Daizenshuu - the Power Levels contradict the Manga.

[RandomGuy96]

Meh, it always annoyed me, they didn't clearly differentiate between one's full power and full power blast like with Gohan's Masenko or the 910 reading of Goku at the 23rd Tournment in the Weekly Jump scan.

And Nappa at 4,000 was also one, I used to argue against, but then I started to convince myself, it might be conceivable.
Even then with my own logic, it would require the assumption, that Goku was not putting in full effort after initially powering up.
It could make sense, that he was drawing out the battle to get the point across, he was fighting for his friends("this one's for Yamcha!" etc.).
There was also a line by Vegeta in the viz version(or maybe I'm mixing it up with a crappy scanlation?), before Nappa cooled down, that Goku still had power in reserve or something like that, but I don't know, if it was in the original.

As far as DannyDBZfanforever's reasons for disregarding them, well I think people have already given good answers to those, namely the whole Cell's BP only increases by 5/human is entirely conjecture.

I don't think that's even necessary. Some characters are just more durable than others, and sometimes "plot" is used to explain why someone doesn't instantly die when they should. Even if one were to put Nappa at, say, 7,500 instead of 4,000, they'd still face the issue of why he was hurt by attacks from Gohan at all that didn't take him by surprise, but then managed to survive hits from ~8,000 Goku not two minutes later.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Zarbon is 96% of Vegeta. You seriously don't consider that rivaling? I consider rivaling to be any difference small enough that the two fighters are in the same general league and can actually fight each other, and the weaker one can catch up relatively quickly if the stronger one is not careful.

The fight between Vegeta & Zarbon wasn't an even fight by any means, it was completely one sided in Vegeta's favor.

You keep saying that he's "definitely not 4,000", but we plainly saw that he was far inferior to a battle power of 5,000. Plus, ~2,800 attacks could hurt him, and a fighter at 8,000 makes him look like a complete joke.

He was inferior to Goku at 5.000 when he was blinded from his anger. When he calmed down, he could fight evenly with Goku at 8.000, and both Goku & Vegeta said that it would be a long fight.

[RandomGuy96]

The fight between Vegeta & Zarbon wasn't an even fight by any means, it was completely one sided in Vegeta's favor.

Because Zarbon is a shitty fighter. We've seen fights at much larger gaps in power be much closer than this, unless you seriously believe that being barely four percent weaker than someone will always make a fight completely one-sided.

He was inferior to Goku at 5.000 when he was blinded from his anger. When he calmed down, he could fight evenly with Goku at 8.000, and both Goku & Vegeta said that it would be a long fight.

He was completely calm, even smug, when he failed to hit ~5,000 Goku. A calmed down Nappa still couldn't lay a single hit on ~8,000 Goku, and had his strongest attack effortlessly countered at point blank range. Vegeta said to Nappa that he might be able to win, but it seems pretty clear to me he was either bullshitting or didn't believe Goku's reading, given that he doesn't contradict Nappa saying that the scouter must be broken, breaks the scouter himself, and calls Goku "unbelievable" after the latter demonstrates his superiority to Nappa. Goku only said Nappa would take a long time to put down because he was stupidly durable.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It wasn't effortlessly countered. Goku was wondering why Nappa took no damage from the Kamehameha, while also saying he would've been in trouble if the attack hit him.

So, either Nappa's attack was an amplified one beyond his natural power or his overall power was higher than before.

[RandomGuy96]

It wasn't effortlessly countered. Goku was wondering why Nappa took no damage from the Kamehameha, while also saying he would've been in trouble if the attack hit him.

So, either Nappa's attack was an amplified one beyond his natural power or his overall power was higher than before.

Since Nappa cannot change his battle power, the first option must be true. It seemed pretty effortless; the blast had already been launched at him at near point-blank range before he noticed it and launched his own blast to counter. The Kamehameha he used wasn't charged or anything, and Nappa is the only who "lost" the struggle and was hit, not Goku. This feat leaves Nappa completely stunned and stuck with a "oh shit" face.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We've seen fights at much larger gaps in power be much closer than this

Like?

