Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Darkron2151]

All in all, I wish Super Saiyan 3 had remained exclusive to Goku, and that Gotenks would end up as extraordinarily powerful as he was hyped up to be but with just Super Saiyan 1, limited to it because that's all Goten and Trunks had.

That would have been interesting but also kept things a little more in check, and not made Gotenks look like such a useless wimp without Super Saiyan 3. As it stands, Gotenks had little going for him before Super Saiyan 3 beyond a lot of unfulfilled hype. You can hardly blame anyone for not believing up front that he was already an unstoppable force before gaining the higher levels.

This is why I dreaded making a buu saga list in my pl's. So much speculation and power scaling and numbers going this, that and the other way, not to mention all these new transformations, makes my brain woozy.
It would've made things a lot easier if the multipliers from the daiz were less radical, at least for Super Saiyan 3. Which is why I liked your list at the veeeeeeeerrrry beginning of this thread Kaboom, when:

Super Saiyan=50x
Super Saiyan 2=100x
Super Saiyan 3=150x
I don't know, it just made more sense considering it would make power gaps a lot smaller and more manageable. Less power scaling and more happy brain. But hey, guide books are guide books. And like it or not, we're stuck with them.

[Darkron2151]

On the topic of Battle of Gods, would Beerus be stronger than a hypothetical ssj3 Vegetto or just good ol' Super Vegetto? Beerus being stronger than ssj3 Vegetto is speculation, yes, but still plausible. All that is certain is that he is strong than Super Vegetto, but if that's all, then could ssj2 Vegetto be stronger?

[ZombieVito]

I have him stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto. If the kids could go SSJ3, Vegetto must be able to as well.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I also think he's stronger than SSJ3 Vegeto

[KentalSSJ6]

On the topic of Battle of Gods, would Beerus be stronger than a hypothetical ssj3 Vegetto or just good ol' Super Vegetto? Beerus being stronger than ssj3 Vegetto is speculation, yes, but still plausible. All that is certain is that he is strong than Super Vegetto, but if that's all, then could ssj2 Vegetto be stronger?

Super Veggeto < Beerus

SSJ2 Veggeto = Beerus

SSJ3 Veggeto > Beerus

Thats what I go by.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nothing contradicts ssj Gotenks < ssj3 Goku either.

It does, actually. We know that the SS kids are not extremely far from the SS adults from their feats, and base Gotenks is implied to be above the SS kids, since he was so impressed with his newfound power, he thought he could beat Boo, and Toriyama also said that he came up with Fusion when he wanted to create something stronger than Super Saiyan. So, if we apply the SEG multipliers, we get this (let's say that Goku is x2 stronger than Goten, and that Fusion = A x 60):

Goten - 1
SS Goten - 50
Goku - 2
SS3 Goku - 800
Gotenks - 60
SS Gotenks - 3000

And let's not forget that Gotenks got even stronger in RoSaT, and add Super Saiyan 3 in the mix...

Even if we ignore the SEG multipliers, we know that the SS multiplier is at least above x40 after all from the fight with Freeza, so for SS3 Goku to be stronger, the multiplier for SS3 should be SS x way over 2.500...

On the topic of Battle of Gods, would Beerus be stronger than a hypothetical ssj3 Vegetto or just good ol' Super Vegetto? Beerus being stronger than ssj3 Vegetto is speculation, yes, but still plausible. All that is certain is that he is strong than Super Vegetto, but if that's all, then could ssj2 Vegetto be stronger?

In BoG, Goku said that even merging with Vegeta probably wouldn't work against Beerus, and then said that he never imagined such a realm existing (realm most likely means power, tell me what else it could mean) when he turned Super Saiyan God, and then we learn that Beerus is even stronger than Goku... So, God Goku is much stronger than SS3 Vegetto, not to mention Beerus.

