Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why are you suggesting that Gotenks "powered up" in any way? That's the first time the boys ever fused correctly. I don't think Goten and Trunks are conscious inside Gotenks since Gotenks is a whole seperate being. When they defuse though, they are aware of what happened during the time they were together, but that's pretty much it.

Gotenks is still Goten & Trunks though, he isn't a completely separate being.

Also, when he first appears, he acts like Buu is nothing to him in his base form, even though the kids already knew how strong Buu was when he fought with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and then Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Whenever someone gets arrogant, it's not because he gets the greatest power compared to others, it's because he gets the greatest power he ever had. For example, look at Vegeta when he got a near-death power-up against Final Form Freeza. He thought that he was the strongest because he had received a big power-up, even though it should be obvious that Freeza is still stronger.

So if I may ask, where's the issue in my numbers?

I haven't seen you numbers in detail, but I think they are fine. Except the parts where we are debating right now of course.

I placed my numbers where the plot needs them, and didn't look into small details such as, "Piccolo didn't stop them, so that must mean Gotenks is stronger," even if that scene solely just for plot build-up to begin with.

I'm looking the situation as it is in-universe, so the plot-thing doesn't matter to me.

I just have a tenancy to not make things "overly-bloated" when it comes to powers just so it makes the numbers more comparable. Unless comparisons in power are either plainly stated (while at the same time work within the sequence of events) or just blatantly obvious, I don't really care about tiny details in the script when they don't really mean anything, despite other people thinking that they do. I just like the character's powers where they "need" to be, and as long as the events in the plot aren't contradicted, I'm fine with that. So as long as those powers suit the plot, preference is really subjective when it comes to power levels after Freeza.

Same here, I don't make others stronger than they have to. It's just that I feel that Gotenks is implied to be that much strong. And don't get me wrong, I'm not a Gotenks or Gohan fanboy.

Says who? In the potara fusion, they don't have to be equals. Plus Old Kai outright says that the potara is better than the fusion dance. If Kibito and Kaioshin did the fusion dance though, then I would agree.

According to Goku's guess, if he had merged with Mr. Satan or Dende (who are both extremely weak compared to Goku), he would have barely gotten any stronger, and maybe he would have even gotten weaker. And there is also Rou Kaioshin saying that Vegetto is so strong because Goku & Vegeta are rivals, aka they are equals in power. So, it seems to me that, when it comes to the Potara, the closer in power the two warriors are, the greatest the result.

1.Toriyama never suggested nor stated that Super Saiyan Gotenks is greater than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Heck, the Daizenshuu 7 implies that until he hit the ROSAT, he didn't even surpass Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. And from what I've seen in the manga, nothing contradicts that. Both Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks lost outright to Buu, so there's not really any feats to go off of until he goes Super Saiyan 3 and actually holds an advantage.

Goku said that SS Gotenks would have been stronger than him, and he knew both how Fusion worked, and the SS kids' full power. Then again, Goku was lying about his power at this point, saying that he was probably not strong enough to kill Fat Boo, but then again, he only admitted that he was stronger than Fat Boo after that, and never said how he compares with Gotenks.

As for the D7 statement, it can be also interpreted as base Gotenks (post) surpassing SS2 Vegeta, since SS Gotenks (pre) was definitely stronger than him already.

2. The only thing Base Vegetto did was transform to Super Vegetto. That's it. I don't see how non-existent feats imply that his Base was greater than or on par with Buutenks.

Rou Kaioshin said that if Goku & Gohan had merged, they wouldn't need Super Saiyan to kill Gotenks Boo, because the Potara are that powerful. This means that this isn't Ultimate "Gokhan" that he is talking about, because a) he said that they would be so strong because of the Potara, not because of Gohan, b) he says that they wouldn't need the power of Super Saiyan, while Ultimate Gohan can't transform, and c) Gohan is implied in the manga, and shown in BoG, that he can either transform into a Super Saiyan, or power-up into Ultimate. So, Rou Kaioshin is talking about base "Gokhan", not Ultimate "Gokhan" (not to mention that "Gokhan" shouldn't even be able to use the Ultimate state IMO, since his Goku part doesn't have his dormant power drawn out like his Gohan part).

But, as we know, Goku & Vegeta are closer in power while in base than Goku & Gohan are. So, based on Rou Kaioshin's reaction to Vegetto, I believe that Vegetto is stronger than "Gokhan" would have been.