He was completely calm, even smug, when he failed to hit ~5,000 Goku.

He wasn't fighting seriously there.

A calmed down Nappa still couldn't lay a single hit on ~8,000 Goku, and had his strongest attack effortlessly countered at point blank range.

The same applies to Goku, only that, Goku didn't use his strongest attack, but it was a powerful one.

Vegeta said to Nappa that he might be able to win, but it seems pretty clear to me he was either bullshitting or didn't believe Goku's reading, given that he doesn't contradict Nappa saying that the scouter must be broken, breaks the scouter himself, and calls Goku "unbelievable" after the latter demonstrates his superiority to Nappa. Goku only said Nappa would take a long time to put down because he was stupidly durable.

But Nappa didn't only display high durability, he also displayed strength & speed matching to that of Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Like?

Goku vs Freeza, for one. Vegeta vs Recoome is another. Zarbon is just not a good fighter, to that point that even when he had practically the same battle power as Vegeta he was pwned. He may have even been stronger in their final encounter.

He wasn't fighting seriously there.

I don't see how "not being serious" somehow translates to "magically appears to be way weaker and can't even follow the movements of someone about half his strength and speed".

The same applies to Goku, only that, Goku didn't use his strongest attack, but it was a powerful one.

Apparently, you missed the several pages where Goku beat the shit out of Nappa.

A powerful one? It was an uncharged reactionary Kamehameha only intended to stop Nappa's attack, it's not comparable to him having his ultimate technique bounced back at point blank effortlessly. Krillin managed to dodge hits from Nappa... and actually land some, too.

But Nappa didn't only display high durability, he also displayed strength & speed matching to that of Goku.

Dodging one hit from Goku is not displaying speed on par with his, especially when he looks like he's using a lot of effort to do just that, and is sweating bullets after 2-3 panels of fighting right after that, while Goku is completely calm and not even breathing hard. If his speed was on par with Goku's, he'd at least manage to touch him, and if his power was on par, his greatest technique wouldn't have been so worthless. Nappa himself was surprised by Goku countering it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku vs Freeza, for one.

Doesn't count, they were both injured from before, so they could be closer in power because of that.

I don't see how "not being serious" somehow translates to "magically appears to be way weaker and can't even follow the movements of someone about half his strength and speed".

But after he got serious & calmed down, he could follow & counter his movements just fine.

Apparently, you missed the several pages where Goku beat the shit out of Nappa.

He wasn't calm back then.

A powerful one? It was an uncharged reactionary Kamehameha only intended to stop Nappa's attack, it's not comparable to him having his ultimate technique bounced back at point blank effortlessly. Krillin managed to dodge hits from Nappa... and actually land some, too.

Kamehameha is a powerful technique.

Dodging one hit from Goku is not displaying speed on par with his, especially when he looks like he's using a lot of effort to do just that, and is sweating bullets after 2-3 panels of fighting right after that, while Goku is completely calm and not even breathing hard. If his speed was on par with Goku's, he'd at least manage to touch him, and if his power was on par, his greatest technique wouldn't have been so worthless. Nappa himself was surprised by Goku countering it.

I don't think that Nappa is as strong as Goku, I think that he is very close though. The fight we see after he gets serious & calms down, and the statements from both Goku & Vegeta, don't match with Nappa having a BP of 4.000. Because such a fight with a x2 gap has never happened before, and x2 is a huge gap.

[RandomGuy96]

Doesn't count, they were both injured from before, so they could be closer in power because of that.

Nope. Freeza specifically said he was using 100% of his power, and nothing suggests that Goku was not at full power. The images in both the Daizenshuu and SEG battle power lists also specifically credit the 150 million number to the Goku that fought Freeza (he's bloodied, has his shirt destroyed, is angry, and is assuming the same stance he did on Namek).