[Darkron2151]

It does, actually. We know that the SS kids are not extremely far from the SS adults from their feats, and base Gotenks is implied to be above the SS kids, since he was so impressed with his newfound power, he thought he could beat Boo, and Toriyama also said that he came up with Fusion when he wanted to create something stronger than Super Saiyan. So, if we apply the SEG multipliers, we get this (let's say that Goku is x2, and assume that Fusion = Ax60):

Goten - 1
SS Goten - 50
Goku - 2
SS3 Goku - 800
Gotenks - 60
SS Gotenks - 3000

No, it doesn't. Yes, the kids aren't far from the adults as we know, but just because Gotenks was impressed with his own power, doesn't make him all that great. That's just his arrogance speaking. When he challenged Fat Buu in Base, Piccolo knew he would get creamed, which is why he wanted to try the fusion again immediately afterward as Super Saiyan, and even then, he was still unsure he would win. Gotenks thought he could do something to Supper Buu in both Base and Super Saiyan, and those both failed. What makes this case so different.

Also, that statement from Toriyama was from, "Akira Toriyama Super Interview: 6th Round — Origins, and Onward to the Future…" about the different movies where he states they are “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. He told how Goku would raise his power as the villians got stronger through Super Saiyan, and that he didn't plan on using any other way of doing so.

• Incidentally, what led you to have Goku become a Super Saiyan, or the villains to level up?
  
  I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something. I actually hadn’t planned Goku’s Super Saiyan transformation at all. Then, when I came up with the idea of the Super Saiyan, in order to show that Goku had gained a massive power-up all at once, I thought “there’s no choice but to change his form, too”. But in terms of design, the facial expressions and such would become like the design for a villain. I felt, “I wonder if it’s really OK for him to be like this.” Granted, since his transformation is accompanied by rage, I also thought, “I suppose that part’s fine.” It was a pretty radical concept. With respect to the villains, my editor would say, for instance, “I don’t like this”, and in those circumstances, I’d change it. (laughs) Before long, “they should transform” became the norm, so that was a pain.
  
  Did you consider any other ways for Goku to level up other than going Super Saiyan?
  
  At the time, I didn’t really have the time to come up with multiple ideas, so that wasn’t going to happen.

He then talks about the introduction of fusion as a form of raising power. But he never said that it was in any way stronger than Super Saiyan, but just another plot device Goku and the heros used to raise their power besides the transformation. Keep in mind, you can stack the 2 power ups together if done correctly, as all the fusions have done in the series. But nothing suggests that is in any way stronger, but just another option to use in combat, and then use Super Saiyan.

• The concept of fusion is also a form of leveling up. How did that concept come to be?
  
  If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”, and Katsura-kun (Masakazu Katsura-sensei), who I usually just joke around and say idiotic things with, said, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.” So I said, “Whoa, sometimes even you say something good. It’s the first time you’ve ever made yourself useful.” (laughs) That’s how that plot point was born.

In BoG, Goku said that even merging with Vegeta probably wouldn't work against Beerus

Goku never mentioned fusion with Vegeta at all during the movie. He said something along the lines combining their powers not doing any good, and that was after they failed the attempt of becoming Super Saiyan God and only succeeded in absorbing energy from everyone.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Goku never mentioned fusion with Vegeta at all during the movie. He said something along the lines combining their powers not doing any good, and that was after they failed the attempt of becoming Super Saiyan God and only succeeded in absorbing energy from everyone.

No, he mentions fusion in the Special Edition of the movie, after he get's beaten by Beerus on Kaio's planet.

EXTENDED SCENE: 0:29:39 – 0:31:21 (16s → 1m42s = +1m26s)
As Goku lies on the ground, after marveling at how strong Beerus was, Kaiō tells him that he warned him. Goku goes on to reflect that he and Vegeta probably would not be able to beat him even if they fused. He then starts pondering “Super Saiyan God”, wondering what it means, as Bubbles reaches into his obi and pulls out a bag of Senzu. Goku is suddenly healed, then asks about informing everyone on Earth. Kaiō informs him that he told Vegeta, because he seemed like the least likely to do something rash. Goku wonders whether he should go to Earth now, or keep training on Planet Kaiō first.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

just because Gotenks was impressed with his own power, doesn't make him all that great. That's just his arrogance speaking.

But there must be a reason for him to get so arrogant. What else would it be if this isn't the greatest power he ever had? Besides, he was stronger than Piccolo, since Piccolo couldn't stop him from running away.

