Stat Rankings

[TheGmGoken]

. I'm talking battle smarts. Seeing as Gohan to me was never that good of a fighter I'm OK with it. Maybe I should give him a 6.5 or 7. I gave Future Trunks a low score because of his whole POWER IS EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! He had going on. I also have Goten better in hand to hand because I never saw Vegeta as a hand to hand fighter. Seems more of ki whore or power house. Which is why even humans is higher. My list doesn't portray Goten as a master fighter nor a genius. At best he's average.

Except that Vegeta is considered a master. One of the top 3 in the universe, according to the old Kaioshin. Unless you consider Goten to be one of those 3, then he's not a better fighter than Vegeta.

What does Goten actually demonstrate that makes him a good hand to hand fighter, anyway?

Did Old Kai say top 3 hand to hand or Top 3 strongest/Powerful. Top 3 useful. Give me a quote please. I'm curious though why you say my list implied Goten being a master or genius. All of his stats besides the outliner were average. I think Yamcha had better stats. I have Goten at 7 at hand to hand. Same as Gohan who trained Goten. Also Goten play fighting with Trunks as well. He also could hang with Gohan in fighting. Pretty sure he's good. Also Chi Chi taught him some basics

[Kamiccolo9]

. I'm talking battle smarts. Seeing as Gohan to me was never that good of a fighter I'm OK with it. Maybe I should give him a 6.5 or 7. I gave Future Trunks a low score because of his whole POWER IS EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! He had going on. I also have Goten better in hand to hand because I never saw Vegeta as a hand to hand fighter. Seems more of ki whore or power house. Which is why even humans is higher. My list doesn't portray Goten as a master fighter nor a genius. At best he's average.

Except that Vegeta is considered a master. One of the top 3 in the universe, according to the old Kaioshin. Unless you consider Goten to be one of those 3, then he's not a better fighter than Vegeta.

What does Goten actually demonstrate that makes him a good hand to hand fighter, anyway?

Did Old Kai say top 3 hand to hand or Top 3 strongest/Powerful. Top 3 useful. Give me a quote please. I'm curious though why you say my list implied Goten being a master or genius. All of his stats besides the outliner were average. I think Yamcha had better stats. I have Goten at 7 at hand to hand. Same as Gohan who trained Goten. Also Goten play fighting with Trunks as well. He also could hang with Gohan in fighting. Pretty sure he's good. Also Chi Chi taught him some basics

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

He says "masters," not "strongest," or "powerful." You put an 7 year old kid with hardly any real training or battlefield experience as a more skilled fighter than a Saiyan who had been fighting for decades. Being able to roughly fight evenly with a rusty Gohan who hadn't trained in 7 years does not make him a superior hand to hand combatant than Vegeta. Or even kid Trunks, who, you know, actually beat Goten.

[TheGmGoken]

Being a master doesn't include just hand to hand. Its all around. Yes Trunks beat Goten. So? Vegeta beat Goku. Is Vegeta better at hand to hand? Trunks had power and strength advantage.

Vegeta specialist is in Ki and power. Not hand to hand. What's your list. Because if you're debating Goten then you should debate the humans and piccolo. Old Kai said living and dead. The humans was dead. Debate Goten then debate the humans

[Kamiccolo9]

Being a master doesn't include just hand to hand. Its all around. Yes Trunks beat Goten. So? Vegeta beat Goku. Is Vegeta better at hand to hand? Trunks had power and strength advantage.

Vegeta specialist is in Ki and power. Not hand to hand. What's your list. Because if you're debating Goten then you should debate the humans and piccolo. Old Kai said living and dead. The humans was dead. Debate Goten then debate the humans

Vegeta may be better at hand to hand than Goku. That's actually arguable, unlike putting Goten anywhere near the two of them. Show me anything that says that Vegeta specializes in "ki and power." Or anything that can even remotely be construed as evidence that Goten is a superior hand-to-hand fighter than he is.

