Piccolo merges with Kami earlier

[Hades]

What if Piccolo had merged with Kami when they sensed Freeza and King Cold were en route to Earth?

[xJeffx]

Then Piccolo might be powerful enough to defeat Freeza and King Cold but then the dragonballs would turn to stone.

[RandomGuy96]

I doubt it would help. Cold and Freeza were literally dozens of times stronger than any hero except the two Super Saiyans. Not even the boost he got from fusing with Nail was that large, and the boost he got from fusing with Kami was implied to be around x2 or so.

So everything would proceed the same way in this mini-arc. Trunks swoops in, kills Freeza before he knows what's going on, then fucks around with Cold a bit before killing him too. However, this would have huge effects when 19 and 20 arrive. I assume that Piccolo, after the 3 years of training with Goku, would be the same strength as he was when he did that training and fused with Kami later (i.e., what happened in the story). Since 19 and 20 would be the only threats around by that point, and their base powers (i.e. no energy absorbed) are arguably weaker than Freeza and Cold... yeah, this arc would be very, very short. Piccolo wouldn't even let Goku fight first (probably), he'd just dispatch both androids with one blow each. Menaing 17, 18, and 16 never gets released. Then Piccolo would probably kill Vegeta.

I wonder what Cell would do in this timeline...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

the boost he got from fusing with Kami was implied to be around x2 or so.

Where was this implied?

[RandomGuy96]

the boost he got from fusing with Kami was implied to be around x2 or so.

Where was this implied?

One, Piccolo wasn't extremely far off from the Super Saiyans to begin with. Two, this comment:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth!"

[DBZGTKOSDH]

One, Piccolo wasn't extremely far off from the Super Saiyans to begin with.

Says what?

Two, this comment:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth!"

If this was to be taken literally, then Merged Piccolo's BP should be Piccolo's BP + Kami's BP, which is barely an increase for Piccolo.

[RandomGuy96]

One, Piccolo wasn't extremely far off from the Super Saiyans to begin with.

Says what?

Two, this comment:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth!"

If this was to be taken literally, then Merged Piccolo's BP should be Piccolo's BP + Kami's BP, which is barely an increase for Piccolo.

Krillin comparing him to a Super Saiyan, Tenshinhan comparing Vegeta and Piccolo's power-ups, him being willing to rush in to fight 19 [post energy], easily tooling 20 [post energy], and all the implications of him being above SS Trunks and SS Goku from the mecha mini-arc.

If taken literally, it just means that fused Piccolo is twice normal Piccolo, given that the elder goes on to say that if he fused, he wouldn't have been killed.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Krillin comparing him to a Super Saiyan

Kuririn was surprised that Piccolo could fight against the Artificial Humans that, to his knowledge, had killed Super Saiyans in the future.

Tenshinhan comparing Vegeta and Piccolo's power-ups

He didn't compare them, he said that they were both very strong. And compared to him, Piccolo was very strong.

him being willing to rush in to fight 19 [post energy]

#19 had taken the energy of sick SS Goku, and as we saw when Vegeta came, he wasn't anywhere near the level of a Super Saiyan. Piccolo was also the 2nd strongest there, so he was the only one that could provide some help to Goku.

easily tooling 20 [post energy]

And? #20 was also nowhere near a Super Saiyan. He hadn't even absorbed power from anyone strong, he had only absorbed all of Yamcha, a normal ki blast from SS Vegeta, and some power from a suppressed Piccolo.

and all the implications of him being above SS Trunks and SS Goku from the mecha mini-arc.

What implications?

If taken literally, it just means that fused Piccolo is twice normal Piccolo, given that the elder goes on to say that if he fused, he wouldn't have been killed.

If the original Namekian was at 100, then Kami & Daimao would be 50 & 50 respectively. Meaning that if Piccolo was at 1.000.000, and Kami was at 60, then Merged Piccolo would be at 1.000.060.

[dbgtFO]

What if Piccolo had merged with Kami when they sensed Freeza and King Cold were en route to Earth?