3. Yes, the Buu arc is crazy and yes, Gohan was supposed to take the spotlight, but that doesn't mean Toriyama would completely debunk Goku and make him over hundreds of times weaker. It just doesn't really make sense in a writing viewpoint to COMPLETELY debunk the old main character. And making Gohan the main character was just his original idea of the ending, meaning he then had to change the ending in order to make Goku the hero again, but not when he was halfway done with the manga and then suddenly desides to change it. So why would he overpower all these characters, and especially forms of Buu, to around 200x-500x Super Saiyan 3 Goku, only to then degrade Buu's level back down to fit Goku's level? Plus, we don't know how much stronger Gohan is than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. All we know is that he's A LOT stronger. Whether it be 3.75x stronger or 200x stronger, it really doesn't matter because the end result is the same. It just seems a little far-fetched to place them that much stronger than Goku for no good reason is all.

Goku was going to stay dead forever, so even if he was a thousand times weaker or stronger than Gohan, he was going to be irrelevant to the story.

Yeah he did. At the beginning of this question which was right after the other questions about the heroes "raising their levels".

The concept of fusion is also a form of leveling up. How did that concept come to be?

If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”

This is the interviewer speaking, not Toriyama.

[Darkron2151]

EDIT (pg 213): Added some changes:

• 1. Increased Base Saiyans from Cell Games onward, due to change in heart about Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Gohan idea. Still fits in with BOG for the most part.
  2. I also changed the forms of Buu, the fusions (Gotenk sand Vegetto), and also Ultimate Gohan.
  3. Added the other Kaioshins into the mix (the ones that fought Buu).

[xmysticgohanx]

EDIT (pg 213): Added some changes:

• 1. Increased Base Saiyans from Cell Games onward, due to change in heart about Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Gohan idea. Still fits in with BOG for the most part.
  2. I also changed the forms of Buu, the fusions (Gotenk sand Vegetto), and also Ultimate Gohan.
  3. Added the other Kaioshins into the mix (the ones that fought Buu).

Good BTW this forum needs a like button for posts.

[Darkron2151]

BTW this forum needs a like button for posts.

Well.....think about it this way. If there's a like button, there's probably gonna be a dislike button also. So if someone posts a power level chart or something along those lines that A LOT of people don't agree with, it would probably put people down if they saw like 7 or so thumbs down on their hard work. I know I would be sad.

[RandomGuy96]

So here's something I was recently made aware of: in the anime (and only the anime, from what I can tell), Goku states that the dance fusion is more powerful than Namekian fusion. Meaning that either one or both of the following statements are true:

A. Gotenks is even more ridiculously stronger than Goku than is commonly thought.
B. Piccolo somehow jumped to over one hundred thousand in one week. The same ridiculous training gains should also apply to the humans.

[KentalSSJ6]

So here's something I was recently made aware of: in the anime (and only the anime, from what I can tell), Goku states that the dance fusion is more powerful than Namekian fusion. Meaning that either one or both of the following statements are true:

A. Gotenks is even more ridiculously stronger than Goku than is commonly thought.
B. Piccolo somehow jumped to over one hundred thousand in one week. The same ridiculous training gains should also apply to the humans.

If it's not listed or stated in the manga, just ignore it.

[Darkron2151]

So here's something I was recently made aware of: in the anime (and only the anime, from what I can tell), Goku states that the dance fusion is more powerful than Namekian fusion. Meaning that either one or both of the following statements are true:

A. Gotenks is even more ridiculously stronger than Goku than is commonly thought.
B. Piccolo somehow jumped to over one hundred thousand in one week. The same ridiculous training gains should also apply to the humans.

From what I recall, Piccolo explains his fusion process with Nail, then Goku says that the fusion dance works differently in which instead of one participant's body being the host, it forms an entirely new being. Then Piccolo says that the end result is the same, that the two combine and all that's left is one with a great amount of power. But even then, no one knew how powerful the fusion dance would be. I can't recall though whether Goku says that the fusion dance is stronger (though I think it is), but that it works differently. That's just from what I remember.

[xmysticgohanx]

Well.....think about it this way. If there's a like button, there's probably gonna be a dislike button also. So if someone posts a power level chart or something along those lines that A LOT of people don't agree with, it would probably put people down if they saw like 7 or so thumbs down on their hard work. I know I would be sad.