Also, about Toriyama's statement:

If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”, and Katsura-kun (Masakazu Katsura-sensei), who I usually just joke around and say idiotic things with, said, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.” So I said, “Whoa, sometimes even you say something good. It’s the first time you’ve ever made yourself useful.” (laughs) That’s how that plot point was born.

Toriyama was trying to think of something stronger than Super Saiyan, and then Katsura gave him the idea of Fusion.

Goku never mentioned fusion with Vegeta at all during the movie. He said something along the lines combining their powers not doing any good, and that was after they failed the attempt of becoming Super Saiyan God and only succeeded in absorbing energy from everyone.

What TheDevilsCorpse said.

[Darkron2151]

"TheDevilsCorpse"
No, he mentions fusion in the Special Edition of the movie, after he get's beaten by Beerus on Kaio's planet.

EXTENDED SCENE: 0:29:39 – 0:31:21 (16s → 1m42s = +1m26s)
As Goku lies on the ground, after marveling at how strong Beerus was, Kaiō tells him that he warned him. Goku goes on to reflect that he and Vegeta probably would not be able to beat him even if they fused. He then starts pondering “Super Saiyan God”, wondering what it means, as Bubbles reaches into his obi and pulls out a bag of Senzu. Goku is suddenly healed, then asks about informing everyone on Earth. Kaiō informs him that he told Vegeta, because he seemed like the least likely to do something rash. Goku wonders whether he should go to Earth now, or keep training on Planet Kaiō first.

There's a special edition of the movie? Huh, didn't know that. Well that's certainly interesting. But this leads to another important question. Where and how did Bubbles get Senzu Beans!?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But this leads to another important question. Where and how did Bubbles get Senzu Beans!?

He didn't. Bubbles reached into Goku's obi (belt) and pulled out the bag of Senzu Goku had with him.

[Darkron2151]

But there must be a reason for him to get so arrogant. What else would it be if this isn't the greatest power he ever had? Besides, he was stronger than Piccolo, since Piccolo couldn't stop him from running away.

Arrogence is just his main character trait. Buuhan was arrogent and still thought he could beat Super Vegetto, even after he got smacked around. Plus, Piccolo never went after him, so we don't know how fast they are in comparison to one another. With that said, if you're going by Gotenks' "feats" as a measure of his power, then that's gonna be hard considering he didn't demonstrate any good ones. Kid Trunks displayed better feats than Base Gotenks. He not only kicked an unsuspected Fat Buu through an entire mountain, but he also survived a sucker punch from Super Buu in base form. So well, in fact, that he trash-talked him afterwards and proceeded with the fusion. Heck, Mr. Satan survived a direct hit in the face by Cell, Kid Trunks, and Kid Buu, and came out unscathed (in a way). So power feats in the Buu Saga, and in Dragon Ball in general, that aren't blatently obvious are really arbitrary and shouldn't be taken so seriously, because they can just be used for plot-progression also. Base Gotenks surviving against Fat Buu was used for plot-progression only. If he was just killed off there, where would the story go then?

Also, about Toriyama's statement:

If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”, and Katsura-kun (Masakazu Katsura-sensei), who I usually just joke around and say idiotic things with, said, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.” So I said, “Whoa, sometimes even you say something good. It’s the first time you’ve ever made yourself useful.” (laughs) That’s how that plot point was born.

Toriyama was trying to think of something stronger than Super Saiyan, and then Katsura gave him the idea of Fusion.

No, he was trying to find another way for the heroes to "raise their levels", not something stronger than a Super Saiyan. And in the context of that interview, they were talking about how he struggled to find another way of leveling up in general, not necessarily one that was specifically stronger than Super Saiyan. The statement, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.”, could probably just be referring to the fusion AS Super Saiyans, since a normal Super Saiyan wouldn't cut it. Plus fusion in the series, in and of itself, was overhyped. It took fusion with the addition of Super Saiyan Transformations in order for it to be relevant. So saying it HAS to be stronger is really unnecessary.

What TheDevilsCorpse said.

Okay, I'll bite, that one is true.

[Darkron2151]

But this leads to another important question. Where and how did Bubbles get Senzu Beans!?

