Dragonball Kai and the One Piece fandom

[Blade]

Dragonball Kai was meant to be Toei's way of introducing Dragonball to a new, younger audience, who were already consuming their biggest hitter, One Piece, to extent of it reaching record breaking popularity.

As such, Kai's original broadcast platform on FujiTV was back to back with One Piece under the 'Dream 9' (now 'Strong 9') billing, but despite initially decent ratings, the merchandise sales figures demonstrated that the fanbase that were consuming One Piece so ravenously just weren't putting their money into the Dragonball franchise, and instead, Dragonball was being largely consumed by the same older demographic that had always bought into it.

One Piece is often seen by many as being the spiritual successor to Dragonball as the jewel in the crown of Shonen Manga spawned franchises, and is looked upon fondly by many older Dragonball fans. As such, the two properties are frequently compared and likened to one another, but whilst many within the older Dragonball fandom also enjoy One Piece, the same can't be said as much of how the younger One Piece fandom view Dragonball.

So, why has Dragonball Kai largely failed to hit home with the new generation of One Piece fans? And how is it that the fandom of the older work (Dragonball) can identify so strongly with the newer work (One Piece), whereas the fandom of the newer work can be so apathetic to older? Has Toei's treatment of Kai really effected the spectacle so much as to make it so difficult to identify with for first time viewers? Or is Dragonball itself now just so dated that the younger fans just find it to be so alienating?

I've got a number of theories, but I'll hold back to see what other people have to say

[VegettoEX]

We've heard plenty anecdotal stories that these younger One Piece fans have older siblings and parents with the entire Dragon Ball series (generally in manga form) which they've already read if they're interested. Kai just isn't presenting anything new to anyone, since it's already such an institution.

Furthermore, younger people typically have a hard time going back to an "older-looking" entertainment medium. Respect for and appreciation of the past is something you come into with age, yourself.

That's why they're way into Heroes: it's got tons of "new" stuff. Even GT can be exploited this way, because there's no manga (*yes, I obviously know about the animanga in Saikyo Jump, but that's also "new"). Short of the Dragon Box sets, it's kinda sorta "new" at least in terms of its raw content (story, transformations, etc.).

[Kid Buu]

One Piece is often seen by many as being the spiritual successor to Dragonball

What makes OP the successor?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

One Piece is often seen by many as being the spiritual successor to Dragonball

What makes OP the successor?

Wasn't DB the biggest manga ever, while OP is now the biggest manga ever?

[B]

Also, Oda very proudly proclaims Dragon Ball as his direct inspiration. You can kind of see it in the art.

[kazamino]

We've heard plenty anecdotal stories that these younger One Piece fans have older siblings and parents with the entire Dragon Ball series (generally in manga form) which they've already read if they're interested. Kai just isn't presenting anything new to anyone, since it's already such an institution.

Furthermore, younger people typically have a hard time going back to an "older-looking" entertainment medium. Respect for and appreciation of the past is something you come into with age, yourself.

That's why they're way into Heroes: it's got tons of "new" stuff. Even GT can be exploited this way, because there's no manga (*yes, I obviously know about the animanga in Saikyo Jump, but that's also "new"). Short of the Dragon Box sets, it's kinda sorta "new" at least in terms of its raw content (story, transformations, etc.).

Bolded part I can speak from experience... there is a five year age gap between my brother and I, he cannot stand things I grew up with (Gundam as the sole exception to the example) and openly expresses his distaste for Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball for their art alone. He has sat down and watched a bit of Kai with me and he's really looking forward to Sailor Moon Crystal.

I know it seems like an odd example, but I thought I would just share it... I don't exactly know when the depreciation of older media starts. My parents have a 30 year gap over me but I still respect their choices in 'japanimation" as they call it. (I can tolerate some of the early dub jobs that are Speed Racer, Robotech, and Voltron)

[Blade]

Furthermore, younger people typically have a hard time going back to an "older-looking" entertainment medium. Respect for and appreciation of the past is something you come into with age, yourself.

Bolded part I can speak from experience... there is a five year age gap between my brother and I, he cannot stand things I grew up with (Gundam as the sole exception to the example) and openly expresses his distaste for Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball for their art alone. He has sat down and watched a bit of Kai with me and he's really looking forward to Sailor Moon Crystal.

I know it seems like an odd example, but I thought I would just share it... I don't exactly know when the depreciation of older media starts. My parents have a 30 year gap over me but I still respect their choices in 'japanimation" as they call it. (I can tolerate some of the early dub jobs that are Speed Racer, Robotech, and Voltron)

I think this is a large part of it, and where reanimating Dragonball would have made a world of difference. There's something about the external packaging around something, the gloss or exterior coating if you will, that gives something relevance or a sense of place in popular culture. I mean, how many kids listen to 'The Beatles'? Not that many - because they're not relevant to them, not relate-able. Their music is ever present in society, as they're such a huge and influential band, but to the eyes and ears of a young person they're old, monochrome and historic. However, as a thought experiment, consider if a young and currently popular artist were to cover an old Beatles song, and provide a modern twist on an existing work - undoubtedly, the song would be consumed more readily by younger audiences.