He wasn't calm back then.

So?

But after he got serious & calmed down, he could follow & counter his movements just fine.

He could dodge a hit from Goku, but he still could not hit Goku himself. Being calm does not mean he's any faster, but a different state of mind could conceivably help him on the defense.

Kamehameha is a powerful technique.

Not always. Yamcha's couldn't even kill someone weaker than him. I doubt that Goku's Kamehameha here was very strong at all, given he fired it instantly without charging and focusing his ki.

I don't think that Nappa is as strong as Goku, I think that he is very close though. The fight we see after he gets serious & calms down, and the statements from both Goku & Vegeta, don't match with Nappa having a BP of 4.000. Because such a fight with a x2 gap has never happened before, and x2 is a huge gap.

What fight? They go at it for like three panels before Nappa fires the blast. Goku easily counters it, Nappa looks scared shitless, then Vegeta calls Goku unbelievable and calls off the fight. You can't focus on the 2-3 panels where Nappa didn't look like a little girl while ignoring everything else that happened, such as Goku dominating him and the Earthlings doing decently against him.

[DieHard]

First of all ,the example provided in the opening post is awful.That said i agree that the daizenshuu contradicts the manga,,probably.Just like the manga is already full of plot -holes on its own.Whats the big deal? ?

[miguelnuva1]

What official rule is it that says Nappa can't be 4000 versus over 8000 Goku?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nope. Freeza specifically said he was using 100% of his power, and nothing suggests that Goku was not at full power. The images in both the Daizenshuu and SEG battle power lists also specifically credit the 150 million number to the Goku that fought Freeza (he's bloodied, has his shirt destroyed, is angry, and is assuming the same stance he did on Namek).

The guidebooks never listed the BPs of someone when he is suppressed or weakened, they are always talking about their full power.

So?

It made a huge difference in their fight.

He could dodge a hit from Goku, but he still could not hit Goku himself. Being calm does not mean he's any faster, but a different state of mind could conceivably help him on the defense.

But Goku couldn't hit him as well.

What fight? They go at it for like three panels before Nappa fires the blast. Goku easily counters it, Nappa looks scared shitless, then Vegeta calls Goku unbelievable and calls off the fight. You can't focus on the 2-3 panels where Nappa didn't look like a little girl while ignoring everything else that happened, such as Goku dominating him and the Earthlings doing decently against him.

In the first part of their fight, Nappa couldn't accept that he was getting beaten by a low-class, and he was fighting like shit. In the second part of their fight, Nappa calmed down & got serious, fighting evenly with Goku to the point that neither of them could land a hit on each other, with Goku saying that Nappa's strongest attack could have been dangerous for him, and that their fight could take a while. Nappa does look like he is at 4.000 in the first part, but he definitely doesn't look like it in the second part.

What official rule is it that says Nappa can't be 4000 versus over 8000 Goku?

They had an even fight with a x2 difference.

[RandomGuy96]

The guidebooks never listed the BPs of someone when he is suppressed or weakened, they are always talking about their full power.

Nor have the Daizenshuu ever given battle power numbers to characters who never displayed said power (Namek Goku would count for this, as the very next time we see him he has powered up).

And? The images still clearly depict what you're saying are weakened versions. You and I both know that those levels were intended to represent the powers at play in the battle, not hypothetical battle powers that were never actually shown. It also makes no sense that Goku would magically get, say, 90% of his ki refilled, but that last little bit just doesn't come back.

It made a huge difference in their fight.

It didn't magically make him weaker... and it wasn't really a huge difference. And he was pretty much calm at first, in a smug and cocky kind of way.

But Goku couldn't hit him as well

I recall Goku hitting him many times. That's the reason Nappa got so pissed.