The second part of your post makes no sense. I don't care about the Earthlings. I'm criticizing your placement of Goten as compared to Vegeta. Piccolo, Tien, and the others don't have anything to do with it.

[TheGmGoken]

Being a master doesn't include just hand to hand. Its all around. Yes Trunks beat Goten. So? Vegeta beat Goku. Is Vegeta better at hand to hand? Trunks had power and strength advantage.

Vegeta specialist is in Ki and power. Not hand to hand. What's your list. Because if you're debating Goten then you should debate the humans and piccolo. Old Kai said living and dead. The humans was dead. Debate Goten then debate the humans

Vegeta may be better at hand to hand than Goku. That's actually arguable, unlike putting Goten anywhere near the two of them. Show me anything that says that Vegeta specializes in "ki and power." Or anything that can even remotely be construed as evidence that Goten is a superior hand-to-hand fighter than he is.

The second part of your post makes no sense.

OK lemme explain my second part. Sorry my English sucks. I place the humans above Vegeta and Goten. If you're debating Goten then you should debate the humans as well .

OK let's look at the fights. Most of Vegeta fights tend to have more ki attacks and more ki strategy. Goku fights tend to be more hand to hand with KI as the finisher. Even mixing in with hand to hand(feet kamehameha). Hence why I drew the conclusion of Vegeta being a kind specialist and Goku being a hand to hand master.

Once again. May I see your list.

[Kamiccolo9]

Being a master doesn't include just hand to hand. Its all around. Yes Trunks beat Goten. So? Vegeta beat Goku. Is Vegeta better at hand to hand? Trunks had power and strength advantage.

Vegeta specialist is in Ki and power. Not hand to hand. What's your list. Because if you're debating Goten then you should debate the humans and piccolo. Old Kai said living and dead. The humans was dead. Debate Goten then debate the humans

Vegeta may be better at hand to hand than Goku. That's actually arguable, unlike putting Goten anywhere near the two of them. Show me anything that says that Vegeta specializes in "ki and power." Or anything that can even remotely be construed as evidence that Goten is a superior hand-to-hand fighter than he is.

The second part of your post makes no sense.

OK lemme explain my second part. Sorry my English sucks. I place the humans above Vegeta and Goten. If you're debating Goten then you should debate the humans as well .

OK let's look at the fights. Most of Vegeta fights tend to have more ki attacks and more ki strategy. Goku fights tend to be more hand to hand with KI as the finisher. Even mixing in with hand to hand(feet kamehameha). Hence why I drew the conclusion of Vegeta being a kind specialist and Goku being a hand to hand master.

Once again. May I see your list.

None of which explains how Goten is this fantastic hand-to-hand combatant that you claim he is.

No, I'm not debating the Earthlings. I don't care about them. They have nothing to do with this. Goten wouldn't be anywhere near them either, in my opinion. He has had no real training, and has zero actual fighting experience aside from his sparring with Trunks.

Vegeta uses a grand total of two ki attacks in the fight against Goku (in base), unless you count that power ball he creates. He uses one mouth blast as an Oozaru if I recal correctly.

He doesn't use any ki attack in his fight against Gohan.

Against Kui, he punches him, then blows him up.

Against Dodoria, he has a quick physical exchange, followed by a ki finisher.

In his first fight with Zarbon, he uses no ki attacks.

The second fight is a mix of ki and physical attacks, same with his fight with Recoome.

The fight with Jeice only has one ki attack, used as a finisher. He uses no ki attacks when beating up on Ginyu.

None of his fights with Freeza last long enough to be of any note. Do see, however, that he chooses to engage Freeza in hand-to-hand combat though, not by firing a ki attack at him.

Against 19, he obviously resorts to hand-to-hand fighting, using only a ki finisher.

The fight with 18 has 3 ki attacks, one of which is stated to be Vegeta playing around, one used once his arm was broken and he was no longer capable of hand-to-hand combat.

He uses no ki attacks against Semi-Perfect Cell, and only the Final Flash against his perfect form.