Facebook doesn't have a dislike button

So here's something I was recently made aware of: in the anime (and only the anime, from what I can tell), Goku states that the dance fusion is more powerful than Namekian fusion. Meaning that either one or both of the following statements are true:

A. Gotenks is even more ridiculously stronger than Goku than is commonly thought.
B. Piccolo somehow jumped to over one hundred thousand in one week. The same ridiculous training gains should also apply to the humans.

Well since I believe Fusion Dance > SSJ (I have it at a 60x boost), I've always thought A. was true.

[DragonBallFan8001]

Here are the power levels I think Goku has throughout the series, after the Freeza Arc.

-When Goku first met Trunks:
Base form: 3,500,000.
Super Saiyan: 175,000,000.
(Goku got a little boost in power after his fight against Freeza, I think, but he didn't get much stronger from training, because he mostly tried perfecting the Instantaneous Movement on planet Yardrat.)

-After training for 3 years:
Base form: 7,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 350,000,000.
(Goku trained with Gohan and Piccolo, who were both much weaker than Goku, so I think Goku didn't get much stronger himself, and thus only doubled his power level.)

-After training in the room of spirit and time:
Base form: 56,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000.
(The gravity in the room of spirit and time is probably twice as strong as the gravity on Earth, because, while Gohan never trained with stronger gravity than Earth's gravity, he didn't have any trouble adjusting to the gravity in the room of spirit and time. If the gravity is twice as strong in the room of spirit and time, Goku could get stronger at a fifth of the rate at which he got stronger during the Saiyan Arc, in which he got 20 times as strong in approximately half a year, because in that Arc, he trained at 10 times the Earth's normal gravity. Goku trained in the room of spirit and time for a year, so he probably became 8 times as strong.)

-During the Boo Arc:
Base form: 560,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 28,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 56,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 224,000,000,000.
(In the 7 years between the Cell Arc and the Boo Arc, Goku was so strong that the training at normal gravity probably didn't increase his strength as much as it did before. Also, he tried to master the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 transformations, so while training those transformations, he probably didn't increase his strength. That's why I think Goku only became 10 times as strong in 7 years.)

-During Battle of Gods:
Base form: 2,800,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 140,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 280,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 1,120,000,000,000.
(In the 5 years between the Boo Arc and Battle of Gods, Goku spent a lot of time with his family, so I think he didn't train as much as he usually did, so I think he only got 5 times as strong.)

-After eating a Senzu Bean during Battle of Gods:
Base form: 3,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 150,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 300,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 1,200,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan God: 15,000,000,000,000.
(I think that Goku, while not injured too badly after he first fought Beerus, did get a little boost in strength, because he was knocked out. I think that a Super Saiyan God transformation, while it's power level can't be read, would have a power that is 5000 times the character's base form's power.)

-After absorbing the Super Saiyan God transformation:
Base form: 13,500,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 675,000,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 1,350,000,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 5,400,000,000,000,000.
(Goku fought almost as well in his base form against Beerus as he did in his Super Saiyan God form, because he absorbed the transformation's power. I think he absorbed about 90% of the transformation's power.)

These are the power levels that I think Goku has after the Freeza Arc. Maybe I will post what I think Goku's power is during Dragon Ball GT some other time. Also, I will probably post some other characters' power levels some other time.

[Darkron2151]

I like them. I do wonder though why you have Goku's base power so high in Buu Saga and BOG (due to Berrus' comment on him being weaker than Freeza).

[Kaboom]

Yeah, that's... QUITE a huge jump in power between the Cell Games and the Majin Boo arc.

[KentalSSJ6]

Here are the power levels I think Goku has throughout the series, after the Freeza Arc.

-When Goku first met Trunks:
Base form: 3,500,000.
Super Saiyan: 175,000,000.
(Goku got a little boost in power after his fight against Freeza, I think, but he didn't get much stronger from training, because he mostly tried perfecting the Instantaneous Movement on planet Yardrat.)

-After training for 3 years:
Base form: 7,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 300,000,000.
(Goku trained with Gohan and Piccolo, who were both much weaker than Goku, so I think Goku didn't get much stronger himself, and thus only doubled his power level.)