In the first part of their fight, Nappa couldn't accept that he was getting beaten by a low-class, and he was fighting like shit. In the second part of their fight, Nappa calmed down & got serious, fighting evenly with Goku to the point that neither of them could land a hit on each other, with Goku saying that Nappa's strongest attack could have been dangerous for him, and that their fight could take a while. Nappa does look like he is at 4.000 in the first part, but he definitely doesn't look like it in the second part.

I'd agree with you if Nappa actually managed anything against Goku. As it stands, managing to dodge ONE hit and ALMOST doing some damage against someone by firing your most powerful attack at them at point blank range is not enough to override his shitty performance up to that point (Krillin has essentially the same feats against Nappa, btw). Especially since his performance in this supposedly even battle was also pretty shitty: he was sweating bullets after his brief, three panel exchange with Goku, while the latter wasn't even breathing hard and was treating Nappa like a child, and his strongest attack was outright countered at point blank range by a quick reactionary blast from Goku. That is not something you should be able to do to someone on par with yourself. The Daizenshuu 2 even says that Nappa "was powerless against Goku" and "[Goku] treats Nappa like a child".

Someone at 7-8 thousand would also have absolutely no trouble hitting someone suppressed to 5,000, wouldn't be unable to hit a 1,770 fighter, and wouldn't be hurt by attacks from a 2,800 fighter. Also, Tenshinhan, Gohan, and the others wouldn't all be able to survive hits from him.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I think the absorbing humans thing is a plot hole. Anyway I sometimes take the Daizenshuu stuff with a grain of salt, but I see nothing that inconsistent about the power levels for Freeza and Goku at the end of their fight.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I recall Goku hitting him many times. That's the reason Nappa got so pissed.

He certainly didn't hit Nappa when he calmed down.

I'd agree with you if Nappa actually managed anything against Goku. As it stands, managing to dodge ONE hit and ALMOST doing some damage against someone by firing your most powerful attack at them at point blank range is not enough to override his shitty performance up to that point (Krillin has essentially the same feats against Nappa, btw).

Krillin was down in one attack. The fact that he actually dodged the blast and was taken out by the explosion is enough to show Nappa's superiority there. It's funny because Krillin's feats are more impressive than Piccolo's, and he's much weaker.

Especially since his performance in this supposedly even battle was also pretty shitty: he was sweating bullets after his brief, three panel exchange with Goku, while the latter wasn't even breathing hard and was treating Nappa like a child, and his strongest attack was outright countered at point blank range by a quick reactionary blast from Goku.

Well, I believe Nappa was putting in more effort during the duel, so that would explain the sweat. And it was very impressive considering how he was fighting a few pages before.

That is not something you should be able to do to someone on par with yourself. The Daizenshuu 2 even says that Nappa "was powerless against Goku" and "[Goku] treats Nappa like a child".

I don't believe Nappa's durability should be enough to guide him against someone twice as strong as himself, either. From what we see, Kaioken was the only surefire way of defeating Nappa at that point. Goku stops Nappa's most powerful attack, but instead of being confident, he realizes how tough Nappa really is. Of course, this is enough to convince Vegeta that Nappa is finished--but Goku's reaction still speaks volumes.

It's pretty clear that Nappa was better than before, though. Goku didn't even bother dodging his Chi-attack earlier and thought he was joke. Once Nappa calmed down, Goku had to dodge that explosion attack--and he's even surprised by Nappa's speed as he flies up to him.

Someone at 7-8 thousand would also have absolutely no trouble hitting someone suppressed to 5,000, wouldn't be unable to hit a 1,770 fighter, and wouldn't be hurt by attacks from a 2,800 fighter. Also, Tenshinhan, Gohan, and the others wouldn't all be able to survive hits from him.

Nappa wasn't taking Goku seriously at that point.

