Piccolo merges with Kami earlier

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The emphasis is on Piccolo's power and the special training he did to gain that power. There'd be no other way for Krillin to gauge his power outside of his mauling of #20. Sure he was doing something only Super Saiyans were supposed to be capable of, but this does not take away from Piccolo's leap in power.

I think he's stronger than Super Saiyan Goku was when he fought #19, but weaker than all 3 of the Super Saiyans when they're at their best.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And?

He was judging with his eyes, not his senses. According to his eyes, Piccolo was beating a guy that had killed Super Saiyans.

How would Goku know that if Freeza hadn't used more power?

Because he didn't? If Freeza had powered up, Goku would have said that Freeza's power rose, not that he is telling the truth about his power being so big.

Proof?

Well, it is used to pierce people's hearts?

Plus piercing power doesn't matter THAT much when someone's that much stronger than you.

What do you mean by "THAT much"? It was just a scratch, no real damage.

Piccolo doesn't have to be correct about these artificial humans being as strong as the ones Trunks warned about. He just has to be not completely and utterly brain dead, so he doesn't somehow think he's stronger than Trunks and weaker than Trunks at the same time.

Except if he doesn't have Trunks in his mind? He had just cut #20's arm with his freaking hand, of course he would think that he is stronger than them.

[RandomGuy96]

He was judging with his eyes, not his senses. According to his eyes, Piccolo was beating a guy that had killed Super Saiyans.

Again, where's your proof? Why did he just say Piccolo was strong rather than specifically saying he was awed by Piccolo beating an android that could beat a Super Saiyan? The latter seems more important.

Because he didn't? If Freeza had powered up, Goku would have said that Freeza's power rose, not that he is telling the truth about his power being so big.

Goku said that Freeza wasn't bluffing about holding back earlier. I'm not sure what else that's supposed to mean other than that he's using more now.

Well, it is used to pierce people's hearts?

He used it once to pierce a 90% dead Vegeta. Any attack can pierce anyone if it's strong enough (see, for example, Vegeta making huge holes in Cell and Buu). So I ask again, where is your proof that it wasn't beyond his regular battle power, when it was plainly shown to be stronger than his other attacks?

What do you mean by "THAT much"? It was just a scratch, no real damage.

It wouldn't be enough to take an attack from "unable to even make the opponent flinch" to "can flinch opponent and make them bleed". Freeza was totally confident that he could kill Goku with one of those beams, even though he could tank regular attacks like nothing. The Death Beam is far stronger than one of Freeza's generic attacks.

Except if he doesn't have Trunks in his mind? He had just cut #20's arm with his freaking hand, of course he would think that he is stronger than them.

The whole reason these androids ARE a big deal is that they're stronger than Super Saiyans. Piccolo cannot think he's both stronger than a Super Saiyan and weaker than a Super Saiyan. Piccolo's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he's not completely and utterly brain dead (especially since he stated earlier that he had confidence he could win against the cyborgs that can crush Trunks).

[Mjb1985]

Piccolo in the Androids Saga does appear to be some ridiculous beast. I think he's a good deal stronger than Yardrat Goku, which is ridiculous, but nothing new that we have seen with this story.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again, where's your proof?

Again, I'm not saying that it's a fact, I said before that both of our interpretations are valid. I just believe that mine is more likely, and makes more sense because it keeps Piccolo lower.

Why did he just say Piccolo was strong rather than specifically saying he was awed by Piccolo beating an android that could beat a Super Saiyan? The latter seems more important.

He commented the strength Piccolo displayed in his fight, which was great enough to kill an Artificial Human that killed Super Saiyans.

Goku said that Freeza wasn't bluffing about holding back earlier. I'm not sure what else that's supposed to mean other than that he's using more now.

Freeza said that he was using 50% of his power, and Goku wanted to believe that he was bluffing. He saw his power, and accepted the truth that Freeza wasn't bluffing. If Freeza had powered up, then Goku wouldn't have said that he was using more power than before, not that he was telling the truth about the power he was using.

He used it once to pierce a 90% dead Vegeta. Any attack can pierce anyone if it's strong enough (see, for example, Vegeta making huge holes in Cell and Buu). So I ask again, where is your proof that it wasn't beyond his regular battle power, when it was plainly shown to be stronger than his other attacks?

The Daizenshuu classifies it as a finger version of the normal ki blasts. So, it looks more like that it has more piercing power because of it's form (like the Makankosappo had more piercing power because it was concentrated in Piccolo's fingers), rather than having an amplification. Plus, Freeza doesn't charge the attack to concentrate & amplify his ki, he just fires it in an instant.

