Goku, a Mary-Sue?

[thatdbzguy]

This is something I've been seeing said quite a bit in several different places. If it's not Future Trunks being accused of being a Mary-Sue, it's Goku. Why do you think some people see him as a Mary-Sue? Do you agree with that assertion?

[Kid Buu]

Actually it's mostly Gohan or Trunks I see accused of being a Mary Sue.

Anyway I think people just use Mary Sue as a quick way to justify not liking a character. What definition of Mary Sue are you going by? I see plenty of variations.

[Zephyr]

This is the first time I've seen Goku referred to as such.

But like Kid Buu said, we need a definition. That way we can know what Goku is being labelled as, can speculate as to why he is being labelled as such, and assert whether or not it is an appropriate label.

[KentalSSJ6]

Hes by no means a Mary-Sue.

He gives up to Cell and loses to Beerus.

Even most of his victories are achieved through help such as Buu. Freeza is the only enemy he defeats in one on one combat.

Now Toei Goku (movies, anime filler) is a different case.

[Metalwario64]

If you're even asking, then I don't think you know what a Mary-Sue actually is.

Goku is anything but a Mary-Sue.

[TheGmGoken]

OK. I just Google is Goku a Mary Sue. Besides this thread I saw 4 different website and a yahoo answer. Guess what? Every one said he WAS NOT A Mary Sue. So please tell me you claim to see people calling Goku one. Where are your sources? Who are these people? I tried
Goku Gary Sue
Goku a Mary Sue?
Is Goku a Mary sue?

They all gave same results. So exactly where you hear this from? If its your opinion that's fine. Don't try and sell it like it's the majority.

[Looneygamemaster]

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

In all seriousness, if we're discussing whether Goku is "an author's insert character"--then no, I don't think he is. He doesn't come off as having any aspects of Toriyama's personality that I can discern from his comments, for whatever that's worth.

But if we're discussing whether Goku is "Mr. Flawless and Perfect Who Can Do No Wrong"--well, I think he has traces of that. Ostensibly, his flaw is "prioritizing fighting above all else, whether it's his family or the safety of the Earth"...but the thing is, that's not really called out as a flaw. People's responses are "well, that's Goku for ya" or "well Goku, you've done so much, we'll put the planet's future in jeopardy for you." Which is...really kind of unsettling, when you think about it.

[FortuneSSJ]

First Trunks, now Goku... whats next?! Bubbles?!

[Kid Buu]

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

In all seriousness, if we're discussing whether Goku is "an author's insert character"--then no, I don't think he is. He doesn't come off as having any aspects of Toriyama's personality that I can discern from his comments, for whatever that's worth.

But if we're discussing whether Goku is "Mr. Flawless and Perfect Who Can Do No Wrong"--well, I think he has traces of that. Ostensibly, his flaw is "prioritizing fighting above all else, whether it's his family or the safety of the Earth"...but the thing is, that's not really called out as a flaw. People's responses are "well, that's Goku for ya" or "well Goku, you've done so much, we'll put the planet's future in jeopardy for you." Which is...really kind of unsettling, when you think about it.

Actually, the woman who voiced Kuririn and Yajirobe says Toriyama has a personality similar to Goku.

[TheGmGoken]

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

In all seriousness, if we're discussing whether Goku is "an author's insert character"--then no, I don't think he is. He doesn't come off as having any aspects of Toriyama's personality that I can discern from his comments, for whatever that's worth.

But if we're discussing whether Goku is "Mr. Flawless and Perfect Who Can Do No Wrong"--well, I think he has traces of that. Ostensibly, his flaw is "prioritizing fighting above all else, whether it's his family or the safety of the Earth"...but the thing is, that's not really called out as a flaw. People's responses are "well, that's Goku for ya" or "well Goku, you've done so much, we'll put the planet's future in jeopardy for you." Which is...really kind of unsettling, when you think about it.

Actually, the woman who voiced Kuririn and Yajirobe says Toriyama has a personality similar to Goku.

Still there's more than that for Sues. And Goku lacks most of it. My character is similar to me but he isn't a sue.