Considering the fact that he knocked Tien's arm off with a mere hit, I don't doubt Nappa could've taken any of them out with ease if he wanted to. Piccolo was down after being elbowed, and he was the strongest one there. Going strictly by power, Piccolo should've been able to give Nappa a good fight alone. This doesn't go along with what we saw, as Piccolo wants no part of Nappa without a solid plan involving the others. Gohan's Masenko "stung" his arm, but it was easily deflected regardless.

[miguelnuva1]

[quote="RandomGuy96"

What official rule is it that says Nappa can't be 4000 versus over 8000 Goku?

They had an even fight with a x2 difference.

That's my point. When A.T. wrote the manga and started giving power levels I don't think he was a worried about the gaps between two fighters as much as he was telling a story.

[Tyro]

That's my point. When A.T. wrote the manga and started giving power levels I don't think he was a worried about the gaps between two fighters as much as he was telling a story.

Toriyama wasn't the person who said Nappa had a battle power of 4,000. That information first appeared in Weekly Shonen Jump #31, 1989. Half of them ended up reprinted in Daizenshuu #7.

But pretend that battle powers don't exist. You wouldn't expect 50% Freeza to be able to fight remotely evenly with SS Goku, would you? How about future SS Gohan trying to take on #17? 15 year old Goku vs. old Piccolo Daimao at full power? What makes Nappa so different that he can, even for a time, fight someone over twice as powerful as himself? Why does he do these things where it looks like he's powering up, and everyone is surprised to feel his and Vegeta's ki getting bigger?

Because he can power up and because his maximum output when he's calm and concentrating is closer to 8,000 than 4,000. What he and Vegeta can't do is suppress their ki. That's what Vegeta called "controlling his ki" on Namek.

[dbgtFO]

Because he can power up and because his maximum output when he's calm and concentrating is closer to 8,000 than 4,000. What he and Vegeta can't do is suppress their ki. That's what Vegeta called "controlling his ki" on Namek.

I don't really see the difference here, so let me ask you:
Do you think Vegeta and Nappa could change the readings on the scouter by powering up?

Vegeta told Kyui, that he learned the ability to do so from the Earthlings, so his and Nappa's powering up on Earth really should have been no different from their standing around powers for a scouter.
Now this has been a hotly debated topic for years and I personally feel, it's just contradictory writing by AT to suit the plot, but we shouldn't steer way off topic, so I just want to know, what you mean in the quoted part of your post.

[Tyro]

I don't really see the difference here, so let me ask you:
Do you think Vegeta and Nappa could change the readings on the scouter by powering up?

Vegeta told Kyui, that he learned the ability to do so from the Earthlings, so his and Nappa's powering up on Earth really should have been no different from their standing around powers for a scouter.
Now this has been a hotly debated topic for years and I personally feel, it's just contradictory writing by AT to suit the plot, but we shouldn't steer way off topic, so I just want to know, what you mean in the quoted part of your post.

Sorry about my wording. Let me try to be more clear.

Yes, I think that you would get several different readings of Vegeta and Nappa if you could look at them through the lens of a scouter during their attack on Earth. First, you'd get their "standing around, not exerting themselves" power level. We see several examples of this kind of power level in the series, the kind where you don't know how strong someone is because they're not moving with intent. For example, Gohan had to wait on top of some buildings because he couldn't sense Videl's ki (he didn't know where she we went), but as soon as she started fighting the car thieves, her ki flared up and Gohan immediately sensed her. Another example is Tenshinhan being in awe of SS Goku's presence on Earth, and he makes a comment "and he's not even fighting yet!" Apparently Vegeta's and Nappa's "standing around, doing nothing" battle powers are similar since it's only through Nappa's obedience that Piccolo deduces that Vegeta must be the stronger of the two.

Secondly, just look at all the dialogue when Vegeta and Nappa do that thing that looks like powering up. ...The characters talk about just like they, um, powered up!

