts.

So you're quoting the wrong dialogue trying to prove that the dialogue I'm pointing at never happened? You can do better than that, cant' you? XD

No, what I imply is that Gohan stood up because he got angry enough to ignore the pain and try to fight anyway. Goku already stated Gohan should be able to hold off Vegeta, even without any sort of "rage boost."

So that wasn't a rage boost. That was Gohan just ignoring the pain (and I don't see what pain are you talking about when he says that he can't move, not "I can't move because of the temporary pain but wait a second that once this is gone I'll be at 100% again"). One pathetic excuse after another. Brilliant!

I said he had a good amount of it left.

Yeah, a good amount like not being able to stand up. Amazing amount of power he had at that point.

Your assumption is baseless because Gohan had already convinced the audience he was too afraid to fight Vegeta because he was too strong.

That's... I don't think I have words to describe how bad this excuse is. So him being afraid demonstrates that he wasn't injured. That's... special, at the very least.

I'm asking you to give me more examples because it seems we can't agree on the Gohan vs. Vegeta fight because you keep thinking he is severely weakened from two blows. If you can provide me with an example other than this one to support your claim then I'm all for it.

Even if I had another example you would come with another totally made-up excuse and would ask for a third example. Hell, you haven't provided even a single example of anything you're claiming, and you're asking me for MULTIPLE examples of something

Which you continue to ignore, Kuririn received a much more hefty attack than Gohan's. Yet Kuririn could move fine.

Krilin was moving fine
But before anything more, I have to thank dbgtFO for providing that link to the manga guide. I didn't read the manga guide and I didn't know it was so complete, so it's for sure a valuable source of info.
From the link provided by dbgtFO:

Kuririn slowly starts to get back to his feet, and Gohan says he can’t move.

In a single sentence of that guide, TWO EXCUSES being defeated. Amazing.
Krilin "slowly starting to get back to his feet" turns to "Krilin moving fine", and "Gohan saying he can't move" turns to "Gohan saying he was fine but couldn't move because he was hurt". STOP PUTTING EXCUSES, SERIOUSLY.

Vegeta's fight with #18 was not close. He was completely outmatched.

That's from a different discussion, but even then, what the hell? Vegeta fought at #18 level until he got tired. Vegeta had as much strength as #18 but he lacked the unlimited stamina the android had. Stop telling lies!