The whole reason these androids ARE a big deal is that they're stronger than Super Saiyans. Piccolo cannot think he's both stronger than a Super Saiyan and weaker than a Super Saiyan. Piccolo's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he's not completely and utterly brain dead.

Again, that is if Piccolo has the Super Saiyans in his mind. He never mentioned them in the manga.

especially since he stated earlier that he had confidence he could win against the cyborgs that can crush Trunks

What?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Again, I'm not saying that it's a fact, I said before that both of our interpretations are valid. I just believe that mine is more likely, and makes more sense because it keeps Piccolo lower.

How low do you have Piccolo?

What?

Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

[Hitiro]

[quote="DBZGTOKSDH]Freeza said that he was using 50% of his power, and Goku wanted to believe that he was bluffing. He saw his power, and accepted the truth that Freeza wasn't bluffing. If Freeza had powered up, then Goku wouldn't have said that he was using more power than before, not that he was telling the truth about the power he was using.[/quote]Freeza pertained to Goku that he could beat him with half of his power. I don't think he said that he was actually using the 50% Goku only came to the realisation that he wasn't bluffing when Goku pushed him to use half, or maybe slightly more. Goku at the time was probably thinking that 40%-50% of Freeza's power would be his full power.[/quote]

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P2.3-6
Freeza: “You’re quite confident. But I’ve noticed that though you told me you’d fight seriously, you still have a considerable amount of power remaining…”
Goku: “So the jig’s up, huh?”
Freeza: “Even taking that into consideration, in my estimation… If I put out about 50%, that is to say, half of my maximum power, I'll be able to turn you into space dust..."

See the hypothetical "If"? Meaning he was still not using that amount yet.

Because he didn't? If Freeza had powered up, Goku would have said that Freeza's power rose, not that he is telling the truth about his power being so big.

Goku said that Freeza wasn't bluffing about holding back earlier. I'm not sure what else that's supposed to mean other than that he's using more now.

Freeza said he could beat Goku with half of his power. Goku had no way to determine the distance between Freeza's current suppressed Ki and his full power. We've seen it all the way through the manga that people can only understand they aren't using their full power. But not by how much. So Goku assumed that whatever power Freeza had in reserved wasn't that huge. Freeza was still using less than 50% up until that point and had to use more than 50% to block Goku's Kamehameha. So likely Goku was hoping that Freeza's 40%-50% was actually his full power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How low do you have Piccolo?

Far above the base Saiyans, but nowhere close to any Super Saiyan we'd seen, or Full Power Freeza.

What?

Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

This is a very generic statement. It could mean "I'm confident that I'll personally kick their asses!", or "I'm confident we're gonna make it from this".

See the hypothetical "If"? Meaning he was still not using that amount yet.

No, it means that he may or may not use that much of his power. The situation is like when we say "what will happen if I press this button? *presses the button*"

[Hitiro]

No, it means that he may or may not use that much of his power. The situation is like when we say "what will happen if I press this button? *presses the button*"

What I'm saying is that he hadn't been using 50% yet. But he thinks that if he were to output 50% he could beat him. You don't wonder what will happen after you press the button because you have already pressed it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Far above the base Saiyans, but nowhere close to any Super Saiyan we'd seen, or Full Power Freeza.

Piccolo's shown to be above (or at the very least, on the same level) Super Saiyan Goku was against #19, though. Even though Goku wasn't at his highest level, he was still considered quite powerful--and nearly beat all of the energy out of #19 using all of his effort. Piccolo defeated a more powerful #20 far more effectively. So unless you think Piccolo would've had a harder time against a weaker #19, I don't see how you can have Piccolo being weaker than 100% Freeza, who'd be demolished by that same Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I wasn't having sick SS Goku in my mind, I had the Super Saiyans at full power. Also, he was considered very powerful by Tenshinhan, who is below base Goku, and even Kuririn.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yes, but the same Tien sensed Goku 3 yrs before and acted like his Super Saiyan was the greatest thing ever once he saw it again. I doubt Goku was weaker than he was from 3 yrs before. Also, it's not like he was an utter weakling, either. Piccolo just says his power should be more stupendous than what he was showing, which makes sense because he'd know his capabilities from training with him.

[RandomGuy96]

He commented the strength Piccolo displayed in his fight, which was great enough to kill an Artificial Human that killed Super Saiyans.

But again: he didn't so much as mention that. He just said Piccolo was really strong.

Freeza said that he was using 50% of his power, and Goku wanted to believe that he was bluffing. He saw his power, and accepted the truth that Freeza wasn't bluffing. If Freeza had powered up, then Goku wouldn't have said that he was using more power than before, not that he was telling the truth about the power he was using.