Piccolo would still be too inferior to be able to do anything against them.
In the next arc though, he should be the strongest character around and would as has already been suggested probably get rid of Dr. Gero and #19 before #17 & #18 could get released.

[RandomGuy96]

Kuririn was surprised that Piccolo could fight against the Artificial Humans that, to his knowledge, had killed Super Saiyans in the future.

Krillin can also sense ki, yet was still awed by his power, and acted like only a SS should be this strong.

He didn't compare them, he said that they were both very strong. And compared to him, Piccolo was very strong.

He said that they both powered up extraordinarily.

#19 had taken the energy of sick SS Goku, and as we saw when Vegeta came, he wasn't anywhere near the level of a Super Saiyan. Piccolo was also the 2nd strongest there, so he was the only one that could provide some help to Goku.

Actually, he was. He was shown as being strong enough to make Vegeta, the strongest SS at the time, bleed. Meaning he was pretty close to the Super Saiyans.

And? #20 was also nowhere near a Super Saiyan. He hadn't even absorbed power from anyone strong, he had only absorbed all of Yamcha, a normal ki blast from SS Vegeta, and some power from a suppressed Piccolo.

He was strong enough to impress SS Vegeta with his speed.

What implications?

Piccolo stating he thinks he can beat the androids that can stomp Super Saiyans and considering the possibility that he became too strong for those same androids.

If the original Namekian was at 100, then Kami & Daimao would be 50 & 50 respectively. Meaning that if Piccolo was at 1.000.000, and Kami was at 60, then Merged Piccolo would be at 1.000.060.

Or it just always multiplies by two; it can't be additive, we know for a fact.

[Rocketman]

Krillin can also sense ki, yet was still awed by his power, and acted like only a SS should be this strong.

That just means Piccolo is above 3 million.

[RandomGuy96]

Krillin can also sense ki, yet was still awed by his power, and acted like only a SS should be this strong.

That just means Piccolo is above 3 million.

I could've sworn there were two other non-saiyan characters with battle powers far above 3 million.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Krillin can also sense ki, yet was still awed by his power, and acted like only a SS should be this strong.

No, he wasn't awed by his power, he was awed by his feat. He was surprised that he wasn't even a SS, and he was beating the Artificial Human that, to his knowledge, had killed Super Saiyans in the future. And just because he can sense ki doesn't mean that he always measures & compares BPs on sight. Ki Sensing doesn't work like that. Remember when Kuririn thought that Goku was strong enough to beat Freeza just because he was stronger than he was before? Or when Piccolo thought that base, and then SS, Gotenks could beat Boo just because he was stronger than before?

He said that they both powered up extraordinarily.

Which means that they are very strong, which is true, Piccolo is apparently stronger than the base Saiyans, and all the Earthlings. But that doesn't make him close to the Super Saiyans.

Actually, he was. He was shown as being strong enough to make Vegeta, the strongest SS at the time, bleed. Meaning he was pretty close to the Super Saiyans.

He made Vegeta bleed because Vegeta allowed him to do so. 50% Freeza also made Goku bleed in a similar way, and we know their difference.

Piccolo stating he thinks he can beat the androids that can stomp Super Saiyans and considering the possibility that he became too strong for those same androids.

Again, you are under the assumption that Ki Sensing works like scouters. If you were Piccolo, and you were kicking their asses, which would have been your first thought? This: "It seems that I got stronger than you!", or this: "It seems that I got stronger than you! Meaning that I'm stronger than SS Trunks! But wait, I've sensed his ki, how do I compare with him again? *thinks* Oh, I'm above/below that!". Let's be realistic for a while.

Or it just always multiplies by two; it can't be additive, we know for a fact.

Or, don't take Saichouro's statement as if he is talking literally about battle powers.

[RandomGuy96]

No, he wasn't awed by his power, he was awed by his feat. He was surprised that he wasn't even a SS, and he was beating the Artificial Human that, to his knowledge, had killed Super Saiyans in the future. And just because he can sense ki doesn't mean that he always measures & compares BPs on sight. Ki Sensing doesn't work like that. Remember when Kuririn thought that Goku was strong enough to beat Freeza just because he was stronger than he was before? Or when Piccolo thought that base, and then SS, Gotenks could beat Boo just because he was stronger than before?