[Kid Buu]

He has sat down and watched a bit of Kai with me and he's really looking forward to Sailor Moon Crystal.)

Really? One of the biggest complaints I hear about Crystal is the artstyle. Well, that and Kunihiko Ikuhara not returning, meaning we wont get as great visual gags like this:

[Blade]

He has sat down and watched a bit of Kai with me and he's really looking forward to Sailor Moon Crystal.)

Really? One of the biggest complaints I hear about Crystal is the artstyle.

It's sort of caught between a rock and a hard place, as fans of the original have reservations with the new digital art, whereas those who've never seen the original are tending to be a little put off by the dated art style of the character designs.

[Kid Buu]

The lack of Kunihiko Ikuhara is going to hurt. He also didn't direct the least season of the anime and I hated that one.

[kazamino]

My brother is a Madoka fan, he also likes Nanoha and Pretty Cure... take that as you will

[Ajay]

My brother is a Madoka fan, he also likes Nanoha and Pretty Cure... take that as you will

Well, Madoka is one of the best animes to come out in a long time. It's interesting that he enjoys it considering it entirely subverts the magical girls genre he seems to be so fond of. Similarly to how Evangelion does with mech anime albeit on a far less intense and philosophical scale. I guess it's fairly easy to ignore the subtext and just enjoy it as a 'dark' magical school girls show. A real shame but a possibility, I guess (or maybe he simple likes both!).

But yes, on topic; I do think it's a case of, as previously mentioned, a generation uninterested in a show that's as dated and inconsistently animated as Dragon Ball. Should they ever produce a Heroes anime, I think the response would be overwhelming.

A side note about Sailor Moon - I don't really understand why everyone is up in arms about this art style. The entire point of this new show is to create something that closely follows the manga. The new art style looks almost exactly like the manga looks so what's the issue? It's suitably dated, seems to be well animated and also sets itself apart from previous work. I can't wait and I really hope it's a huge success!

[Kid Buu]

A side note about Sailor Moon - I don't really understand why everyone is up in arms about this art style. The entire point of this new show is to create something that closely follows the manga. The new art style looks almost exactly like the manga looks so what's the issue? It's suitably dated, seems to be well animated and also sets itself apart from previous work. I can't wait and I really hope it's a huge success!

So far, the three biggest complaints are:

1.) No Ikuhara to direct
2.) Toru Furuya not returning as Mamoru
3.) The composer doesnt have the best reputation

[Ajay]

So far, the three biggest complaints are:

1.) No Ikuhara to direct
2.) Toru Furuya not returning as Mamoru
3.) The composer doesnt have the best reputation

All legitimate complaints. Like I said, just the art style complaints I really don't understand at all.

Personally point 1 doesn't bother me much. I don't want the original anime 2.0, I want something that feels unique. With that said, point 2 is a real shame. Don't really have much of an opinion on point 3. Reserving most of my judgement until it actually releases.

Anyway! Dragon Ball board not Sailor Moon board. We should probably stop before we're forced to!

[Blade]

nconsistently animated as Dragon Ball.

I'm not sure I agree that this is a factor. The young One Piece audience aren't likely to notice, or pay much attention to this - and One Piece itself suffers from the same varying quality that most of Toei's long running productions do. Following the time skip especially, the production on One Piece has been quite shambolic - although, in truth, since Thriller Bark there have been real problems, especially with the one-episode-per-Chapter pacing, which I am amazed that the kids in Japan have the patience to persevere with.

I don't know how much sense people here will get from me drawing from direct examples of One Piece arcs, as many don't follow it, but the way things are going, it's likely that the anime will still be covering the events of the Dress Rosa arc in 2 years time. That's a hell of a long time in the lifespan of a kid. Toei's decision to sacrifice extended filler arcs in favour of snail pacing may just yet kill off the franchise, as I don't think it's such a coincidence that the show's popularity began to drop around the same time that Toei implemented their curb on anime-only storylines.

With Film Z, however, there was a clear demonstration that many of the fans who are disenfranchised with the series and no longer tune in on Sunday mornings will still turn out in hordes to consume an original story by Eichiro Oda. Film Z absolutely tore it up at the Box Office, and did a hell of a lot better than Battle of Gods - even when one could argue that Toei did a lot more in terms of media exposure and commercial tie-ins to push the latter. In fact, if it wasn't for Dragonball's huge global appeal and the associated revenue that has pulled, there's a good case to argue that Battle of Gods didn't actually do anywhere near as well for Toei as they wanted it to.

[Ajay]

One Piece itself suffers from the same varying quality that most of Toei's long running productions do.