He didn't. Bubbles reached into Goku's obi (belt) and pulled out the bag of Senzu Goku had with him.

Oh, ok. I guess I misread.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, that doesn't have to mean, "the power boost from Fusion is greater than going Super Saiyan," just that "two Super Saiyans combined are better than one."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Arrogence is just his main character trait. Buuhan was arrogent and still thought he could beat Super Vegetto, even after he got smacked around.

But everyone only got arrogant when they got stronger than before. Vegeta, Cell, Boo, all of them were getting arrogant each time they received a new, greater power up. If base Gotenks is weaker than the SS kids, why would he get so arrogant?

Plus, Piccolo never went after him, so we don't know how fast they are in comparison to one another.

Gotenks could have gotten killed against Boo, and he was the universe's last hope. If Piccolo could stop him, but he didn't, then he is a really big asshole.

No, he was trying to find another way for the heroes to "raise their levels", not something stronger than a Super Saiyan.

But he literally said that he was trying to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan.

Yeah, that doesn't have to mean, "the power boost from Fusion is greater than going Super Saiyan," just that "two Super Saiyans combined are better than one."

Even so, the manga strongly implies that base Saiyan Fusion > Super Saiyan.

[Darkron2151]

But everyone only got arrogant when they got stronger than before. Vegeta, Cell, Boo, all of them were getting arrogant each time they received a new, greater power up. If base Gotenks is weaker than the SS kids, why would he get so arrogant?

The people you just mentioned have always been arrogent, whether or not they just recieved a power up. People don't just get arrogent just because they got a new power up (unless they're Gohan), especially if it's while they are facing an opponent that is far stronger than themselves. Semi-Cell still thought he had a chance against Super Vegeta, even though it was clear just by sensing his energy that Cell had no chance. Even when Semi-Cell performed his futile power up, he still was outmatched. There was a HUUUGE gap between Buuhan against Super Vegetto, so much so that someone who had even the most basic Ki-sensing ability could decipher, and Buu still thought that Vegetto would lose. And they have much less of an excuse than the Ginyu Force because at least those guys didn't have the ability to sense energy. Even when it was obvious they were clearly outmatched, they still thought they could win. And what do you know, they didn't (Until Cell absorbed 18 and Buu "absorbed" Vegetto).

Gotenks could have gotten killed against Boo, and he was the universe's last hope. If Piccolo could stop him, but he didn't, then he is a really big asshole.

Piccolo has been known to just stand there and just yell, "STOP!", for no good reason, even if he could've done something. He did that when Trunks and Goten flew off to save Vegeta against Fat buu. That's just how the plot progresses. Toriyama wanted to show that Base Gotenks was no match for Buu in order to progress the plot, so he had Piccolo not stop him so that he could get creamed by Buu, all for plot progression.

But he literally said that he was trying to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan.

Nope. The question prior to that statement was whether Goku had another way to raise his power besides Super Saiyan, but Toriyama said he didn't really think of any. Then the the question arose as to how he thought of fusion, saying that fusion likewise is another way to raise their power. Never did he once state specifically that Super Saiyan was weaker than fusion.

Even so, the manga strongly implies that base Saiyan Fusion > Super Saiyan.

Based on your own assumption. Other people see it differently. The only one that I see pulling that is Vegetto, for obvious reasons.
But hey, to each his own.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The people you just mentioned have always been arrogent, whether or not they just recieved a power up.

Yes, but they acknowledged that they are weaker when they were weaker. They thought that they were strong enough to beat someone because they had achieved a new, even more powerful power-up, and thought that they were the strongest in the universe because of that, until they were getting their asses kicked, and they accepted the truth. They never got arrogant by achieving a weaker power-up, all of them got impressed by getting the feeling "Wow! Look how strong I've gotten, I can beat everyone now!!!".

Piccolo has been known to just stand there and just yell, "STOP!", for no good reason, even if he could've done something. He did that when Trunks and Goten flew off to save Vegeta against Fat buu.

Piccolo is weaker than the SS kids IMO, but even if he wasn't, there was no time to stop them because Boo was very close to them. But there was time for him to stop Gotenks if he was fast enough to do it.