Where's your proof of any of that? Because what I see is someone who can sense ki, who prides himself in his ability to accurately sense how strong people are, comparing Piccolo to a Super Saiyan. He doesn't even say that he's impressed by Piccolo's pwnage of the android, just that he's so strong in general.

Gags. That, or base Gotenks is genuinely stronger than SS Gotenks prior to the ROSAT trip.

He made Vegeta bleed because Vegeta allowed him to do so. 50% Freeza also made Goku bleed in a similar way, and we know their difference.

Nope. If the difference was large enough, there would be no blood, even if Vegeta did let himself get punched. ~70% Freeza made him bleed slightly with an amplified ki blast to the face. It's not the same thing as making someone bleed with a punch (see also Semi-Cell punching Vegeta in that same arc).

Again, you are under the assumption that Ki Sensing works like scouters. If you were Piccolo, and you were kicking their asses, which would have been your first thought? This: "It seems that I got stronger than you!", or this: "It seems that I got stronger than you! Meaning that I'm stronger than SS Trunks! But wait, I've sensed his ki, how do I compare with him again? *thinks* Oh, I'm above/below that!". Let's be realistic for a while.

Yes, let's be realistic. Do you think Piccolo was thinking "I've become so strong that, even though I'm much weaker than Trunks, I've become too strong for opponents far stronger than Trunks"? Not to mention that he says he doesn't lack confidence against these androids before facing them. In the anime, he even directly says that he thinks he can beat the androids that are supposed to be stronger than Trunks.

[Low Tone G]

I think Piccolo would were on par with SSJ Goku on Namek if he fwould have fused with Kami then. I remember the Elder Guru said that a Super Saiyan could have defeated the Nameless Namekian as he was the most powerful Namek. So if Piccolo did some progres on his own that he could be was powerful as SSJ Namek Goku.

If so Piccolo would be enough for Mecha Frieza and King Cold combined except these two would have had a fight one after another with Kamiccolo. But after Piccolo new strength earned from the training with Goku fused Piccolo could have been enough for Cyborg 17.

[Rocketman]

Where's your proof of any of that? Because what I see is someone who can sense ki, who prides himself in his ability to accurately sense how strong people are, comparing Piccolo to a Super Saiyan.

There is nothing else he can compare Piccolo to.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where's your proof of any of that? Because what I see is someone who can sense ki, who prides himself in his ability to accurately sense how strong people are, comparing Piccolo to a Super Saiyan. He doesn't even say that he's impressed by Piccolo's pwnage of the android, just that he's so strong in general.

Thinking about it, it can be either way. Kuririn said nothing about Piccolo's ki after all, and just because he can sense ki, doesn't mean that he is always measuring & comparing ki in his head, because he isn't a scouter. IMO, the most logical interpretation is that Kuririn is impressed with Piccolo's feat of beating the Artificial Human that had supposedly killed Super Saiyans. He is impressed that he is doing something that even Super Saiyans couldn't do.

Gags. That, or base Gotenks is genuinely stronger than SS Gotenks prior to the ROSAT trip.

The Goku vs Freeza thing was not a gag, and even the Gotenks vs Boo thing can be justified with in-universe explanation.

Nope. If the difference was large enough, there would be no blood, even if Vegeta did let himself get punched. ~70% Freeza made him bleed slightly with an amplified ki blast to the face. It's not the same thing as making someone bleed with a punch (see also Semi-Cell punching Vegeta in that same arc).

That was still 50% Freeza, and where do you know that it's an amplified technique? It's a normal ki blast from his finger.

Yes, let's be realistic. Do you think Piccolo was thinking "I've become so strong that, even though I'm much weaker than Trunks, I've become too strong for opponents far stronger than Trunks"? Not to mention that he says he doesn't lack confidence against these androids before facing them. In the anime, he even directly says that he thinks he can beat the androids that are supposed to be stronger than Trunks.