I don't have the issues where he fights the Cell Jr., but I doubt it really matters.

He uses one blast against Pui-Pui.

None during his rematch with Goku.

One against Fat Buu. 2 if you count his Final Explosion.

And finally, he unleashes on barrage of ki blasts against Pure Buu.


So please, show me where, in any of these fights, that Vegeta is somewhat deficient in his hand-to-hand combat ability? What does Goten have that matches anything that Vegeta has done? Goten is a 7 year old boy that plays around. Vegeta is a trained, hardened fighter.

[TheGmGoken]

Goten ranks below everyone except two people. Far from fantastic if you ask me. No where did I imply that Goten is the ULTIMATE ULTRA MASTER hand to hand guy like you think I'm doing. This has to do with stats. Earthlings do have something to do with this. If Vegeta a master shouldn't he be above everyone save Piccolo or Goku on everyone list? Looking at everyone list Vegeta isn't far from Goten and isn't very high.

Vegeta powerhouse over Goku. Garlic canon. Fire Ball thingy that burns. Oozaru Blaster. And generic kind attack as Ape
Use spam No on Gohan. And Super Explosive wave on the gang.

He used a special kind attack on Kiwi in which I started to think he was a kind specialist. He power house Zarbon. And so forth.


Besides 18. He just power house his foes and didn't need hand to hand skills. Its like saying Broly had hand to hand skills. No. He just didn't need them. I don't use Majin Vegeta vs Goku as we missed most of the fight in manga.

Goten had two fights. Each he couldn't powerhouse in them
Basically. I believe Goten is better at hand to hand but lacks experience and immature. With a guide he'll do good

Goten training including Chi Chi ( who Roshi complimented. ) and Gohan(trained by Goku and Piccolo).

[ososdenoche]

I'm basically ranking them with all appearances (besides GT I guess) in mind.

Totals do not include clutch factor.

Goku

Ki Techniques: 9.3
Hand to hand: 9.5
Intelligence: 8.7
Overall Strength: 9.8
Overall Speed: 9.4
Durability: 9.5
Clutch Factor: A billion
Average: 9.40

Vegeta

Ki Techniques: 9.6
Hand to hand: 8.9
Intelligence: 9.0
Overall Strength: 9.3
Overall Speed: 9.4
Durability: 9.7
Clutch Factor: eh
Average: 9.32

Gohan

Ki Techniques: 8.7
Hand to hand: 9.3
Intelligence: 9.2
Overall Strength: 9.6
Overall Speed: 9.3
Durability: 8.8
Clutch Factor: He's ok
Average: 9.15

Piccolo

Ki Techniques: 9.6
Hand to hand: 9.1
Intelligence: 9.5
Overall Strength: 8.1
Overall Speed: 8.5
Durability: 8.4
Clutch factor: Not too shabby
Average: 8.77

Future Trunks

Ki Techniques: 8.5
Hand to hand: 9.3
Intelligence: 8.5
Overall Strength: 8.3
Overall Speed: 8.2
Durability: 8.5
Clutch factor: Good.
Average: 8.55

Trunks

Ki Techniques: 6.8
Hand to hand: 8.0
Intelligence (considering age): 8.2
Overall Strength: 6.9
Overall Speed: 6.4
Durability: 5.0
Clutch factor: Child
Average: 6.88

Goten

Ki Techniques: 6.3
Hand to hand: 8.3
Intelligence (considering age): 7.0
Overall Strength: 6.3
Overall Speed: 6.8
Durability: 5.2
Clutch factor: Child
Average: 6.65

Krillin

Ki Techniques: 9.2
Hand to hand: 8.9
Intelligence: 8.9
Overall Strength: 4.8
Overall Speed: 6.2
Durability: 7.7
Clutch factor: helpful in victory and defeat
Average: 7.62

Tenshinhan

Ki Techniques: 9.4
Hand to hand: 9.0
Intelligence: 9.2
Overall Strength: 5.7
Overall Speed: 5.0
Durability: 8.1
Clutch factor: Nice.
Average: 7.73