Nope. The question prior to that statement was whether Goku had another way to raise his power besides Super Saiyan, but Toriyama said he didn't really think of any. Then the the question arose as to how he thought of fusion, saying that fusion likewise is another way to raise their power. Never did he once state specifically that Super Saiyan was weaker than fusion.

What? The concept was to think of something stronger than Super Saiyan. He literally says it:

If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”, and Katsura-kun (Masakazu Katsura-sensei), who I usually just joke around and say idiotic things with, said, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.” So I said, “Whoa, sometimes even you say something good. It’s the first time you’ve ever made yourself useful.” (laughs) That’s how that plot point was born.

He was trying to think of something stronger than a Super Saiyan. He says it.

[Darkron2151]

Yes, but they acknowledged that they are weaker when they were weaker. They thought that they were strong enough to beat someone because they had achieved a new, even more powerful power-up, and thought that they were the strongest in the universe because of that, until they were getting their asses kicked, and they accepted the truth. They never got arrogant by achieving a weaker power-up, all of them got impressed by getting the feeling "Wow! Look how strong I've gotten, I can beat everyone now!!!".

Even after getting smacked around, Buu still thought he was stronger. Heck, he thought his Super Ghost Kamikaze would actually do something to Vegetto if it worked, despite the huge gap in power further displayed by the his previous beatdown. Even if he acknowledged that he was weaker, he was too in denial to believe it.

Also, let's say the fusion was stronger than Super Saiyan. 60x wouldn't make an apparent difference. That's only a 20% increase from Super Saiyan, so why would anyone get excited over that? The kids could sense Buu's energy and knew how strong Buu was. He just defeated both Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, so why would they think an increase from 50x to 60x would even phase Buu? But apparently, Gotenks thought it was more than enough, which shows his ignorance and arrogence. And even if that's the case, that would mean that Evil Buu absorbing Good Buu made him practically 50x stronger and even stronger with the absorptions of Gotenks and Gohan only to drop several times in power to his "pure state" just because Good Buu was removed. Here's the numbers to demonstrate:

Goten: 1
Super Saiyan: 50
Post ROSAT: 1.25
Goku: 2
Super Saiyan 3: 800
Gotenks: 60
Super Saiyan: 3,000
Post ROSAT: 75
Super Saiyan 3: 30,000
Fat Buu: 600
Super Buu: 30,000
Ultimate Gohan: At least 45,000
Buuhan: At least 75,000

So by your multiplier, Buuhan would be at least 93.75x Super Saiyan 3 Goku. And that's with just a 60x multiplier. By your logic, if Gotenks was genuinely confident in the power increase like you say, then it would have to be at least 100-200x in order to to be confident against an enemy even Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta couldn't even beat. But let's go back to the 60x for now. If Gotenks gets that strong, imagine Kibitoshin. The potara was stated to be stronger than the fusion dance, and that was before Old Kai mentioned the rival boost. So by your logic, Kibitoshin would be over 60x stronger than East Kai who is stated to be more powerful than Piccolo. The arrogance Gotenks showed was just that, arrogance. It's his main characteristic. He doesn't need some great power up in order to show it because that's just who he is.

And then you gotta ask yourself, "Would Toriyama intentionally make these characters THIS much stronger than the MAIN CHARACTER, even as a Super Saiyan 3?" It just seems like unnecessary bloating when the only thing that mattered was Gotenks turning Super Saiyan 3 at the end, despite doing nothing in his previous forms.

Piccolo is weaker than the SS kids IMO, but even if he wasn't, there was no time to stop them because Boo was very close to them. But there was time for him to stop Gotenks if he was fast enough to do it.

There have been cases where people that are far weaker than others have been able to catch up to those people via flight. Videl was able to keep up with Gohan and Kibito for a time, until they thought it was time to pick up the pace. Plus, in the Namek Saga, Dodoria couldn't catch Krillin or Gohan at first, and he was vastly superior to them. He was gonna catch up eventually if Krillin didn't use the Solar Flare, but you'de think since he was nearly 10x stronger than them, that he could be able to catch up to them almost instantly. So flight speed in and of itself isn't a good indicator for strength.