Except he pretty much did. Saying Freeza wasn't bluffing about holding back earlier, should count as a statement that he's not holding back now. Otherwise, there's no way Goku could have possibly known that; he just saw Freeza struggle with, and take damage from, one of his attacks.

The Daizenshuu classifies it as a finger version of the normal ki blasts. So, it looks more like that it has more piercing power because of it's form (like the Makankosappo had more piercing power because it was concentrated in Piccolo's fingers), rather than having an amplification. Plus, Freeza doesn't charge the attack to concentrate & amplify his ki, he just fires it in an instant.

I don't really care. We plainly saw it being more powerful than normal ki blasts.

Again, I doubt that, or else everyone would just use piercing attacks all the time. Freeza thought that it would be above his normal attacks enough that it'd mess up Goku, even though everything else he tried did absolutely nothing, Goku didn't even flinch.

Again, that is if Piccolo has the Super Saiyans in his mind. He never mentioned them in the manga.

He knows that the androids he was warned about can kill Super Saiyans. That's the whole reason they're a big deal. Yet he's suddenly going to think he can defeat these androids despite being weaker than the ones the androids are supposed to be stronger than. What.

This is a very generic statement. It could mean "I'm confident that I'll personally kick their asses!", or "I'm confident we're gonna make it from this".

If you want a more direct statement, in the Japanese anime he directly says he's confident that he can personally beat them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes, but the same Tenshinhan sensed Goku 3 yrs before and acted like his Super Saiyan was the greatest thing ever once he saw it again. I doubt Goku was weaker than he was from 3 yrs before. Also, it's not like he was an utter weakling, either. Piccolo just says his power should be more stupendous than what he was showing, which makes sense because he'd know his capabilities from training with him.

But the SS Goku that Tenshinhan sensed back then wasn't fighting.

But again: he didn't so much as mention that. He just said Piccolo was really strong.

Ηe also didn't mention that he sensed his ki. We can't know if he judged Piccolo's strength with his eyes or his senses, so neither of us can prove what we say.

Except he pretty much did. Saying Freeza wasn't bluffing about holding back earlier, should count as a statement that he's not holding back now. Otherwise, there's no way Goku could have possibly known that; he just saw Freeza struggle with, and take damage from, one of his attacks.

So wait, what percent of his power do you think that Freeza was using?

I don't really care. We plainly saw it being more powerful than normal ki blasts.

The Kienzan is more powerful than normal ki blasts, but not because it has an amplification.

Again, I doubt that, or else everyone would just use piercing attacks all the time.

We saw in the beginning of Goku's & Freeza's fight that they are only useful against weak opponents.

He knows that the androids he was warned about can kill Super Saiyans. That's the whole reason they're a big deal. Yet he's suddenly going to think he can defeat these androids despite being weaker than the ones the androids are supposed to be stronger than. What.

He didn't think he could beat them, he was beating them. Even if he thought that he was stronger than SS Trunks from before, he thought that because he was beating the Artificial Human that was stronger than Trunks, but it turned out that the Artificial Human he was beating was a different, weaker one. So, he is wrong if he thinks that he is stronger than SS Trunks, or at least, we can't know if he is correct.

If you want a more direct statement, in the Japanese anime he directly says he's confident that he can personally beat them.

The anime can say whatever it wants, I never use it as a source for obvious reasons.

[Hitiro]

Yes, but the same Tenshinhan sensed Goku 3 yrs before and acted like his Super Saiyan was the greatest thing ever once he saw it again. I doubt Goku was weaker than he was from 3 yrs before. Also, it's not like he was an utter weakling, either. Piccolo just says his power should be more stupendous than what he was showing, which makes sense because he'd know his capabilities from training with him.

But the SS Goku that Tenshinhan sensed back then wasn't fighting.

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”

Goku's SSJ Ki was also considered amazing even before he started fighting too though. Not saying he wasn't weaker than he should be because Piccolo notes that in the actual fight. But even Sick SSJ Goku might be above his post-Namek battle power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again, SS Goku wasn't fighting after he returned to Earth.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku's SSJ Ki was also considered amazing even before he started fighting too though. Not saying he wasn't weaker than he should be because Piccolo notes that in the actual fight. But even Sick SSJ Goku might be above his post-Namek battle power.

I personally believe (Sick) Super Saiyan Goku is below his Namek's self. Even if his current ki (before start fighting) is decently ahead of the previous situation that Tenshinhan sensed, he can supposedly tap into only about 1/3 of his full power, because of the sickness, and still be weaker than even Freeza.