Yamucha

Ki Techniques: 8.9
Hand to hand: 8.6
Intelligence: 7.5
Overall Strength: 4.6
Overall Speed: 5.1
Durability: 2.5
Clutch factor: no
Average: 6.2

Before someone gets all pissed, keep in mind that I'm trying to keep a consistent measurement of a very inconsistent idea. I give the humans high scores in certain areas--they might not actually be able to knock out Trunks or Goten with strikes, but I'm measuring it more as a proportion to comparable powers, both throughout the show and relative to the specific sagas in which the character was relevant.

[Kamiccolo9]

Goten ranks below everyone except two people. Far from fantastic if you ask me. No where did I imply that Goten is the ULTIMATE ULTRA MASTER hand to hand guy like you think I'm doing. This has to do with stats. Earthlings do have something to do with this. If Vegeta a master shouldn't he be above everyone save Piccolo or Goku on everyone list? Looking at everyone list Vegeta isn't far from Goten and isn't very high.

Vegeta powerhouse over Goku. Garlic canon. Fire Ball thingy that burns. Oozaru Blaster. And generic kind attack as Ape
Use spam No on Gohan. And Super Explosive wave on the gang.

He used a special kind attack on Kiwi in which I started to think he was a kind specialist. He power house Zarbon. And so forth.


Besides 18. He just power house his foes and didn't need hand to hand skills. Its like saying Broly had hand to hand skills. No. He just didn't need them. I don't use Majin Vegeta vs Goku as we missed most of the fight in manga.

Goten had two fights. Each he couldn't powerhouse in them
Basically. I believe Goten is better at hand to hand but lacks experience and immature. With a guide he'll do good

Goten training including Chi Chi ( who Roshi complimented. ) and Gohan(trained by Goku and Piccolo).

"Powerhouse" isn't a verb.

Every character has ki finishers. Vegeta is no more or less a "ki based fighter" than anyone else in the series. Goten has done nothing to indicate that he is a better hand-to-hand combatant than Vegeta, and common sense dictates that a 7 year old kid with no real fighting experience isn't anywhere near as good a fighter as a seasoned combat veteran. The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise, and you've shown that you are incapable of doing so. Therefore, I'm done here. I've provided more than enough evidence to show that Vegeta is not deficient in his hand-to-hand combat ability, and you are unable to refute it.

[TheGmGoken]

Power housing through his foes you know what I mean. Like over powering. When did I say characters didn't have kind finishers. There's a reason why all of them are ranked high on the list. I didn't say Goten a better fighter. My last post Says that. I'm not saying Vegeta deficient. I'm saying unlike others Vegeta never shown me great hand to hand skills. He just over powers his foes. I asked you MANY times to just make your own list as the thread says. Them we can compare. You haven't explain anything. You just stated how many times Vegeta over powers and how many time he used in.

[Vice]

For the record, here is how I have them:

Goku

Ki Techniques: 9
Hand-to-Hand: 10
Intelligence: 8
Strength: 8
Speed: 10
Durability: 9


Gohan

Ki Techniques: 8
Hand-to-Hand: 7
Intelligence: 9
Strength: 10
Speed: 10
Durability: 7


Vegeta

Ki Techniques: 8
Hand-to-Hand: 9
Intelligence: 9
Strength: 6
Speed: 8
Durability: 9


Piccolo

Ki Techniques: 9
Hand-to-Hand: 9
Intelligence: 10
Strength: 5
Speed: 7
Durability: 7


Future Trunks

Ki Techniques: 6
Hand-to-Hand: 7
Intelligence: 8
Strength: 5
Speed: 8
Durability: 7


Kid Trunks

Ki Techniques: 4
Hand-to-Hand: 4
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 4
Speed: 6
Durability: 5


Goten

Ki Techniques: 3
Hand-to-Hand: 4
Intelligence: 4
Strength: 4
Speed: 6
Durability: 5