I don't think he was thinking making so many complicated thoughts, he thought what anyone would think for the first moments. Plus, he said "you are either pathetic or I'm got too strong for you", and a few moments later, we learn that they are actually pathetic, and not the real threat.

[RandomGuy96]

There is nothing else he can compare Piccolo to.

Except Freeza and Cold.

Thinking about it, it can be either way. Kuririn said nothing about Piccolo's ki after all, and just because he can sense ki, doesn't mean that he is always measuring & comparing ki in his head, because he isn't a scouter. IMO, the most logical interpretation is that Kuririn is impressed with Piccolo's feat of beating the Artificial Human that had supposedly killed Super Saiyans. He is impressed that he is doing something that even Super Saiyans couldn't do.

He specifically said that Piccolo was super strong. He said nothing about being impressed by what he was doing.

The Goku vs Freeza thing was not a gag, and even the Gotenks vs Boo thing can be justified with in-universe explanation.

I was speaking of the Gotenks stuff, which was most definitely a gag.

That was still 50% Freeza, and where do you know that it's an amplified technique? It's a normal ki blast from his finger.

No it wasn't. After Goku saw Freeza block the x20 Kamehameha (it looked like he was about to get overwhelmed at first and was clearly worried, but then he just suddenly is able to brush it off with minor damage), he went from "Freeza's totally bluffing about using 50%" to "oh my gosh, he really was just using 50%!" heavily implying a power up.

Nope. Freeza had just thrown a bunch of generic ki blasts at Goku to absolutely no effect, yet was still confident that one Death Beam would totally mess him up, obviously indicating it's an attack beyond his regular battle power.

I don't think he was thinking making so many complicated thoughts, he thought what anyone would think for the first moments. Plus, he said "you are either pathetic or I'm got too strong for you", and a few moments later, we learn that they are actually pathetic, and not the real threat.

It's not complicated at all. If he was still weaker than Trunks, he wouldn't have said that maybe he had gotten too strong for the androids that are stronger than Trunks. That, along with him stating he thought he could beat the androids before he even encountered them (going solely off what Trunks told him), should count as a direct statement for Piccolo > SS Trunks [Mecha arc].

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He specifically said that Piccolo was super strong. He said nothing about being impressed by what he was doing.

He was saying that while Piccolo was beating #20.

No it wasn't. After Goku saw Freeza block the x20 Kamehameha (it looked like he was about to get overwhelmed at first and was clearly worried, but then he just suddenly is able to brush it off with minor damage), he went from "Freeza's totally bluffing about using 50%" to "oh my gosh, he really was just using 50%!" heavily implying a power up.

How does this imply a power up? It only means that Freeza was telling the truth, and was really using 50% of his power.

Nope. Freeza had just thrown a bunch of generic ki blasts at Goku to absolutely no effect, yet was still confident that one Death Beam would totally mess him up, obviously indicating it's an attack beyond his regular battle power.

This is because of their highest piercing power.

It's not complicated at all. If he was still weaker than Trunks, he wouldn't have said that maybe he had gotten too strong for the androids that are stronger than Trunks. That, along with him stating he thought he could beat the androids before he even encountered them (going solely off what Trunks told him), should count as a direct statement for Piccolo > SS Trunks [Mecha arc].

That is, if Piccolo was correct about what he said. Which we learn later that the Artificial Humans he was fighting are just weak.

[RandomGuy96]

He was saying that while Piccolo was beating #20.

And?

How does this imply a power up? It only means that Freeza was telling the truth, and was really using 50% of his power.

How would Goku know that if Freeza hadn't used more power?

This is because of their highest piercing power.

Proof? Plus piercing power doesn't matter THAT much when someone's that much stronger than you.

That is, if Piccolo was correct about what he said. Which we learn later that the Artificial Humans he was fighting are just weak.

Piccolo doesn't have to be correct about these artificial humans being as strong as the ones Trunks warned about. He just has to be not completely and utterly brain dead, so he doesn't somehow think he's stronger than Trunks and weaker than Trunks at the same time.