Fair enough! I only read One Piece so I just went under the assumption that it was generally better. I've never seen any examples from One Piece that vary as much as a Yamamuro episode vs. an Uchiyama one, for example.

[MugiMikey]

I don't know how much sense people here will get from me drawing from direct examples of One Piece arcs, as many don't follow it, but the way things are going, it's likely that the anime will still be covering the events of the Dress Rosa arc in 2 years time. That's a hell of a long time in the lifespan of a kid. Toei's decision to sacrifice extended filler arcs in favour of snail pacing may just yet kill off the franchise, as I don't think it's such a coincidence that the show's popularity began to drop around the same time that Toei implemented their curb on anime-only storylines.

Hmmm. As much as I want Toei to have some kind of consequence for treating One Piece this way, I believe killing off the franchise is the last thing that will happen. One Piece has been running on television for fifteen years now and has had a couple different time slots, which gave Toei plenty of time to experiment, and found that sacrificing filler for slower pacing so they can be up to date as possible is beneficial. Currently, the anime is about 30 something chapters ahead of the manga, and as long as they stay that close behind, the release of fresh merchandise will also coincide with the show. MegaHouse's Portrait of Pirates figure/statue line is a fine example of a product Toei and its affiliates are capitalizing off. It's not only people in Japan buy One Piece merchandise as it comes out, but there is a large demand for it internationally as well.

And the ratings are still as high as ever; my guess is kids probably don't even know the pacing of the show has worsened over time. Even if Toei treats the show better it'll still get good ratings regardless, so I suppose using less resources is a smart business decision. Because of One Piece's ratings, Toei put Kai in the same block so they could play it safe. When that proved futile, they started airing Toriko, and that performed even worse despite being brand new and having three crossovers with One Piece. I'm not really sure why Kai and Toriko struggled so much even when paired with One Piece...

[Blade]

I don't know how much sense people here will get from me drawing from direct examples of One Piece arcs, as many don't follow it, but the way things are going, it's likely that the anime will still be covering the events of the Dress Rosa arc in 2 years time. That's a hell of a long time in the lifespan of a kid. Toei's decision to sacrifice extended filler arcs in favour of snail pacing may just yet kill off the franchise, as I don't think it's such a coincidence that the show's popularity began to drop around the same time that Toei implemented their curb on anime-only storylines.

Hmmm. As much as I want Toei to have some kind of consequence for treating One Piece this way, I believe killing off the franchise is the last thing that will happen. One Piece has been running on television for fifteen years now and has had a couple different time slots, which gave Toei plenty of time to experiment, and found that sacrificing filler for slower pacing so they can be up to date as possible is beneficial. Currently, the anime is about 30 something chapters ahead of the manga, and as long as they stay that close behind, the release of fresh merchandise will also coincide with the show. MegaHouse's Portrait of Pirates figure/statue line is a fine example of a product Toei and its affiliates are capitalizing off. It's not only people in Japan buy One Piece merchandise as it comes out, but there is a large demand for it internationally as well.

And the ratings are still as high as ever; my guess is kids probably don't even know the pacing of the show has worsened over time. Even if Toei treats the show better it'll still get good ratings regardless, so I suppose using less resources is a smart business decision. Because of One Piece's ratings, Toei put Kai in the same block so they could play it safe. When that proved futile, they started airing Toriko, and that performed even worse despite being brand new and having three crossovers with One Piece. I'm not really sure why Kai and Toriko struggled so much even when paired with One Piece...

I think 'killing off' was a little strongly worded on my part, I guess 'killing it slowly' is a better way of saying what I really meant.

I mean, there's no doubt that One Piece reached its peak of popularity around 4 or 5 years ago, around the time 'Strong World' was released, and the show clocked up a 13.8% rating in its 9:30am Sunday timeslot, which is really something compared to the 7.4% share it pulled on June 15th this year. Incidentally for that week, Dragonball Kai had less than 2 million viewers less than One Piece, so it just goes to show in a dramatic way that a large chunk of the One Piece viewership just aren't interested in Kai.

[Flame Dragon]

I have a dream... To see, one day, Dragon Ball and One Piece completely reanimated, with consistent animation, zero filler and 2 chapters per episode pacing minimum.

...
Sadly it will never happen under Toei's dictatorship, but a man can dream.

[Blade]

I have a dream... To see, one day, Dragon Ball and One Piece completely reanimated, with consistent animation, zero filler and 2 chapters per episode pacing minimum.

...
Sadly it will never happen under Toei's dictatorship, but a man can dream.

They're both extraordinarily long productions, which even when streamlined and gutted of any filler material, would be incredibly expensive to reanimate, take many years to do, and would probably only appeal to a very limited demographic of people.

Whilst I prefer reanimating something to Kai-ifying it, I that Toei's habit of regurgitating things should be curbed in favour of breaking new ground. Why reinvent the wheel time and time again?