Krillin

Ki Techniques: 8
Hand-to-Hand: 8
Intelligence: 9
Strength: 2
Speed: 3
Durability: 5


Tien

Ki Techniques: 10
Hand-to-Hand: 9
Intelligence: 9
Strength: 2
Speed: 3
Durability: 6


Yamcha

Ki Techniques: 8
Hand-to-Hand: 8
Intelligence: 6
Strength: 1
Speed: 2
Durability: 4


Super Buu

Ki Techniques: 10
Hand-to-Hand: 6
Intelligence: 3
Strength: 10
Speed: 10
Durability: 10


Kid Buu

Ki Techniques: 10
Hand-to-Hand: 6
Intelligence: 3
Strength: 8
Speed: 10
Durability: 10


Fat Buu

Ki Techniques: 10
Hand-to-Hand: 5
Intelligence: 2
Strength: 7
Speed: 7
Durability: 10


Perfect Cell

Ki Techniques: 10
Hand-to-Hand: 10
Intelligence: 9
Strength: 6
Speed: 8
Durability: 10


Freeza

Ki Techniques: 7
Hand-to-Hand: 9
Intelligence: 9
Strength: 4
Speed: 6
Durability: 9

[RandomGuy96]

Goku

Ki Techniques: 9 [varied and useful arsenal]
Hand-to-Hand: 10 [probably the best one in the series]
Intelligence: 5 [tactically smart, dumb everywhere else]
Durability: 7 [surprisingly, doesn't have the durability 'feats' of his son and enemies]


Gohan

Ki Techniques: 6 [proficient, but not remarkable]
Hand-to-Hand: 7 [he's been trained by Piccolo and Goku, so he must have some skill in this area; he shows a bit vs Vegeta]
Intelligence: 7 [book smart, and can occasionally show combat skill, but otherwise fairly mediocre in that department]
Durability: 8 [lasted a very long time against Buutenks and Vegeta]


Vegeta

Ki Techniques: 7 [fairly solid and powerful moves, but lacks variety]
Hand-to-Hand: 9 [battle hardened warrior, almost exactly as skilled as Goku]
Intelligence: 9 [villain], 4 [anti-hero] [I feel that it's worth distinguishing, as he's pretty smart in the Saiyan and Namek arcs, yet a total moron later on, continually making stupid decisions and only winning fights via brute strength]
Durability: 8 [one tough mofo]


Piccolo

Ki Techniques: 8 [has some pretty strong techniques, and good variety]
Hand-to-Hand: 8 [I assume he's similar to Goku, plus he can stretch and has superior senses, that has to be worth something]
Intelligence: 5 [can make dumb and smart decisions in equal measures in combat, but outside of it he tends towards dumb, especially without Kami absorbed]
Durability: 8 [well, he CAN regenerate, but it's of limited practical application when senzus are prolific; also, he survived a Super Kamehameha to the face]


Future Trunks

Ki Techniques: 4 [showed absolutely nothing noteworthy, and I'm not even sure he can amplify his ki... he probably can, though]
Hand-to-Hand: 3 [I assume his training with Gohan and Vegeta gave him SOMETHING... but we never do see it...]
Intelligence: 5 [aside from his cautious approaches to Freeza and Cell, he tends to make impulsive and irrational decisions, and his inexperience is repeatedly emphasized]
Durability: 6 [seemingly the least durable of the saiyans; at least, he has the fewest feats, what with getting taken out in one blow by any noticeably stronger opponent]


Kid Trunks

Ki Techniques: 4.5 [at least he can suppress his SS battle power, and I'm just going by my gut here, but I assume that the Final Flash-esque attack he used at the Budokai is stronger than those generic ki blasts Future Trunks could use]
Hand-to-Hand: 3.5 [trained with his father longer than the other Trunks, and actually won a fight on somewhat even terms]
Intelligence: 3.5 [he's a kid]
Durability: 10+ [survived a punch from an angered Super Buu in base form]