What? The concept was to think of something stronger than Super Saiyan. He literally says it:

If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”, and Katsura-kun (Masakazu Katsura-sensei), who I usually just joke around and say idiotic things with, said, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.” So I said, “Whoa, sometimes even you say something good. It’s the first time you’ve ever made yourself useful.” (laughs) That’s how that plot point was born.

He was trying to think of something stronger than a Super Saiyan. He says it.

He said that, as a concept for raising powers in the plot, "there is nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan", to which his friend makes a joke about how those said Super Saiyans fusing would be the only way around it. In other words, "If nothing's stronger than a Super Saiyan, then I guess you have to fuse those Super Saiyans in order to beat it," because notice that the subject "them" is still referring to the subject in the previous statement "Super Saiyan", referring to the heroes in Super Saiyan form. So in conclusion, it would probably mean, "then I guess you have to fuse the Super Saiyans to make something even stronger." His intention was to make a power up along with Super Saiyan, only because he didn't have time to before. Plus, now he made fusion a "plot point", but not specifically to be stronger than Super Saiyan, but to add something new to the table. Because if they're facing an enemy in which Normal Super Saiyan won't cut it, then how about a combined Super Saiyan? It's all just for the progression of plot.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Even after getting smacked around, Buu still thought he was stronger. Heck, he thought his Super Ghost Kamikaze would actually do something to Vegetto if it worked, despite the huge gap in power further displayed by the his previous beatdown. Even if he acknowledged that he was weaker, he was too in denial to believe it.

Boo grew so arrogant & overconfident because this was the greatest power he ever had though. Every single time that someone grew arrogant & overconfident was because of that. Why would Gotenks become so arrogant if he is weaker than he was before?

And even if that's the case, that would mean that Evil Buu absorbing Good Buu made him practically 50x stronger

More than x50. Is there anything that contradicts this?

So by your multiplier, Buuhan would be at least 93.75x Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Something like that. Where is the issue? Goku was no match for Evil Boo to begin with.

If Gotenks gets that strong, imagine Kibitoshin.

Goten & Trunks are nearly equals, while Kibito & Kaioshin have a huge gap between them, so the boost shouldn't be extremely big.

"Would Toriyama intentionally make these characters THIS much stronger than the MAIN CHARACTER, even as a Super Saiyan 3?"

Toriyama was planning to keep Goku dead, and keep Gohan as the main character who would kill Boo, so yes, I expect the main character (Gohan) to get this much stronger than the old main character (Goku) whom Toriyama decided to bring back at the last minute. Plus, Toriyama most likely wasn't using numbers, so all he had in his mind was "Evil Boo is much stronger than Fat Boo, SS Gotenks is much stronger than SS3 Goku, and SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are even stronger than that". Which is perfectly fine, because Goku or Pure Boo never fight with Gotenks, Gohan, or any form of Evil Boo, but we know that SS3 Goku with help from SS2 Vegeta stands no chance against Evil Boo. Besides, there is also base Vegetto, who is implied to be stronger than Gotenks Boo, and then he got x50 stronger, with potential to get x2, and possibly x4 on to of that stronger... Even in previous arcs, compare Chaozu with Oozaru Vegeta, or Kuririn with 1st Form Freeza, not to mention Full Power Freeza, or Kuririn with base Goku, or SS Goku, or SS Vegeta (pre) with #16, or SS Goku (post) with Super Perfect Cell... it's not the first time we see huge gaps when measured with numbers, it's just that the Boo arc is even more crazy, and this isn't the only thing that is crazy in the Boo arc.

He said that, as a concept for raising powers in the plot, "there is nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan"

He didn't mention that part in this statement.

[Darkron2151]

Boo grew so arrogant & overconfident because this was the greatest power he ever had though. Every single time that someone grew arrogant & overconfident was because of that. Why would Gotenks become so arrogant if he is weaker than he was before?

Why are you suggesting that Gotenks "powered up" in any way? That's the first time the boys ever fused correctly. I don't think Goten and Trunks are conscious inside Gotenks since Gotenks is a whole seperate being. When they defuse though, they are aware of what happened during the time they were together, but that's pretty much it. Also, when he first appears, he acts like Buu is nothing to him in his base form, even though the kids already knew how strong Buu was when he fought with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and then Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

More than x50. Is there anything that contradicts this?