[Rocketman]

Manga Goku is absolutely not. The only part that even comes close has been mentioned - that everybody unconditionally loves him despite him being a gigantic prick who makes horrible decisions.

GT Goku absolutely is, though.

[Kid Buu]

Manga Goku is absolutely not. The only part that even comes close has been mentioned - that everybody unconditionally loves him despite him being a gigantic prick who makes horrible decisions.

I don't brand Goku a sue, but one thing that did bother me was how every character had to look bad so Goku can look good. Like the tournament that Baba held.

[kei17]

Many people say that blah-blah-blah so Toriyama's writing sucks.

Why do you always try to authorize your personal opinions by referring to baseless or straight made-up mass opinions that pop up out of nowhere? I am enough of this pattern.

And yeah, as many other members have already stated, Goku is not a Mary Sue. He has a proper background on his strength. He sometimes loses, and make efforts to surpass the opponent. Broly is the only DB character that can be called a Mary Sue.

[Kid Buu]

What makes Broli a Mary Sue?

[jjgp1112]

The whole Goku is a Mary Sue thing really only seems to be a western (*cough* Vegeta fanboys/girls*cough*) argument. Goku's the damn main character, and he had plenty of flaws which yielded ramifications throughout the show's run, not to mention he spent many episodes out of the spotlight in Z.

The only character who was Mary Sue-like was Trunks when he first debuted. Super Saiyan from the future with unique hair, easily beat the shit out of the last major villain, and was born from an unlikely crack pairing. However, by the time he returned for the fight with the Androids he was a much more rounded character and prone to screwups.

[Retan]

What the hells a mary-sue?

[Looneygamemaster]

and he had plenty of flaws which yielded ramifications throughout the show's run

But do they really count as flaws when no character seems to acknowledge them as such? It's certainly not enough to call him a "Mary Sue," that's true, but it really does make me a bit uncomfortable.

Retan: A "Mary Sue" is, by its strictest definition, a character meant to ideally represent the author, usually in romance. It's morphed into a label for someone who seems to have no flaws, or makes everyone else look insignificant.

[jjgp1112]

What the hells a mary-sue?

You can just google it, y'know

But the simple definition is a character who is overly idealized, presented without flaws (well, intentionally anyway), has abilities and characteristics that are implausible in the realm of the story, and is universally loved by the whole cast, even by antisocial characters. They receive an abnormal in the narrative and the entire story revolves around them. Like Rocketman said, think GT Goku.

There aren't a lot of wrestling fans on here, but I don't think there's a single stronger example of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu in modern fiction than John Cena.

and he had plenty of flaws which yielded ramifications throughout the show's run

But do they really count as flaws when no character seems to acknowledge them as such? It's certainly not enough to call him a "Mary Sue," that's true, but it really does make me a bit uncomfortable.

Retan: A "Mary Sue" is, by its strictest definition, a character meant to ideally represent the author, usually in romance. It's morphed into a label for someone who seems to have no flaws, or makes everyone else look insignificant.

Goku' gets called out for his shitty decision making many times in Dragon Ball. He arguably becomes more flawed as the series goes on.

[Cetra]

Like Rocketman said, think GT Goku.

Goku is the highlight of GT but far from perfect. He gets thrown around as often as he fights.

[AgitoZ]

Goku is the highlight of GT but far from perfect. He gets thrown around as often as he fights.

Not really.

It's a cheap crux to disguise the fact that GT makes Goku the only character who can do anything ever. It's the equivalent of a fanfic character being "clumsy" or "forgetful". The writer tries to compensate for their mary sues/gary stus by giving them "faults" which in actuality are not faults at all.

Or to use jjgp1112's brilliant example, it's having John Cena seemingly be the underdog against the new baddie wrestler of the week. It would work if it weren't for the fact that he's a multi-time world champion and rarely ever loses important matches.

Not to mention it's flat out stupid because Goku should not be having trouble with anyone in GT outside of final villains. Who gives a crap if he's a child, he's far stronger than he was in early Dragon Ball and he's got access to SSJ forms.