Goten

Ki Techniques: 4 [can't even fly until Goten teaches him, and is clearly not as good with the Kamehameha as the other users]
Hand-to-Hand: 3 [that brief month or so of training with Gohan, plus his play fighting with Trunks, is all he has. He's still a work in progress, or he would be if he trained more...]
Intelligence: 3 [he's a kid, and seems to be a follower rather than a leader]
Durability: 6 [standard saiyan]


Krillin

Ki Techniques: 8 [Kienzan is overrated, but he still has many powerful techniques, and knows how to use them]
Hand-to-Hand: 10+ [possessed enough skill to turn a simple rock into a weapon powerful enough to damage a mastered Super Saiyan; just think what would have happened if he had a rock when the androids were here]
Intelligence: 9 [aside from one big mistake, Krillin is one of the smartest Z-fighters, if not THE smartest; he constantly uses his brain to make up for his lack of power]
Durability: 5 [human]

Yamcha

Ki Techniques: 5 [has only two real ki attacks; both are basically generic techniques every other character can use. He seems to really suck with the Kamehameha, given he couldn't even kill a Cultivar with it, though perhaps he could form a stronger one if given enough time]
Hand-to-Hand: 6 [meh]
Intelligence: 8 [actually one of the smarter teammates, aside from a few infamous blunders]
Durability: 5 [human]

Tenshinhan

Ki Techniques: 8 [has a bunch of flashy and useless techniques, but also has super useful moves like the Solar Flare, Dodonpa, and Kikoho]
Hand-to-Hand: 8 [was only able to match a teenage Goku hand to hand... but that's more than can be said for most]
Intelligence: 7 [not really sure, he doesn't do much]
Durability: 6 [human, but with the added perk of being able to regrow limbs, which is convenient if they get punched off]


Super Buu

Ki Techniques: 10 [can copy anything he sees... so yeah. This would include the Kamehameha, Super Donuts, Kienzan, Kamikaze Ghosts, Suicide Explosion, etc.]
Hand-to-Hand: 7 [never really seen, but since he absorbed two gods, he probably has something in this department. His real strengths lie in the advantages his body gives to him in close combat]
Intelligence: 9 [a proficient planner who is easily able to trick the dumb heroes, and he possesses some battle smarts as well]
Durability: 10+ [regeneration and nearly infinite stamina = unbeatable at equals battle powers]


Kid Buu

Ki Techniques: 9 [theoretically as capable as Super Buu, but doesn't show it off as much]
Hand-to-Hand: 7 [well, he as matching Goku, but that had more to do with other factors. His body's flexibility should also be a help in this department; yay for long range punches! Makes up for lack of 'intelligence' with surprisingly creative use of his elastic body]
Intelligence: 3 [a feral beast... but he can still copy techniques, saving him from being a one or two]
Durability: 10+ [ditto]


Fat Buu

Ki Techniques: 9 [ditto]
Hand-to-Hand: 6 [stretchy punches ftw; also, throwing pieces of yourself at the enemy]
Intelligence: 4 [has the mind of a child, but like the other Buus, is praised for his ability to copy techniques]
Durability: 10 [has a bit more trouble regenerating than the other Buus, but can still do it]


Perfect Cell

Ki Techniques: 9 [the only thing keeping him from being a full ten is his inability to copy anything he sees]
Hand-to-Hand: 9 [has the hand to hand skills of the Saiyan arc Z-fighters]
Intelligence: 4 [quite stupid, which is why he ended up dying]
Durability: 9 [has a hard exoskeleton and regeneration, but it's not on par with the the Buus]


Freeza

Ki Techniques: 8 [surprisingly versatile]
Hand-to-Hand: 5 [???]
Intelligence: 6 [had enough foresight to kill the saiyans, but his arrogance still led to his downfall]
Durability: 8.5 [survived being cut in half and hit with SS Goku's full power, and then manage to survive the planet exploding in his face with next to no ki left]