-After training in the room of spirit and time:
Base form: 56,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000.
(The gravity in the room of spirit and time is probably twice as strong as the gravity on Earth, because, while Gohan never trained with stronger gravity than Earth's gravity, he didn't have any trouble adjusting to the gravity in the room of spirit and time. If the gravity is twice as strong in the room of spirit and time, Goku could get stronger at a fifth of the rate at which he got stronger during the Saiyan Arc, in which he got 20 times as strong in approximately half a year, because in that Arc, he trained at 10 times the Earth's normal gravity. Goku trained in the room of spirit and time for a year, so he probably became 8 times as strong.)

-During the Boo Arc:
Base form: 560,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 28,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 56,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 224,000,000,000.
(In the 7 years between the Cell Arc and the Boo Arc, Goku was so strong that the training at normal gravity probably didn't increase his strength as much as it did before. Also, he tried to master the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 transformations, so while training those transformations, he probably didn't increase his strength. That's why I think Goku only became 10 times as strong in 7 years.)

-During Battle of Gods:
Base form: 2,800,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 140,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 280,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 1,120,000,000,000.
(In the 5 years between the Boo Arc and Battle of Gods, Goku spent a lot of time with his family, so I think he didn't train as much as he usually did, so I think he only got 5 times as strong.)

-After eating a Senzu Bean during Battle of Gods:
Base form: 3,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 150,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 300,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 1,200,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan God: 15,000,000,000,000.
(I think that Goku, while not injured too badly after he first fought Beerus, did get a little boost in strength, because he was knocked out. I think that a Super Saiyan God transformation, while it's power level can't be read, would have a power that is 5000 times the character's base form's power.)

-After absorbing the Super Saiyan God transformation:
Base form: 13,500,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 675,000,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 1,350,000,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 5,400,000,000,000,000.
(Goku fought almost as well in his base form against Beerus as he did in his Super Saiyan God form, because he absorbed the transformation's power. I think he absorbed about 90% of the transformation's power.)

These are the power levels that I think Goku has after the Freeza Arc. Maybe I will post what I think Goku's power is during Dragon Ball GT some other time. Also, I will probably post some other characters' power levels some other time.

Your numbers don't work due to Beerus commenting on Goku still needing Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza. Goku and Kaio don't deny nor disagree with Beerus's statement so BOG Base Goku is under 120 million. There is absolutely no way he can be 2.8 billion base.

Personally I'd put Goku at a even 100 million base. But even if he was 119 million base that would mean -

SSJ1 - 5.9 Billion

SSJ2 - 11.9 Billion

SSJ3 - 47 Billion

So to sum up, with official material there is absolutely no logical or reasonable way for Goku to be in the billions range in base form.

[DragonBallFan8001]

I like them. I do wonder though why you have Goku's base power so high in Buu Saga and BOG (due to Berrus' comment on him being weaker than Freeza).

Oh, I forgot that was mentioned. I guess the training at normal gravity between the Cell and Boo Arc was so easy for Goku that he only doubled his strength.

Also, I guess due to spending time with his family inbetween the Boo Arc and Battle of Gods, he hardly increased his strength.

I think this would make his power levels:

-During the Boo Arc:
Base form: 112,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 5,600,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 11,200,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 44,800,000,000.

-During Battle of Gods:
Base form: 115,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 5,750,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 11,500,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 46,000,000,000.

-After eating a Senzu Bean during Battle of Gods:
Base form: 118,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 5,900,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 11,800,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 47,200,000,000.
Super Saiyan God: 590,000,000,000.

-After absorbing the Super Saiyan God transformation:
Base form: 531,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan: 26,550,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2: 53,100,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 3: 212,400,000,000,000.

Thanks for pointing out the mistake I made!
I think it's a little odd that Goku only managed to double his strength in 7 years, after the huge power boosts he's had earlier in the series, but these power levels (with Goku only twice as strong in the Boo Arc as in the Cell Arc) do make a lot more sense. Thanks!

[KentalSSJ6]

Since when does eating a Senzu give someone a PL boost of 3 million?

[DragonBallFan8001]

Since when does eating a Senzu give someone a PL boost of 3 million?