Something like that. Where is the issue? Goku was no match for Evil Boo to begin with.

In rich respect, nothing. So if I may ask, where's the issue in my numbers? I placed my numbers where the plot needs them, and didn't look into small details such as, "Piccolo didn't stop them, so that must mean Gotenks is stronger," even if that scene solely just for plot build-up to begin with. I just have a tenancy to not make things "overly-bloated" when it comes to powers just so it makes the numbers more comparable. Unless comparisons in power are either plainly stated (while at the same time work within the sequence of events) or just blatantly obvious, I don't really care about tiny details in the script when they don't really mean anything, despite other people thinking that they do. I just like the character's powers where they "need" to be, and as long as the events in the plot aren't contradicted, I'm fine with that. So as long as those powers suit the plot, preference is really subjective when it comes to power levels after Freeza.

Goten & Trunks are nearly equals, while Kibito & Kaioshin have a huge gap between them, so the boost shouldn't be extremely big.

Says who? In the potara fusion, they don't have to be equals. Plus Old Kai outright says that the potara is better than the fusion dance. If Kibito and Kaioshin did the fusion dance though, then I would agree.

Toriyama was planning to keep Goku dead, and keep Gohan as the main character who would kill Boo, so yes, I expect the main character (Gohan) to get this much stronger than the old main character (Goku) whom Toriyama decided to bring back at the last minute. Plus, Toriyama most likely wasn't using numbers, so all he had in his mind was "Evil Boo is much stronger than Fat Boo, SS Gotenks is much stronger than SS3 Goku, and SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are even stronger than that". Which is perfectly fine, because Goku or Pure Boo never fight with Gotenks, Gohan, or any form of Evil Boo, but we know that SS3 Goku with help from SS2 Vegeta stands no chance against Evil Boo. Besides, there is also base Vegetto, who is implied to be stronger than Gotenks Boo, and then he got x50 stronger, with potential to get x2, and possibly x4 on to of that stronger... Even in previous arcs, compare Chaozu with Oozaru Vegeta, or Kuririn with 1st Form Freeza, not to mention Full Power Freeza, or Kuririn with base Goku, or SS Goku, or SS Vegeta (pre) with #16, or SS Goku (post) with Super Perfect Cell... it's not the first time we see huge gaps when measured with numbers, it's just that the Boo arc is even more crazy, and this isn't the only thing that is crazy in the Boo arc.

Hm..you make some good points, but here's some things also:

1.Toriyama never suggested nor stated that Super Saiyan Gotenks is greater than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Heck, the Daizenshuu 7 implies that until he hit the ROSAT, he didn't even surpass Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. And from what I've seen in the manga, nothing contradicts that. Both Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks lost outright to Buu, so there's not really any feats to go off of until he goes Super Saiyan 3 and actually holds an advantage.

2. The only thing Base Vegetto did was transform to Super Vegetto. That's it. I don't see how non-existent feats imply that his Base was greater than or on par with Buutenks.

3. Yes, the Buu arc is crazy and yes, Gohan was supposed to take the spotlight, but that doesn't mean Toriyama would completely debunk Goku and make him over hundreds of times weaker. It just doesn't really make sense in a writing viewpoint to COMPLETELY debunk the old main character. And making Gohan the main character was just his original idea of the ending, meaning he then had to change the ending in order to make Goku the hero again, but not when he was halfway done with the manga and then suddenly desides to change it. So why would he overpower all these characters, and especially forms of Buu, to around 200x-500x Super Saiyan 3 Goku, only to then degrade Buu's level back down to fit Goku's level? Plus, we don't know how much stronger Gohan is than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. All we know is that he's A LOT stronger. Whether it be 3.75x stronger or 200x stronger, it really doesn't matter because the end result is the same. It just seems a little far-fetched to place them that much stronger than Goku for no good reason is all.

He didn't mention that part in this statement

Yeah he did. At the beginning of this question which was right after the other questions about the heroes "raising their levels".

• The concept of fusion is also a form of leveling up. How did that concept come to be?
  
  If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”