Vegeta didn't tell Kui that he learned how to change the number on the scouter. What he was demonstrating was that he could "control his battle power" by suppressing his ki. Kui was stated several times to be approximately equal to Vegeta in terms of skill/battle strength. That is to say, Vegeta and Kui are both ~18,000. But when Kui taunts Vegeta on Namek he says that Vegeta must have been slacking off because his own battle power is now much greater than Vegeta's. Vegeta responds that he learned a trick on Earth, so he must have been talking about suppressing his battle power. He can now decrease or increase his ki at will, from being able to hide from the scouters to whatever his maximum output is at the time.

[dbgtFO]

Yes, I think that you would get several different readings of Vegeta and Nappa if you could look at them through the lens of a scouter during their attack on Earth. First, you'd get their "standing around, not exerting themselves" power level.[...]Apparently Vegeta's and Nappa's "standing around, doing nothing" battle powers are similar since it's only through Nappa's obedience that Piccolo deduces that Vegeta must be the stronger of the two.

I agree with you on Vegeta and Nappa changing their powers and maybe having about the same amount of power, when relaxed, at least from the earthlings' and Piccolo's point of view.
I think having the scouter register those different values would go against Vegeta's statement to Kyui however. I think it might be a contradiction, but more on that later.

Secondly, just look at all the dialogue when Vegeta and Nappa do that thing that looks like powering up. ...The characters talk about just like they, um, powered up!

Heh, you won't see me arguing against that.

Vegeta didn't tell Kui that he learned how to change the number on the scouter. What he was demonstrating was that he could "control his battle power" by suppressing his ki. Kui was stated several times to be approximately equal to Vegeta in terms of skill/battle strength. That is to say, Vegeta and Kui are both ~18,000. But when Kui taunts Vegeta on Namek he says that Vegeta must have been slacking off because his own battle power is now much greater than Vegeta's. Vegeta responds that he learned a trick on Earth, so he must have been talking about suppressing his battle power. He can now decrease or increase his ki at will, from being able to hide from the scouters to whatever his maximum output is at the time.

Okay, so above you said, that Vegeta and Nappa's power would also register differently on a scouter, when being relaxed or when powering up.
But if it was normal, that a fighter could power up like Nappa and Vegeta did on Earth and register different values on the scouter, shouldn't Kyui be aware, that the reading he was getting might not be Vegeta's full power, because he was just standing there?
This is why don't really see the difference you are trying to establish between, what Vegeta and Nappa were doing on Earth and what Vegeta started doing on Namek.
Like Goku, Vegeta could have registered a power of 5,000 or even lower than that, if we are strictly following the official values, but then power up and reach 18,000 on the scouter, because like Goku he went from doing nothing to powering up, yet there is supposed to be a difference?

I think by all the statements, implications and such that a scouter reads your max value, unless you are suppressing it or are in a restricted form. With charged up attacks you can go past that value like Goku, Piccolo and Gohan were all shown doing.
Vegeta according to himself learned it from the earthlings, so everything he and Nappa did by the logic of his own words, really shouldn't have been registering different values on the scouter like Goku and Gohan did except for perhaps Vegeta's Galick Gun.

I think Toriyama made it a point to establish a difference between people who couldn't change their battle power and those who could in the Freeza Arc:
Dodoria, Zarbon(except for his transformation), Guldo, Recoome, Jheese and Butta don't power up like Nappa and Vegeta did on Earth, because they can't change their powers unlike Ginyu & Freeza* and the protagonists.
It's really confusing and not properly explained especially in regards to Vegeta and Nappa on Earth, which seems like a contradiction to what comes later, but it is what is.
I think it's a feature of Toriyama's writing style.
*

Spoiler:

Weirdly enough Freeza powered up in his first form, but it's only, when he powered up in his second form, that Vegeta realized he could do so. I used to use this as evidence of there being a difference between, what Nappa and Vegeta were doing and what Goku and co. were doing

Hopefully this post won't be confusing
I have tried my best to explain, why I don't really see the difference in the two methods of "power management" you described.