The Zekai boost a Saiyan receives isn't a set number, it's a percentage of their own power. The percentage depends on how badly injured the Saiyan is. In the Freeza Arc, Vegeta went from a power level of only a few hundred thousand to a power level of over two million, just by being healed after Kuririn blasted him. He became at least four times as strong from one Zenkai boost, meaning an increase in power of over 400%! Goku was not fatally injured in the first fight against Beerus, but was knocked out and had some minor injuries, so a Zenkai boost between 2 and 3% is quite likely, I think.

[KentalSSJ6]

Since when does eating a Senzu give someone a PL boost of 3 million?

The Zekai boost a Saiyan receives isn't a set number, it's a percentage of their own power. The percentage depends on how badly injured the Saiyan is. In the Freeza Arc, Vegeta went from a power level of only a few hundred thousand to a power level of over two million, just by being healed after Kuririn blasted him. He became at least four times as strong from one Zenkai boost, meaning an increase in power of over 400%! Goku was not fatally injured in the first fight against Beerus, but was knocked out and had some minor injuries, so a Zenkai boost between 2 and 3% is quite likely, I think.

Zenkai stop after Super Saiyan is achieved. That or they become so small they aren't even noticeable so if Goku got a Zenkai after his trouncing from Beerus, it would be more around a increase of 5 or 10, not a whopping 3 million.

[DragonBallFan8001]

Since when does eating a Senzu give someone a PL boost of 3 million?

The Zekai boost a Saiyan receives isn't a set number, it's a percentage of their own power. The percentage depends on how badly injured the Saiyan is. In the Freeza Arc, Vegeta went from a power level of only a few hundred thousand to a power level of over two million, just by being healed after Kuririn blasted him. He became at least four times as strong from one Zenkai boost, meaning an increase in power of over 400%! Goku was not fatally injured in the first fight against Beerus, but was knocked out and had some minor injuries, so a Zenkai boost between 2 and 3% is quite likely, I think.

Zenkai stop after Super Saiyan is achieved. That or they become so small they aren't even noticeable so if Goku got a Zenkai after his trouncing from Beerus, it would be more around a increase of 5 or 10, not a whopping 3 million.

I don't think it was ever mentioned that Zenkai boosts stop after a character has the ability to become a Super Saiyan. There weren't any instances after the Freeza Arc where a character gets healed and then fights an opponent again without also training first, so there isn't any proof that Zenkai boosts stopped.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

According to Daizenshuu 7:

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

(Note: The ending paragraph seems to mostly be a way of explaining why no battle powers are available after the battle with Freeza, saying that past this point battle powers become simply immeasurable. The way the note about near-death power-ups becoming “small” is phrased in Japanese (sukunakunatta), it could either mean that they became small, infrequent, or simply insufficient.)

However, Toriyama seems to think otherwise:

I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

[DragonBallFan8001]

According to Daizenshuu 7:

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

(Note: The ending paragraph seems to mostly be a way of explaining why no battle powers are available after the battle with Freeza, saying that past this point battle powers become simply immeasurable. The way the note about near-death power-ups becoming “small” is phrased in Japanese (sukunakunatta), it could either mean that they became small, infrequent, or simply insufficient.)

However, Toriyama seems to think otherwise:

I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

I think that the Zenkai boosts were insufficient, rather than small or infrequent, because, for example, while Vegeta and Trunks were injured in the Cell Arc, they weren't fatally injured, so the Zenkai boost they received, while still probably a 3 to 5% increase in power, was not enough to increase their power level above that of the Androids and Cell. They still needed to train in the room of spirit and time.

[RandomGuy96]

So here's something I was recently made aware of: in the anime (and only the anime, from what I can tell), Goku states that the dance fusion is more powerful than Namekian fusion. Meaning that either one or both of the following statements are true:

A. Gotenks is even more ridiculously stronger than Goku than is commonly thought.
B. Piccolo somehow jumped to over one hundred thousand in one week. The same ridiculous training gains should also apply to the humans.

From what I recall, Piccolo explains his fusion process with Nail, then Goku says that the fusion dance works differently in which instead of one participant's body being the host, it forms an entirely new being. Then Piccolo says that the end result is the same, that the two combine and all that's left is one with a great amount of power. But even then, no one knew how powerful the fusion dance would be. I can't recall though whether Goku says that the fusion dance is stronger (though I think it is), but that it works differently. That's just from what I remember.

Goku says that the fusion dance is "even more awesome" than Namekian fusion, right before talking about how strong it is. It seems pretty obvious that dance fusion > Namekian fusion from that scene.